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Bisu played so well on that Python game and lost because of something tiny, he played a very high risk style and it didn't pay off I guess. I absolutely loved the zealot scout deny and how many vultures he managed to off in the initial push without losing anything to the them. Sure he could have perhaps won it with a different build, but he was so close there's now doubt he pulled it off many times in practice.
However, I have another theory on that game. Anyone remember Cananta vs Bisu in his first MSL? He knew Canata was going to turtle like crazy so he just did an FE and lost nothing on it, I think he came to the conclusion that Mind was going to play a highly turtleish anti-harass style and he could afford to FE, unfortunately for him Mind went highly aggressive. Game 4 just looked like a cluster fuck, I wasn't paying too much attention but it seemed Mind had in mind not to throw the map because it was imbalanced and Bisu played as expected of any Protoss and payed for it. It's a shame Bisu didn't make any disruption webs though, that would have been pretty sexy,
What do you guys think of how Mind built so many depots in his push to slow down the zeals? That was pretty cool, he made no mistakes there, and meticulously designed that labyrinth for Bisu. It seemed like the entire purpose of his long slow pushes was to break momentum even if he lost an army Bisu couldn't go off to pillage anything as he would lose goons to tanks and mines sporadically placed in his way.
Doesn't anyone think Bisu has looked differently lately? He seems to frown a lot more these days, he looked more relaxed in his first season while getting the same results. Well, I hope he defeats this Mind character in their next meeting and elevates his game and style.
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United States1655 Posts
On November 18 2007 16:50 IaniAniaN wrote:
Doesn't anyone think Bisu has looked differently lately? He seems to frown a lot more these days, he looked more relaxed in his first season while getting the same results. Well, I hope he defeats this Mind character in their next meeting and elevates his game and style.
His look reminds me a lot of Savor to be honest (at least the tired dead look when he played Bisu the first time).
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Mind outplayed Bisu with timing in game 1, with micro in game 3, and with strategy in game 4.
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game 4 was just brilliant by mind. His decision to go for wraiths from 1 port to counter carriers was tight. He pushed carriers back with some wraiths and simply rolled over bisu with his whole ground force.
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On November 18 2007 17:57 gameguard wrote:
game 4 was just brilliant by mind. His decision to go for wraiths from 1 port to counter carriers was tight. He pushed carriers back with some wraiths and simply rolled over bisu with his whole ground force.
Also his freakishly good timing with the goliaths... Mind had goliaths ready even without scouting the carriers out. His timing was that good. I cried and laughed at the same time when bisu's last carrier was running away from some goliaths to meet another group of goliaths, then he shifts direction to meet some more.. Nada wasn't lying when he said mind's tvp was godlike.
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United States20661 Posts
On November 18 2007 18:14 EpiK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2007 17:57 gameguard wrote:
game 4 was just brilliant by mind. His decision to go for wraiths from 1 port to counter carriers was tight. He pushed carriers back with some wraiths and simply rolled over bisu with his whole ground force. Also his freakishly good timing with the goliaths... Mind had goliaths ready even without scouting the carriers out. His timing was that good. I cried and laughed at the same time when bisu's last carrier was running away from some goliaths to meet another group of goliaths, then he shifts direction to meet some more.. Nada wasn't lying when he said mind's tvp was godlike.
He did scan the carriers.
Ungodly scan timing though. Right when the stargates finish warping in and the commentator goes to focus on it, Mind's comsat appears. Crazy.
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Does anyone know if they plan on releasing FPvods like after the savior MSL finals? or is it becoming to unpopular with the players? (I can't wait for the next IntoTheMSL)
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8751 Posts
On November 18 2007 17:33 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Mind outplayed Bisu with timing in game 1, with micro in game 3, and with strategy in game 4.
This is so wrong and there have already been good posts to the contrary so I don't know why you'd post this. The only thing that could make up for it was if you were a good player, but since you suck, your post sucks.
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United States7166 Posts
On November 18 2007 09:32 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Yes, Bisu played bad
Game 1 his attacks on Mind's units were very poorly executed, and taking that gas third instead of the island knowing a timing attack was coming was a greivous error.
Game 2, whatever. Bisu proxied because he has a history of losing on Blue Storm. No big deal.
Game 3, wow. The attack on Mind's nat was such a poor decision. Without that huge loss of units, he probably could have gotten himself at least even, what with Mind taking his third instead of immediately attacking. More horrible push attack execution.
Game 4, Bisu obviously thought Mind was going to do something stupid with marines, but he guessed wrong, and Mind was very far ahead from his conservative macro build. However, there was a point where BIsu had reduced Mind to one mining base, and had a group of dragoons as well as his seven carriers. Unfortunately, Mind's units approached Bisu's goons, and instead of bringing the carriers back and killing Mind's attack (which would have sealed the game in Bisu's favor), he chose to kill an armory and let all of his dragoons melt under tank fire. Poor choice!
Mad props to Mind for going from the first qualification round to winning the final, beating oov and savior and such to get there, but yes Bisu played very bad. He lost the series more than Mind won it, despite Mind's solid builds and good execution.
Fakesteve summed up my thoughts pretty well.
I'd also like to add that in Game 4 his counterattack on mind's base (while mind pushed on bisu's) was a poor decision. He would have been a lot better off had he saved his ground army for use alongside carriers, rather than separating them. Doing so would have given him a good chance of winning.
Although to be fair, Mind pretty much always played the perfect response to every build and event that took place. I cannot remember any single significant mistake, and his timing and decision-making were impeccable.
It goes without saying that Bisu should have and is capable of playing better than that. His decision-making abilities were below his average, his control was sloppy at times, and in game 4 he was at times in the position to showcase his excellent attacking abilities but instead made a few game-defining mistakes.
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My comments about the games, sorry it's a long post but since I had the vods, and I could see the games more than once, I think i got a nice idea in general about the games, and i want to share with you my impressions.
Game1:
You all said it, awesome timing, still bisu at first seemed to be almost able to take that forces out, so micro and exectuion played a major part into this. If i can point out a mistake by Bisu's side, imho, he could have tried to use more his reaver, once he saw the mineral line was protected he could have hit Mind buildings, just to force him to use his units and maybe delay his timing a bit.
I also noticed a nice BO by mind which i would like to point out: right after siege is done and a 2nd fact is building (together with an eng bay) he starts vult speed research, and only after he makes a 3rd factory, he does tanks with a factory and vults with the other while the 3rd is building, after speed research he researches mines, and before it's completed he start scouting with 4 speed vults, which would have been probably able to go through a goon wall, had bisu set up any. In this way he spotted bisu 3rd nex and he could time his attack perfectly, and he didn't waste moneys building an accademy, I know this may seem trivial because it's not anything new, or either seem a countless particular, but that fast vult tech is what imho put Mind in condition to do such an attack.
Game2: no comment
Game3: Mind was ahead of Bisu after the beginning, but not THAT much, what put him really behind instead, was that attack he made to the Mind's tank cluster, counting on the fact that vults weren't there (they were following a shuttle). That attack turned out to be a semi-massacre, Mind did simply counterattack then, I don't think timing was involved in this game
Game4:
Until Mind push begins nothing worth being mentioned, I think Bisu strategy wasn't bad till then, I don't think his counterattack on minds base was theorically a poor decision, it turned out to be a poor decision because, for reasons which are still not clear to me, Mind decided not to make any goliath, instead he kept on pumping out ground army, my supposition is that Mind counted on the surprise effect of his wraiths just to gain an "extra ground army pumping time", I could think he knew that bisu would have counterattacked thinkin he would have faced an almost pure goliath force, and while bisu's carriers, after getting rid of the 1st wave, were dealing with wraiths, he could have destroyed all his expansions with that extra army, that would have been a freaky game vision by Mind side.
For sure, once he saw mind was prepared, Bisu could have moved back his army, still the major part of his zealots ran onto mines before he could decide to go back, I just can say that Mind took a huge risk in this game in not making goliath at that point, since bisu's fleet was growing bigger, had he not lost his ground army and his resources maybe the game could have gone another way.
Overall Bisu didn't play bad, but Mind played perfectly, Bisu just made a mistake, (sometimes very hard to detect like in game 1) for each game he lost.
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On November 18 2007 16:50 IaniAniaN wrote:
Bisu played so well on that Python game and lost because of something tiny, he played a very high risk style and it didn't pay off I guess. I absolutely loved the zealot scout deny and how many vultures he managed to off in the initial push without losing anything to the them. Sure he could have perhaps won it with a different build, but he was so close there's now doubt he pulled it off many times in practice.
Yeah that zealot deny, so so pro, (possible PP?). The funny thing about that though is, because he was so sure on denying that scout, it would have given mind an idea on what he was trying to do. Even though mind said in the interview he wasn't sure if it was gate into nexus or whatever. Still pro.
I don't see why everyone isn't making a comment for game2, it was pretty awesome, mind played well there he almost had a chance at some point.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 19 2007 07:00 UbRi wrote:
Overall Bisu didn't play bad
Yeah, he did. Those are amateurish mistakes we expect Bisu not to make.
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Obviously "playing bad" has to be seen in light of the players we're talking about. Bisu didn't really play bad for a protoss, but he played bad for being Bisu. He has a lot more potential than the average pro-gamer protoss, potential which he didn't show in this series.
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I think he did play bad; Mind just capitalized. If Bisu played at his "average" which I think is a LOT HIGHER than his level of play showcased in series against Mind, not to mention any other P, Bisu would've got away with the series.
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Mind played very well.
First game Bisu could have won with better push breaking. He lost way too many zeals to mines at a critical moment during Mind's push that cost him.
Game 3 - people make too much of Bisu attacking Mind near the end. Bisu was too far behind after Mind's successful Joyo rush and he needed to do something or he was going to die a slow death. You could see he tried to separate Mind's forces by faking out with the shuttle at Mind's main. He simply had too many units and would have won that game regardless. As soon as that 2 CC was finished he was going to push Bisu and he wouldn't of been able to defend.
Game 4 - Bisu just made some bad decisions at crucial times. If he brought back his units after countering Mind's 4 CC or even brought back his cars after killing his back nat, he could have won. In saying this though, Mind's wraiths were crucial this game. They stopped Bisu's ability to counter with the carriers and let his land blob mop up Bisu's weak ground forces and undefended expos.
Overall a good series I think. Players were very close in skill and Mind was just better on the day.
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really I'm surprised that bisu didn't go with his standard early obs build.
Seems like both Savior and Bisu weren't comfortable in their standard successful builds against mind.
Never the less, it doesn't matter how bisu played, Mind played fantastically and he deserves the championship.
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On November 19 2007 09:12 Diggity wrote:
Never the less, it doesn't matter how bisu players, Mind played fantastically and he deserves the championship.
QFT
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Zurich15364 Posts
Also, Mind had invincible tanks in game 1. You can't win against invincible tanks.
Quote from Hwasin vs Bisu by Oxygen
"But Bisu is a fucking leprechaun - he pulls shit out of his ass and rips Hwasin a new one out of nowhere. I have re-watched the battle about a dozen times now and I still can't figure out how he did it."
When I watched that game I thougth how to hell is any terran supposed to win against Bisu if their tanks just seem to be made out of paper and mass-explode as soon as bisu's Zealots charge in?
This time it was kind of the opposite. Mass-Zealots charge in, all kinds of shit explodes and blows up, tanks fire everywhere, mines go off, and 2 seconds later everything is dead and in shreds - everything except all of Mind's tanks!
This time I had to watch the battle again because I couldn't believe it.
This is just an observation so I don't really care WHY the one battle went this way, the other that way. It's just one of the beautiful moments in starcraft watching when all I can think of is "wow!".
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EPT
