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Active: 710 users

Does FlaSh owe his success to picking Terran?

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 Next All
jinjin5000
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1422 Posts
May 27 2023 16:19 GMT
#1
Shinokuki
Profile Joined July 2013
United States859 Posts
May 27 2023 16:48 GMT
#2
Pretty true. Flash random got to semifinals with random and only got blocked by soma (who IMO should've been winner if there were no disconnect)
Life is just life
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10139 Posts
May 27 2023 17:26 GMT
#3
Mans spitting facts here compared to the Protoss Bonjwa video IMO. I do believe that Terran lends itself better to superior play than P or Z, but the superior play is the crux of the issue. In 2010, Flash was a better player than any other by a mile and a half. As a Bisu fan, sad but true.

Could Flash have done the things Bisu did in PvZ? Hell no. But could Bisu have done what Flash did in every TvX MU? Also hell-fucking-no.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2678 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-05-27 18:42:57
May 27 2023 18:37 GMT
#4
I dont understand his logic. How does him improving 4 years after debut have anything to do with the accusation that he wouldn't be where he is with Z or P? The former certainly doesn't explain the latter. I mean, who doesn't improve after their debut?

I'm tired of these clips where Flash makes a statement then proceeds to "explain" it by spitting something that doesn't explain it at all.

To sum up my thoughts though:
- Is Tesagi true? Yes.
- Is Flash helped by Tesagi. Obviously.
- Is Flash still the GOAT given that Tesagi is true? Still. You can't change history.
- Would Flash still be the GOAT had he played Zerg or Protoss? No. He'd be the Maru and JD'd be the Serral, or something like that.
jinjin5000
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1422 Posts
May 27 2023 18:40 GMT
#5
On May 28 2023 03:37 TMNT wrote:
I dont understand his logic. How does him improving 4 years after debut have anything to do with the accusation that he wouldn't be where he is with Z or P? The former certainly doesn't explain the latter. I mean, who doesn't improve after their debut?

I'm tired of these clips where Flash makes a statement then proceeds to "explain" it by spitting something that doesn't explain it at all.


responds....
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2678 Posts
May 27 2023 18:44 GMT
#6
On May 28 2023 03:40 jinjin5000 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2023 03:37 TMNT wrote:
I dont understand his logic. How does him improving 4 years after debut have anything to do with the accusation that he wouldn't be where he is with Z or P? The former certainly doesn't explain the latter. I mean, who doesn't improve after their debut?

I'm tired of these clips where Flash makes a statement then proceeds to "explain" it by spitting something that doesn't explain it at all.


responds....

Oh yeah I'm aware of that. It's Flash's fault, not yours. I don't mean to complain about the video maker. Just kinda disappointed with his responds.
Shinokuki
Profile Joined July 2013
United States859 Posts
May 27 2023 18:48 GMT
#7
On May 28 2023 03:37 TMNT wrote:
I dont understand his logic. How does him improving 4 years after debut have anything to do with the accusation that he wouldn't be where he is with Z or P? The former certainly doesn't explain the latter. I mean, who doesn't improve after their debut?

I'm tired of these clips where Flash makes a statement then proceeds to "explain" it by spitting something that doesn't explain it at all.

To sum up my thoughts though:
- Is Tesagi true? Yes.
- Is Flash helped by Tesagi. Obviously.
- Is Flash still the GOAT given that Tesagi is true? Still. You can't change history.
- Would Flash still be the GOAT had he played Zerg or Protoss? No. He'd be the Maru and JD'd be the Serral, or something like that.


I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating
Life is just life
Puosu
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
6985 Posts
May 27 2023 19:19 GMT
#8
Isn't the take away message here that, rather than thinking about tesagi/pusagi/zesagi, we should instill a culture of praising good performance and criticizing bad performance?

sounds smart
Malongo
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Chile3472 Posts
May 27 2023 19:35 GMT
#9
On May 28 2023 03:37 TMNT wrote:
I dont understand his logic. How does him improving 4 years after debut have anything to do with the accusation that he wouldn't be where he is with Z or P? The former certainly doesn't explain the latter. I mean, who doesn't improve after their debut?

I'm tired of these clips where Flash makes a statement then proceeds to "explain" it by spitting something that doesn't explain it at all.

To sum up my thoughts though:
- Is Tesagi true? Yes.
- Is Flash helped by Tesagi. Obviously.
- Is Flash still the GOAT given that Tesagi is true? Still. You can't change history.
- Would Flash still be the GOAT had he played Zerg or Protoss? No. He'd be the Maru and JD'd be the Serral, or something like that.


This is a pretty accurate summary.
Help me! im still improving my English. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. M. G.
TornadoSteve
Profile Joined March 2018
1016 Posts
May 27 2023 19:51 GMT
#10
On May 28 2023 03:48 Shinokuki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2023 03:37 TMNT wrote:
I dont understand his logic. How does him improving 4 years after debut have anything to do with the accusation that he wouldn't be where he is with Z or P? The former certainly doesn't explain the latter. I mean, who doesn't improve after their debut?

I'm tired of these clips where Flash makes a statement then proceeds to "explain" it by spitting something that doesn't explain it at all.

To sum up my thoughts though:
- Is Tesagi true? Yes.
- Is Flash helped by Tesagi. Obviously.
- Is Flash still the GOAT given that Tesagi is true? Still. You can't change history.
- Would Flash still be the GOAT had he played Zerg or Protoss? No. He'd be the Maru and JD'd be the Serral, or something like that.


I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating


No doubt, his return helped. A lot.
Last was doing a pretty decent job at that point, though.


TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2678 Posts
May 27 2023 20:11 GMT
#11
On May 28 2023 03:48 Shinokuki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2023 03:37 TMNT wrote:
I dont understand his logic. How does him improving 4 years after debut have anything to do with the accusation that he wouldn't be where he is with Z or P? The former certainly doesn't explain the latter. I mean, who doesn't improve after their debut?

I'm tired of these clips where Flash makes a statement then proceeds to "explain" it by spitting something that doesn't explain it at all.

To sum up my thoughts though:
- Is Tesagi true? Yes.
- Is Flash helped by Tesagi. Obviously.
- Is Flash still the GOAT given that Tesagi is true? Still. You can't change history.
- Would Flash still be the GOAT had he played Zerg or Protoss? No. He'd be the Maru and JD'd be the Serral, or something like that.


I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating

Tesagi for me is short for Terran being the strongest race at pro level. I think many others agree too.

But not everyone is smart/knowledgable enough.There will be people who call Tesagi at every level, and there will be people claiming Protoss is easiest at top levels. You can't stop that.
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-05-27 21:06:41
May 27 2023 21:00 GMT
#12
Ive stated this before, even if T is on paper the stronger race, noone is capable of utilizing it because it requires perfect execution to dominate. This means there are a few guys left who can play decent Terran and look unstoppable but rest looks like noobs. Its also why Terran hands breaks down and throwing in the towel before youre completely screwed and need surgery.

Edit: Or give in and start playing Protoss
-.-
Shinokuki
Profile Joined July 2013
United States859 Posts
May 27 2023 21:17 GMT
#13
On May 28 2023 04:51 TornadoSteve wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2023 03:48 Shinokuki wrote:
On May 28 2023 03:37 TMNT wrote:
I dont understand his logic. How does him improving 4 years after debut have anything to do with the accusation that he wouldn't be where he is with Z or P? The former certainly doesn't explain the latter. I mean, who doesn't improve after their debut?

I'm tired of these clips where Flash makes a statement then proceeds to "explain" it by spitting something that doesn't explain it at all.

To sum up my thoughts though:
- Is Tesagi true? Yes.
- Is Flash helped by Tesagi. Obviously.
- Is Flash still the GOAT given that Tesagi is true? Still. You can't change history.
- Would Flash still be the GOAT had he played Zerg or Protoss? No. He'd be the Maru and JD'd be the Serral, or something like that.


I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating


No doubt, his return helped. A lot.
Last was doing a pretty decent job at that point, though.




Last literally copied flash's style and last himself said he studied flash fpvod..
Life is just life
Shinokuki
Profile Joined July 2013
United States859 Posts
May 27 2023 21:18 GMT
#14
On May 28 2023 05:11 TMNT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2023 03:48 Shinokuki wrote:
On May 28 2023 03:37 TMNT wrote:
I dont understand his logic. How does him improving 4 years after debut have anything to do with the accusation that he wouldn't be where he is with Z or P? The former certainly doesn't explain the latter. I mean, who doesn't improve after their debut?

I'm tired of these clips where Flash makes a statement then proceeds to "explain" it by spitting something that doesn't explain it at all.

To sum up my thoughts though:
- Is Tesagi true? Yes.
- Is Flash helped by Tesagi. Obviously.
- Is Flash still the GOAT given that Tesagi is true? Still. You can't change history.
- Would Flash still be the GOAT had he played Zerg or Protoss? No. He'd be the Maru and JD'd be the Serral, or something like that.


I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating

Tesagi for me is short for Terran being the strongest race at pro level. I think many others agree too.

But not everyone is smart/knowledgable enough.There will be people who call Tesagi at every level, and there will be people claiming Protoss is easiest at top levels. You can't stop that.


Tesagi was only achieved ~1.8 year after flash came back and started pumping out builds after builds and optimizing it. Weren't you aware of the scene that came before flash came? T was failing hard. Heck even shuttle won ASL lol
Life is just life
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2678 Posts
May 27 2023 21:20 GMT
#15
On May 28 2023 04:19 Puosu wrote:
Isn't the take away message here that, rather than thinking about tesagi/pusagi/zesagi, we should instill a culture of praising good performance and criticizing bad performance?

sounds smart

That is a valid point he made. In fact we lost Last partly due to fans (or anti-fans) drowning him with Tesagi comments.

But then again, Flash was also partly responsible for sending Jangbi to his father's factories, only because he didn't mention his name when praising other pros. So...
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2678 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-05-27 23:29:51
May 27 2023 23:27 GMT
#16
I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating

I mean, Bisu is still dominating Mong Rush and Mind right now. He's not known for his PvT but still easily top 3 PvT at any given time. So I'm not sure Bisu dominating those guys means anything.

On May 28 2023 06:18 Shinokuki wrote:
Tesagi was only achieved ~1.8 year after flash came back and started pumping out builds after builds and optimizing it. Weren't you aware of the scene that came before flash came? T was failing hard. Heck even shuttle won ASL lol

The post-Kespa pre-ASL era is somewhat a chaotic era at pro level, as some were still playing SC2, some were in the military, some went into (temporary) retirement, and some just hadn't found their form back. So I wouldn't read too much into it.

That said, I don't think Terran was dogshit during that time. Here's the last 3 SonicTV Starleague (2014-2015): 9th 10th 11th. Terran occupied 9 out of 24 places in Ro8, 5 out of 12 places in Ro4, and 2 out of 6 places in finals. Not bad at all.

Mind also won this pre-ASL tournament and Terran still occupied 3 places in the Ro8 of the VANT Starleague (ASL0).

Terran also occupied 5 places in the Ro8 of ASL1 - the one that Shuttle won. Make no mistake, I made fun about Shuttle as well but he was a much better player in the early ASL seasons compared to post-military Shuttle. Somehow this resembles ASL15 where there were 5 Zergs but an unlikely winner (JYJ) took the crown.

So in general I think you're overrating how bad Terran was back then. It's pretty much akin to seeing Terran getting battered by Snow right now and think most of them are dogshit.

jinjin5000
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1422 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-05-27 23:29:29
May 27 2023 23:28 GMT
#17
On May 28 2023 08:27 TMNT wrote:
Show nested quote +
I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating

I mean, Bisu is still dominating Mong Rush and Mind right now. He's not known for his PvT but still easily top 3 PvT at any given time. So I'm not sure Bisu dominating those guys means anything.

Show nested quote +
On May 28 2023 06:18 Shinokuki wrote:
Tesagi was only achieved ~1.8 year after flash came back and started pumping out builds after builds and optimizing it. Weren't you aware of the scene that came before flash came? T was failing hard. Heck even shuttle won ASL lol

The post-Kespa prior-ASL era is somewhat a chaotic era at pro level, as some were still playing SC2, some were in the military, some went into (temporary) retirement, and some just hadn't found their form back. So I wouldn't read too much into it.

That said, I don't think Terran was dogshit during that time. Here's the last 3 SonicTV Starleague (2014-2015): 9th 10th 11th. Terran occupied 9 out of 24 places in Ro8, 5 out of 12 places in Ro4, and 2 out of 6 places in finals. Not bad at all.

Mind also won this pre-ASL tournament and Terran still occupied 3 places in the Ro8 of the VANT Starleague (ASL0).

Terran also occupied 5 places in the Ro8 of ASL1 - the one that Shuttle won. Make no mistake, I made fun about Shuttle as well but he was a much better player in the early ASL seasons compared to post-military Shuttle.

So in general I think you're overrating how bad Terran was back then. It's pretty much akin to seeing Terran getting battered by Snow right now and think most of them are dogshit.



I recall atmosphere among community regarding terran was at pretty much all time low and lots of claiming "solved race" was being thrown about and not even flash can fix this race attitude

So exact opposite of tesagi memes the plagued at peak during flash asl dominance
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2678 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-05-27 23:35:40
May 27 2023 23:35 GMT
#18
On May 28 2023 08:28 jinjin5000 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2023 08:27 TMNT wrote:
I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating

I mean, Bisu is still dominating Mong Rush and Mind right now. He's not known for his PvT but still easily top 3 PvT at any given time. So I'm not sure Bisu dominating those guys means anything.

On May 28 2023 06:18 Shinokuki wrote:
Tesagi was only achieved ~1.8 year after flash came back and started pumping out builds after builds and optimizing it. Weren't you aware of the scene that came before flash came? T was failing hard. Heck even shuttle won ASL lol

The post-Kespa prior-ASL era is somewhat a chaotic era at pro level, as some were still playing SC2, some were in the military, some went into (temporary) retirement, and some just hadn't found their form back. So I wouldn't read too much into it.

That said, I don't think Terran was dogshit during that time. Here's the last 3 SonicTV Starleague (2014-2015): 9th 10th 11th. Terran occupied 9 out of 24 places in Ro8, 5 out of 12 places in Ro4, and 2 out of 6 places in finals. Not bad at all.

Mind also won this pre-ASL tournament and Terran still occupied 3 places in the Ro8 of the VANT Starleague (ASL0).

Terran also occupied 5 places in the Ro8 of ASL1 - the one that Shuttle won. Make no mistake, I made fun about Shuttle as well but he was a much better player in the early ASL seasons compared to post-military Shuttle.

So in general I think you're overrating how bad Terran was back then. It's pretty much akin to seeing Terran getting battered by Snow right now and think most of them are dogshit.



I recall atmosphere among community regarding terran was at pretty much all time low and lots of claiming "solved race" was being thrown about and not even flash can fix this race attitude

So exact opposite of tesagi memes the plagued at peak during flash asl dominance

I think it pretty much has something to do with Flash's (and Fantasy) absence. They were so used to Flash's dominance that when Terran was at something like 33% (representation, not win rate) that it was considered a bad time. But when you look at their results in tournaments it wasn't that bad.

It's pretty much in the same principle why Eclipse was called Pclipse but Terran still had over 50% win rate in TvP on that map.
Shinokuki
Profile Joined July 2013
United States859 Posts
May 28 2023 00:16 GMT
#19
On May 28 2023 08:27 TMNT wrote:
Show nested quote +
I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating

I mean, Bisu is still dominating Mong Rush and Mind right now. He's not known for his PvT but still easily top 3 PvT at any given time. So I'm not sure Bisu dominating those guys means anything.

Show nested quote +
On May 28 2023 06:18 Shinokuki wrote:
Tesagi was only achieved ~1.8 year after flash came back and started pumping out builds after builds and optimizing it. Weren't you aware of the scene that came before flash came? T was failing hard. Heck even shuttle won ASL lol

The post-Kespa pre-ASL era is somewhat a chaotic era at pro level, as some were still playing SC2, some were in the military, some went into (temporary) retirement, and some just hadn't found their form back. So I wouldn't read too much into it.

That said, I don't think Terran was dogshit during that time. Here's the last 3 SonicTV Starleague (2014-2015): 9th 10th 11th. Terran occupied 9 out of 24 places in Ro8, 5 out of 12 places in Ro4, and 2 out of 6 places in finals. Not bad at all.

Mind also won this pre-ASL tournament and Terran still occupied 3 places in the Ro8 of the VANT Starleague (ASL0).

Terran also occupied 5 places in the Ro8 of ASL1 - the one that Shuttle won. Make no mistake, I made fun about Shuttle as well but he was a much better player in the early ASL seasons compared to post-military Shuttle. Somehow this resembles ASL15 where there were 5 Zergs but an unlikely winner (JYJ) took the crown.

So in general I think you're overrating how bad Terran was back then. It's pretty much akin to seeing Terran getting battered by Snow right now and think most of them are dogshit.



I guess i was overrating just how bad terrans were but someone saying TESAGI just triggers me because i know what it did to last and the bw scene for a while..
Life is just life
Piste
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
6175 Posts
May 28 2023 02:16 GMT
#20
On May 28 2023 03:48 Shinokuki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2023 03:37 TMNT wrote:
I dont understand his logic. How does him improving 4 years after debut have anything to do with the accusation that he wouldn't be where he is with Z or P? The former certainly doesn't explain the latter. I mean, who doesn't improve after their debut?

I'm tired of these clips where Flash makes a statement then proceeds to "explain" it by spitting something that doesn't explain it at all.

To sum up my thoughts though:
- Is Tesagi true? Yes.
- Is Flash helped by Tesagi. Obviously.
- Is Flash still the GOAT given that Tesagi is true? Still. You can't change history.
- Would Flash still be the GOAT had he played Zerg or Protoss? No. He'd be the Maru and JD'd be the Serral, or something like that.


I hate when people say tesagi. It's like shitting on lower level players and making it even harder for terrans at 1500mmr ~ 2500 mmr level. Terran is undoubtably the hardest race at those level and it is the least played for a reason. You can't even deny the fact that flash gave away so many optimized builds and his strategy over his years streaming in afreeca. Terran was DogShIt in fish server era where Bisu was dominating everyone such as light, mong, rush, mind. It was only when flash came back when t started dominating

2500 mmr is S-tier... No dude, terran is only hardest in the beginner level. These days terran mechanics are so easy, you can produce tanks, vessels, marines, scvs, stim, siege irritiade with one single button.
Once you're at the level that you know the timings and are capable of macroing, terrans became incredibly hard to win vs.
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