In game three, I don't think the loss was due so much to mind's timing as it was to bisu sacrificing units for dt tech.
i think had he gotten mass goons and few zealots he would have easily repelled the attack
overall, like honesttea said, he thought too much. he fell back on crutches in games 3 and 4 (dts and carriers). he lost his innovative adaptive instincts, and went for safe builds that have won him games before. also that invasion of mind's nat with his first ground forces was really stupid.
obviously its easy to be the monday morning quarterback and i don't want to take anything away from mind because he was on top of his shit, but bisu in many ways beat himself
Game 3: Again, one small micro mistake by Bisu at a crucial moment completely turned that game around that isn't even obvious unless you watch closely. This is the beauty of SC.
At 7:45-7:47 here: (or 9:45-9:47 in the .ogm video),
At this point it was exactly 3 tanks, 1 vult and 2 marines vs 5 goons + 2 zealots. Normally, I think the Toss would come out on top with these two armies.
At 7:45, Bisu saw a mine get planted down below his troops, but he misclicked when he tried to target it (or it sunk into the ground before he could react in time), and this resulted in 2 zealots and 2 goons charging towards it and splashing all 4 units with the mine + taking out a goon. Furthermore, if the zealots hadn't been damaged by the mine, it would've caused a perfect mine drag at 7:48/9:48 on the rine/vult group of Mind's as it walked over. If that mine hadn't gone off at exactly that moment, I am absolutely sure that Bisu would've repelled that push without having to pull/lose any probes, thus giving him a huge advantage rather than mind (2 base vs 1).
Anyways, both players up to that point had virtually flawless micro and Mind had Boxer-esque mine placement, but I thought it was amazing how that one little mistake was the turning point that led to a cascade of events that ultimately ended in his loss.
On November 18 2007 11:32 IaniAniaN wrote: I don't know much about Stork's PvT, but does anyone this stork could have won against Mind?
no. Well, depends on how many mistakes he makes, he's less consistent than bisu imo.
the battle at nat in game3 was horrible.. It's amazing how one small micro mistake on bisu's part cost him the game Mind's early push in game1 was extremely impressive though, excellent tank/mine placement and vulture micro.
also bisu's reaver drop did jack all, when it should have. I don't get why reaver ai is dumbed down when the mine is perfect, and it comes from a unit which is at a much earlier tech than the reaver.
On November 18 2007 12:46 liosama wrote: also bisu's reaver drop did jack all, when it should have. I don't get why reaver ai is dumbed down when the mine is perfect, and it comes from a unit which is at a much earlier tech than the reaver.
the reaver would be very imba if it had perfect AI. The vulture is weak, its mines can't directly attack workers, and it can't move by itself so no, sc isn't imba because of this reaver-vulture comparison of your's.
On November 18 2007 11:59 Jyvblamo wrote: Stork is even worse at defending against timing pushes, if his series versus Iris is anything to go by.
2 fac rush and timing push are very different things stork is quite a bit better vs timing pushes, normally, because he plays greedier opening builds but safer into the mid game. bisu opens reaver/dt drop and later expo, then makes up for it by taking his 2nd/3rd expos a bit quicker than he should. that leaves a window if his opening harass didnt do damage.
On November 18 2007 12:46 liosama wrote: also bisu's reaver drop did jack all, when it should have. I don't get why reaver ai is dumbed down when the mine is perfect, and it comes from a unit which is at a much earlier tech than the reaver.
the reaver would be very imba if it had perfect AI. The vulture is weak, its mines can't directly attack workers, and it can't move by itself so no, sc isn't imba because of this reaver-vulture comparison of your's.
yeah but vultures themselves attack workers with 2 shots killing one, so a dropship of 4 vultures can do alot of harm (assuming the same kind of defence with respective bases). I'm not really saying it's imba but it hurts to see a player go 200/200 on a reaver that doesn't do shit to the economy, when a dorp of 4*75 vultures is more likely to do something
On November 18 2007 11:20 teamsolid wrote: Game 3: Again, one small micro mistake by Bisu at a crucial moment completely turned that game around that isn't even obvious unless you watch closely. This is the beauty of SC.
At this point it was exactly 3 tanks, 2 vults and 2 marines vs 5 goons + 2 zealots. Normally, I think the Toss would come out on top with these two armies.
At 7:45, Bisu saw a mine get planted down below his troops, but he misclicked when he tried to target it (or it sunk into the ground before he could react in time), and this resulted in 2 zealots and 2 goons charging towards it and splashing all 4 units with the mine + taking out a goon. Furthermore, if the zealots hadn't been damaged by the mine, it would've caused a perfect mine drag at 7:48/9:48 on the rine/vult group of Mind's as it walked over. If that mine hadn't gone off at exactly that moment, I am sure that Bisu would've repelled that push without having to pull/lose any probes and giving him a huge advantage rather than mind (2 base vs 1).
Anyways, both players up to that point had virtually flawless micro and Mind had Boxer-esque mine placement, but I thought it was amazing how that one little mistake was the turning point that led to a cascade of events that ultimately ended in his loss.
This is exactly right. Mind would not have won the Python game if Bisu had not made that fatal error. It's rude to not give a champion his due, but there is no arguing the Python game. Bisu was in a winning position and a single misclick turned the series.
Game one was a combo of below-average control by Bisu and "lucky" mines by Mind. I put lucky in quotes because Mind wasn't laying mines by accident so he was creating the opportunity for them to do a lot of damage. However, the mines punished Bisu's below-average control more than usual while tanks continued to survive. Mind's timing was not amazing. It was pretty straightforward. His strategy was not genius. His push was what a Terran is obligated to do when a Protoss does minimal harrass damage and then starts a third nexus. He ventured out to see if he could maybe kill a Nexus or open a vulture raid opportunity and then Bisu ran a million zealots into his mines.
I think Mind deserves credit for the Loki game. It may have only worked out so well for him because of the momentum of the series, but he still deserves credit if that's the case. Bisu was playing poorly, but as Mind stated in the interview, it was his plan to force Bisu to make errors in the Loki game. Still Bisu was making unforced errors as well.
In summary, Bisu was absolutely not strategically dominated. His strategies were fine and Mind's were nothing special. Bisu would have won 3-0 if he played with a level of unit control and macro that he has displayed in the past.
Nony all your points are agreeable except the very last sentence. It's pretty ridiculous to simply say "oh player A would have beaten player B 3-0 if played at his usual skill."
Bisu could have played poorly because he was under pressure to win his third title and keep the "bonjwa" thing going on. Mind had honestly nothing to lose.
Yeah, I admit the fact that Bisu DID play worse than he usually does, but that never means he would have dominated if he hadn't. You just never know...
edit- you just seem a little too biased especially with the other quotes like this one I stumbled across
On November 18 2007 09:24 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Adding in Hts with zealots is not a bad idea at all. The reason bisu choose not to I imagine is simply because he didnt have a whole lot of gas and it would've been difficult for him to stop his HTs from being picked off in that situation. Other than that point, I mainly agree. Bisu did NOT play bad. It's like this whenever a new player comes onto the scene unless they are good looking. Its pathetic how vain TL is regarding bw players honestly. A non good looking player will get no credit for their skill. For example, darkelf is actually a very strong solid T user now and people still talk about him like hes a complete newb and an auto win simply because he has no charisma. Same applied/applies to Mind. Mind might be plain, but he is very good. Comparable to goodfriend, but far better. He has brilliant macro/game management style play. The hardest play style to beat.
100% Agreed.
I'm also glad that Mind fucking raped that greedy early expo style shit Bisu has been getting away with. Besides Iris, looks like this is the only other Terran player willing to NOT early expo and just stop that crap.
I think Bisu didn't play bad, but he did play really really different. He played too standard and also wanted to break every single push right away without waiting till the last second how he usually does... he usually will pull back and pull back and pull back till the last second but in those games he didn't play like that so I dunno
bullshit mind played better than bisu. if bisu made mistakes, they were a result of mind's actions. mind played better than bisu and forced those mistakes. i wouldn't be surprised if mind beats bisu if they played on a different day.
EPT
Mind's early push in game1 was extremely impressive though, excellent tank/mine placement and vulture micro. 
