EPTJaeDong's Secret to Progaming Success & Improving - Page 2
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lJTJPl
24 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8737 Posts
On April 01 2021 04:29 WombaT wrote: There’s something to be said for dedication for sure but that seems overkill in terms of a practice regime and you’re hitting diminishing returns or even burnout and regression in that environment. whether or not you burnout or regress is the difference between having what it takes to be a top player or being a mediocre player. those who can maintain that level of practice without burning out will benefit from all that practice, regardless of how diminishing those returns are. that small difference is what makes a player s-tier and a-tier. so i disagree that the practice hours are overkill and i definitely disagree with nematocyst that 4 hours of practice is better than 12. thats just flat out wrong. gaming isnt the same as trying to absorb new knowledge from a textbook. muscle memory, reaction time and instinctive decision making are hugely important and all of these are improved by immense amounts of repetition. more hours = more repetition = "automatic" actions/decision making. theres a form of practice that doesnt involve grinding obviously, which would be theory crafting and improving their understanding of the game, but getting their mechanics to a level which can execute actions according to their understanding of the game in a matter of milliseconds is only done through repetition. a player that only plays ~15 games a day cannot become better than a similar player grinding ~30 | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On March 30 2021 21:49 Timebon3s wrote: Since they don't speak English, does Koreans learn other languages that they can use to communicate in other countries? How would they communicate in Thailand? There's quite a few koreans who can speak English. I know there's a lot of Koreans who can speak Japanese as well. It's the same as any country really, there's people in Korea who know varius languages, same as anywhere else. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway731 Posts
On April 01 2021 15:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: whether or not you burnout or regress is the difference between having what it takes to be a top player or being a mediocre player. those who can maintain that level of practice without burning out will benefit from all that practice, regardless of how diminishing those returns are. that small difference is what makes a player s-tier and a-tier. so i disagree that the practice hours are overkill and i definitely disagree with nematocyst that 4 hours of practice is better than 12. thats just flat out wrong. gaming isnt the same as trying to absorb new knowledge from a textbook. muscle memory, reaction time and instinctive decision making are hugely important and all of these are improved by immense amounts of repetition. more hours = more repetition = "automatic" actions/decision making. theres a form of practice that doesnt involve grinding obviously, which would be theory crafting and improving their understanding of the game, but getting their mechanics to a level which can execute actions according to their understanding of the game in a matter of milliseconds is only done through repetition. a player that only plays ~15 games a day cannot become better than a similar player grinding ~30 I agree that 4 hours is no way near as beneficial as 12, and if you look at games from the Kespa era and compare them to today’s games, you clearly see the level of mechanics was way better back then. But when people like Flash and Jaedong ends up fucking up their wrists to the point of needing several surgeries and in the end are no longer capable to play the game, it’s clearly gone to far. I remember Artosis saying in a video some time ago he interviewed the coaches and asked who they thought the next upcoming pro gamer was, and all they did was list the players who practiced the most. Nothing else mattered to them. And to get the coaches graces and get to play in tournaments, you had to practice more than everyone else. That’s going to far and not healthy IMO. And some of these players were very young. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway731 Posts
On April 01 2021 17:15 Qikz wrote: There's quite a few koreans who can speak English. I know there's a lot of Koreans who can speak Japanese as well. It's the same as any country really, there's people in Korea who know varius languages, same as anywhere else. Thanks 😊 | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8737 Posts
even the ones who werent as successful wouldnt regret because of any injury, theyd simply regret that they didnt perform better. progamers start young so you guys look at this with a protective lens, but every professional athlete starts young. its their passion and their choice to make the most of the short window they have to make something of themselves. if 14 hours of practice a day gives them a better platform to do that then why question their resolve? | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
On April 01 2021 04:17 Jealous wrote: I'm not sure what you're both talking about to be honest. I looked through the edit history, which I /believe/ you should be able to as well, and you will clearly see: 1. The most recent major removals in the Accomplishments happened in 2017 and were made by Spazer, who is very reputable. 2. The images that were removed were removed because of copyright infringement. Furthermore: 3. If you have so much to contribute, why don't you contribute?... They changed something about how achievement tables looking, I tried to add accomplishments to players long ago but it works different right now, maybe I'm too dumb for it. I can swear in 2018 JD had more achievements, now something is weird and when I try to look upon after 2017 changes table isn't showing at all. And what copyright infringement? Did someone threatened to remove or they removed to not have problems in future? I mean, around 10 years no one cared about them and now suddenly copyright problems? | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway731 Posts
I would rather compare them to musicians like guitar players. A lot of the famous guitar players played 12 hours a day and a lot of them got injuries. Did they regret it? I doubt it. Would they do it the exact same way again? Probably, if it meant being successful. Is it the right way to do it? No it isn’t when you’re taking about grown up coaches training kids. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8737 Posts
On April 01 2021 19:09 Timebon3s wrote: They are different in that professional athletes have to carefully calculate how much training they have to do in order to prevent injuries and overtraining, and it doesn’t compare to esports in the same way. I would rather compare them to musicians like guitar players. A lot of the famous guitar players played 12 hours a day and a lot of them got injuries. Did they regret it? I doubt it. Would they do it the exact same way again? Probably, if it meant being successful. Is it the right way to do it? No it isn’t when you’re taking about grown up coaches training kids. please enlighten us on what the right way to do it is. if you had any results to back your claim then you could say they were wrong but you dont. korea has historically produced the best esports players in history and it isnt because they allowed their players more freedom in their practice routine. these players are in constant competition with each other and grinding is what made the difference in their field. if they get hurt while doing it thats the cost of their success and no matter how young they are they still understand the choice they make to follow those routines. with the millions of dollars put into the esports industry and infrastructure in korea over a span of ~20 years, youd think the coaches there understood what the best method would be to get players to produce results and improve. guess they needed to spend more millions in a wider scouting network because they failed to find the genius revolutionary coaches on tl who know the real secrets behind coaching /s | ||
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Jealous
10198 Posts
On April 01 2021 19:28 evilfatsh1t wrote: please enlighten us on what the right way to do it is. if you had any results to back your claim then you could say they were wrong but you dont. korea has historically produced the best esports players in history and it isnt because they allowed their players more freedom in their practice routine. these players are in constant competition with each other and grinding is what made the difference in their field. if they get hurt while doing it thats the cost of their success and no matter how young they are they still understand the choice they make to follow those routines. with the millions of dollars put into the esports industry and infrastructure in korea over a span of ~20 years, youd think the coaches there understood what the best method would be to get players to produce results and improve. guess they needed to spend more millions in a wider scouting network because they failed to find the genius revolutionary coaches on tl who know the real secrets behind coaching /s It's actually quite insulting. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8737 Posts
i agree. like do they honestly think that flash would be raging about how his coaches exploited him when he was younger and forced him into 14 hours of practice a day to make him the god he is? i would bet my life savings on flash looking at his injuries and thinking "arms well spent". | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
On April 01 2021 21:26 evilfatsh1t wrote: i agree. like do they honestly think that flash would be raging about how his coaches exploited him when he was younger and forced him into 14 hours of practice a day to make him the god he is? i would bet my life savings on flash looking at his injuries and thinking "arms well spent". flash would have succeeded no matter the regimen, hes a generational talent on the par of messi/lebron. i argue a lslightly less strenous but more focused regimen with investment into a physiotherapist to ensure players long term health would never let him have issues with his wrists at all while maintaining his rigour of play. if flash is truly the best player then a asset like him deserves protection no? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25875 Posts
On April 01 2021 21:26 evilfatsh1t wrote: i agree. like do they honestly think that flash would be raging about how his coaches exploited him when he was younger and forced him into 14 hours of practice a day to make him the god he is? i would bet my life savings on flash looking at his injuries and thinking "arms well spent". Flash is Flash though. As Jaedong alludes to even amongst the Kespa teams Oz had a notably intense training regime and simply practicing harder didn’t notably elevate them beyond their competition. It’s not a matter of not working hard, time could be better utilised. Even through Kespa’s BW life I believe they toned down and restructured practice regimes, and modern ones are a good bit more balanced (albeit yes modern Korean teams play less mechanically demanding games). In addition you pile a crazy amount of pressure on people if your absolute entire life is Starcraft. If you can’t even wind down, watch some TV or casually browse the internet I mean come game week that takes on a huge, huge significance. Again, it does visibly work but is it optimal and worth the trade off educationally and socially for those who don’t ascend to the levels of a Flash or a Jaedong? | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway731 Posts
On April 01 2021 19:28 evilfatsh1t wrote: please enlighten us on what the right way to do it is. if you had any results to back your claim then you could say they were wrong but you dont. korea has historically produced the best esports players in history and it isnt because they allowed their players more freedom in their practice routine. these players are in constant competition with each other and grinding is what made the difference in their field. if they get hurt while doing it thats the cost of their success and no matter how young they are they still understand the choice they make to follow those routines. with the millions of dollars put into the esports industry and infrastructure in korea over a span of ~20 years, youd think the coaches there understood what the best method would be to get players to produce results and improve. guess they needed to spend more millions in a wider scouting network because they failed to find the genius revolutionary coaches on tl who know the real secrets behind coaching /s To begin with, they should get proper amount of sleep and learn how to practice without having their wrists fucked up for the rest of their lifes. It can be as insulting as you want, but having kids down to 12 years old practice that amount without letting their brains get the rest they need is borderline abuse. OR we could shoot them up with amphetamine so they could practice for 20 hours a day. As long as they get best right? :D | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8737 Posts
On April 01 2021 23:56 WombaT wrote: Flash is Flash though. As Jaedong alludes to even amongst the Kespa teams Oz had a notably intense training regime and simply practicing harder didn’t notably elevate them beyond their competition. It’s not a matter of not working hard, time could be better utilised. Even through Kespa’s BW life I believe they toned down and restructured practice regimes, and modern ones are a good bit more balanced (albeit yes modern Korean teams play less mechanically demanding games). In addition you pile a crazy amount of pressure on people if your absolute entire life is Starcraft. If you can’t even wind down, watch some TV or casually browse the internet I mean come game week that takes on a huge, huge significance. Again, it does visibly work but is it optimal and worth the trade off educationally and socially for those who don’t ascend to the levels of a Flash or a Jaedong? thats for the actual players to decide, not some randoms on tl who think they could have revolutionised the practice culture. as for flash being flash, jd literally says in his video that the guys who relied on talent only had "moments" in their careers. the consistent ones put in the hours. what makes you think flash would be any different? if he only puts in 3/4 of the hours compared to the rest of his peers what guarantees him his place on the top? nothing. On April 01 2021 23:57 Timebon3s wrote: To begin with, they should get proper amount of sleep and learn how to practice without having their wrists fucked up for the rest of their lifes. It can be as insulting as you want, but having kids down to 12 years old practice that amount without letting their brains get the rest they need is borderline abuse. OR we could shoot them up with amphetamine so they could practice for 20 hours a day. As long as they get best right? :D you make it sound like some slave master forced these kids into slavery. from your previous posts i already know youre completely oblivious to not just korean (i would go as far as saying asian) culture, but competitive environments in general. heres some knowledge for you. there are literally thousands of children in korea who put in comparable hours to pros at pc bangs or at home, all with the hopes of being a progamer one day. they do this voluntarily because its both their passion and because thats what it takes to be better than their friends. the pros are just given a structured environment where they can dedicate themselves better with like minded people. all of them are making the choice to grind for as long as they physically and mentally can so that they can push themselves to be better than their peers, and the teamhouses provide the ideal environment for the players to do this. now if you look at the results of these pros, it speaks for themselves. foreigners were finally given an opportunity to level the playing field when sc2 first arrived. new game; everyone has to start from scratch. im sure many foreigners adopted your mindset, either because they physically or mentally couldnt cope with the grind or they just didnt consider it to be worth it. when proleague officially moved to sc2, how long did it take before korea dominated and how long did they dominate for? pretty sure it was until the systems supporting this culture ceased to exist. if you want to recommend to any athlete in any category that they take it easy and think of their wellbeing in the future, good luck to them. meanwhile the guys who are desperate to be at the very top and are prepared to make many sacrifices, including their own wellbeing, will stomp the lazy athletes all day every day. if your peers are grinding like fuck to be better than you, i dont know how you expect to achieve results if you dont put in the effort to at least match them. instead of just admitting that youre clueless about what it takes to be a top sportsman, or that you lack the competitive mindset yourself to be able to relate to them in the slightest, you have the audacity to say from the comfort of your home that they could have achieved those results without making those sacrifices and they should have practiced "better", or worse, you question whether their success was even worth it. thats just disrespectful and frankly makes you look pathetic. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway731 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
The optimal practice regimen is basically unknown to us - heck, even their practice regimen back in the day is unknown to us. Do we know anything about warning-up routine to prevent strain on the structures of the upper limb? Professional musicians even warm DOWN on occasion (John Myung, the bass player for Dream Theater, off the top of my head). Was ergonomics taken into account? If it did, at what point of the development of the pro scene? To what degree? Probably different coaches had different coaching styles, do we know details about them? Maybe some old-timer die-hard fans on this website can shed some light on these issues, that would help the discussion. Don't forget, esports coaching was basically developed then, people were learning on the job and that's completely understandable. We might discuss things now with the benefit of hindsight that they didn't, and that's completely understandable too. And I'm just skimming the surface here. My point is, "practice" might mean a lot of things and it does absolutely no wrong to discuss (theorize, in fact) ways to optimize practice regimens. I suppose those guys knew that what they're doing will have a price, everything has a price, although they were pretty young at that time. This is beyond the scope of the discussion. I think it's fine to think about ways to reduce the risk of injury; even if the ways proposed are wrong or lead to an unacceptable reduction in performance, such a discussion still has merit. | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5163 Posts
I hate to be that person, but I thought we aren't allowed to post fomos.kr media on TL ever since 2009-2010? | ||
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