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TvZ - Flash's 5 Factory Goliath Build Order

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
SCWes
Profile Joined May 2018
Canada74 Posts
August 14 2019 12:52 GMT
#1
Here is a picture of it.

Here is an excel version with other builds (go to TvZ tab at the bottom)

Thanks to JinJin5000 for the translation of Flash's guide
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28646 Posts
August 14 2019 12:58 GMT
#2
very good job! thanks!
Moderator
iFU.spx
Profile Joined April 2011
Russian Federation369 Posts
August 14 2019 12:59 GMT
#3
awesome work!
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1405 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-14 15:53:38
August 14 2019 15:53 GMT
#4
Thx

Why does the build (or mb mech TvZ in general) use plating first instead of attack upgrade? Because it's better against muta-bounce? Gols don't profit too much from attack first because of dmg types?
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-14 17:38:44
August 14 2019 17:24 GMT
#5
On August 15 2019 00:53 Highgamer wrote:
Thx

Why does the build (or mb mech TvZ in general) use plating first instead of attack upgrade? Because it's better against muta-bounce? Gols don't profit too much from attack first because of dmg types?


Zerg attacks are: 5 dmg ling. 10 dmg hydra. 9-3-1 dmg muta. All low dmg which would benefit Terran a lot of using Armor.

Terran attacks are: 6 dmg marine (Weapon upgrade clearly is an advantage here as its low dmg), 12 dmg Goliath which doesnt benefit much from +1 dmg vs ground as it wont change the number of shots vs lings nor hydras (12*3= 36, 12*6= 72, 13*6= 78). Armor on the other hand vs Mutas remove 1 dmg per each attacks bounce. 9-3-1 becomes 8-2-0,5 .

A +2 Armor increase to a total of 3 Armor would decrease Muta damage to 6-0,5-0,5. Making the bounce clearly worthless.

As for battling Mutas it would be silly to not use this to your advantage. As when mutas becomes a solid 2-3 groups. They will only be able to kill the unit they aim on and not kill by bounce.

Mutas vs Gols: 8+2+0,5= 10,5 total dmg. 7+1+0,5= 8.5... 6+0,5+0,5= 7... 10,5 to 8.5 to 7. A solid decrease of ~33% with +2 Armor(Total 3).

Max upgraded Mutas and Gols: (Muta dmg: 12-4-1) = 8-0,5-0,5= 9... ~47% decrease in dmg.

Edit: This also explains why Mutas are better off upgrading Armor instead. As the dmg part of air-upgrade is mostly Mutas and as you can see in a late game they would become worthless vs 4 armor and i would argue even vs 3 armor. You would be better off saving the Gas instead and find a way around with defiler/ling/hydra/ultras.
-.-
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28646 Posts
August 14 2019 17:48 GMT
#6
oh such a blessing to see people write 0.5 for the muta bounces instead of saying 'mutas lose 3 attack per enemy armor'. I was making your post but you made it first, gj!

expanding a tiny bit, armor is great vs everything for goliaths. unupgraded lings go from 4 to 3, mutas go from 8-2-0.5 to 7-1.0.5, hydras from 9 to 8. for lings this means 43 instead of 32 attacks, for hydras it's 16 instead of 14.
Moderator
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1405 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-14 21:27:06
August 14 2019 20:00 GMT
#7
Thx guys. One day I'll sit down and study the BW armor system, rest assured.

edit: On second thought, couldn't one of you sit down and wrap it all up in one nice tutorial-video?
10 min max please, and no charts. And you can skip the bad matchups that don't involve Terran.
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
August 14 2019 22:04 GMT
#8
On August 15 2019 05:00 Highgamer wrote:
Thx guys. One day I'll sit down and study the BW armor system, rest assured.

edit: On second thought, couldn't one of you sit down and wrap it all up in one nice tutorial-video?
10 min max please, and no charts. And you can skip the bad matchups that don't involve Terran.

Lmfao
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
August 15 2019 07:58 GMT
#9
The Armor System for "Normal" dmg is just addition/subtraction. Except for the other two dmg types with percentage decreases (Concussive/Explosive).

The lowest dmg that can be done is 0.5. This is also the dmg you take when you are matrix'd. Where 2 shots is 1 dmg. (The Matrix itself has no armor and 200 HP. With low enough dmg you could kill a unit before Matrix is destroyed, which would be 200 shots with 1 dmg, doing 99(.5) dmg to a unit.)

A Marine vs Ling would be just addition/subtraction.

Ghost vs Dragoon. Ghost do Concussive dmg meaning they do 50% final dmg vs Medium units and 25% final dmg vs Large units. Dragoons have Explosive dmg meaning they do 75% final dmg vs Medium units and 50% final dmg vs Small units.

And with "final dmg" i mean the percentage is calculated last.

Ghost +1 wep dmg = 10+1 = 11 * .25 (vs Dragoon(Large)) = 2.75 dmg. Do note the .75 part of the dmg wont show up on your first shot as you can only see integers in the game (whole numbers). The calculation in-game however do remember the fractional dmg and will be applied upon further shots towards the Dragoon. 2.75 * 3 = 8.25. You would see 8 dmg done and not 2.5 * 3 = 7(.5) dmg.

This is also the case with Mutas bounce. A +1 attack upgrade gives 100% upgrade added to main attack, 33(.33)% upgrade to first bounce, and 11(.11)% upgrade to second bounce. For a total of 144.44% value of that +1 upgrade.

So id say a video isnt necessary to explain this. It would only be good for empirical testing.

Which unit is what Size and their dmg type: (Wiki)Unit Statistics
-.-
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1405 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-15 19:13:23
August 15 2019 08:46 GMT
#10
Thx a lot for the explanation, guess I have to study charts after all.

I was joking about the video obviously... I'm not one of those who think they could demand that everything is served on a silver plate here.
But I do think that a large number of players, beginners or such who never really bothered to "study BW", would really appreciate a well made series about this, be it in video format or written with some well arranged charts/statistics.
A tutorial that, like you do, also explains how the system works basically, but more importantly: One that quickly goes through the different matchups (so that people can chose theirs) and sums up why you do or do not build unit X against Y because of how their damage/armor interact, as well as exceptions, where you still build a certain unit as a counter to another for other reasons than the armor/damage-system.

"Then sit down and do it yourself", weeeell......


edit: @SCWes Thx for sharing the excel-sheets. I hope TvP and TvT will get some love there some day, too.
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
August 15 2019 13:50 GMT
#11
Keep playing and most comes with experience. Reading numbers/charts really doesnt help without the basic understanding of the game. Its just a bonus really to dish out that last percent of advantage which could have been overlooked.
-.-
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