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On September 01 2020 12:43 XenOsky wrote:
no amount of terran or zerg players will ever be close to the greatness that the Six Dragons were.
This~~~~~ is a great comment
Also, to add to the discussion "the Six Dragons" naming is continuation of grouping the tosses who fought back. Like, before them there were the Three Kings then the Three Neo Kings.
I think it was due to as previously stated the underperformance and finite bursts of toss glory which was never brought about by only 1 toss. So while for T and Z you had _a_ bonjwa or such term for a single player when it came to protoss you always had to group them in 3s and 6s as their domination was morefold.
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I don't think there is any specific reason why there is no other Six Dragons with the other races, it does not suit them, there had to be Six Dragons bro. Protoss is the divine race. =)
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Legend of the Fall was the original meme, and Proleague ended that way too with Jangbi finishing the ritual.
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On September 02 2020 03:34 StuDToSs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2020 20:42 iFU.pauline wrote:
I can only speak for zerg but during this time you only had 2 players that deserved any attention. Jaedong who was rolfstomping all protoss left handed aside of Bisu which was the only challenge and the rise of EffOrt who was a killing machine for SPL making him the easiest bet ever with Flash and achieving the best zvt mu ever recorded I swear. Others zerg players weren't even close to these two so it wouldn't be right to associate them. If your criteria is strictly isolated periods of dominance during that time then yes, Jaedong and Effort were the only two Zergs who looked like absolute monsters for at least a good 5+ months. But Zero and Calm's overall body of work was at least as good, if not, better than Effort's from 2008 to end of 2010 overall. Calm was consistently making the playoffs of Starleagues more often than Effort did. Remember that Calm beat Jaedong in a Bo5 and ultimately won the MSL. He made the playoffs of the MSL every single time after his MSL win except for 1 time. He also made the Ro4 of the OSL a couple of times as well. In terms of Proleague, Calm was a monster during 2009 but of course people like Effort and Jaedong were overshadowing him. Zero didn't win any titles during this time but almost always made it to the playoffs of both Starleagues. He was also a good Proleague player who could beat anyone on a good day. However, what really made Zero turn heads was his mechanical ability; he was a great macro player, he had creative builds and strats, and his muta-micro was among the best in the scene. He was a player everyone thought underachieved because of how good his mechanical abilities were. To say those two don't deserve ANY attention is absurd.
Maybe it is right to have Calm you are right, he was performing well but he hasn't caught my eye as I have very high standards.
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You guys have a fact to remember.
Of course, it is natural for the best players such as Flash, JD, Effort, and Fantasy to get the best honors and nicknames.
However, it is Korean fans who made the nicknames for gamers.
Korean fans cheered for different teams.
SKT T1, CJ entus, Woongjin Starts, Wemade Fox, estro, Samsung Khan, Hwaseung OZ etc
Each team had mostly ace cards and they were mostly nicknamed by fans.
Representative team aces are as follows.
SKT T1: Bisu, Best, Fantasy
CJ entus: Effort, Hydra
Hite sparkyz: Leta, Horang2
Air Force ACE: Boxer
Samsung Khan: Stork, Jangbi
Woongjin Stars: Free, Zero
MBC game heros: Sea, Light
Hwaseung OZ: JD, Forgg
KT Rolster: Flash, Stats, Nar_la
Wemade Fox: Nada, TY, Midas
estro: Really, Action
STX Soul: Kal, Calm
Korean fans considered their performance in Proleague more important than MSL and OSL. The careers of MSL and OSL were viewed as supporting material for their success at Proleague.
In fact, Skyhigh didn't get much attention even though they made it to the semi-finals in the Star League.
However, he soon gained attention as he scored a reverse all-kill in the Winners League against Hwaseng OZ.
Fans at that time also liked individual leagues such as OSL and MSL, but the most important thing was their performance in Proleague.
Flash is rated as the best gamer, but if you ask the majority of Korean fans about Flash, most of them will mention Proleague first.
The same goes for JD. He had a ridiculously high ZvZ win rate in Proleague.
Ofc, six dragons, there was a title given because he was active in OSL and MSL.
In fact, Flash earned the nickname of the final weapon due to his performance in the Winners League, and JD also earned the nickname of the tyrant due to his performance in the Proleague.
Calm also earned the nickname Brain due to his performance at Proleague.
Before you guys say that Zero and Calm deserve attention, think about what roles Zero and Calm have in Woongjin Stars and STX Soul respectively
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As a CJ fan, never I have I seen Snow as ace (although very sorry because I really like Snow ever since he showed up as a PvT sniper after getting good results for the B team before that).
The team's designated aces and champions (at least on the timeframe where snow existed) were EffOrt and Hydra. You could make a case of us having snipers in Skyhigh or Snow for TvT and PvT respectively, but other than that, CJ leaned heavily on effort and hydra. When effort left, Hydra carried the team and you can argue that the go to protoss at the time would be movie or even Horang2 (after the merger).
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On September 07 2020 10:55 Cruiser0929 wrote:
You guys have a fact to remember.
Of course, it is natural for the best players such as Flash, JD, Effort, and Fantasy to get the best honors and nicknames.
However, it is Korean fans who made the nicknames for gamers.
Korean fans cheered for different teams.
SKT T1, CJ entus, Woongjin Starts, Wemade Fox, estro, Samsung Khan, Hwaseung OZ etc
Each team had mostly ace cards and they were mostly nicknamed by fans.
Representative team aces are as follows.
SKT T1: Bisu, Best, Fantasy
CJ entus: Effort, Snow
Hite sparkyz: Leta, Horang2
Air Force ACE: Boxer
Samsung Khan: Stork, Jangbi
Woongjin Stars: Free, Zero
MBC game heros: Sea, Light
Hwaseung OZ: JD, Forgg
KT Rolster: Flash, Stats, Nar_la
Wemade Fox: Nada, TY, Midas
estro: Really, Action
STX Soul: Kal, Calm
Korean fans considered their performance in Proleague more important than MSL and OSL. The careers of MSL and OSL were viewed as supporting material for their success at Proleague.
In fact, Skyhigh didn't get much attention even though they made it to the semi-finals in the Star League.
However, he soon gained attention as he scored a reverse all-kill in the Winners League against Hwaseng OZ.
Fans at that time also liked individual leagues such as OSL and MSL, but the most important thing was their performance in Proleague.
Flash is rated as the best gamer, but if you ask the majority of Korean fans about Flash, most of them will mention Proleague first.
The same goes for JD. He had a ridiculously high ZvZ win rate in Proleague.
Ofc, six dragons, there was a title given because he was active in OSL and MSL.
In fact, Flash earned the nickname of the final weapon due to his performance in the Winners League, and JD also earned the nickname of the tyrant due to his performance in the Proleague.
Calm also earned the nickname Brain due to his performance at Proleague.
Before you guys say that Zero and Calm deserve attention, think about what roles Zero and Calm have in Woongjin Stars and STX Soul respectively
Interesting. Why was Proleague more popular/important than the OSL and MSL among Korean fans? Maybe it's just a different perspective for a Westerner like me. Since professional Starcraft is a 1v1 game, determining who the best players are is a lot more important to me than determining who the best overall teams are and the individual leagues do just that with qualifiers and Bo3/Bo5 formats.
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Proleague's existence gave us the promise of diverse sponsorship's, corporate funding for housing and food and the sustainability to continue growing.
Proleague was shut up or walk. Jaedong became my hero by elevating a weak roster and by training with him many Oz players went on to have great careers. There was coaches, teams - it was a full fledged sport.
God damn I miss those days. Remember, when Idra was reporting that Effort was as good as Jaedong in practice like 6 months before Effort became a zerg icon?
Just thinking about the promise of tomorrow that Proleague had has made me pretty nostalgic.
Flash was like a gang member for his team back in proleague. Dude was used as a gladiator so many times.
Did Proleague mean more ... because the players whole team and coach were involved in each game? Now that I said it, I think so
Edit - Also, I think the bo11 that the All-star matches (whatever they are called) is the first format that we can really look at and say, who is the best 1v1 player. There could be improvements like extended 2 day b021 or something but ... that is really quite a lot.
MSL-OSL-KSL-ASL are about, who is the best at showing up and having the heart and nerves to win. The best player does not always play the best under that pressure. Champions prove themselves by shinning under galactic pressure.
Just my dumb-ass opinions.
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On September 07 2020 21:43 KobraKay wrote:
As a CJ fan, never I have I seen Snow as ace (although very sorry because I really like Snow ever since he showed up as a PvT sniper after getting good results for the B team before that).
The team's designated aces and champions (at least on the timeframe where snow existed) were EffOrt and Hydra. You could make a case of us having snipers in Skyhigh or Snow for TvT and PvT respectively, but other than that, CJ leaned heavily on effort and hydra. When effort left, Hydra carried the team and you can argue that the go to protoss at the time would be movie or even Horang2 (after the merger).
Oh sorry, yes, I forgot Hydra. Snow received great attention as a prospect rather than ACE.
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On September 08 2020 05:17 StuDToSs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2020 10:55 Cruiser0929 wrote:
You guys have a fact to remember.
Of course, it is natural for the best players such as Flash, JD, Effort, and Fantasy to get the best honors and nicknames.
However, it is Korean fans who made the nicknames for gamers.
Korean fans cheered for different teams.
SKT T1, CJ entus, Woongjin Starts, Wemade Fox, estro, Samsung Khan, Hwaseung OZ etc
Each team had mostly ace cards and they were mostly nicknamed by fans.
Representative team aces are as follows.
SKT T1: Bisu, Best, Fantasy
CJ entus: Effort, Snow
Hite sparkyz: Leta, Horang2
Air Force ACE: Boxer
Samsung Khan: Stork, Jangbi
Woongjin Stars: Free, Zero
MBC game heros: Sea, Light
Hwaseung OZ: JD, Forgg
KT Rolster: Flash, Stats, Nar_la
Wemade Fox: Nada, TY, Midas
estro: Really, Action
STX Soul: Kal, Calm
Korean fans considered their performance in Proleague more important than MSL and OSL. The careers of MSL and OSL were viewed as supporting material for their success at Proleague.
In fact, Skyhigh didn't get much attention even though they made it to the semi-finals in the Star League.
However, he soon gained attention as he scored a reverse all-kill in the Winners League against Hwaseng OZ.
Fans at that time also liked individual leagues such as OSL and MSL, but the most important thing was their performance in Proleague.
Flash is rated as the best gamer, but if you ask the majority of Korean fans about Flash, most of them will mention Proleague first.
The same goes for JD. He had a ridiculously high ZvZ win rate in Proleague.
Ofc, six dragons, there was a title given because he was active in OSL and MSL.
In fact, Flash earned the nickname of the final weapon due to his performance in the Winners League, and JD also earned the nickname of the tyrant due to his performance in the Proleague.
Calm also earned the nickname Brain due to his performance at Proleague.
Before you guys say that Zero and Calm deserve attention, think about what roles Zero and Calm have in Woongjin Stars and STX Soul respectively
Interesting. Why was Proleague more popular/important than the OSL and MSL among Korean fans? Maybe it's just a different perspective for a Westerner like me. Since professional Starcraft is a 1v1 game, determining who the best players are is a lot more important to me than determining who the best overall teams are and the individual leagues do just that with qualifiers and Bo3/Bo5 formats.
In fact, many fans and gamers thought MSL and OSL were tournaments for the honor of each player.
At the time, pro gamers were motivated to win Proleague unconditionally, for the companies that supported their team, and for the team.
Many gamers haven't invested much practice time in MSL and OSL. They used the remaining time after training for the Proleague to prepare for MSL and OSL.
The Proleague format was a 1vs1 game, but in the end the team had to win was a top priority.
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Most gamers' nicknames and storytelling originate from Proleague.
Why Flash was called the final weapon.
He was losing 3-0 in the Winners League, but he was smiling and the casters saw him laughing and said, "Team is losing but Flash is smiling!" I was astonished.
And Flash did a reverse-all kill and surprised the fans.
In addition, JD, as well as his performance in the Winners League, was important, but the important thing is that the map used in each season was different in the Pro League.
This was the reason why there were many games like TvT ZvZ PvP in the Pro League. All teams analyzed the maps used in the Pro League and figured out which races were good to play.
But as you all know, there were many sayings that ZvZ, TvT, and PvP are 50:50 games.
You need to know what Shine said when evaluating JD and I'll let you know now
Shine said it was almost impossible to win if the build order was at a disadvantage against JD. And even if the build order was the same, it was difficult to win.
Even more surprisingly, if the build order was advantageous against JD, the game became a 5:5 game.
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