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hello this is SoulKey Due to personal reasons, I will be withdrawing from SC university I wanted to solve this situation quickly and focus back into streaming and StarCraft University but It seems like it won't be resolved easily as I hoped and it seems messy on law side as well I can't continue streaming which is my livelihood not to mention focus on SC university as well I'm Sorry. Thank you to Nam-soon who listened to my situation even late night and thank you to sona who helped me out and thank you to NSU uni fans until now. I think I will be able to stream November at earliest... link: https://bj.afreecatv.com/minchul/post/93419167
It's believed that soulkey got scammed over his rent deposit this time around. In Korea, while rent is relatively cheap compared to US, they have a system where you deposit significant amount of money in rent deposit in return, often being 100k+ ($200k+ USD is average 8 years ago)
previous scam: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/570857-soulkeys-situation-asl-nonparticipation
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Maybe it's time for NeedRent[LMAO]?
On a serious note, I feel like a lot of progamers might be a bit naive/gullible and without a lot of life experience, which makes them easy targets for these sort of things :<
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How can u be so naive to get scammed twice in your life for a lot of money? I guess some need to learn the hard way.
Also 100k+ for rent deposit seems extraorbitantly high. You don't even put up 100k+ as a down payment when buying a house here in Germany most of the times. Cannot imagine someone putting down 100k+ as a rent security deposit????
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On October 18 2022 06:50 chrisolo wrote:
How can u be so naive to get scammed twice in your life for a lot of money? I guess some need to learn the hard way.
Also 100k+ for rent deposit seems extraorbitantly high. You don't even put up 100k+ as a down payment when buying a house here in Germany most of the times. Cannot imagine someone putting down 100k+ as a rent security deposit????
Seoul is crazy expensive.
Now I'm starting to understand why Do Kwon is Korean.
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it happened to so many pros, damn...
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Korea (South)11568 Posts
On October 18 2022 06:50 chrisolo wrote:
How can u be so naive to get scammed twice in your life for a lot of money? I guess some need to learn the hard way.
Also 100k+ for rent deposit seems extraorbitantly high. You don't even put up 100k+ as a down payment when buying a house here in Germany most of the times. Cannot imagine someone putting down 100k+ as a rent security deposit????
It's not mentioned how much money is involved, but Korea has main 2 systems for renting.
1) Wolse - a deposit (usually ~$10,000 for a small studio, can go up to mid-6 figures for nicer higher-end 3 or 4 bedroom apartments) and monthly payments (depending on how much your deposit is, usually $300 - $600).
2) Jeonse - Pretty much giving the landlord up to 80% of the home's value to live rent-free (excluding utilities). The average 3 bedroom apartment in Seoul costs ~ $1 Million, so this can be up to $800,000 that you give the landlord to live for 2 years. Most people take out loans to do this, as the interest is significantly cheaper than paying on a monthly basis.
At the end of the contract, the landlord must pay back the tenant the deposit / jeonse money. But as these are quite significant sums of money, many landlord use this money to invest in other properties and create, in essence, a semi-ponzi scheme. This is why it is very highly recommended that tenants also buy insurance to cover this loss, because even if you sue the landlord it's very unlikely that you get even a % of that money back.
The current economy isn't doing great, housing prices are falling, and interest rates are extraordinarily high so less new tenants to pay back old ones (with cheaper new contracts), so this is going to be more common in the near future.
It looks like SoulKey did Jeonse, so he could have very well lost a significant amount of money.
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On October 18 2022 08:11 CaucasianAsian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2022 06:50 chrisolo wrote:
How can u be so naive to get scammed twice in your life for a lot of money? I guess some need to learn the hard way.
Also 100k+ for rent deposit seems extraorbitantly high. You don't even put up 100k+ as a down payment when buying a house here in Germany most of the times. Cannot imagine someone putting down 100k+ as a rent security deposit???? It's not mentioned how much money is involved, but Korea has main 2 systems for renting. 1) Wolse - a deposit (usually ~$10,000 for a small studio, can go up to mid-6 figures for nicer higher-end 3 or 4 bedroom apartments) and monthly payments (depending on how much your deposit is, usually $300 - $600). 2) Jeonse - Pretty much giving the landlord up to 80% of the home's value to live rent-free (excluding utilities). The average 3 bedroom apartment in Seoul costs ~ $1 Million, so this can be up to $800,000 that you give the landlord to live for 2 years. Most people take out loans to do this, as the interest is significantly cheaper than paying on a monthly basis. At the end of the contract, the landlord must pay back the tenant the deposit / jeonse money. But as these are quite significant sums of money, many landlord use this money to invest in other properties and create, in essence, a semi-ponzi scheme. This is why it is very highly recommended that tenants also buy insurance to cover this loss, because even if you sue the landlord it's very unlikely that you get even a % of that money back. The current economy isn't doing great, housing prices are falling, and interest rates are extraordinarily high so less new tenants to pay back old ones (with cheaper new contracts), so this is going to be more common in the near future. It looks like SoulKey did Jeonse, so he could have very well lost a significant amount of money.
seems like a lot of people are saying its Jeonse scam
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On October 18 2022 08:11 CaucasianAsian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2022 06:50 chrisolo wrote:
How can u be so naive to get scammed twice in your life for a lot of money? I guess some need to learn the hard way.
Also 100k+ for rent deposit seems extraorbitantly high. You don't even put up 100k+ as a down payment when buying a house here in Germany most of the times. Cannot imagine someone putting down 100k+ as a rent security deposit???? It's not mentioned how much money is involved, but Korea has main 2 systems for renting. 1) Wolse - a deposit (usually ~$10,000 for a small studio, can go up to mid-6 figures for nicer higher-end 3 or 4 bedroom apartments) and monthly payments (depending on how much your deposit is, usually $300 - $600). 2) Jeonse - Pretty much giving the landlord up to 80% of the home's value to live rent-free (excluding utilities). The average 3 bedroom apartment in Seoul costs ~ $1 Million, so this can be up to $800,000 that you give the landlord to live for 2 years. Most people take out loans to do this, as the interest is significantly cheaper than paying on a monthly basis. At the end of the contract, the landlord must pay back the tenant the deposit / jeonse money. But as these are quite significant sums of money, many landlord use this money to invest in other properties and create, in essence, a semi-ponzi scheme. This is why it is very highly recommended that tenants also buy insurance to cover this loss, because even if you sue the landlord it's very unlikely that you get even a % of that money back. The current economy isn't doing great, housing prices are falling, and interest rates are extraordinarily high so less new tenants to pay back old ones (with cheaper new contracts), so this is going to be more common in the near future. It looks like SoulKey did Jeonse, so he could have very well lost a significant amount of money.
huge culture shock from reading this, it's insane to me how renters willingly take on so much risk for home owners, the big discrepancy in rent to housing prices makes sense now
it's a similar global theme tho, govs/bad leadership taking advantage/exploiting citizens (or enabling this type of behavior, same shit imo) to prop up prices.. sadly a story as old as time
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Damn soulkey didn't even get normal scammed he got systematically scammed that blows
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Russian Federation365 Posts
why not buy a house instead of renting if you still need to payback your loan you took from a bank? I dont get it. Jeonse sounds like scam from the start
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Korea (South)11568 Posts
On October 18 2022 08:58 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2022 08:11 CaucasianAsian wrote:On October 18 2022 06:50 chrisolo wrote:
How can u be so naive to get scammed twice in your life for a lot of money? I guess some need to learn the hard way.
Also 100k+ for rent deposit seems extraorbitantly high. You don't even put up 100k+ as a down payment when buying a house here in Germany most of the times. Cannot imagine someone putting down 100k+ as a rent security deposit???? It's not mentioned how much money is involved, but Korea has main 2 systems for renting. 1) Wolse - a deposit (usually ~$10,000 for a small studio, can go up to mid-6 figures for nicer higher-end 3 or 4 bedroom apartments) and monthly payments (depending on how much your deposit is, usually $300 - $600). 2) Jeonse - Pretty much giving the landlord up to 80% of the home's value to live rent-free (excluding utilities). The average 3 bedroom apartment in Seoul costs ~ $1 Million, so this can be up to $800,000 that you give the landlord to live for 2 years. Most people take out loans to do this, as the interest is significantly cheaper than paying on a monthly basis. At the end of the contract, the landlord must pay back the tenant the deposit / jeonse money. But as these are quite significant sums of money, many landlord use this money to invest in other properties and create, in essence, a semi-ponzi scheme. This is why it is very highly recommended that tenants also buy insurance to cover this loss, because even if you sue the landlord it's very unlikely that you get even a % of that money back. The current economy isn't doing great, housing prices are falling, and interest rates are extraordinarily high so less new tenants to pay back old ones (with cheaper new contracts), so this is going to be more common in the near future. It looks like SoulKey did Jeonse, so he could have very well lost a significant amount of money. huge culture shock from reading this, it's insane to me how renters willingly take on so much risk for home owners, the big discrepancy in rent to housing prices makes sense now it's a similar global theme tho, govs/bad leadership taking advantage of citizens to prop up prices.. sadly a story as old as time
Jeonse gained in popularity over the years as Korea was experiencing significant economic growth following the Korean War. (read: Miracle of the Han River).
During this time, it was a win-win for everyone involved, as people were able to live extremely cheaply in newer homes, while land owners would take the jeonse money to invest in the markets (reaching up to 10-15% a year), and pay back the tenants with ease.
In recent years, and unlike any other parts of the world, housing prices easily increased over 10% a year with low interest rates, and FOMO was huge. (side note: Many people in Korea love to gamble in stock markets, housing, and crypto). So it seemed like a no brainer for many to invest in housing, get a tenant to pay up a huge jeonse, then sell after a few years and still make multiple 6 figures after paying back the tenants.
But as the economy has slowed, inflation has kicked in, and interest rates have tripled, housing prices have started to fall and less people are looking to move. So people cannot pay back their mortgages, let alone tenants.
A news report insinuates that many people are going to be at risk of defaulting soon as a result of the economy, rising interest rates, and decrease in home values.
https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20221010002100325
Thus, people like SoulKey are on the losing end.
On October 18 2022 09:25 iFU.spx wrote:
why not buy a house instead of renting if you still need to payback your loan you took from a bank? I dont get it. Jeonse sounds like scam from the start
Jeonse loans are available up to 80% of the the value. To curb the rising prices in recent years, mortgages were capped at 40% of the home value in Seoul and nearby areas (recently increased under the new president).
Most people don't have mid-six figures in cash to buy a new place so they live on jeonse rent free as they save up to eventually be able to buy.
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On October 18 2022 09:26 CaucasianAsian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2022 08:58 TT1 wrote:On October 18 2022 08:11 CaucasianAsian wrote:On October 18 2022 06:50 chrisolo wrote:
How can u be so naive to get scammed twice in your life for a lot of money? I guess some need to learn the hard way.
Also 100k+ for rent deposit seems extraorbitantly high. You don't even put up 100k+ as a down payment when buying a house here in Germany most of the times. Cannot imagine someone putting down 100k+ as a rent security deposit???? It's not mentioned how much money is involved, but Korea has main 2 systems for renting. 1) Wolse - a deposit (usually ~$10,000 for a small studio, can go up to mid-6 figures for nicer higher-end 3 or 4 bedroom apartments) and monthly payments (depending on how much your deposit is, usually $300 - $600). 2) Jeonse - Pretty much giving the landlord up to 80% of the home's value to live rent-free (excluding utilities). The average 3 bedroom apartment in Seoul costs ~ $1 Million, so this can be up to $800,000 that you give the landlord to live for 2 years. Most people take out loans to do this, as the interest is significantly cheaper than paying on a monthly basis. At the end of the contract, the landlord must pay back the tenant the deposit / jeonse money. But as these are quite significant sums of money, many landlord use this money to invest in other properties and create, in essence, a semi-ponzi scheme. This is why it is very highly recommended that tenants also buy insurance to cover this loss, because even if you sue the landlord it's very unlikely that you get even a % of that money back. The current economy isn't doing great, housing prices are falling, and interest rates are extraordinarily high so less new tenants to pay back old ones (with cheaper new contracts), so this is going to be more common in the near future. It looks like SoulKey did Jeonse, so he could have very well lost a significant amount of money. huge culture shock from reading this, it's insane to me how renters willingly take on so much risk for home owners, the big discrepancy in rent to housing prices makes sense now it's a similar global theme tho, govs/bad leadership taking advantage of citizens to prop up prices.. sadly a story as old as time Jeonse gained in popularity over the years as Korea was experiencing significant economic growth following the Korean War. (read: Miracle of the Han River). During this time, it was a win-win for everyone involved, as people were able to live extremely cheaply in newer homes, while land owners would take the jeonse money to invest in the markets (reaching up to 10-15% a year), and pay back the tenants with ease. In recent years, and unlike any other parts of the world, housing prices easily increased over 10% a year with low interest rates, and FOMO was huge. (side note: Many people in Korea love to gamble in stock markets, housing, and crypto). So it seemed like a no brainer for many to invest in housing, get a tenant to pay up a huge jeonse, then sell after a few years and still make multiple 6 figures after paying back the tenants. But as the economy has slowed, inflation has kicked in, and interest rates have tripled, housing prices have started to fall and less people are looking to move. So people cannot pay back their mortgages, let alone tenants. A news report insinuates that many people are going to be at risk of defaulting soon as a result of the economy, rising interest rates, and decrease in home values. https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20221010002100325Thus, people like SoulKey are on the losing end. Show nested quote +On October 18 2022 09:25 iFU.spx wrote:
why not buy a house instead of renting if you still need to payback your loan you took from a bank? I dont get it. Jeonse sounds like scam from the start Jeonse loans are available up to 80% of the the value. To curb the rising prices in recent years, mortgages were capped at 40% of the home value in Seoul and nearby areas (recently increased under the new president). Most people don't have mid-six figures in cash to buy a new place so they live on jeonse rent free as they save up to eventually be able to buy.
This is a lack of accountability/responsibility from leadership tho, they're enabling all of this. It doesn't take too many brain cells to think about what would happen if things weren't all rosy daisy, the lack of backstop for this type of scenario falls on the highest lvl of government. It's too late once the cracks start to show.
Of course no one wants to get blamed for ruining the party so they wait until a disaster happens before taking action, thus weak leadership. Not enough backbone to protect their citizens, that's the job tho  ..
Sad times, we're all feeling the lack of strong leadership (globally) in different ways.
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On October 18 2022 10:01 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2022 09:26 CaucasianAsian wrote:On October 18 2022 08:58 TT1 wrote:On October 18 2022 08:11 CaucasianAsian wrote:On October 18 2022 06:50 chrisolo wrote:
How can u be so naive to get scammed twice in your life for a lot of money? I guess some need to learn the hard way.
Also 100k+ for rent deposit seems extraorbitantly high. You don't even put up 100k+ as a down payment when buying a house here in Germany most of the times. Cannot imagine someone putting down 100k+ as a rent security deposit???? It's not mentioned how much money is involved, but Korea has main 2 systems for renting. 1) Wolse - a deposit (usually ~$10,000 for a small studio, can go up to mid-6 figures for nicer higher-end 3 or 4 bedroom apartments) and monthly payments (depending on how much your deposit is, usually $300 - $600). 2) Jeonse - Pretty much giving the landlord up to 80% of the home's value to live rent-free (excluding utilities). The average 3 bedroom apartment in Seoul costs ~ $1 Million, so this can be up to $800,000 that you give the landlord to live for 2 years. Most people take out loans to do this, as the interest is significantly cheaper than paying on a monthly basis. At the end of the contract, the landlord must pay back the tenant the deposit / jeonse money. But as these are quite significant sums of money, many landlord use this money to invest in other properties and create, in essence, a semi-ponzi scheme. This is why it is very highly recommended that tenants also buy insurance to cover this loss, because even if you sue the landlord it's very unlikely that you get even a % of that money back. The current economy isn't doing great, housing prices are falling, and interest rates are extraordinarily high so less new tenants to pay back old ones (with cheaper new contracts), so this is going to be more common in the near future. It looks like SoulKey did Jeonse, so he could have very well lost a significant amount of money. huge culture shock from reading this, it's insane to me how renters willingly take on so much risk for home owners, the big discrepancy in rent to housing prices makes sense now it's a similar global theme tho, govs/bad leadership taking advantage of citizens to prop up prices.. sadly a story as old as time Jeonse gained in popularity over the years as Korea was experiencing significant economic growth following the Korean War. (read: Miracle of the Han River). During this time, it was a win-win for everyone involved, as people were able to live extremely cheaply in newer homes, while land owners would take the jeonse money to invest in the markets (reaching up to 10-15% a year), and pay back the tenants with ease. In recent years, and unlike any other parts of the world, housing prices easily increased over 10% a year with low interest rates, and FOMO was huge. (side note: Many people in Korea love to gamble in stock markets, housing, and crypto). So it seemed like a no brainer for many to invest in housing, get a tenant to pay up a huge jeonse, then sell after a few years and still make multiple 6 figures after paying back the tenants. But as the economy has slowed, inflation has kicked in, and interest rates have tripled, housing prices have started to fall and less people are looking to move. So people cannot pay back their mortgages, let alone tenants. A news report insinuates that many people are going to be at risk of defaulting soon as a result of the economy, rising interest rates, and decrease in home values. https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20221010002100325Thus, people like SoulKey are on the losing end. On October 18 2022 09:25 iFU.spx wrote:
why not buy a house instead of renting if you still need to payback your loan you took from a bank? I dont get it. Jeonse sounds like scam from the start Jeonse loans are available up to 80% of the the value. To curb the rising prices in recent years, mortgages were capped at 40% of the home value in Seoul and nearby areas (recently increased under the new president). Most people don't have mid-six figures in cash to buy a new place so they live on jeonse rent free as they save up to eventually be able to buy. This is a lack of accountability/responsibility from leadership tho, they're enabling all of this. It doesn't take too many brain cells to think about what would happen if things weren't all rosy daisy, the lack of backstop for this type of scenario falls on the highest lvl of government. It's too late once the cracks start to show. Of course no one wants to get blamed for ruining the party so they wait until a disaster happens before taking action, thus weak leadership. Not enough backbone to protect their citizens, that's the job tho .. Sad times, we're all feeling the lack of strong leadership (globally) in different ways.
Sounds to me like the Korean mindset is to gamble with a growth mindset at the forefront of whatever you do. There is a second option after all, it's not like someone strong-handed SK to do this.
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There is not a law that forces Appartment owner then to give it to Soulkey until Owner has the money to refund ?
I feel sorry for soulkey man. Guy really should go to any place with a lawyer T_T
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On October 18 2022 11:19 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2022 10:01 TT1 wrote:On October 18 2022 09:26 CaucasianAsian wrote:On October 18 2022 08:58 TT1 wrote:On October 18 2022 08:11 CaucasianAsian wrote:On October 18 2022 06:50 chrisolo wrote:
How can u be so naive to get scammed twice in your life for a lot of money? I guess some need to learn the hard way.
Also 100k+ for rent deposit seems extraorbitantly high. You don't even put up 100k+ as a down payment when buying a house here in Germany most of the times. Cannot imagine someone putting down 100k+ as a rent security deposit???? It's not mentioned how much money is involved, but Korea has main 2 systems for renting. 1) Wolse - a deposit (usually ~$10,000 for a small studio, can go up to mid-6 figures for nicer higher-end 3 or 4 bedroom apartments) and monthly payments (depending on how much your deposit is, usually $300 - $600). 2) Jeonse - Pretty much giving the landlord up to 80% of the home's value to live rent-free (excluding utilities). The average 3 bedroom apartment in Seoul costs ~ $1 Million, so this can be up to $800,000 that you give the landlord to live for 2 years. Most people take out loans to do this, as the interest is significantly cheaper than paying on a monthly basis. At the end of the contract, the landlord must pay back the tenant the deposit / jeonse money. But as these are quite significant sums of money, many landlord use this money to invest in other properties and create, in essence, a semi-ponzi scheme. This is why it is very highly recommended that tenants also buy insurance to cover this loss, because even if you sue the landlord it's very unlikely that you get even a % of that money back. The current economy isn't doing great, housing prices are falling, and interest rates are extraordinarily high so less new tenants to pay back old ones (with cheaper new contracts), so this is going to be more common in the near future. It looks like SoulKey did Jeonse, so he could have very well lost a significant amount of money. huge culture shock from reading this, it's insane to me how renters willingly take on so much risk for home owners, the big discrepancy in rent to housing prices makes sense now it's a similar global theme tho, govs/bad leadership taking advantage of citizens to prop up prices.. sadly a story as old as time Jeonse gained in popularity over the years as Korea was experiencing significant economic growth following the Korean War. (read: Miracle of the Han River). During this time, it was a win-win for everyone involved, as people were able to live extremely cheaply in newer homes, while land owners would take the jeonse money to invest in the markets (reaching up to 10-15% a year), and pay back the tenants with ease. In recent years, and unlike any other parts of the world, housing prices easily increased over 10% a year with low interest rates, and FOMO was huge. (side note: Many people in Korea love to gamble in stock markets, housing, and crypto). So it seemed like a no brainer for many to invest in housing, get a tenant to pay up a huge jeonse, then sell after a few years and still make multiple 6 figures after paying back the tenants. But as the economy has slowed, inflation has kicked in, and interest rates have tripled, housing prices have started to fall and less people are looking to move. So people cannot pay back their mortgages, let alone tenants. A news report insinuates that many people are going to be at risk of defaulting soon as a result of the economy, rising interest rates, and decrease in home values. https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20221010002100325Thus, people like SoulKey are on the losing end. On October 18 2022 09:25 iFU.spx wrote:
why not buy a house instead of renting if you still need to payback your loan you took from a bank? I dont get it. Jeonse sounds like scam from the start Jeonse loans are available up to 80% of the the value. To curb the rising prices in recent years, mortgages were capped at 40% of the home value in Seoul and nearby areas (recently increased under the new president). Most people don't have mid-six figures in cash to buy a new place so they live on jeonse rent free as they save up to eventually be able to buy. This is a lack of accountability/responsibility from leadership tho, they're enabling all of this. It doesn't take too many brain cells to think about what would happen if things weren't all rosy daisy, the lack of backstop for this type of scenario falls on the highest lvl of government. It's too late once the cracks start to show. Of course no one wants to get blamed for ruining the party so they wait until a disaster happens before taking action, thus weak leadership. Not enough backbone to protect their citizens, that's the job tho .. Sad times, we're all feeling the lack of strong leadership (globally) in different ways. Sounds to me like the Korean mindset is to gamble with a growth mindset at the forefront of whatever you do. There is a second option after all, it's not like someone strong-handed SK to do this.
Lack of morality/integrity from people in positions of power is the main issue (some places are worse than others ofc, i dont wanna lump everyone together).
They leave the door open for ppl to get exploited due to weak human nature (greed etc).. but this is the ugliest side of capitalism after all, nothing new. For this case in particular you can clearly see how flawed the system is, it has wide scale risks for their society/economy as a whole.
Ofc people in the same position as Soulkey are gonna feel the full brunt of it, even more so than the home owners. That's why it's a culture shock to me, the risk/reward is so uneven.
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If Soulkey would have won ASL, he atleast would have bought a overprized house instead of a overprized rent.
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How come its only sk getting scammed of all pros?
Maybe sk is scamming his viewers as thats the people i feel for. They are giving him money that sk is begging for with his username.
Why does he need to stop stream? If landlord scammed him it should be obvious? The landlord scammed everyone in the building?
Plenty of missing information here.
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On October 18 2022 13:49 MeSaber wrote:
How come its only sk getting scammed of all pros?
Maybe sk is scamming his viewers as thats the people i feel for. They are giving him money that sk is begging for with his username.
Why does he need to stop stream? If landlord scammed him it should be obvious? The landlord scammed everyone in the building?
Plenty of missing information here.
other pros got scammed too man. Just that soulkeys the biggest victim of them all right now
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On October 18 2022 14:23 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2022 13:49 MeSaber wrote:
How come its only sk getting scammed of all pros?
Maybe sk is scamming his viewers as thats the people i feel for. They are giving him money that sk is begging for with his username.
Why does he need to stop stream? If landlord scammed him it should be obvious? The landlord scammed everyone in the building?
Plenty of missing information here. other pros got scammed too man. Just that soulkeys the biggest victim of them all right now
How is he the biggest victim? Dont they pay an equal amount per apartment?
It for me seems like they live very close to one another if not in the same building.
If a landlord scammed em all there cant be any way to get away with it. Its too obvious and he will get hunted down.
The crypto stuff were a low blow and they didnt deserve donations after that. Thats why i have no respect for beggars that throw donations down the drain from gambling. And sk has been by far the biggest one.
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EPT
