EPT[MSL finals spoiler] Bisu's play
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Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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yubee
United States3826 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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GTR
51469 Posts
The Bisu lovers are just saying he played bad, but he got beaten mind (no pun intended) wise. First Game - Bisu went for a triple expo (?) because he thought Mind would turtle up. Mind ran over Bisu with a timing push. Second Game - No Comment Third Game - Double Nexus was a risk Bisu was willing to take. Mind went 2 fac with his sense. Fourth Game - Yeh. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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relaxxl
Japan78 Posts
P.S. Why arent the VOD's up yet? | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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relaxxl
Japan78 Posts
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
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Yaqoob
Canada3330 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
Game 1 his attacks on Mind's units were very poorly executed, and taking that gas third instead of the island knowing a timing attack was coming was a greivous error. Game 2, whatever. Bisu proxied because he has a history of losing on Blue Storm. No big deal. Game 3, wow. The attack on Mind's nat was such a poor decision. Without that huge loss of units, he probably could have gotten himself at least even, what with Mind taking his third instead of immediately attacking. More horrible push attack execution. Game 4, Bisu obviously thought Mind was going to do something stupid with marines, but he guessed wrong, and Mind was very far ahead from his conservative macro build. However, there was a point where BIsu had reduced Mind to one mining base, and had a group of dragoons as well as his seven carriers. Unfortunately, Mind's units approached Bisu's goons, and instead of bringing the carriers back and killing Mind's attack (which would have sealed the game in Bisu's favor), he chose to kill an armory and let all of his dragoons melt under tank fire. Poor choice! Mad props to Mind for going from the first qualification round to winning the final, beating oov and savior and such to get there, but yes Bisu played very bad. He lost the series more than Mind won it, despite Mind's solid builds and good execution. | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
Obviously the thing that surprises most is what gets talked about, and Bisu playing poorly is much more surprising than a mechanically solid Terran capitalizing on it. | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
I also think Mind played spectacularly well. No single mistake, except in game 2. Various, well-executed builds, excellent timing/execution, and flawless macro. He deserves it well. | ||
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SonuvBob
Aiur21549 Posts
On November 18 2007 09:32 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: However, there was a point where BIsu had reduced Mind to one mining base, and had a group of dragoons as well as his seven carriers. Unfortunately, Mind's units approached Bisu's goons, and instead of bringing the carriers back and killing Mind's attack (which would have sealed the game in Bisu's favor), he chose to kill an armory and let all of his dragoons melt under tank fire. Poor choice! This pissed me off so much, horrible decision by Bisu. It also led to his carriers getting torn up by cloaked wraiths since his obs was w/his army (Mind did a good job of raping observers that game though). | ||
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Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
 Yeah, mind played well, but I was set on bisu completing his hattrick. | ||
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FreeDoM[YA]
Canada855 Posts
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HaXxorIzed
Australia8434 Posts
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
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shmay
United States1091 Posts
i think had he gotten mass goons and few zealots he would have easily repelled the attack overall, like honesttea said, he thought too much. he fell back on crutches in games 3 and 4 (dts and carriers). he lost his innovative adaptive instincts, and went for safe builds that have won him games before. also that invasion of mind's nat with his first ground forces was really stupid. obviously its easy to be the monday morning quarterback and i don't want to take anything away from mind because he was on top of his shit, but bisu in many ways beat himself | ||
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Darkmole
United States900 Posts
Mind out macro Bisu Mind out played Bisu That is wat i think and copied from some1 dont remember who :D | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
At 7:45-7:47 here: (or 9:45-9:47 in the .ogm video), At this point it was exactly 3 tanks, 1 vult and 2 marines vs 5 goons + 2 zealots. Normally, I think the Toss would come out on top with these two armies. At 7:45, Bisu saw a mine get planted down below his troops, but he misclicked when he tried to target it (or it sunk into the ground before he could react in time), and this resulted in 2 zealots and 2 goons charging towards it and splashing all 4 units with the mine + taking out a goon. Furthermore, if the zealots hadn't been damaged by the mine, it would've caused a perfect mine drag at 7:48/9:48 on the rine/vult group of Mind's as it walked over. If that mine hadn't gone off at exactly that moment, I am absolutely sure that Bisu would've repelled that push without having to pull/lose any probes, thus giving him a huge advantage rather than mind (2 base vs 1). Anyways, both players up to that point had virtually flawless micro and Mind had Boxer-esque mine placement, but I thought it was amazing how that one little mistake was the turning point that led to a cascade of events that ultimately ended in his loss. | ||
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IaniAniaN
Canada555 Posts
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EpiK
Korea (South)5757 Posts
On November 18 2007 11:32 IaniAniaN wrote: I don't know much about Stork's PvT, but does anyone this stork could have won against Mind? no. Well, depends on how many mistakes he makes, he's less consistent than bisu imo. the battle at nat in game3 was horrible.. It's amazing how one small micro mistake on bisu's part cost him the game Mind's early push in game1 was extremely impressive though, excellent tank/mine placement and vulture micro. | ||
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JoMal
Trinidad/Tobago1177 Posts
On November 18 2007 11:32 IaniAniaN wrote: I don't know much about Stork's PvT, but does anyone this stork could have won against Mind? Hells Yeah ! | ||
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Nick_54
United States2230 Posts
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
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liosama
Australia843 Posts
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EpiK
Korea (South)5757 Posts
On November 18 2007 12:46 liosama wrote: also bisu's reaver drop did jack all, when it should have. I don't get why reaver ai is dumbed down when the mine is perfect, and it comes from a unit which is at a much earlier tech than the reaver. the reaver would be very imba if it had perfect AI. The vulture is weak, its mines can't directly attack workers, and it can't move by itself so no, sc isn't imba because of this reaver-vulture comparison of your's. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On November 18 2007 11:59 Jyvblamo wrote: Stork is even worse at defending against timing pushes, if his series versus Iris is anything to go by. 2 fac rush and timing push are very different things stork is quite a bit better vs timing pushes, normally, because he plays greedier opening builds but safer into the mid game. bisu opens reaver/dt drop and later expo, then makes up for it by taking his 2nd/3rd expos a bit quicker than he should. that leaves a window if his opening harass didnt do damage. | ||
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liosama
Australia843 Posts
On November 18 2007 13:00 EpiK wrote: the reaver would be very imba if it had perfect AI. The vulture is weak, its mines can't directly attack workers, and it can't move by itself so no, sc isn't imba because of this reaver-vulture comparison of your's. yeah but vultures themselves attack workers with 2 shots killing one, so a dropship of 4 vultures can do alot of harm (assuming the same kind of defence with respective bases). I'm not really saying it's imba but it hurts to see a player go 200/200 on a reaver that doesn't do shit to the economy, when a dorp of 4*75 vultures is more likely to do something | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
On November 18 2007 11:20 teamsolid wrote: Game 3: Again, one small micro mistake by Bisu at a crucial moment completely turned that game around that isn't even obvious unless you watch closely. This is the beauty of SC. At 7:45-7:47 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-Tr8MlZdKI& (or 9:45-9:47 in the .ogm video), At this point it was exactly 3 tanks, 2 vults and 2 marines vs 5 goons + 2 zealots. Normally, I think the Toss would come out on top with these two armies. At 7:45, Bisu saw a mine get planted down below his troops, but he misclicked when he tried to target it (or it sunk into the ground before he could react in time), and this resulted in 2 zealots and 2 goons charging towards it and splashing all 4 units with the mine + taking out a goon. Furthermore, if the zealots hadn't been damaged by the mine, it would've caused a perfect mine drag at 7:48/9:48 on the rine/vult group of Mind's as it walked over. If that mine hadn't gone off at exactly that moment, I am sure that Bisu would've repelled that push without having to pull/lose any probes and giving him a huge advantage rather than mind (2 base vs 1). Anyways, both players up to that point had virtually flawless micro and Mind had Boxer-esque mine placement, but I thought it was amazing how that one little mistake was the turning point that led to a cascade of events that ultimately ended in his loss. This is exactly right. Mind would not have won the Python game if Bisu had not made that fatal error. It's rude to not give a champion his due, but there is no arguing the Python game. Bisu was in a winning position and a single misclick turned the series. Game one was a combo of below-average control by Bisu and "lucky" mines by Mind. I put lucky in quotes because Mind wasn't laying mines by accident so he was creating the opportunity for them to do a lot of damage. However, the mines punished Bisu's below-average control more than usual while tanks continued to survive. Mind's timing was not amazing. It was pretty straightforward. His strategy was not genius. His push was what a Terran is obligated to do when a Protoss does minimal harrass damage and then starts a third nexus. He ventured out to see if he could maybe kill a Nexus or open a vulture raid opportunity and then Bisu ran a million zealots into his mines. I think Mind deserves credit for the Loki game. It may have only worked out so well for him because of the momentum of the series, but he still deserves credit if that's the case. Bisu was playing poorly, but as Mind stated in the interview, it was his plan to force Bisu to make errors in the Loki game. Still Bisu was making unforced errors as well. In summary, Bisu was absolutely not strategically dominated. His strategies were fine and Mind's were nothing special. Bisu would have won 3-0 if he played with a level of unit control and macro that he has displayed in the past. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
Bisu could have played poorly because he was under pressure to win his third title and keep the "bonjwa" thing going on. Mind had honestly nothing to lose. Yeah, I admit the fact that Bisu DID play worse than he usually does, but that never means he would have dominated if he hadn't. You just never know... edit- you just seem a little too biased especially with the other quotes like this one I stumbled across On November 18 2007 05:47 NonY[rC] wrote: mind was on the other computer when bisu was playing poorly. so technically, yeah, he beat him | ||
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MoNKeYSpanKeR
United States2869 Posts
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ray1234
Canada679 Posts
just admit mind outplayed bisu heads up. end of story | ||
Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On November 18 2007 09:24 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Adding in Hts with zealots is not a bad idea at all. The reason bisu choose not to I imagine is simply because he didnt have a whole lot of gas and it would've been difficult for him to stop his HTs from being picked off in that situation. Other than that point, I mainly agree. Bisu did NOT play bad. It's like this whenever a new player comes onto the scene unless they are good looking. Its pathetic how vain TL is regarding bw players honestly. A non good looking player will get no credit for their skill. For example, darkelf is actually a very strong solid T user now and people still talk about him like hes a complete newb and an auto win simply because he has no charisma. Same applied/applies to Mind. Mind might be plain, but he is very good. Comparable to goodfriend, but far better. He has brilliant macro/game management style play. The hardest play style to beat. 100% Agreed. I'm also glad that Mind fucking raped that greedy early expo style shit Bisu has been getting away with. Besides Iris, looks like this is the only other Terran player willing to NOT early expo and just stop that crap. | ||
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InfeSteD
United States4658 Posts
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ItchReliever
2489 Posts
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IaniAniaN
Canada555 Posts
However, I have another theory on that game. Anyone remember Cananta vs Bisu in his first MSL? He knew Canata was going to turtle like crazy so he just did an FE and lost nothing on it, I think he came to the conclusion that Mind was going to play a highly turtleish anti-harass style and he could afford to FE, unfortunately for him Mind went highly aggressive. Game 4 just looked like a cluster fuck, I wasn't paying too much attention but it seemed Mind had in mind not to throw the map because it was imbalanced and Bisu played as expected of any Protoss and payed for it. It's a shame Bisu didn't make any disruption webs though, that would have been pretty sexy, What do you guys think of how Mind built so many depots in his push to slow down the zeals? That was pretty cool, he made no mistakes there, and meticulously designed that labyrinth for Bisu. It seemed like the entire purpose of his long slow pushes was to break momentum even if he lost an army Bisu couldn't go off to pillage anything as he would lose goons to tanks and mines sporadically placed in his way. Doesn't anyone think Bisu has looked differently lately? He seems to frown a lot more these days, he looked more relaxed in his first season while getting the same results. Well, I hope he defeats this Mind character in their next meeting and elevates his game and style. | ||
Sigrun
United States1655 Posts
On November 18 2007 16:50 IaniAniaN wrote: Doesn't anyone think Bisu has looked differently lately? He seems to frown a lot more these days, he looked more relaxed in his first season while getting the same results. Well, I hope he defeats this Mind character in their next meeting and elevates his game and style. His look reminds me a lot of Savor to be honest (at least the tired dead look when he played Bisu the first time). | ||
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NovaTheFeared
United States7224 Posts
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gameguard
Korea (South)2132 Posts
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EpiK
Korea (South)5757 Posts
On November 18 2007 17:57 gameguard wrote: game 4 was just brilliant by mind. His decision to go for wraiths from 1 port to counter carriers was tight. He pushed carriers back with some wraiths and simply rolled over bisu with his whole ground force. Also his freakishly good timing with the goliaths... Mind had goliaths ready even without scouting the carriers out. His timing was that good. I cried and laughed at the same time when bisu's last carrier was running away from some goliaths to meet another group of goliaths, then he shifts direction to meet some more.. Nada wasn't lying when he said mind's tvp was godlike. | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
On November 18 2007 18:14 EpiK wrote: Also his freakishly good timing with the goliaths... Mind had goliaths ready even without scouting the carriers out. His timing was that good. I cried and laughed at the same time when bisu's last carrier was running away from some goliaths to meet another group of goliaths, then he shifts direction to meet some more.. Nada wasn't lying when he said mind's tvp was godlike. He did scan the carriers. Ungodly scan timing though. Right when the stargates finish warping in and the commentator goes to focus on it, Mind's comsat appears. Crazy. | ||
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IaniAniaN
Canada555 Posts
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NonY
8748 Posts
On November 18 2007 17:33 NovaTheFeared wrote: Mind outplayed Bisu with timing in game 1, with micro in game 3, and with strategy in game 4. This is so wrong and there have already been good posts to the contrary so I don't know why you'd post this. The only thing that could make up for it was if you were a good player, but since you suck, your post sucks. | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On November 18 2007 09:32 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Yes, Bisu played bad Game 1 his attacks on Mind's units were very poorly executed, and taking that gas third instead of the island knowing a timing attack was coming was a greivous error. Game 2, whatever. Bisu proxied because he has a history of losing on Blue Storm. No big deal. Game 3, wow. The attack on Mind's nat was such a poor decision. Without that huge loss of units, he probably could have gotten himself at least even, what with Mind taking his third instead of immediately attacking. More horrible push attack execution. Game 4, Bisu obviously thought Mind was going to do something stupid with marines, but he guessed wrong, and Mind was very far ahead from his conservative macro build. However, there was a point where BIsu had reduced Mind to one mining base, and had a group of dragoons as well as his seven carriers. Unfortunately, Mind's units approached Bisu's goons, and instead of bringing the carriers back and killing Mind's attack (which would have sealed the game in Bisu's favor), he chose to kill an armory and let all of his dragoons melt under tank fire. Poor choice! Mad props to Mind for going from the first qualification round to winning the final, beating oov and savior and such to get there, but yes Bisu played very bad. He lost the series more than Mind won it, despite Mind's solid builds and good execution. Fakesteve summed up my thoughts pretty well. I'd also like to add that in Game 4 his counterattack on mind's base (while mind pushed on bisu's) was a poor decision. He would have been a lot better off had he saved his ground army for use alongside carriers, rather than separating them. Doing so would have given him a good chance of winning. Although to be fair, Mind pretty much always played the perfect response to every build and event that took place. I cannot remember any single significant mistake, and his timing and decision-making were impeccable. It goes without saying that Bisu should have and is capable of playing better than that. His decision-making abilities were below his average, his control was sloppy at times, and in game 4 he was at times in the position to showcase his excellent attacking abilities but instead made a few game-defining mistakes. | ||
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UbRi
Italy603 Posts
Game1: You all said it, awesome timing, still bisu at first seemed to be almost able to take that forces out, so micro and exectuion played a major part into this. If i can point out a mistake by Bisu's side, imho, he could have tried to use more his reaver, once he saw the mineral line was protected he could have hit Mind buildings, just to force him to use his units and maybe delay his timing a bit. I also noticed a nice BO by mind which i would like to point out: right after siege is done and a 2nd fact is building (together with an eng bay) he starts vult speed research, and only after he makes a 3rd factory, he does tanks with a factory and vults with the other while the 3rd is building, after speed research he researches mines, and before it's completed he start scouting with 4 speed vults, which would have been probably able to go through a goon wall, had bisu set up any. In this way he spotted bisu 3rd nex and he could time his attack perfectly, and he didn't waste moneys building an accademy, I know this may seem trivial because it's not anything new, or either seem a countless particular, but that fast vult tech is what imho put Mind in condition to do such an attack. Game2: no comment Game3: Mind was ahead of Bisu after the beginning, but not THAT much, what put him really behind instead, was that attack he made to the Mind's tank cluster, counting on the fact that vults weren't there (they were following a shuttle). That attack turned out to be a semi-massacre, Mind did simply counterattack then, I don't think timing was involved in this game Game4: Until Mind push begins nothing worth being mentioned, I think Bisu strategy wasn't bad till then, I don't think his counterattack on minds base was theorically a poor decision, it turned out to be a poor decision because, for reasons which are still not clear to me, Mind decided not to make any goliath, instead he kept on pumping out ground army, my supposition is that Mind counted on the surprise effect of his wraiths just to gain an "extra ground army pumping time", I could think he knew that bisu would have counterattacked thinkin he would have faced an almost pure goliath force, and while bisu's carriers, after getting rid of the 1st wave, were dealing with wraiths, he could have destroyed all his expansions with that extra army, that would have been a freaky game vision by Mind side. For sure, once he saw mind was prepared, Bisu could have moved back his army, still the major part of his zealots ran onto mines before he could decide to go back, I just can say that Mind took a huge risk in this game in not making goliath at that point, since bisu's fleet was growing bigger, had he not lost his ground army and his resources maybe the game could have gone another way. Overall Bisu didn't play bad, but Mind played perfectly, Bisu just made a mistake, (sometimes very hard to detect like in game 1) for each game he lost. | ||
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liosama
Australia843 Posts
On November 18 2007 16:50 IaniAniaN wrote: Bisu played so well on that Python game and lost because of something tiny, he played a very high risk style and it didn't pay off I guess. I absolutely loved the zealot scout deny and how many vultures he managed to off in the initial push without losing anything to the them. Sure he could have perhaps won it with a different build, but he was so close there's now doubt he pulled it off many times in practice. Yeah that zealot deny, so so pro, (possible PP?). The funny thing about that though is, because he was so sure on denying that scout, it would have given mind an idea on what he was trying to do. Even though mind said in the interview he wasn't sure if it was gate into nexus or whatever. Still pro. I don't see why everyone isn't making a comment for game2, it was pretty awesome, mind played well there he almost had a chance at some point. | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 19 2007 07:00 UbRi wrote: Overall Bisu didn't play bad Yeah, he did. Those are amateurish mistakes we expect Bisu not to make. | ||
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Hittegods
Stockholm4641 Posts
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dO_ov
United States190 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13036 Posts
First game Bisu could have won with better push breaking. He lost way too many zeals to mines at a critical moment during Mind's push that cost him. Game 3 - people make too much of Bisu attacking Mind near the end. Bisu was too far behind after Mind's successful Joyo rush and he needed to do something or he was going to die a slow death. You could see he tried to separate Mind's forces by faking out with the shuttle at Mind's main. He simply had too many units and would have won that game regardless. As soon as that 2 CC was finished he was going to push Bisu and he wouldn't of been able to defend. Game 4 - Bisu just made some bad decisions at crucial times. If he brought back his units after countering Mind's 4 CC or even brought back his cars after killing his back nat, he could have won. In saying this though, Mind's wraiths were crucial this game. They stopped Bisu's ability to counter with the carriers and let his land blob mop up Bisu's weak ground forces and undefended expos. Overall a good series I think. Players were very close in skill and Mind was just better on the day. | ||
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Diggity
United States806 Posts
Seems like both Savior and Bisu weren't comfortable in their standard successful builds against mind. Never the less, it doesn't matter how bisu played, Mind played fantastically and he deserves the championship. | ||
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EpiK
Korea (South)5757 Posts
On November 19 2007 09:12 Diggity wrote: Never the less, it doesn't matter how bisu players, Mind played fantastically and he deserves the championship. QFT | ||
zatic
Zurich15345 Posts
Quote from Hwasin vs Bisu by Oxygen "But Bisu is a fucking leprechaun - he pulls shit out of his ass and rips Hwasin a new one out of nowhere. I have re-watched the battle about a dozen times now and I still can't figure out how he did it." When I watched that game I thougth how to hell is any terran supposed to win against Bisu if their tanks just seem to be made out of paper and mass-explode as soon as bisu's Zealots charge in? This time it was kind of the opposite. Mass-Zealots charge in, all kinds of shit explodes and blows up, tanks fire everywhere, mines go off, and 2 seconds later everything is dead and in shreds - everything except all of Mind's tanks! This time I had to watch the battle again because I couldn't believe it. This is just an observation so I don't really care WHY the one battle went this way, the other that way. It's just one of the beautiful moments in starcraft watching when all I can think of is "wow!". | ||
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