if all that was said about their practice regime was that it was unfortunate potential injuries werent managed better, then thatd be fine. to say that to put in that many hours was wrong and they should have found alternatives, is to completely misunderstand the context of why they put that many hours in to begin with. the reason why i specifically use the athlete comparison rather than musicians is because musicians arent typically in competition with one another. musicians typically "compete" against themselves. progamers and other athletes compete with other people, meaning its a race against the clock to become better than others and maintain that performance for as long as possible before your inevitable decline. debating whether or not better coaching methods would have allowed for better injury management whilst maintaining their hours is good. saying that pros should have reduced their practice hours to take care of their bodies is the equivalent of saying the pros should have settled for mediocrity. theres a term the pros use to describe those who were particularly dedicated to practice, called "practice bug". on stream whenever any pro is asked about bisu, jd or flash, those who shared teamhouses with them unanimously say that those 3 were practice bugs. even in a teamhouse where its standard to practice for hours on end, they are recognised amongst their peers for putting in even more hours. the first thing these pros recognise is the effort, not the innate talent and they are quick to credit their accomplishments to the hours they put in. another athlete off the top of my head who was renowned for his insane training regime was kobe bryant. the dude slept like 4 hours a day or something and most of his time was being in the gym or practicing on a court. you dont get to the top of any competitive category by training less than others
On April 02 2021 00:48 TaardadAiel wrote: Arguing about the best practice regimen with calls for hard data or any kind of evidence is kinda pointless, since we don't really have a control group with the same baseline characteristics. A bunch of factors have made the Korean StarCraft scene the best in the world and the rigorous practice routine is just one of them.
The optimal practice regimen is basically unknown to us - heck, even their practice regimen back in the day is unknown to us. Do we know anything about warning-up routine to prevent strain on the structures of the upper limb? Professional musicians even warm DOWN on occasion (John Myung, the bass player for Dream Theater, off the top of my head). Was ergonomics taken into account? If it did, at what point of the development of the pro scene? To what degree? Probably different coaches had different coaching styles, do we know details about them? Maybe some old-timer die-hard fans on this website can shed some light on these issues, that would help the discussion. Don't forget, esports coaching was basically developed then, people were learning on the job and that's completely understandable. We might discuss things now with the benefit of hindsight that they didn't, and that's completely understandable too. And I'm just skimming the surface here.
My point is, "practice" might mean a lot of things and it does absolutely no wrong to discuss (theorize, in fact) ways to optimize practice regimens. I suppose those guys knew that what they're doing will have a price, everything has a price, although they were pretty young at that time. This is beyond the scope of the discussion. I think it's fine to think about ways to reduce the risk of injury; even if the ways proposed are wrong or lead to an unacceptable reduction in performance, such a discussion still has merit.
For those interested, Nony and Idra talks about their experiences in korean team houses in this vod.
It doesn't sound like it was very sofisticated other than playplayplay and git gudd
On March 30 2021 20:41 outscar wrote: Offtopic: who fucked up JD's liqupiedia page? Where are his post KeSPA achievements, like 2nd place of KSL, 4th place ASL etc.? It looked normal but someone thought he's genius. That's not cool. C'mon guys, if you can't conribute pls don't touch the history (+ some photos are getting removed for no reason, so many players like Light or Snow doesn't even have profile image anymore, like WTF is this...). https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Jaedong
I completely agree, I even think a thread should be created. History should not be erased
I'm not sure what you're both talking about to be honest. I looked through the edit history, which I /believe/ you should be able to as well, and you will clearly see:
1. The most recent major removals in the Accomplishments happened in 2017 and were made by Spazer, who is very reputable.
2. The images that were removed were removed because of copyright infringement.
Furthermore:
3. If you have so much to contribute, why don't you contribute?...
They changed something about how achievement tables looking, I tried to add accomplishments to players long ago but it works different right now, maybe I'm too dumb for it. I can swear in 2018 JD had more achievements, now something is weird and when I try to look upon after 2017 changes table isn't showing at all. And what copyright infringement? Did someone threatened to remove or they removed to not have problems in future? I mean, around 10 years no one cared about them and now suddenly copyright problems?
Achievements table on the main player page automatically shows the 10 most 'notable' results based on prizepool, tournament tier, placement and whether it was online or offline. The full results can be seen on the results page of the player (Jaedong/Results).
A lot of images had to be removed because of missing/unknown license. While there were no specific requests to take down poctures on the brood war wiki, liquipedia as a whole is growing and has to abide copyright law if it doesn't want to get into legal trouble, so images without permission to use them are getting reomved from the whole site
On April 02 2021 01:10 evilfatsh1t wrote: if all that was said about their practice regime was that it was unfortunate potential injuries werent managed better, then thatd be fine. to say that to put in that many hours was wrong and they should have found alternatives, is to completely misunderstand the context of why they put that many hours in to begin with. the reason why i specifically use the athlete comparison rather than musicians is because musicians arent typically in competition with one another. musicians typically "compete" against themselves. progamers and other athletes compete with other people, meaning its a race against the clock to become better than others and maintain that performance for as long as possible before your inevitable decline. debating whether or not better coaching methods would have allowed for better injury management whilst maintaining their hours is good. saying that pros should have reduced their practice hours to take care of their bodies is the equivalent of saying the pros should have settled for mediocrity. theres a term the pros use to describe those who were particularly dedicated to practice, called "practice bug". on stream whenever any pro is asked about bisu, jd or flash, those who shared teamhouses with them unanimously say that those 3 were practice bugs. even in a teamhouse where its standard to practice for hours on end, they are recognised amongst their peers for putting in even more hours. the first thing these pros recognise is the effort, not the innate talent and they are quick to credit their accomplishments to the hours they put in. another athlete off the top of my head who was renowned for his insane training regime was kobe bryant. the dude slept like 4 hours a day or something and most of his time was being in the gym or practicing on a court. you dont get to the top of any competitive category by training less than others
The reason I'm bringing up musicians is that the mechanism of injury is physiologically similar to that of professional esports players rather than those of say football players, tennis players and so on. I understand and I largely agree with the competitive aspect, I'm talking more about potential ways to optimize rather than the philosophy behind being an athlete.
And musicians have had decades and sometimes centuries of experience in practice gone bad. Professional athletes in conventional sports have had centuries of that. Professional esports players have not. The industry has recognized the potential and has all kinds of products - chairs, mouses, keyboards and the like - to optimize posture and reduce the risk of occupational injury for people that sit behind a computer for hours on end. There's nothing wrong in suggesting esports coaches could do that with what we know now.
Your points are mostly valid, you getting so worked up on this is overboard IMO. This doesn't look like lack of respect for the players and coaches and the immense effort they put in, it's recognition of the shortcomings of their (probable) routine. But then again, maybe I'm just too inclined to take stuff in the most positive way. I don't want to get into an argument about who meant what anyway.
I'm glad this video got translated, too many foreigners are stuck in the mindset of thinking there is any replacement for hard work. Every issue you have could be solved by playing the game more.
On April 01 2021 15:21 evilfatsh1t wrote:...and i definitely disagree with nematocyst that 4 hours of practice is better than 12. thats just flat out wrong.
Do you disagree with what I actually wrote? It's pretty rude to change what I said and then disagree. We have quote for a reason.
On April 02 2021 00:48 TaardadAiel wrote: Arguing about the best practice regimen with calls for hard data or any kind of evidence is kinda pointless, since we don't really have a control group with the same baseline characteristics. A bunch of factors have made the Korean StarCraft scene the best in the world and the rigorous practice routine is just one of them.
The optimal practice regimen is basically unknown to us - heck, even their practice regimen back in the day is unknown to us. Do we know anything about warning-up routine to prevent strain on the structures of the upper limb? Professional musicians even warm DOWN on occasion (John Myung, the bass player for Dream Theater, off the top of my head). Was ergonomics taken into account? If it did, at what point of the development of the pro scene? To what degree? Probably different coaches had different coaching styles, do we know details about them? Maybe some old-timer die-hard fans on this website can shed some light on these issues, that would help the discussion. Don't forget, esports coaching was basically developed then, people were learning on the job and that's completely understandable. We might discuss things now with the benefit of hindsight that they didn't, and that's completely understandable too. And I'm just skimming the surface here.
My point is, "practice" might mean a lot of things and it does absolutely no wrong to discuss (theorize, in fact) ways to optimize practice regimens. I suppose those guys knew that what they're doing will have a price, everything has a price, although they were pretty young at that time. This is beyond the scope of the discussion. I think it's fine to think about ways to reduce the risk of injury; even if the ways proposed are wrong or lead to an unacceptable reduction in performance, such a discussion still has merit.
It doesn't sound like it was very sofisticated other than playplayplay and git gudd
at this point i just accept that esports is relatively young and their overall methodologies/practices are still generally low-brow and innovation in it is restricted to the whims of certain exceptional players and coaches (seeing players serral and reynor and his coach lambo in sc2 for example). hard work is important but SMART WORK and more project-oriented approaches are far more significant if u want to actually see continued success and to ensure that even the average player can have a comfortable career and post career prospects.
On April 01 2021 15:21 evilfatsh1t wrote:...and i definitely disagree with nematocyst that 4 hours of practice is better than 12. thats just flat out wrong.
Do you disagree with what I actually wrote? It's pretty rude to change what I said and then disagree. We have quote for a reason.
It's pretty rude to act like you know better about what makes successful progamers than the people that actually made it happen. The absolute ego of some of these armchair coaches is appalling.
On April 01 2021 15:21 evilfatsh1t wrote:...and i definitely disagree with nematocyst that 4 hours of practice is better than 12. thats just flat out wrong.
Do you disagree with what I actually wrote? It's pretty rude to change what I said and then disagree. We have quote for a reason.
It's pretty rude to act like you know better about what makes successful progamers than the people that actually made it happen. The absolute ego of some of these armchair coaches is appalling.
do u actually believe 100% in this kind of banal training approach, where its basically no different from a chinese MMO sweatshop where the only KPI is the amount of hours you put in, long term health/prospects be damned. disappointing if u do
It's pretty rude to act like you know better about what makes successful progamers than the people that actually made it happen. The absolute ego of some of these armchair coaches is appalling.
I'm amazed the things you divine from what I actually wrote.
On April 01 2021 15:21 evilfatsh1t wrote:...and i definitely disagree with nematocyst that 4 hours of practice is better than 12. thats just flat out wrong.
Do you disagree with what I actually wrote? It's pretty rude to change what I said and then disagree. We have quote for a reason.
It's pretty rude to act like you know better about what makes successful progamers than the people that actually made it happen. The absolute ego of some of these armchair coaches is appalling.
do u actually believe 100% in this kind of banal training approach, where its basically no different from a chinese MMO sweatshop where the only KPI is the amount of hours you put in, long term health/prospects be damned. disappointing if u do
I believe in the actual results over some idle words from a barely-literate forum shitposter 15 years later.
It's pretty rude to act like you know better about what makes successful progamers than the people that actually made it happen. The absolute ego of some of these armchair coaches is appalling.
I'm amazed the things you divine from what I actually wrote.
If the responders' interpretation of what you wrote is that it is moronic and arrogant, but it isn't what you actually meant, then you didn't really convey your idea well enough.
I believe in the actual results over some idle words from a barely-literate forum shitposter 15 years later.
do u even realise that there isn't really any "actual results" except for those at the very top end? even now only a extreme small percentage can actually sustain a living through afreeca streaming, for the rest its just a hobby/side income or they are forced to diversify to other games/activities. and even those at the top end are seeing severe health consequences because of extreme neglect towards other aspects of player development besides grinding. Wanton ignorance of a need for more refined approaches to training that can now be seen in other sports just speaks volume of your entitlements and lack of compassion for any of these players.
On April 02 2021 13:35 Optimate wrote: Please refrain from calling other users name like shitposter as it is unkind.
yeah its sad i always thought of him as a more level headed person.
On April 02 2021 00:48 TaardadAiel wrote: Arguing about the best practice regimen with calls for hard data or any kind of evidence is kinda pointless, since we don't really have a control group with the same baseline characteristics. A bunch of factors have made the Korean StarCraft scene the best in the world and the rigorous practice routine is just one of them.
The optimal practice regimen is basically unknown to us - heck, even their practice regimen back in the day is unknown to us. Do we know anything about warning-up routine to prevent strain on the structures of the upper limb? Professional musicians even warm DOWN on occasion (John Myung, the bass player for Dream Theater, off the top of my head). Was ergonomics taken into account? If it did, at what point of the development of the pro scene? To what degree? Probably different coaches had different coaching styles, do we know details about them? Maybe some old-timer die-hard fans on this website can shed some light on these issues, that would help the discussion. Don't forget, esports coaching was basically developed then, people were learning on the job and that's completely understandable. We might discuss things now with the benefit of hindsight that they didn't, and that's completely understandable too. And I'm just skimming the surface here.
My point is, "practice" might mean a lot of things and it does absolutely no wrong to discuss (theorize, in fact) ways to optimize practice regimens. I suppose those guys knew that what they're doing will have a price, everything has a price, although they were pretty young at that time. This is beyond the scope of the discussion. I think it's fine to think about ways to reduce the risk of injury; even if the ways proposed are wrong or lead to an unacceptable reduction in performance, such a discussion still has merit.
It doesn't sound like it was very sofisticated other than playplayplay and git gudd
at this point i just accept that esports is relatively young and their overall methodologies/practices are still generally low-brow and innovation in it is restricted to the whims of certain exceptional players and coaches (seeing players serral and reynor and his coach lambo in sc2 for example). hard work is important but SMART WORK and more project-oriented approaches are far more significant if u want to actually see continued success and to ensure that even the average player can have a comfortable career and post career prospects.
please stop with this enlightened coaching bullshit. you dont know wtf youre talking about, or you would be a multi-title winning coach yourself. youre pretty much spewing the same "forced slavery sweatshop" crap as timebones and its stupid. the players chose that life because thats what it took. like seriously how difficult is it to understand the fundamental idea that if a lot of your competitors are putting in x amount of hours, unless youre fucking faker and have an extremely rare gift, you have to at the very least match the hours your peers are putting in. this goes for anything in life, not even just sport. if you want to keep up with other people you put in the effort. its that fucking simple if you want to be bang average at everything in life and not put in the effort to be better at something than others, good for you. or maybe youre a 1/1000000 freak that can actually put his words where his own mouth is and "work smarter" to achieve results. but the majority of people arent like that, so they grind through life to make something of themselves. instead of shitting on their efforts why dont you show some respect for the sacrifices they made to get where they are. fucking appalling how users of a site dedicated to gaming has so little consideration for the sacrifices progamers made. i dare you to go to last's (quite honestly a mid tier pro during the proleague days with no major accomplishment, now with damaged wrists) stream and say to his face that he was an idiot to grind 12+ hours a day because he has nothing to show for it but fucked up wrists. let me know how that goes
and to comment on the vid that timebones put up. a discussion between probably the most salty guy in starcraft esports (artosis) and 2 foreign pros who werent able to keep up with the practice regimes and not so coincidentally couldnt replicate results anywhere near korean pros. and these guys are saying that the korean practice routines didnt work. rofl. all i see is 3 foreigners unable to accept that they just didnt have what it took to match the koreans. the results speak for themselves.
On April 02 2021 00:48 TaardadAiel wrote: Arguing about the best practice regimen with calls for hard data or any kind of evidence is kinda pointless, since we don't really have a control group with the same baseline characteristics. A bunch of factors have made the Korean StarCraft scene the best in the world and the rigorous practice routine is just one of them.
The optimal practice regimen is basically unknown to us - heck, even their practice regimen back in the day is unknown to us. Do we know anything about warning-up routine to prevent strain on the structures of the upper limb? Professional musicians even warm DOWN on occasion (John Myung, the bass player for Dream Theater, off the top of my head). Was ergonomics taken into account? If it did, at what point of the development of the pro scene? To what degree? Probably different coaches had different coaching styles, do we know details about them? Maybe some old-timer die-hard fans on this website can shed some light on these issues, that would help the discussion. Don't forget, esports coaching was basically developed then, people were learning on the job and that's completely understandable. We might discuss things now with the benefit of hindsight that they didn't, and that's completely understandable too. And I'm just skimming the surface here.
My point is, "practice" might mean a lot of things and it does absolutely no wrong to discuss (theorize, in fact) ways to optimize practice regimens. I suppose those guys knew that what they're doing will have a price, everything has a price, although they were pretty young at that time. This is beyond the scope of the discussion. I think it's fine to think about ways to reduce the risk of injury; even if the ways proposed are wrong or lead to an unacceptable reduction in performance, such a discussion still has merit.
It doesn't sound like it was very sofisticated other than playplayplay and git gudd
at this point i just accept that esports is relatively young and their overall methodologies/practices are still generally low-brow and innovation in it is restricted to the whims of certain exceptional players and coaches (seeing players serral and reynor and his coach lambo in sc2 for example). hard work is important but SMART WORK and more project-oriented approaches are far more significant if u want to actually see continued success and to ensure that even the average player can have a comfortable career and post career prospects.
please stop with this enlightened coaching bullshit. you dont know wtf youre talking about, or you would be a multi-title winning coach yourself. youre pretty much spewing the same "forced slavery sweatshop" crap as timebones and its stupid. the players chose that life because thats what it took. like seriously how difficult is it to understand the fundamental idea that if a lot of your competitors are putting in x amount of hours, unless youre fucking faker and have an extremely rare gift, you have to at the very least match the hours your peers are putting in. this goes for anything in life, not even just sport. if you want to keep up with other people you put in the effort. its that fucking simple if you want to be bang average at everything in life and not put in the effort to be better at something than others, good for you. or maybe youre a 1/1000000 freak that can actually put his words where his own mouth is and "work smarter" to achieve results. but the majority of people arent like that, so they grind through life to make something of themselves. instead of shitting on their efforts why dont you show some respect for the sacrifices they made to get where they are. fucking appalling how users of a site dedicated to gaming has so little consideration for the sacrifices progamers made. i dare you to go to last's (quite honestly a mid tier pro during the proleague days with no major accomplishment, now with damaged wrists) stream and say to his face that he was an idiot to grind 12+ hours a day because he has nothing to show for it but fucked up wrists. let me know how that goes
i literally posted in your quoted post that hard work is important. you didnt even read that and just continue on your tangent on just because hard work suddenly means you are a better person or that you are entitiled to something. guess what? there are people who barely put in any effort in their life and yet already reap all the rewards that most people will never see their lifetime (those are lucky enough to be born in rich/royal families basically). why don't u go scream at them lmao?
my narrative has always been about calling for a need for adjustments/refinements to their training approaches to ensure that injuries are minimized players welfare are always on top, all without disrupting the rigour of their training. obviously im not a top tier coach but this things are so fucking common sense that you have to be sociopath to ignore it.
On April 02 2021 00:48 TaardadAiel wrote: Arguing about the best practice regimen with calls for hard data or any kind of evidence is kinda pointless, since we don't really have a control group with the same baseline characteristics. A bunch of factors have made the Korean StarCraft scene the best in the world and the rigorous practice routine is just one of them.
The optimal practice regimen is basically unknown to us - heck, even their practice regimen back in the day is unknown to us. Do we know anything about warning-up routine to prevent strain on the structures of the upper limb? Professional musicians even warm DOWN on occasion (John Myung, the bass player for Dream Theater, off the top of my head). Was ergonomics taken into account? If it did, at what point of the development of the pro scene? To what degree? Probably different coaches had different coaching styles, do we know details about them? Maybe some old-timer die-hard fans on this website can shed some light on these issues, that would help the discussion. Don't forget, esports coaching was basically developed then, people were learning on the job and that's completely understandable. We might discuss things now with the benefit of hindsight that they didn't, and that's completely understandable too. And I'm just skimming the surface here.
My point is, "practice" might mean a lot of things and it does absolutely no wrong to discuss (theorize, in fact) ways to optimize practice regimens. I suppose those guys knew that what they're doing will have a price, everything has a price, although they were pretty young at that time. This is beyond the scope of the discussion. I think it's fine to think about ways to reduce the risk of injury; even if the ways proposed are wrong or lead to an unacceptable reduction in performance, such a discussion still has merit.
It doesn't sound like it was very sofisticated other than playplayplay and git gudd
at this point i just accept that esports is relatively young and their overall methodologies/practices are still generally low-brow and innovation in it is restricted to the whims of certain exceptional players and coaches (seeing players serral and reynor and his coach lambo in sc2 for example). hard work is important but SMART WORK and more project-oriented approaches are far more significant if u want to actually see continued success and to ensure that even the average player can have a comfortable career and post career prospects.
please stop with this enlightened coaching bullshit. you dont know wtf youre talking about, or you would be a multi-title winning coach yourself. youre pretty much spewing the same "forced slavery sweatshop" crap as timebones and its stupid. the players chose that life because thats what it took. like seriously how difficult is it to understand the fundamental idea that if a lot of your competitors are putting in x amount of hours, unless youre fucking faker and have an extremely rare gift, you have to at the very least match the hours your peers are putting in. this goes for anything in life, not even just sport. if you want to keep up with other people you put in the effort. its that fucking simple if you want to be bang average at everything in life and not put in the effort to be better at something than others, good for you. or maybe youre a 1/1000000 freak that can actually put his words where his own mouth is and "work smarter" to achieve results. but the majority of people arent like that, so they grind through life to make something of themselves. instead of shitting on their efforts why dont you show some respect for the sacrifices they made to get where they are. fucking appalling how users of a site dedicated to gaming has so little consideration for the sacrifices progamers made. i dare you to go to last's (quite honestly a mid tier pro during the proleague days with no major accomplishment, now with damaged wrists) stream and say to his face that he was an idiot to grind 12+ hours a day because he has nothing to show for it but fucked up wrists. let me know how that goes
i literally posted in your quoted post that hard work is important. you didnt even read that and just continue on your tangent on just because hard work suddenly means you are a better person or that you are entitiled to something. guess what? there are people who barely put in any effort in their life and yet already reap all the rewards that most people will never see their lifetime (those are lucky enough to be born in rich/royal families basically). why don't u go scream at them lmao?
my narrative has always been about calling for a need for adjustments/refinements to their training approaches to ensure that injuries are minimized players welfare are always on top, all without disrupting the rigour of their training. obviously im not a top tier coach but this things are so fucking common sense that you have to be sociopath to ignore it.
where have i stated in any of my posts that hard work automatically means youre better or that youre entitled to something? dont put words in my mouth. and wtf is the bolded part about? how is that even remotely relevant to this discussion? take your wealth inequality bullshit elsewhere i like that you pointed out that your stance is a narrative. you have no evidence to support your claim that adjustments to the training programs could be made that simultaneously reduced injuries and maintained their practice workload. you proposed therapy for best once. how do you think thats gonna work in a teamhouse setting? youre gonna ask the coaches to pay for your therapy because youre a choker, and therefore need months of sessions to work through this mental block? hes in competition with other people. the moment he goes to a coach and says "i need therapy because of my own incompetence", hes risking the coaches thinking that hes not cut out for the job and will replace him. the coaches jobs arent to be the players parent. whether or not the player has a future after progaming is irrelevant to the coaches. thats a concern for the player, not the coach. get off your high horse and stop critiquing with the benefit of hindsight that the coaches mistreated the players and the players were dumb to grind like slaves. they did the best they could because they wanted success and they were willing to pay the price. end of story
People DO need to work smarter, that's why they have coaches/mentors/whatever. Even structuring and organizing it is smarter than just blindly banging your head against the wall. No reason not to try and take an extra step, try to make it better, probably safer. Don't consider that a substitute for hard work but rather an addition to it. And that the Korean coaches didn't do it is perfectly fine, they really were learning on the job.
Go and see any aspiring football kid. See if they just play 90-minute games over and over, without practicing passing, movement with the ball, without the ball, shooting set pieces, going to the gym for basic fitness etc. Coaches might tell them what to eat and when, and even bother telling them why.
All of this is meant to learn to do stuff better without hurting yourself in the process.
On April 02 2021 14:39 TaardadAiel wrote: People DO need to work smarter, that's why they have coaches/mentors/whatever. Even structuring and organizing it is smarter than just blindly banging your head against the wall. No reason not to try and take an extra step, try to make it better, probably safer. Don't consider that a substitute for hard work but rather an addition to it. And that the Korean coaches didn't do it is perfectly fine, they really were learning on the job.
Go and see any aspiring football kid. See if they just play 90-minute games over and over, without practicing passing, movement with the ball, without the ball, shooting set pieces, going to the gym for basic fitness etc. Coaches might tell them what to eat and when, and even bother telling them why.
All of this is meant to learn to do stuff better without hurting yourself in the process.
i dont disagree that coaches need to optimise training. thats their job. being intelligent about the way you coach and the way players train is what every coach thinks about. what i disagree with is the casual dismissal of methods employed by coaches and players during those days by a handful of nobodies sitting at home. to have the audacity to claim that the coaches didnt take into consideration the fact that 12 hours of practice is a difficult regime and the potential for wrists injuries was problematic is ridiculous. these coaches were paid very respectable salaries to produce results and just like how the players compete with each other, coaches are in the same position. "how could i train my players differently to produce results better than other teams?". what makes these guys on tl think that the coaches didnt think of this every day? and if after all that contemplation led to no major change, then that was the limit of their understanding or technology of their time. ~15 years later some armchair coaches are like "they should have done this or that, and they were stupid to not employ these methods and treated the players like slaves". absolutely embarrassing
I don’t understand how it’s egotistical to question if it’s optimal to grind out games all day without access to non-BW internet or a TV. It was a nascent profession where pro gaming was a new thing, never mind the lag period to have coaches with the requisite skillset and experience of being involved in the game at a high level.
Go find me any kind of study that recommends such an approach, it’s not rocket science.
Kespa teams themselves toned it down from the early days and adopted a more sophisticated approach over time.
There’s also a world of difference between obtaining a level of proficiency and maintaining it.
A world class musician, or a relatively decent scrub like me put in tons of hours honing our respective crafts. Once you have the chops it’s maintaining them, or improving specific areas or stretching out and learning new things. To even get to my level takes a ton of hours grinding the mechanics especially, doesn’t take me much to keep them reasonably sharp though.
To create a Jaedong you’re going to need a serious grind yeah, once he’s Jaedong though the maintainence of his mechanics probably isn’t going to need 12 hour a day grinds or whatever.
I think it’s largely moot as even in a slightly more relaxed environment Jaedong seems the kind of guy with an insane work ethic and pride in that, so he’d probably put in excess hours in his own time anyway.
On April 02 2021 14:39 TaardadAiel wrote: People DO need to work smarter, that's why they have coaches/mentors/whatever. Even structuring and organizing it is smarter than just blindly banging your head against the wall. No reason not to try and take an extra step, try to make it better, probably safer. Don't consider that a substitute for hard work but rather an addition to it. And that the Korean coaches didn't do it is perfectly fine, they really were learning on the job.
Go and see any aspiring football kid. See if they just play 90-minute games over and over, without practicing passing, movement with the ball, without the ball, shooting set pieces, going to the gym for basic fitness etc. Coaches might tell them what to eat and when, and even bother telling them why.
All of this is meant to learn to do stuff better without hurting yourself in the process.
i dont disagree that coaches need to optimise training. thats their job. being intelligent about the way you coach and the way players train is what every coach thinks about. what i disagree with is the casual dismissal of methods employed by coaches and players during those days by a handful of nobodies sitting at home. to have the audacity to claim that the coaches didnt take into consideration the fact that 12 hours of practice is a difficult regime and the potential for wrists injuries was problematic is ridiculous. these coaches were paid very respectable salaries to produce results and just like how the players compete with each other, coaches are in the same position. "how could i train my players differently to produce results better than other teams?". what makes these guys on tl think that the coaches didnt think of this every day? and if after all that contemplation led to no major change, then that was the limit of their understanding or technology of their time. ~15 years later some armchair coaches are like "they should have done this or that, and they were stupid to not employ these methods and treated the players like slaves". absolutely embarrassing
As I said, I think you're just taking it too far. I wouldn't assume that nobody on this website has put anything near the effort these guys have in whatever their profession is (pauline shared his own experience though), but that may very well be the case since they are in fact at the very top. Not to mention that, as you pointed out, the philosophy behind being an athlete is very different. So we're just chilling and theorizing on a website, I don't think it's terribly disrespectful or embarrassing to state that there probably is a better way with the benefit of hindsight. Such a discussion might lead to nothing, but it doesn't hurt anybody. A discussion like the one right now leads to useless tension between us. You have made your point and it's valid, really.
EPT
