EPTWhat do you think?
Would Flash be as sucesful if he was zerg or toss?
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SiarX
133 Posts
What do you think? | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
130 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4267 Posts
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Simplistik
2142 Posts
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oxKnu
1260 Posts
I think with Protoss he would be the best P of all time but only with a couple of ASLs, a career similar to Rain's but with much better consistency but the only race where he would not dominate the scene/game as a whole, for a significant amount of time. Protoss would take him longer than Terran to maximize his skill, Zerg much less before he is successful, much longer than both other races before he maxes out. | ||
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SiarX
133 Posts
On September 02 2024 07:05 oxKnu wrote: I think as Zerg he could, but with a worse record. I think with Protoss he would be the best P of all time but only with a couple of ASLs, a career similar to Rain's but with much better consistency but the only race where he would not dominate the scene/game as a whole, for a significant amount of time. Protoss would take him longer than Terran to maximize his skill, Zerg much less before he is successful, much longer than both other races before he maxes out. Why protoss cannot dominate as a whole, and zerg has worse record? | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1547 Posts
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angry_maia
331 Posts
Furthermore, I think PvZ is quite volatile as well -- Z can always choose to gamble between 3-hatch hydra, 2-hatch muta, or even a ling bust, which makes it hard to consistently crush Z as P. I'm not saying T is imba, I"m rather saying that with T, you can more reliably expect the best player to win (at a sufficiently high level). | ||
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johnnyh123
124 Posts
Michael Jordan was an amazing basketball player and a great baseball player (yeah his stats sucked as a baseball player, but he was a better baseball player than any of us here on tl.net). If he chose baseball to dedicate his life to, I am 100% sure he will make it into MLB, and might do well, but will in no way be a HoF or the GOAT of baseball. Flash made the right choice to be Terran, it's what he was meant to be. I'm sure if he choose Zerg/Toss, he will crush any of us here at tl.net, but he wouldn't be the GOAT of SC1. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27041 Posts
On September 04 2024 15:44 johnnyh123 wrote: No I don't think Flash would be as successful if he was a Zerg or Toss. You could argue that the best player will win with any race, but I do think nature/mindset defines you. Michael Jordan was an amazing basketball player and a great baseball player (yeah his stats sucked as a baseball player, but he was a better baseball player than any of us here on tl.net). If he chose baseball to dedicate his life to, I am 100% sure he will make it into MLB, and might do well, but will in no way be a HoF or the GOAT of baseball. Flash made the right choice to be Terran, it's what he was meant to be. I'm sure if he choose Zerg/Toss, he will crush any of us here at tl.net, but he wouldn't be the GOAT of SC1. That’s a great comparison | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1266 Posts
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Simplistik
2142 Posts
On September 02 2024 11:55 jinjin5000 wrote: https://youtu.be/d7LE1jFd-Yc?si=Us53IH3kK6JWw7bW What I love most about Flash is his humility. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27041 Posts
I don’t know a huge amount about BW, more than average Joe and Jane in the street, but fuck all compared to some of you folks so interested to hear your insight For examples in the inverse, would Clem and Serral be as good if they swapped races? Almost certainly not IMO. Clem has monster micro and quelle surprise does well with the faction that rewards that best. Likewise Serral with his ability to read a game state like no other and playing the defensively reactive faction. I think most folks tend to gravitate towards what they think is initially cool, and if it really doesn’t suit their approach to the game make a switch. But I mean once you’re a progamer the latter takes on a whole other dimension in importance. I’m actually surprised that race switching across both games is so comparatively rare | ||
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Kraekkling
716 Posts
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Simplistik
2142 Posts
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Simplistik
2142 Posts
On September 04 2024 18:48 WombaT wrote: Expanding this out, what players actually probably did pick the ‘wrong’ race? I don’t know a huge amount about BW, more than average Joe and Jane in the street, but fuck all compared to some of you folks so interested to hear your insight For examples in the inverse, would Clem and Serral be as good if they swapped races? Almost certainly not IMO. Clem has monster micro and quelle surprise does well with the faction that rewards that best. Likewise Serral with his ability to read a game state like no other and playing the defensively reactive faction. I think most folks tend to gravitate towards what they think is initially cool, and if it really doesn’t suit their approach to the game make a switch. But I mean once you’re a progamer the latter takes on a whole other dimension in importance. I’m actually surprised that race switching across both games is so comparatively rare I suspect a significant factor is who your heroes are. If you got into SC because of Boxer then you'll stick with Terran etc.? There are of course successful players from all races to emulate. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia479 Posts
TvT is far less of a tossup compared to PvP and ZvZ in TvZ Z has to play almost perfect to survive until defiler, and Z early game cheese is almost non existent (hydra rush, 4/5 pool, lurk all in, ling all in, are all subpar and very rare), while T early game can cripple Z and still transition into normal game, like with a proxy rax in TvP T is behind by the slightest of margins, if any On the other hand, P will die to Z ling, muta and specially hydra rushes due to impossibility of scouting, will die to DT rushes, will lose reaver/goon fights here and there, and all in all will never be able to dominate consistently. Similar for Z as it will die to T like nothing sometimes, for example because it didn't defend perfectly vs first drops (which it normally can't scout while T sees everything with scan), or the sunkens or lurkers were 2 seconds late | ||
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Piste
6183 Posts
On September 04 2024 18:52 Kraekkling wrote: People have argued that Terran dominance in broodwar is not due to the fact that Terran is the best race, but people never argued that Zerg or Protoss is the best race. Who are these people? This is the first time I hear about this :0 | ||
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TMNT
3229 Posts
On September 04 2024 22:39 Piste wrote: Who are these people? This is the first time I hear about this :0 I think what he means is that there are people who say Terran dominance is not because Terran is the best race. But if that is true, that means either Protoss or Zerg is the best race. But the same people have never said so, effectively contradicting themselves. Of course said people could also say all 3 races are equal. But that is simply impossible. The fact that they are 3 different races with literally every unit and building being different already confirms there has to be an order of power, no matter how small the margin is. Now that margin obviously can be overcome with skills, hence we can have things like a pro beating a B ranker with one hand. But at very top when everyone maxes out their skills, so there's less potential to overcome such margin and that's where we see the clearest impact of race power. | ||
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Ideas
United States8173 Posts
On September 02 2024 05:04 Simplistik wrote: I kinda doubt it. Not even Jaedong made it to (the perhaps rather arbitrary) Bonjwa level... I think the only thing that stopped JD from being considered a bonjwa was the existence of flash lol. If flash didn't exist JD would have won at least 2-3 more titles and be the most successful progamer ever during the kespa era. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8115 Posts
On September 02 2024 16:09 angry_maia wrote: One underrated aspect of Terran is that TvT is by far the lowest variance mirror match-up. Anyone can win or lose in PvP or ZvZ, and this means that if you play P or Z, 1/3 of your match-ups are quite volatile. Furthermore, I think PvZ is quite volatile as well -- Z can always choose to gamble between 3-hatch hydra, 2-hatch muta, or even a ling bust, which makes it hard to consistently crush Z as P. I'm not saying T is imba, I"m rather saying that with T, you can more reliably expect the best player to win (at a sufficiently high level). Jaedong had almost a 90% winrate in ZvZ at his prime. Must have been 2008. In my mind, Jaedong is absolutely a bonjwa. He and Flash were for very long a clear head above everyone else. And when they were going toe to toe, it was really hard to predict who would win. | ||
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Simplistik
2142 Posts
On September 04 2024 23:35 Ideas wrote: I think the only thing that stopped JD from being considered a bonjwa was the existence of flash lol. If flash didn't exist JD would have won at least 2-3 more titles and be the most successful progamer ever during the kespa era. That sounds very plausible. Also Bisu might have picked up another title. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19367 Posts
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zelevin
United States318 Posts
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Expensive-Law-9830
130 Posts
On September 04 2024 22:58 TMNT wrote: Now that margin obviously can be overcome with skills, hence we can have things like a pro beating a B ranker with one hand. But at very top when everyone maxes out their skills, so there's less potential to overcome such margin and that's where we see the clearest impact of race power. Why is that 'obvious' that this margin can be overcome with skill? | ||
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TMNT
3229 Posts
On September 05 2024 08:12 zelevin wrote: I've been watching a lot of artosis, and i suspect that flash would be BETTER if he was protoss. it sounds like he would be the third or maybe fourth smart player to ever play protoss. (Artosis said that only Rain and snow are smart, but i suspect he would give credit to bisu, not sure.) The 3 Hatch Hydra alone is enough of a reason for Flash to not be better as Protoss. He could even be better than Bisu but he couldn't be better than his Terran version. That aside, Rain is a bit overrated and is often used by Artosis as an example of a "what if" Protoss bonjwa. It's a way for him to say "Look. Protoss is not weak. They could have had a bonjwa had Rain decided to take the game seriously". Some people do the same thing with Jangbi too. The best player is always the one on the bench. Truth remains that Rain won two major tournaments off the courtesy of PvP while his PvZ and PvT have never been as good as Bisu and Snow. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1266 Posts
On September 05 2024 09:26 TMNT wrote: The 3 Hatch Hydra alone is enough of a reason for Flash to not be better as Protoss. He could even be better than Bisu but he couldn't be better than his Terran version. That aside, Rain is a bit overrated and is often used by Artosis as an example of a "what if" Protoss bonjwa. It's a way for him to say "Look. Protoss is not weak. They could have had a bonjwa had Rain decided to take the game seriously". Some people do the same thing with Jangbi too. The best player is always the one on the bench. Truth remains that Rain won two major tournaments off the courtesy of PvP while his PvZ and PvT have never been as good as Bisu and Snow. We have to change the metrics. We're having this conversation based off of just two tournaments that happen a year, while ignoring an actual 99% of the pro competition that happens on yearly basis in terms of matches played. In the Kespa Era they didn't base the conversation on just two tournaments. They had way more offline tournaments back then, but do remember, online gaming back then wasn't even 10% as big as it is now. Streaming is big, online gaming is big. We should consider a bunch of the online tournaments and events as viable for the conversation of who is best and who isn't. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1266 Posts
On September 05 2024 11:15 Severedevil wrote: Broodwar is balanced up to the maps. If one faction is disfavored, it's because we've chosen map pools that disfavor that faction. this is true. eloboard reflects this well with winrates over larger sample sizes. Current pool seems to be bad for zerg. We are more likely r butdm | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8115 Posts
On September 05 2024 11:15 Severedevil wrote: Broodwar is balanced up to the maps. If one faction is disfavored, it's because we've chosen map pools that disfavor that faction. Agree. We talk of balance in a vacuum, while it only makes sense on a given map or set of maps. In that regard, the game is not balanced, it is balanceable. In the early days of competitive brood war, we used to play on island maps, maps with no second gas etc. Some matchups were really terrible. It’s only when discovered that Lost Temple had features that balanced the game - such as natural expansion, ramped main, accessible thirds etc… - that a relatively balanced meta emerged. The other aspect is that the difficulty of each race varies with levels. Protoss is way easier than Terran at D level. But when we talk about elite players, it’s hard to know whether a race dominates because it has bigger talents or because of the map pool. I would love to see statistics at pro level from the Kespa era to now without including Flash for example. | ||
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spets1
136 Posts
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