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jinjin5000
United States1423 Posts
It's not going down well in Korea since people feel like it never addressed the core issue, which was people feeling that the intent behind crypto was to exploit fans to make money, and people also feel that this shouldn't have just been short pre-recorded stream but live Q&A. And to people who aren't famililar, I wrote script to Saiyan's video on this incident here: + Show Spoiler + 
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Highwinds
Canada955 Posts
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llIH
Norway2143 Posts
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jinjin5000
United States1423 Posts
he's streaming live as if nothing happened, no Q&A Come on. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1423 Posts
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Lorch
Germany3682 Posts
So I guess he lost 1 Billion won? Imo that's more than enough punishment. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands838 Posts
On October 20 2024 21:37 Lorch wrote: Thank you for the fast translation, especially on a sunday. So I guess he lost 1 Billion won? Imo that's more than enough punishment. I changed my perspective on the flashcoin scandal when the article came out that Suit was convicted for scamming millions worth of USD(in won) from people. Changed my mind in that Flash(and the others too) was most likely a victim of the scam who was desperate for his money and fell victim to the sunk cost fallacy, where he just kept dumping more money into the obvious attempt to scam him to get his already lost money back. Flash was way too naïve. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4193 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands838 Posts
https://m.mt.co.kr/renew/view.html?no=2024083012062814873 "An internet broadcaster who was the central figure of 'AfreecaTV Coingate' was sent to trial on fraud charges and sentenced to a heavy sentence. On the afternoon of the 30th, the 11th Criminal Agreement Division of the Seoul Eastern District Court (Presiding Judge Kang Min-ho) sentenced Mr. Seo, who was indicted and detained on charges of violating the Act on the Aggravated Punishment, etc. of Specific Economic Crimes (fraud), to 15 years in prison. Mr. Seo was sent to trial on charges of recommending victims to invest in virtual assets (coins) or businesses issued by the company he operated and embezzling the investment money. There was also an embezzlement charge of purchasing star balloons from AfreecaTV (now SOOP) with money from the corporate account. It is reported that Seo denied some of the charges during the trial. However, the court determined that Seo used most of the investment money he received from the victims to pay off personal debts or for other purposes, and that he had no ability or intention to issue coins or conduct business and pay out profits from the beginning. The court stated, “Nine cases were merged and tried against the defendant. He admits some of them and does not admit others, but considering the evidence submitted by the prosecutor, he can be found guilty of all of the crimes.” He continued, "The defendant defrauded over 11 billion won in investments from 120 victims," and "Considering the content, method, number of crimes, and period of the fraud, his guilt is very high. We also took into account the fact that the victims are petitioning for severe punishment against the defendant." Seo is also the central figure of 'AfreecaTV Coingate', which became a hot topic in the personal broadcasting industry in 2021. BJs who are known to have invested in unlisted coins through Seo made a public apology to viewers and then suspended their activities for a period of time. Some BJs were met with harsh criticism for promoting coins issued by Seo's company on their personal broadcasts" This paints the picture that Flash(and the other streamers) was a victim and most likely target of the scam from the very start. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6579 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands838 Posts
On October 20 2024 22:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: This video makes the situation even more confusing. So in the end FlaSh lost around 1 billion won ? He mention that he paid all his career savings. Homie about to steal the id from Soulkey needmoney goddamn. I think it makes the situation less confusing because it matches what the Article about Suit being sentenced to 15 years of prison says. Flash got played by suit and fell for it in every single way possible. Article claims suit never intended to launch a cryptocoin, never even made any preparation to even code it. This creates the scenario where Flash and the others were the target of the scam, not the viewers and fans. I could be wrong but that's what it looks like to me. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7888 Posts
Anyways. It’s so good to see him back. I really hope we see him in next SSL. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
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Ideas
United States8097 Posts
On October 20 2024 22:32 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: I think it makes the situation less confusing because it matches what the Article about Suit being sentenced to 15 years of prison says. Flash got played by suit and fell for it in every single way possible. Article claims suit never intended to launch a cryptocoin, never even made any preparation to even code it. This creates the scenario where Flash and the others were the target of the scam, not the viewers and fans. I could be wrong but that's what it looks like to me. jeez! I don't get it though, if Suit got successfully prosecuted, where did all the money go? Just laundered away somewhere never to be returned to victims? Damn that really sucks but is also the risk you run betting your savings on crypto. Might as well spend the same amount on lottery tickets. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1020 Posts
On October 20 2024 23:22 Biff The Understudy wrote: I got to say i couldn’t care less about that crypto stuff. If Flash and his fans were naive and stupid enough to go into another get rich quick crypto scam, they honestly deserved to lose their money. Also, since when are StarCraft players financial advisers. Anyways. It’s so good to see him back. I really hope we see him in next SSL. Pas mal , exactement | ||
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Fighter
Korea (South)1531 Posts
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jinjin5000
United States1423 Posts
On October 20 2024 23:22 Biff The Understudy wrote: I got to say i couldn’t care less about that crypto stuff. If Flash and his fans were naive and stupid enough to go into another get rich quick crypto scam, they honestly deserved to lose their money. Also, since when are StarCraft players financial advisers. Anyways. It’s so good to see him back. I really hope we see him in next SSL. he did say he will participate next ssl | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6579 Posts
On October 20 2024 22:32 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: I think it makes the situation less confusing because it matches what the Article about Suit being sentenced to 15 years of prison says. Flash got played by suit and fell for it in every single way possible. Article claims suit never intended to launch a cryptocoin, never even made any preparation to even code it. This creates the scenario where Flash and the others were the target of the scam, not the viewers and fans. I could be wrong but that's what it looks like to me. Yeah tbh this article open the views a bit more. So far we have only been getting the side that flash is a crypto god with a failed scam project to now the guy is an actual victim. i still think some of the stuff he said in that video and the time line is a bit odd. FlaSh is not stupid. I actually predicted his return will be something like that. Hire a pr team to clean his image and then make a comeback. I actually expected him to take the same Bisu aproach. But he (with a pr team. Maybe from Soop ? idk ) prepared this video with different camera angles and shit that will work well with his die hard fans and not even having the need to do what Bisu or others did. I have no doubt that if he start to dominate the scene he will do really well again. And it will be for sure a valuable lesson to FlaSh. | ||
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Lazyer
United States342 Posts
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[AS]Rattus
427 Posts
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Zografa
177 Posts
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Miragee
8505 Posts
On October 21 2024 00:54 Fighter wrote: I haven't been following this story, but basically... Flash got scammed, and people blamed him because...? Because he miscommunicated the nature of what happened to him? Because it seemed like he was in on the scam. To me it's still unclear, even after that article. | ||
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Piste
6175 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands838 Posts
On October 21 2024 00:54 Fighter wrote: I haven't been following this story, but basically... Flash got scammed, and people blamed him because...? Because he miscommunicated the nature of what happened to him? yeah he failed to communicate what happened because at the time suit still had all the money he "invested". He didn't want to lose that 200k and fell victim to the "sunk cost fallacy" where someone who has lost money but wants it back, keeps putting more money into something that's obviously failing/a scam, in the hopes to get their money back. He fucked up big but is still the main victim of Suit's scams. Flash is good with games, had some luck with crypto once or twice, but ultimately is too naïve for his own good. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
On October 21 2024 03:04 Piste wrote: So flash will finally be back to dominate SSL? Awesome If SK 3 peat this year it would be more than awesome! | ||
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prion_
69 Posts
On October 21 2024 00:54 Fighter wrote: I haven't been following this story, but basically... Flash got scammed, and people blamed him because...? Because he miscommunicated the nature of what happened to him? He (and the other involved streamers, e.g., Sea, Bisu, etc.) had money invested in a coin with an additional zero-risk guarantee, where he would be paid back if the value of the coin fell below his investment amount. This was not disclosed to his stream viewers, even though he talked about and to a degree promoted the coin on stream. People quite reasonably saw this as an attempt by streamers to scam their viewers through a pump-and-dump crypto scheme: he would promote the coin to his viewers, they would drive the price up, and then he would sell the coin. This kind of stuff happens all the time with crypto because it has essentially no intrinsic value, so the only real way to profit from a crypto investment is to buy low and sell high, leaving someone else holding the bag. The coin basically fell apart before the scam could get off the ground, because all these details became public. Therefore, the streamers who had invested money were left holding the bag and in a sense got scammed. But they got scammed in the process of trying to scam their viewers. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1670 Posts
https://imgur.com/a/wA6C4ei https://vod.sooplive.co.kr/player/139791199 | ||
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cheesehuehue
Vatican City State90 Posts
On October 21 2024 03:43 CicadaSC wrote: Korean Community reaction seems somewhat mixed, but mostly negative https://vod.sooplive.co.kr/player/139791199 That could easily be selection bias: Most angry/outraged people are more vocal (like that guy who keeps pushing his own narrative on this forum like if it was an objective truth everyone must accept.) His second live stream today (after the apology stream) consistently had around 6k viewers and few of them seemed to mention the coin scandal (at least when I checked, although maybe he banned keywords related to that topic.) | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1670 Posts
On October 21 2024 03:59 cheesehuehue wrote: That could easily be selection bias: Most angry/resented people are more vocal (like that guy who keeps pushing his own narrative on this forum like if it was an objective truth everyone must accept.) His second live stream today (after the apology stream) consistently had around 6k viewers and few of them seemed to mention the coin scandal (at least when I checked, although maybe he banned keywords related to that topic.) I mean it could be they are more vocal, but that top comment is also the most "liked." so that is somewhat of a counterbalance to that bias. I also didnt cherry pick these at all its just whats at the top. | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1168 Posts
On October 21 2024 03:35 prion_ wrote: [...] he would promote the coin to his viewers, they would drive the price up, and then he would sell the coin. This kind of stuff happens all the time with crypto because it has essentially no intrinsic value, so the only real way to profit from a crypto investment is to buy low and sell high, leaving someone else holding the bag. The coin basically fell apart before the scam could get off the ground, because all these details became public. Therefore, the streamers who had invested money were left holding the bag and in a sense got scammed. But they got scammed in the process of trying to scam their viewers. Thanks for this summary. This is how I understood the situation as well, but I do not know all the details. Yet out of all the facts I'm aware of, the last bolded part is the gist of the situation, and he does not seem to fully own up to it in his apology video. Him losing money himself does not change anything of it. Is this overlooking anything? | ||
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TMNT
2704 Posts
Although it once again shows he's a coward. Never really faced the fans questions or addressed the core issue. Just played a video and acted as if everything's all good now. But it's a moot point anyway. Bisu Sea and co received a lot of hate when they came back but it's not like when the hate talks reached 70% or something they had to stop streaming lol. As long as there are viewers and donations, and their colleagues accept them back, which of course they do, the show just goes on. | ||
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oxKnu
1179 Posts
Has he played any games against Snow, Soulkey, Mini, Best? How's he looking? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21665 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands838 Posts
On October 21 2024 03:35 prion_ wrote: He (and the other involved streamers, e.g., Sea, Bisu, etc.) had money invested in a coin with an additional zero-risk guarantee, where he would be paid back if the value of the coin fell below his investment amount. This was not disclosed to his stream viewers, even though he talked about and to a degree promoted the coin on stream. People quite reasonably saw this as an attempt by streamers to scam their viewers through a pump-and-dump crypto scheme: he would promote the coin to his viewers, they would drive the price up, and then he would sell the coin. This kind of stuff happens all the time with crypto because it has essentially no intrinsic value, so the only real way to profit from a crypto investment is to buy low and sell high, leaving someone else holding the bag. The coin basically fell apart before the scam could get off the ground, because all these details became public. Therefore, the streamers who had invested money were left holding the bag and in a sense got scammed. But they got scammed in the process of trying to scam their viewers. Actually that's not accurate. From the article talking about Suit(the mastermind behind the scandal) being sentenced to prison, it says there was never any intent from Suit to ever even Launch a coin at all. And that's according to the prosecution and the judge. Suit was scamming the streamers, not the viewers and the fans. https://m.mt.co.kr/renew/view.html?no=2024083012062814873 Flash definitely made mistakes, but there was never going to be a pump and dump. Suit intended to milk the streamers for their money promising them investments and profits from a coin that was never going to happen. Maybe I am wrong but that's what I've read, and I've been told the article is legit by a Korean friend. | ||
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prion_
69 Posts
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spets1
57 Posts
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Li_Xin
51 Posts
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Fighter
Korea (South)1531 Posts
On October 21 2024 03:15 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: yeah he failed to communicate what happened because at the time suit still had all the money he "invested". He didn't want to lose that 200k and fell victim to the "sunk cost fallacy" where someone who has lost money but wants it back, keeps putting more money into something that's obviously failing/a scam, in the hopes to get their money back. He fucked up big but is still the main victim of Suit's scams. Flash is good with games, had some luck with crypto once or twice, but ultimately is too naïve for his own good. Ok, that was pretty much my read on the situation, but just wanted to make sure... Major bummer for Flash. It's not like being a Brood War pro is ever going to get more lucrative. Hope he's doing ok financially after all that. Is there any chance of him recouping the losses? I think someone mentioned a lawsuit? | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
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Emnjay808
United States10655 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21665 Posts
On October 21 2024 06:55 Emnjay808 wrote: Because he also convinced his fans to invest?According to the video Flash invested his own money. Why does he need to apologize to fans? | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands838 Posts
On October 21 2024 06:57 Gorsameth wrote: Because he also convinced his fans to invest? They never invested. Whether Flash had malicious intent though is up for debate still. Flash talked about the coin to his viewers and did encourage them that the coin was going to be great. Flash however was the target of the scam, not the viewers. If Flash had malicious intent in his shilling of the coin, then yes, we should hold him accountable for that. But if he had no malicious intent and was purely used by Suit, then we should hold Suit accountable for all of it and cut Flash some slack. Flash was not prosecuted so court likely deemed him not a part of the scheme but instead a victim. Flash should clarify things in greater detail and clear the air once and for all. | ||
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Emnjay808
United States10655 Posts
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cheesehuehue
Vatican City State90 Posts
On October 21 2024 08:03 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: They never invested. Whether Flash had malicious intent though is up for debate still. Flash talked about the coin to his viewers and did encourage them that the coin was going to be great. Flash however was the target of the scam, not the viewers. If Flash had malicious intent in his shilling of the coin, then yes, we should hold him accountable for that. But if he had no malicious intent and was purely used by Suit, then we should hold Suit accountable for all of it and cut Flash some slack. Flash was not prosecuted so court likely deemed him not a part of the scheme but instead a victim. Flash should clarify things in greater detail and clear the air once and for all. This is by far the most reasonable and least speculative take I've seen about this topic. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13005 Posts
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Navane
Netherlands2748 Posts
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NoobSkills
United States1598 Posts
On October 21 2024 08:50 Navane wrote: If flash thought he had a secret guarantee on his investment, and his fans had not on theirs, and he encouraged his fans to invest, then that was bad and deserves an apology. The fact that suit ran a meta scam and never even intended to launch the coin is not relevant. The fact that the coin never materialized doesn't erase flashes intentions. Let's say as a public advertiser, he got paid 300k not guaranteed, just cash to advertise for this fake coin and his job was the promote it for that money. Still had no idea it was a scam, had no controlling interest etc etc etc. Does that still make him guilty of misleading? Don't individuals have a responsibility especially with an already risky investment entity to realize not only that it could potentially be a scam, but also it simply could have bottomed out if it were legit. How much is he responsible for people's risky lottery ticket "investments"? Is it any different than a celebrity touting some product they don't use who perhaps receives half their payment in stock or those weirdo skin gambler streams where they gamble and win/lose fake money from the website to be a part of the advertisement? Now sure there is the caveat that a lot of this is kids gambling but we're not narrowly focusing on that specific thing. My point is how much is it anyone's responsibility to baby sit fucking adults? The guarantee on the meme investment changes nothing in my opinion and everyone should know that meme coins, meme NFTs, meme stocks etc are risky and have massive potential for many points of failure. And considering from what I've seen it appears that Flash had ZERO idea that it was a scam coin nor did he have any ownership over the company providing the coin, so it seems as if people are looking for a scapegoat for their own poor investing. Beyond that, I'm fairly certain that if any one of them asked any reputable investment firm about coins and specifically new/unreleased ones they would have been alerted to the risks, not to mention a simple google search could have shown examples of specifically that scam coins or coins that went bust. Again their poor investments aren't the responsibility of anyone else. It isn't like Flash was holding a gun to their head demanding they invest in scamcoin.net. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7801 Posts
Being angry at the guy who just got scammed out of 700K USD is ridiculous. You lose 700k because you believe in the scammer obviously. If Flash believed in the project and shilled it to his viewers, that's not him trying to scam his viewers... it's just being an idiot and sharing his idiotic view with others. Ultimately individual investors are responsible for their own investments... Sorry to hear about the whole situation but looking forward to watching Flash play again. Also... I get that people are still going to be mad, I'm not calling anyone who is mad an idiot. Just saying 700k is a lot and typically scammers are smart about not being scammed (like Flash wasn't) | ||
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quaristice
112 Posts
obviously legality isn't morality, but i think that maybe might give some context to people's reactions? | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1598 Posts
On October 21 2024 11:23 quaristice wrote: i'm not an expert, but if it had been a stock or other security more tightly regulated than crypto, i believe in most countries what flash had done would be illegal, would it not? you're typically legally required to disclose details that he didn't disclose, at least that's my understanding, regardless of if he himself got scammed or not. obviously legality isn't morality, but i think that maybe might give some context to people's reactions? Based off everything we know right now, as it is, if this were a stock deal, I cannot think of anything that would get him in trouble. It isn't insider trading. Nobody is forced to claim or acknowledge if they have stock guarantees or backed stock options. Perhaps sometimes if you were in government or position of authority this might be an issue, but flash wasn't in those types of positions. He didn't own the coin creator's company, he wasn't management, he wasn't some government employee reviewing data or who was on the inside trade. He was more of a spokesperson or hired celebrity tasked with advertising the product. I don't know how much Michael Jordan gets paid by Hanes I'm sure you could figure it out, and I'm not sure if he had options in stock or backed stock from that company and while I'm sure maybe if an individual wanted to they could figure it out, I simply don't think there is an obligation for anyone to tell you anything. I am not a universal market investor or lawyer, don't cite me. I just don't see the directly applicable portion of known issues. Perhaps someone with more legal knowledge than myself might have an opposing idea, but I don't see how. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50119 Posts
On October 21 2024 08:50 RowdierBob wrote: How do the other pros feel about Flash? Like they all despise Savior but the Flash situation is obv very different. Is there sympathy for Flash among his peers or are they annoyed about the bad publicity be brought the game? pretty interested in this, but my feeling is that they're obviously fine since they still play against him pretty openly, its not the same as running into MJY on ladder. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland560 Posts
Drama is also good for bigger viewership. As for the whole crypto thing, we don't know if Flash knew that the coin was a scam. If he knew and he lead people to invest on purpose, then he is not a nice human being; if not, he is one of the biggest victims. | ||
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HOLYBATS
Turkey726 Posts
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kAra
Germany1369 Posts
people who still complain just love drama i suppose | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25186 Posts
On October 21 2024 11:34 NoobSkills wrote: Based off everything we know right now, as it is, if this were a stock deal, I cannot think of anything that would get him in trouble. It isn't insider trading. Nobody is forced to claim or acknowledge if they have stock guarantees or backed stock options. Perhaps sometimes if you were in government or position of authority this might be an issue, but flash wasn't in those types of positions. He didn't own the coin creator's company, he wasn't management, he wasn't some government employee reviewing data or who was on the inside trade. He was more of a spokesperson or hired celebrity tasked with advertising the product. I don't know how much Michael Jordan gets paid by Hanes I'm sure you could figure it out, and I'm not sure if he had options in stock or backed stock from that company and while I'm sure maybe if an individual wanted to they could figure it out, I simply don't think there is an obligation for anyone to tell you anything. I am not a universal market investor or lawyer, don't cite me. I just don't see the directly applicable portion of known issues. Perhaps someone with more legal knowledge than myself might have an opposing idea, but I don't see how. No, not always legally but perhaps sometimes it’s rather a good idea to do so. He is a streamer/personality, one needs to be more careful using that position and platform. Most people know how regular endorsements work, I doubt many people actually think George Clooney is grabbing an instant Nescafé when he’s in some glamorous locale. Less so in this space. There’s a reason ‘influencers’ (god I hate that word) have money thrown at them, there’s that sense of authenticity (be it real or not), or that parasocial level of engagement. It’s a powerful asset to have, until you transgress, in which case you can reap the whirlwind of a commensurately more vicious backlash. Flash fucked up and reaped said whirlwind, that’s very much on him. He did also get scammed himself, so I’m not without sympathy there either. For me the rule of thumb if you have a loyal fanbase, if you want to push anything, especially monetary is ‘If my fanbase knew the details of this, would they be OK with it?’ and not ‘Am I doing anything legally wrong?’ If you’re going in with the second option you’ve already fucked up in picking your thresholds. I haven’t done anything illegal if I hypothetically cheated on my partner with my brother’s, it doesn’t mean people wouldn’t be really pissed off Personally I think Flash’s response has been pretty shit, but the guy has suffered somewhat in multiple domains too. I’ve no great issue with him returning to do his thing, although I do have issue with people deflecting any and all responsibility onto everyone else because they want to see him play BW | ||
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iloveav
Poland1478 Posts
One thing is to pump and dump coins to make money yourself, and another is to lose cash yourself and by saying what you are doing and that you think its a good idea to put money into it (which is dangerous when you are famous, so this has two sides). I do not know if Flash had any back deals like being paid on the side to promote this or any of those things. And SC:BW does have a very, very troubling history, so it's not like that helps either. I think crypto has been doing a lot of damage over a lot of years so I have believe to some extent that people are complicit if they promote crypto even if they eventually get scammed as well You have so many cases about crypto scams and its been going on for years. It is kind of like going to a strip club and saying you were there only for the drink. (or the music). At some point the "im just dumb" excuse stops working, especially when you stand to make a lot of money if things go your way. Not sure I explained my view very well. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21665 Posts
On October 21 2024 10:18 NoobSkills wrote: This is a really bad example. I assume you are aware there was actually a massive amount of drama about csgo skin gamblers who failed to disclose they owned or were affiliated with the gambling sites and were gambling with fake money and/or rigged draws to show them winning big?Is it any different than a celebrity touting some product they don't use who perhaps receives half their payment in stock or those weirdo skin gambler streams where they gamble and win/lose fake money from the website to be a part of the advertisement? Now sure there is the caveat that a lot of this is kids gambling but we're not narrowly focusing on that specific thing. My point is how much is it anyone's responsibility to baby sit fucking adults? Flash got scammed aswell, he is a victim for sure. Perhaps he never meant to defraud his fans when he promoted the crypto to them, but no matter how you look at it failing to disclose that he had a guaranteed return that others wouldn't have is maybe not illegal but certainly problematic and unethical. "People should know better". But people don't. There are billion dollar industries entirely build around exploiting people not knowing better or not being able to help themselves. | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary475 Posts
On October 21 2024 06:57 Gorsameth wrote: Because he also convinced his fans to invest? I do not want to exhonorate Flash from anything, but people should be responsible for their own action as well? I don't care if my favorite actor, or if my favorite football player, or if my favorite f1 driver would advertise something, I would do my own research and would not jump into it just because someone says so. Especially not in crypto world. Yes i know, there is Bitcoin, Ethereum etc. but the smaller coins were and are always very volatile. | ||
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quaristice
112 Posts
i think the apology video itself is a bad apology video, for two reasons: - it leaves some of those details unclear, and it invites these exact questions. if he didn't answer these questions after years of prep time to think about how and what to apologize for, it implies he doesn't understand why people are upset, and therefore doesn't construct a good apology. this could just be him fucking up, and not intentionality, but i can understand how people who care more might react with the assumption that it is intentionality. - the montage of him in starleagues and the recording setting of him setting in the room with all the gamer computers really rubs me the wrong way, like it's an attempt to play on emotions in a way that's not related to the apology or issue itself. like "look! remember all these times i was so cool in starcraft!" again, might just be a bad choice! lol! but man does it feel manipulative. and it's connected with him talking about his own desires and goals for coming back to starcraft, when an apology should not be about yourself, again, it's an issue with it lacking the construction of a proper apology. like he shouldn't be talking about coming back to starcraft until *after* an apology. i think even if you think he did nothing wrong, you gotta admit, the video is just bad. i do think it sucks how much he's borne the brunt of the blame for this whole thing when plenty of other guys were involved and obviously this "suit" guy is the real asshole here On October 21 2024 11:34 NoobSkills wrote: Based off everything we know right now, as it is, if this were a stock deal, I cannot think of anything that would get him in trouble. It isn't insider trading. Nobody is forced to claim or acknowledge if they have stock guarantees or backed stock options. Perhaps sometimes if you were in government or position of authority this might be an issue, but flash wasn't in those types of positions. He didn't own the coin creator's company, he wasn't management, he wasn't some government employee reviewing data or who was on the inside trade. He was more of a spokesperson or hired celebrity tasked with advertising the product. I don't know how much Michael Jordan gets paid by Hanes I'm sure you could figure it out, and I'm not sure if he had options in stock or backed stock from that company and while I'm sure maybe if an individual wanted to they could figure it out, I simply don't think there is an obligation for anyone to tell you anything. I am not a universal market investor or lawyer, don't cite me. I just don't see the directly applicable portion of known issues. Perhaps someone with more legal knowledge than myself might have an opposing idea, but I don't see how. it's not like hanes, michael jordan wasn't telling people to invest, the rules are very different in telling people to buy underwear vs. securities like crypto or stocks. a quick google search of "if you're paid to promote a stock do you have to reveal that" seems to indicate that it's required in usa that you do in fact have to reveal that. it seems like not revealing it would be fraud? obviously korea might work very differently and cryptocurrency aren't stocks. my understanding is that flash revealed some of his involvement but not all the details? dunno if flash really intended it to be an intentional lie but typically i'd say most people don't view this stuff on intentionality, just effects. i guess neither of us are experts, dunno if there's anyone on here that would know this stuff? On October 21 2024 18:59 kajtarp wrote: I do not want to exhonorate Flash from anything, but people should be responsible for their own action as well? I don't care if my favorite actor, or if my favorite football player, or if my favorite f1 driver would advertise something, I would do my own research and would not jump into it just because someone says so. Especially not in crypto world. Yes i know, there is Bitcoin, Ethereum etc. but the smaller coins were and are always very volatile. i feel like the following two things can be true at the same time - fans have a responsibility when they fall for very obviously bad financial advice or scams - a celebrity should not use their influence to promote a thing that can cause people serious harm, unless they are fully sure they know every detail. *especially* if they have a financial interest in promoting it. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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Ideas
United States8097 Posts
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TMNT
2704 Posts
On October 21 2024 23:51 Ideas wrote: What are the odds that flash will be participating in proleague, KCM, etc? I remember reading that KCM in particular is angry with flash so I'm guessing he won't be invited to that tournament unless he makes amends with him? Proleague for sure. In fact we may likely be about to see record funding in the upcoming days. KCM was also upset with Bisu initially but after his apology and when things bacame clearer that he was more of a victim from his idiocy, he was allowed in again. Same thing could happen for Flash. | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
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quaristice
112 Posts
On October 22 2024 00:34 L3gendary wrote: If the coin was never released, did any viewers actually lose money? and how? i don't believe any viewers lost money | ||
itsjustatank
Hong Kong9153 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands838 Posts
On October 22 2024 00:34 L3gendary wrote: If the coin was never released, did any viewers actually lose money? and how? streamers were the target and some of them lost some or a lot of money. viewer lost nothing except their trust in flash. | ||
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Jealous
10142 Posts
Anyway, definitely going a bit on a tangent from the main point so I'll circle back, hooray Flash back but also lmao. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7888 Posts
On October 22 2024 04:11 Jealous wrote: Before watching this I was basically willing to root for Flash's comeback no matter what but he made this so fuckin' corny, it's like he hired a PR manager and a producer in order to make this video, and while on the one hand I can kinda get the thought process + appreciate the fact that there may be some cultural differences I'm not taking into account, it still feels corny as all hell. Like, did he come up with the questions that he was asking himself? If not, then he probably got him from netizens or other critics, right? So then who parsed which ones to answer or not, and if it was him alone and not someone helping him in the production of this video and the attempt at an image correction, why did he choose to present it this way? Anyway, definitely going a bit on a tangent from the main point so I'll circle back, hooray Flash back but also lmao. I mean, the whole thing is just a PR exercise. I mean, he lost a billion won through being naive and clueless, what is he supposed to do now. Handstand? Like, since there is no money to be repaired or anything, why do people care about the format of his apology video. Does it really make a difference that he appears « sincere » and « authentic »? This is all so pointless. | ||
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TMNT
2704 Posts
On October 22 2024 04:59 Biff The Understudy wrote: I mean, the whole thing is just a PR exercise. I mean, he lost a billion won through being naive and clueless, what is he supposed to do now. Handstand? Like, since there is no money to be repaired or anything, why do people care about the format of his apology video. Does it really make a difference that he appears « sincere » and « authentic »? This is all so pointless. The problem is Flash led other pros (Bisu, Sea, etc.) into this scam, whether he knew it was a scam or not. He was also the only one who "advertised" the coin to his fans. Basically he holds the most responsibility but he hid the longest and his apology is the most insincere among them. The others did a live stream where they faced the fans directly, talked for long and answers questions. Flash played a 10 min documentary about himself for his viewers, including some footage of his progamer days which is cringe af. It's like saying "I screwed up. My bad, apologies. But I won't go into any more details. Now look, isn't it exciting that I get into games now?" Of course it makes no difference if we're talking about his ability to return to progaming. But it makes a difference regarding the view of fans on his characters. | ||
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quaristice
112 Posts
apologies are partially about knowing that a person understands the harm or potential harm they did, and in doing so, demonstrate that they have learned from the behavior and will not repeat it. it's about restoring trust, because ultimately, he damaged the trust that many people had in him. if he comes back and doesn't apologize properly, how can people trust that he won't pull something bad again, possibly worse, and possibly succeed at it this time? this is one of the many important functions of an apology. and there's plenty of examples of things that fail to have certain impacts but are considered immoral or illegal because of potential impact. check out these sentences: "it's fine, it's attempted murder, nobody was actually murdered" "it's fine that he drove 100mph in a school zone, no children were harmed" "it's fine that she stole $20 from that guy since she gave him back $20 before he noticed" "it's fine for him to cheat on his wife because she doesn't know so it doesn't hurt her" obviously none of these things are the same, but they demonstrate pretty thoroughly that "nothing bad happened this time" doesn't exonerate a person from morality. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1598 Posts
On October 21 2024 17:40 WombaT wrote: No, not always legally but perhaps sometimes it’s rather a good idea to do so. He is a streamer/personality, one needs to be more careful using that position and platform. Most people know how regular endorsements work, I doubt many people actually think George Clooney is grabbing an instant Nescafé when he’s in some glamorous locale. Less so in this space. There’s a reason ‘influencers’ (god I hate that word) have money thrown at them, there’s that sense of authenticity (be it real or not), or that parasocial level of engagement. It’s a powerful asset to have, until you transgress, in which case you can reap the whirlwind of a commensurately more vicious backlash. Flash fucked up and reaped said whirlwind, that’s very much on him. He did also get scammed himself, so I’m not without sympathy there either. For me the rule of thumb if you have a loyal fanbase, if you want to push anything, especially monetary is ‘If my fanbase knew the details of this, would they be OK with it?’ and not ‘Am I doing anything legally wrong?’ If you’re going in with the second option you’ve already fucked up in picking your thresholds. I haven’t done anything illegal if I hypothetically cheated on my partner with my brother’s, it doesn’t mean people wouldn’t be really pissed off Personally I think Flash’s response has been pretty shit, but the guy has suffered somewhat in multiple domains too. I’ve no great issue with him returning to do his thing, although I do have issue with people deflecting any and all responsibility onto everyone else because they want to see him play BW How much of any individuals responsibility should be on others to regulate their choices? If a influencer/celebrity of any type did an advertisement campaign for McDonalds and individuals who ate there regularly died of heart attacks would they be responsible? Towards a bigger note every celebrity has pushed some trash item or gimmick or get rich quick scheme that might be an exaggeration, but I think you get my point. At the time of the crypto and NFT and all sorts of other weird booms there are winners and losers and sometimes just losers, but they knew they were gambling and if they didn't they should have been smart enough to know they weren't smart enough to know what they were doing. Your threshold changes nothing about the situation as well "if my fanbase knew" well, if the fanbase knew his investment was backed which apparently it wasn't I don't think it changes anything. People flocked to other meme coins at the mere mention by anyone because they're looking for a get rich quick lotto ticket. As for legality you're right you can mess up and it not be illegal, but what he did had no malicious intent nor does the result of it indicate he knew it was a scam. They're just simply looking for a scapegoat for their poor investment decisions. And his response is just like anyone and everyone else in that spectrum of people in the limelight. I don't think he is truly sorry, just sorry it caused him issues and lost him money. It isn't about deflecting because I want him to play BW it is because people are looking to blame others for decisions they made if he stayed retired my opinion about personal responsbility doesn't change. On October 21 2024 18:19 Gorsameth wrote: This is a really bad example. I assume you are aware there was actually a massive amount of drama about csgo skin gamblers who failed to disclose they owned or were affiliated with the gambling sites and were gambling with fake money and/or rigged draws to show them winning big? Flash got scammed aswell, he is a victim for sure. Perhaps he never meant to defraud his fans when he promoted the crypto to them, but no matter how you look at it failing to disclose that he had a guaranteed return that others wouldn't have is maybe not illegal but certainly problematic and unethical. "People should know better". But people don't. There are billion dollar industries entirely build around exploiting people not knowing better or not being able to help themselves. And Flash is supposed to be there to teach all those people about the issues with coin investments as a hobbyist investor? He is supposed to teach them about scam coins he didn't know were scam coins? Does he need to teach them about meme NFT investments as well? To what extent is personal responsibility thrown out the window? Again I don't wish that anyone were to make sure mistakes, but I'm not sure they get to blame others for their poor decisions. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25186 Posts
I don’t even think the majority of angry Korean netizens were investors mad they lost money, just people who felt the behaviour was shady. So they have a personal responsibility to… not be annoyed? It’s a minefield, one has to be negotiated with care. It’s stupid that people form these parasocial relationships with streamers, influencers etc, elevate them to think of them as actual friends with all that entails. But, they do do that so you have to consider it and leverage your influence pretty damn diligently. Flash fucked around and found out essentially what happens when someone who thought you were their friend, even though you never met feels you betrayed the friendship I mean our statements aren’t even particularly incompatible. Individuals should not take investment tips from StarCraft player, and crypto is a grifter’s paradise to boot, I don’t even disagree with that in the slightest. Equally in the very specific domain of being a streamer/influencer, consider the particulars of that dynamic and be very careful. Take some personal responsibility there as well. This isn’t to say more regular endorsements aren’t something I have ethical issues with, indeed in ways the opposite. But while similar I don’t think they’re directly equivalent. | ||
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prion_
69 Posts
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NoobSkills
United States1598 Posts
On October 22 2024 06:38 WombaT wrote: No just don’t hawk a coin in that platform in that manner? It might blow up in your face. I don’t even think the majority of angry Korean netizens were investors mad they lost money, just people who felt the behaviour was shady. So they have a personal responsibility to… not be annoyed? It’s a minefield, one has to be negotiated with care. It’s stupid that people form these parasocial relationships with streamers, influencers etc, elevate them to think of them as actual friends with all that entails. But, they do do that so you have to consider it and leverage your influence pretty damn diligently. Flash fucked around and found out essentially what happens when someone who thought you were their friend, even though you never met feels you betrayed the friendship I mean our statements aren’t even particularly incompatible. Individuals should not take investment tips from StarCraft player, and crypto is a grifter’s paradise to boot, I don’t even disagree with that in the slightest. Equally in the very specific domain of being a streamer/influencer, consider the particulars of that dynamic and be very careful. Take some personal responsibility there as well. This isn’t to say more regular endorsements aren’t something I have ethical issues with, indeed in ways the opposite. But while similar I don’t think they’re directly equivalent. So he could hawk a coin, but get paid cash, disclose cash, the coin goes bust or the owner scams everyone, but as long as he disclosed that he got paid and it was secured it would have been all good? Would that have changed anything really? really? As for your "think the majority of angry Korean netizens were investors mad they lost money" isn't that actually the case right? In the end nobody actually invested right? It was still on building blocks and not open to the public right? So they're mad about money they didn't even lose or invest lol. As for the parasocial minefield. Something something Darwin survivial.... But seriously though this day in age in the world scams happening all the time, governments stealing your money to give to their cohorts, every single massive Corportation looking for a chance to steal a few bucks here and there, greedy, scam, shady etc. How can you not look at almost everything with at least some skepticism? This instance flash didn't even know the coin was a scam, he got scammed, they were about to get scammed by proxy, and this wasn't even an intelligent con. This wasn't a regulated stock market investment it was a meme coin. I'm sorry but your personal responsibility in this situation is 1000% on you. There are issues with plenty of regulated entities trying to mess over people, but you're essentially buying a lottery ticket with meme investing and at the point in which you're not smart enough to know you're not smart enough to be in that field , well you paid for a valuable lesson. And while I don't wish any harm what so ever on any regular joe, no money loss, no theft no medical, no devastation. I'm just not sure I can find the blame that they're looking for. ESPECIALLY since none of them actually invested. ESPECIALLY since flash himself actually got scammed. It is some sort of weird virtue signal extension of a crime/scam that didn't even happen to them nor anyone else. Edit: Wanted to extend the last bit. 1. The way the apology happened I do agree was moronic. 2. I don't actually think he is sorry except for in the ways that it cost him money and good will 3. All of their PR general statements and ways of dealing with this are simply that PR general statements. 4. Yes, I do think your own personal integrity should keep you away from known scams, but I don't think he knew it was a scam, and I do think he got lucky with meme coin investments before and thought he was some sort of a coin guru when in reality he just hit 21 a few times in a row. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7888 Posts
On October 22 2024 05:29 TMNT wrote: The problem is Flash led other pros (Bisu, Sea, etc.) into this scam, whether he knew it was a scam or not. He was also the only one who "advertised" the coin to his fans. Basically he holds the most responsibility but he hid the longest and his apology is the most insincere among them. The others did a live stream where they faced the fans directly, talked for long and answers questions. Flash played a 10 min documentary about himself for his viewers, including some footage of his progamer days which is cringe af. It's like saying "I screwed up. My bad, apologies. But I won't go into any more details. Now look, isn't it exciting that I get into games now?" Of course it makes no difference if we're talking about his ability to return to progaming. But it makes a difference regarding the view of fans on his characters. I realize. It’s just, we watch him because he is a very good player, not because he is a great guy, a smart investor or has a superior character. Why is any of that in the job description. This has nothing to do with brood war. Flash is naive and has been dumb enough to get himself and others into a get rich quick scam. Ok. Maybe, he is even not a great guy. Cool. Do we watch StarCraft games because the players are great guys? I know that’s celebrity culture these days and people care that you cheat on your wife because apparently that’s relevant to you golfing skills or something. I find it unbelievably dumb. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
On October 22 2024 08:16 Biff The Understudy wrote: I realize. It’s just, we watch him because he is a very good player, not because he is a great guy, a smart investor or has a superior character. Why is any of that in the job description. This has nothing to do with brood war. Flash is naive and has been dumb enough to get himself and others into a get rich quick scam. Ok. Maybe, he is even not a great guy. Cool. Do we watch StarCraft games because the players are great guys? I know that’s celebrity culture these days and people care that you cheat on your wife because apparently that’s relevant to you golfing skills or something. I find it unbelievably dumb. I'll preface my 2 cents by saying that I think Flash should make a full return to SC. My 2 cents: I understand the other side, too. On stream he hyped up a coin that turned out to be a scam. Though he was unaware of the scam, the platform he used was for SC streaming. He used it for that and for the coin hype, both. If he had separated the two things, it could be much more reasonably argued that there shouldn't be a controversy about his return to SC streaming, since in that case he couldn't have affected any of his viewers with the coin hype. I hope this makes sense. | ||
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coloursheep
China496 Posts
If I pay someone to make a bomb and they take the money but make a fake bomb that doesn't blow up that doesn't absolve me. | ||
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Emnjay808
United States10655 Posts
I feel like these are one and the same. | ||
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cha0
Canada504 Posts
On October 22 2024 00:15 TMNT wrote: Proleague for sure. In fact we may likely be about to see record funding in the upcoming days. KCM was also upset with Bisu initially but after his apology and when things bacame clearer that he was more of a victim from his idiocy, he was allowed in again. Same thing could happen for Flash. It's been so long so my memory is foggy but wasn't KCM saying that Flash is worse than savior for his behavior? I remember him being way more agitated and upset at Flash compared to Bisu. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25186 Posts
On October 22 2024 11:27 Emnjay808 wrote: Theres a streamer that wanted to back an NFT with his brand. At the time he thought it was legitimate. Of course the backlash from the community made him withdraw from launching the NFT, I believe he mentioned he lost 50k. And I truly believe he was genuine about the NFT and not performing a rug pull. Even after backing away, years later people still hold him scummy and accountable even when no one lost money. But again, he was genuine in thinking NFTs were a real thing. I feel like these are one and the same. That does suck for the guy/gal, and believe me I fucking hate crypto/NFT bullshit. Be it appearing prominently on Google, or having 9th-hand ‘oh I heard…’ posts on Reddit it’s pretty difficult to ever escape flak from any kind of genuine error these days It’s really only the reported idea that Flash believed he had some guarantee of investment that cross over from mistake into shady territory, that would be the difference for me versus your summation of this streamer Equally I mean, not something I would burn Flash at the stake for at all | ||
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Annagonzalez09
1 Post
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Bonyth
Poland560 Posts
On October 22 2024 08:16 Biff The Understudy wrote: Flash is naive and has been dumb enough to get himself and others into a get rich quick scam. Ok. Maybe, he is even not a great guy. Cool. Do we watch StarCraft games because the players are great guys? Yes, in my case, that's what I do | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
On October 22 2024 10:58 coloursheep wrote: Is it confirmed that he had guarantee that he wouldn't lose money even if the coin didn't perform well? Because if that's the case it's over. The only reason someone would give you that guarantee is if it's a rug pull. The fact that the whole thing was a scam and he lost money is irrelevant. If I pay someone to make a bomb and they take the money but make a fake bomb that doesn't blow up that doesn't absolve me. No, if it were confirmed that would be a crime, and as it stands Flash is a free man. | ||
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TMNT
2704 Posts
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jinjin5000
United States1423 Posts
On October 22 2024 17:57 Qikz wrote: The one thing that doesn't help in this either is Flash was a child when he became a progamer and then immediately went into streaming when he was done. Without any real work experience it opens you up to being targetted by a lot of weird scams as he's never been in a position where he's had to either worry or learn about how to keep and use his money safely. As a progamer all his winnings I assume went through his parents as everyone elses did and once that period was over he was pretty much rich enough to not need to worry about money. They never really got any form of street smarts as they've been in a relatively exploitative system from a young age and he at least was a mega rich streamer who could basically do nothing and make a ton of money. He's 32 man you can say same about Faker or BoxeR since FlaSh was in similiar status to starcraft as main face but here it is Yes, what koreans are assuming are the worst case scenario and are quite black and white about it, but it's flash's responsibility to handle his PR on moves he makes as the ripples he has impacts the whole scene | ||
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TornadoSteve
1020 Posts
You sound like you're a clever individual with a busy schedule. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1598 Posts
Your parasocial relationship with esports players leaves you with no idea if they're "great guys." So you were either trying to go for some sort of edgey comeback or you are delusional in thinking you actually know them and what they're about. So, no, in your case, that isn't what you do. | ||
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BulgarianToss
Bulgaria484 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands838 Posts
On October 23 2024 19:25 BulgarianToss wrote: My problem with his apology video is that if i understand correctly even after he knew it was a pump and dump scheme (after the incident) he still continued to participate in it until he got broke almost? His fans might've not been that mad if he immediately withdrew whatever money he got in and apologized at the spot, but now he is also letting them know he continued doing it after the scam was out. This is what i understood from the video, i might be mistaking. Very odd, as a fan i would be more mad with him now than i was before this apology. In my case i just want to see him play starcraft again, but he made it very hard with all this nonsense. not quite correct. it was never a pump and dump scheme. it was accused of being one by viewers and fans. Suit kept assuring Flash that it definitely wasnt a pump and dump scheme and promised he could get Flash his money back if flash lent him a bit more money. This way Suit ensured Flash wouldn't expose Suit because he had Flash by the balls. | ||
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art_of_turtle
United States1183 Posts
On October 21 2024 04:40 TMNT wrote: His stream chat is restricted to club members only (or something like that), so of course there's no hateful talks since only the die hard fans are there. Although it once again shows he's a coward. Never really faced the fans questions or addressed the core issue. Just played a video and acted as if everything's all good now. But it's a moot point anyway. Bisu Sea and co received a lot of hate when they came back but it's not like when the hate talks reached 70% or something they had to stop streaming lol. As long as there are viewers and donations, and their colleagues accept them back, which of course they do, the show just goes on. Well would you be willing to listen to trolls and people berate you for your actions which have already had deep consequences? Are you hoping for something worst to happen to flash? Do you know that he is acting as if everything is "All Good"? I don't understand how you can call him a coward. A coward is a person who wouldn't even attempt to face the consequences of his actions. He said it himself he has no more intention to pursue the money he lost. He blamed his mom for his action and has now taken ownership of his mistakes. What more detail would you want from him? Do you want him to give all his money away? Do you need a deeper bow? Do you need to see him so hurt that he will never show his face again out of shame. I want you to seriously consider what it is would remedy the pain you felt to be willing to call him a coward. @JinnJinn thank you for the prompt video. You're a true hero to this space in all the translations you provide. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1020 Posts
There is about 15 good reasons of why he's a coward. Im sure you can figure them out all by yourself. | ||
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art_of_turtle
United States1183 Posts
On October 24 2024 10:58 TornadoSteve wrote: Are you serious ? How old are you? There is about 15 good reasons of why he's a coward. Im sure you can figure them out all by yourself. I can think of only 1 individual who is a coward. It ain't flash. Owning up to your mistakes is not cowardly, and neither is taking your time to reflect on the mistake. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
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Maksim2010
35 Posts
On October 22 2024 10:17 Magic Powers wrote: I'll preface my 2 cents by saying that I think Flash should make a full return to SC. My 2 cents: I understand the other side, too. On stream he hyped up a coin that turned out to be a scam. Though he was unaware of the scam, the platform he used was for SC streaming. He used it for that and for the coin hype, both. If he had separated the two things, it could be much more reasonably argued that there shouldn't be a controversy about his return to SC streaming, since in that case he couldn't have affected any of his viewers with the coin hype. I hope this makes sense. No one knows if he wanted intentionally scam viewers. I think he was aware about it but talked into by the coin guy to make more money. Most people get more greedy the more money they have. If he wasn’t aware I don’t think he would have disappeared for that long and with such shame in him of it. Lucky for him no viewer bought the coin. We are human and make mistakes we can forgive. Should be lesson for him to not trust everyone. Also flash doesn’t seem like a bad person who wants evil to his viewer. Just a one time mistake. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4091 Posts
On October 24 2024 17:19 Maksim2010 wrote: No one knows if he wanted intentionally scam viewers. I think he was aware about it but talked into by the coin guy to make more money. Most people get more greedy the more money they have. If he wasn’t aware I don’t think he would have disappeared for that long and with such shame in him of it. Lucky for him no viewer bought the coin. We are human and make mistakes we can forgive. Should be lesson for him to not trust everyone. Also flash doesn’t seem like a bad person who wants evil to his viewer. Just a one time mistake. Flash most likely took so much time for his return because his skill is his number one selling point. He knows people would more easily welcome him back if he's #1 | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21665 Posts
On October 24 2024 16:09 Dante08 wrote: Nah, pushing Crypto onto your fans would also be looked on badly over here.If Flash did this in the US or Europe I’m pretty sure it would be a non-story. It’s only gotten as big as it is because Korean online culture is toxic as hell. You have influencers literally scamming people but still remain famous. | ||
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Miragee
8505 Posts
On October 24 2024 16:09 Dante08 wrote: If Flash did this in the US or Europe I’m pretty sure it would be a non-story. It’s only gotten as big as it is because Korean online culture is toxic as hell. You have influencers literally scamming people but still remain famous. Yes and you can see why in this very western forum. | ||
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art_of_turtle
United States1183 Posts
On October 24 2024 21:12 Gorsameth wrote: Nah, pushing Crypto onto your fans would also be looked on badly over here. Little Andrew Tate fans called Coffeezilla gay in his leaked email so that Andrew Tate would pump his scam coin Daddy. | ||
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