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On January 29 2025 17:01 iFU.pauline wrote:
KesPa era was way more competitive than ASL, it is not even comparable, now ex-pro are old and fat just fucking around with making a living more a priority than winning. Who cares what Soulkey does, everybody has retired from the game anyway. It is like saying, am I the goat of a country where no one is left playing?
But following that logic no one should care what Serral does in SC2 either, since pro scene there is mostly dead, too? Yet people praise him.
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On January 30 2025 02:37 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2025 20:44 iFU.pauline wrote:On January 29 2025 19:10 kogeT wrote:
It has also been said by many pros, with current game knowledge they would win 100% of games vs "peak kespa pros". That argument is enough.
There was a translated video from Zero posted years ago on TL with a similar debate, Zero was very straightforward about it. Acknowledging that strategically the game improved but as a player they were much less performant with a volume practice too low to even compare, adding that even if they would be outdated on the strat aspect kespa players would quickly adapt and it would be the end of it, and I don't think we are talking about years of adaptation here. So assuming they would win 100% of games vs peak kespa pro (which I highly doubt for mirror matches but that's all speculation from my part), the question is for how long they would win? 3 months? 6 months at best? Regardless that is beside the point of this thread, the pool players now is too small with little incentive for winning, it is an entirely different eco-system, the only reason why you could see players like Soulkey shines nowadays is exactly because it is not the Kespa era anymore. Flash said something along the lines of it would take it would take his old kespa peak self about 2 weeks to adapt and then he would never lose a game against his current self again.
That's somewhat particularly specific to him given his wrists injuries.
But yea if there was still a thriving pro-house scene like kespa (ideally something healthier than that though) where young kids were grinding away nonstop at BW with couches etc there's no doubt that we'd have several new crops of players that would have surpassed the current players we have right now already. Instead they are playing SC2 or League or something else though.
Even with the stamina, speed and dedication of teenage youth, it still takes 1000s of hours of practice to get to where current pros are. That's why so few amateurs years younger can even come close to them.
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On January 29 2025 17:54 Freezard wrote:
Soulkey has godlike macro and game knowledge but there's nothing as powerful as muta micro, and Jaedong had the best there ever was (along with best ling micro), so I'm going to say him.
Honestly when I look back on old kespa jaedong games, his muta micro isn't nearly as impressive and current pros. It might be due to higher turn rate brought by remastered today though?
But the evolution of muta micro tactics and counter muta tactics have evolved SO MUCH in the last 12 years it's crazy. If you plopped any top zerg from today (JD, zero, soulkey, soma) into 2010-2012 kespa they would absolutely destroy every terran with just mutas.
Zergs today almost always fend off big bio balls with JUST a group of mutas micro'd well, which is just something they never really did back in kespa days (instead they would only harass untill lurkers/sunkens were out). Modern terrans are so much better at controlling their bio groups vs mutas as well, and optimizing turret placements.
I'm not taking anything away from kespa JD, he was amazing and soo good at muta control. But just saying that the strategy and control has gotten better by players on both sides by so much in the last 12 years.
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On January 30 2025 03:56 SiarX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2025 17:01 iFU.pauline wrote:
KesPa era was way more competitive than ASL, it is not even comparable, now ex-pro are old and fat just fucking around with making a living more a priority than winning. Who cares what Soulkey does, everybody has retired from the game anyway. It is like saying, am I the goat of a country where no one is left playing? But following that logic no one should care what Serral does in SC2 either, since pro scene there is mostly dead, too? Yet people praise him.
Take a look at the SC2 GOAT thread and they are having this exact discussion about Serral.
On January 30 2025 04:01 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2025 02:37 Miragee wrote:On January 29 2025 20:44 iFU.pauline wrote:On January 29 2025 19:10 kogeT wrote:
It has also been said by many pros, with current game knowledge they would win 100% of games vs "peak kespa pros". That argument is enough.
There was a translated video from Zero posted years ago on TL with a similar debate, Zero was very straightforward about it. Acknowledging that strategically the game improved but as a player they were much less performant with a volume practice too low to even compare, adding that even if they would be outdated on the strat aspect kespa players would quickly adapt and it would be the end of it, and I don't think we are talking about years of adaptation here. So assuming they would win 100% of games vs peak kespa pro (which I highly doubt for mirror matches but that's all speculation from my part), the question is for how long they would win? 3 months? 6 months at best? Regardless that is beside the point of this thread, the pool players now is too small with little incentive for winning, it is an entirely different eco-system, the only reason why you could see players like Soulkey shines nowadays is exactly because it is not the Kespa era anymore. Flash said something along the lines of it would take it would take his old kespa peak self about 2 weeks to adapt and then he would never lose a game against his current self again. That's somewhat particularly specific to him given his wrists injuries. But yea if there was still a thriving pro-house scene like kespa (ideally something healthier than that though) where young kids were grinding away nonstop at BW with couches etc there's no doubt that we'd have several new crops of players that would have surpassed the current players we have right now already. Instead they are playing SC2 or League or something else though. Even with the stamina, speed and dedication of teenage youth, it still takes 1000s of hours of practice to get to where current pros are. That's why so few amateurs years younger can even come close to them.
I'm fairly sure he wasn't talking about wrist injuries but his mechanical prowess vs the game knowledge that has evolved since then. I wouldn't take the "2 weeks" statement at face value but a statement like that from someone who has arguable the best game knowledge out of any BW player ever surely has some weight, at least to me.
On January 30 2025 04:09 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2025 17:54 Freezard wrote:
Soulkey has godlike macro and game knowledge but there's nothing as powerful as muta micro, and Jaedong had the best there ever was (along with best ling micro), so I'm going to say him. Honestly when I look back on old kespa jaedong games, his muta micro isn't nearly as impressive and current pros. It might be due to higher turn rate brought by remastered today though? But the evolution of muta micro tactics and counter muta tactics have evolved SO MUCH in the last 12 years it's crazy. If you plopped any top zerg from today (JD, zero, soulkey, soma) into 2010-2012 kespa they would absolutely destroy every terran with just mutas. Zergs today almost always fend off big bio balls with JUST a group of mutas micro'd well, which is just something they never really did back in kespa days (instead they would only harass untill lurkers/sunkens were out). Modern terrans are so much better at controlling their bio groups vs mutas as well, and optimizing turret placements. I'm not taking anything away from kespa JD, he was amazing and soo good at muta control. But just saying that the strategy and control has gotten better by players on both sides by so much in the last 12 years.
Turn-rate plays a role I think. But I would also argue that lower multitasking of current players plays a role. This is my personal observation and I might be wrong of course but I feel like players today are not as quick in their response on their M&M anymore. Muta micro gets that much easier if the terran only slacks for a fraction of a second on stim or M&M movement. This is also true for how they move across the map. One of the main reasons why Flash's M&M (and of some other players such as Light) were almost never stopped by a group of mutas, was how quickly they moved across the map. Staying on top of your M&M with stim, anticipation moves against mutas, target firing while keeping up with your macro takes some serious multitasking and decisive acting. Some of that has been lost in the ASL era and it makes it much easier for a zerg to pick appart M&M with mutas.
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On January 30 2025 04:09 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2025 17:54 Freezard wrote:
Soulkey has godlike macro and game knowledge but there's nothing as powerful as muta micro, and Jaedong had the best there ever was (along with best ling micro), so I'm going to say him. If you plopped any top zerg from today (JD, zero, soulkey, soma) into 2010-2012 kespa they would absolutely destroy every terran with just mutas.
OK then, someone ask an AI to make a game with 2025 JD vs 2010 Light and let's see who gets destroyed. Anyway, to easier see the difference you should watch ZvZ games instead since that matchup is entirely micro based. JD's control nowadays is depressing to say the least, and it's not just him. Zergs can barely kill scourges anymore without fumbling their mutas, and lings are bleeding off to the left and right. JD dominated ZvZ with his 80% win rate over hundreds of games for a reason, controlling individual lings like a machine and he would almost never lose a muta war. Today he's at what, 30%? And it's not because the strategies evolved and people are doing proxy 11 hatch into 12 hatches, or because he's facing stronger ZvZ players. He's just far from his peak and he has said that himself in interviews multiple times.
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I don't think the "we were better in kespa days" holds as much truth as the players themselves think it does. Many case studies and many professional musicians have shown that while not practicing at all does deteriorate skill, maintaining a minimum of activity, which is different per individual, is in most cases enough to maintain nearly all skill. But in order to improve "more" practice is required.
But scientific studies have also shown that it doesn't always have to be actually playing to improve at playing an instrument, or a sport. There is something called Phantom Practice where an expert individual can continue to improve without actually playing their instrument, or engaging in their sport. They can improve purely through visualization methods. There's a famous case in the professional music industry where fusion-jazz drummer Larnell Lewis learned to play an entire album by the Band Snarky Puppy on a plane flight from New York to Amsterdam through visualization. Once arrived he had to immediately jump into recording to fill in for a drummer that had Visa issues. It was a legitimately legendary recording.
Age specifically also does not affect fine motor neurons all that much until the late 40s, which is an argument many throw around to claim players are worse because they are older. It is specifically the large muscle's motor neurons intended for larger movements that start to degrade starting the mid 30s. But we use none of the large muscle's motor neurons in Starcraft. It is all fine motor neurons that are at work. Reaction speed however, does gradually start to decline in the late 20s, but science has shown the decrease is almost unnoticeable until the early 40s. Well trained individuals can even slow down the process of loss of reflex speed. In addition the importance of reflex speed is HIGHLY OVERSTATED in Starcraft. It is actually one of the few games where reaction speed is not as important as in shooters or fighter games. And even in Fighter games we see 30+ year olds still winning championships.
I've more or less kept track of pro player activity on a daily basis and roughly know how active most pros are. Many I often hear from people here to not be active at all, are actually much more active than people think. They are also often much more cerebral players who seem to focus a lot more on thinking about the game than playing the game. There are PLENTY of players who grind multiple hundreds of ladder games for mechanics, and over a hundred documented games on Eloboard, and also non-documented games every month, yet they are rarely the people at the top. Its all about "How" they prepare, not about "how much".
But to cycle back to the start of my post. Not practicing will after X amount of time lead to degradation of skill. Practicing some will for most prevent degradation but not facilitate growth. Higher volume quality practice will lead to growth. High volume low quality practice likely won't result in meaningful growth because it often just reinforces existing behavior.
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On January 30 2025 09:06 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
I don't think the "we were better in kespa days" holds as much truth as the players themselves think it does.
The KeSPA era is overrated in several dimensions, some of which are probably captured by your arguments, although I have other reasons as well.
On other hand, there is one HUGE reason why the KeSPA era had much tougher competition than the current era. The KeSPA era had a constant stream of new talent coming into an already much larger player pool. For putting achievements in context, this is the end of the argument.
As for who would win in a Space Jam style match for the survival of humanity, such time travel questions are fun but meaningless because each person applies his own what-ifs to the thought experiment.
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Lot of mental gymnastics here. I think the pros meant that if they had the time and energy they had before, they know they would be better than they are now. We are talking about the pros, but we are going to doubt their self-awareness? Tons of play time is super important if you are going to be at the top of anything. It is required for flow state and optimal performance. Name me one GOAT in anything who didn't put the time in as much as or more than anybody else. It's not fair to compare present eras with past, because the present is built on the past achievements. Do you think young BoxeR or NaDa, if they were put in SC today, wouldn't be able to understand the meta and absolutely smoke everyone, because of their raw talents and because they're fucking 18? When you are young, you can handle the workload. Sure, the pros don't play that much anymore and still are doing amazing things, because they've already put in the work.
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There's so much discussion about bonjwa and GOATs on foreign side when in Korean side, it's mostly dismissal along lines of "it doesn't count because there's much less competition and new blood"
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I always think that some people get it wrong when they translate G(reatest)OAT as B(est)OAT. In absolute terms, those who come later will oftentimes (almost inevitably) be better players in many ways (see all kinds of sports), surely they can be the BOAT. But you achieve a claim to the title of GOAT by being the undisputed dominator at a golden era when it counts, when legends are made.
I also think that the notion that there is just one GOAT is a fallacy. It seems logical at first glance that there has to be just one ("One has to be the greatest, right? That's what greatest means.") but that's just our thinking, our language fooling us. + Show Spoiler +(We force our concept of a superlative onto reality. Further reading: Kant or Wittgenstein etc.)
All this "who's the one GOAT" is banter for our amusement.
+ Show Spoiler +Flash is the only real GOAT btw.
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Apart from all that is already said in regards to different eras, I like to enjoy being romantic about long-past competition.
Jaedong had a magic and an awe about him. Soulkey is the peak of modernized, sophisticated zerg play, but I like my tinted glasses and I always loved the vibe that JD brought. The death-stare and impeccable intuition and winning through rage and sheer force of will against a bad coinflip in the mirror or the most meticulously crafted terran push.
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I think JD would definitelly be my pick for the COAT, the cutest of all time.
+ Show Spoiler +Sorry, Bisu stans. Not even close.
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On January 29 2025 21:54 Bonyth wrote:
Side note: if a progamer said something, it doesn't have to be the absolute truth
I agree with that statement, it is just that the arguments put forward to me are not valid to contradict Zero's feedback as an ex-pro. Since you were bringing up the time it takes to level up, I would add that once the knowledge is recorded, a learner doesn't have to go through all the grinding process of tries and fails to generate that knowledge, he can copy and reproduce it just like a new mathematic formulae. And with the volume of practice and pro environment they had back in the day, that process would be "quick" as stated by ZerO. This is how I understood it.
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On January 30 2025 16:59 jinjin5000 wrote:
There's so much discussion about bonjwa and GOATs on foreign side when in Korean side, it's mostly dismissal along lines of "it doesn't count because there's much less competition and new blood"
This really is it. Like many have said, the new players will generally evolve to be better than the old players in an active sport&esport. What makes someone great is winning and staying at the top despite hordes of players coming to take your job, because it implies that you are also constantly evolving your game and not falling off. If it's always the same people playing each other, of course the ones that win will likely win the next tournaments or competitions too.
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On January 30 2025 20:30 Akio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2025 16:59 jinjin5000 wrote:
There's so much discussion about bonjwa and GOATs on foreign side when in Korean side, it's mostly dismissal along lines of "it doesn't count because there's much less competition and new blood" This really is it. Like many have said, the new players will generally evolve to be better than the old players in an active sport&esport. What makes someone great is winning and staying at the top despite hordes of players coming to take your job, because it implies that you are also constantly evolving your game and not falling off. If it's always the same people playing each other, of course the ones that win will likely win the next tournaments or competitions too.
All good, but the topic is not about "if younger players could catch up to current pros", but about "higher peak as a Zerg player". In my view, there should be no debate that current Soulkey (and other pros) are on overall way higher level/peak than Kespa players.
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On January 30 2025 21:51 kogeT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2025 20:30 Akio wrote:On January 30 2025 16:59 jinjin5000 wrote:
There's so much discussion about bonjwa and GOATs on foreign side when in Korean side, it's mostly dismissal along lines of "it doesn't count because there's much less competition and new blood" This really is it. Like many have said, the new players will generally evolve to be better than the old players in an active sport&esport. What makes someone great is winning and staying at the top despite hordes of players coming to take your job, because it implies that you are also constantly evolving your game and not falling off. If it's always the same people playing each other, of course the ones that win will likely win the next tournaments or competitions too. All good, but the topic is not about "if younger players could catch up to current pros", but about "higher peak as a Zerg player". In my view, there should be no debate that current Soulkey (and other pros) are on overall way higher level/peak than Kespa players.
Higher Peak is different than goat tho.
There are right now 5 zerg players that are better than past Jaedong.
Soma
Queen
Effort
Soulkey
Hero
In football Ronaldinho is proly the highest peak any football player reached. Is him in the goat list ? Nope.
Is Soulkey the player with the highest peak ? well in zvt and zvp maybe. in zvz no.
On top of that in a less competitive scene is really hard to call him the goat over Jaedong. Im pretty sure every Korean respect way more Jd than Soulkey.
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On January 30 2025 23:44 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2025 21:51 kogeT wrote:On January 30 2025 20:30 Akio wrote:On January 30 2025 16:59 jinjin5000 wrote:
There's so much discussion about bonjwa and GOATs on foreign side when in Korean side, it's mostly dismissal along lines of "it doesn't count because there's much less competition and new blood" This really is it. Like many have said, the new players will generally evolve to be better than the old players in an active sport&esport. What makes someone great is winning and staying at the top despite hordes of players coming to take your job, because it implies that you are also constantly evolving your game and not falling off. If it's always the same people playing each other, of course the ones that win will likely win the next tournaments or competitions too. All good, but the topic is not about "if younger players could catch up to current pros", but about "higher peak as a Zerg player". In my view, there should be no debate that current Soulkey (and other pros) are on overall way higher level/peak than Kespa players. Higher Peak is different than goat tho. There are right now 5 zerg players that are better than past Jaedong. Soma Queen Effort Soulkey Hero In football Ronaldinho is proly the highest peak any football player reached. Is him in the goat list ? Nope. Is Soulkey the player with the highest peak ? well in zvt and zvp maybe. in zvz no. On top of that in a less competitive scene is really hard to call him the goat over Jaedong. Im pretty sure every Korean respect way more Jd than Soulkey.
What about Savior, is he zerg GOAT then?
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On January 31 2025 00:11 SiarX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2025 23:44 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On January 30 2025 21:51 kogeT wrote:On January 30 2025 20:30 Akio wrote:On January 30 2025 16:59 jinjin5000 wrote:
There's so much discussion about bonjwa and GOATs on foreign side when in Korean side, it's mostly dismissal along lines of "it doesn't count because there's much less competition and new blood" This really is it. Like many have said, the new players will generally evolve to be better than the old players in an active sport&esport. What makes someone great is winning and staying at the top despite hordes of players coming to take your job, because it implies that you are also constantly evolving your game and not falling off. If it's always the same people playing each other, of course the ones that win will likely win the next tournaments or competitions too. All good, but the topic is not about "if younger players could catch up to current pros", but about "higher peak as a Zerg player". In my view, there should be no debate that current Soulkey (and other pros) are on overall way higher level/peak than Kespa players. Higher Peak is different than goat tho. There are right now 5 zerg players that are better than past Jaedong. Soma Queen Effort Soulkey Hero In football Ronaldinho is proly the highest peak any football player reached. Is him in the goat list ? Nope. Is Soulkey the player with the highest peak ? well in zvt and zvp maybe. in zvz no. On top of that in a less competitive scene is really hard to call him the goat over Jaedong. Im pretty sure every Korean respect way more Jd than Soulkey. What about Savior, is he zerg GOAT then?
The goat of matchfixing
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this isnt even a debate. jaedong wins by a mile
a goat discussion can only be had by putting jd vs savior, which imo jd still takes anyway.
if the question was phrased, "would current soulkey beat kespa jd in a one off bo3/5?", the answer is most likely yes.
the question of whether the current ex pros are better at starcraft now compared to the kespa days has been put to them multiple times and the answer has been largely the same regardless of who the question was asked to.
the ex pros' understanding of the game is better now. but their mechanical ability is objectively worse, and if their kespa versions were given time, they would overcome the slight difference in theory through sheer mechanical supremacy. both flash and queen have specifically placed importance on the difference in mechanical ability and how that holds greater weight than the slight advantage they currently have in superior game understanding.
soulkey is top in an era where the players are already performing at a level which is not their theoretical maximum. the players are either too old to really push their mechanics, or lack the competitive drive to reach the top.
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Let's assume that SK is the current best player and set his power rating at 100. Further let's say the current top 10 players have an average rating of 95.
I think it's clear that the level of games we see today is overall higher than what we saw in the past.
I'd say Flash/JD/Bisu during their prime era were at something like 95/94/93. But the top 10 player average was at something like 85. I feel like these 3 were more dominant during their era compared to the rest of the field, than SK currently is.
I'd say the TBLS era was the most contested of all bw periods and JD at that time was clearly the best Zerg player, so he deserves respect for being the best when it mattered the most.
Last, Savior. I'd put him at 85 during his prime, and the top 10 average back then at 70. Basically everyone was much worse which made Savior stand out way more.
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EPT
