On May 15 2019 11:53 konadora wrote: huge savior fan but also an objective one
the most recent accomplishment i can think of was him starting the whole simcity wall-in thing on tornado versus pusan, because i don't remember any zerg really doing this before he did.
[youtube]
memory fails me but i can't remember too much before this.
this is a great summary of why he's known as one of the greatest of all time. despite what he did afterwards and how he slumped, we cannot take away what he accomplished and how.
Thanks konadora. That was a pretty nice game, and indeed innovating zerg simcity is respectable.
I think that article asserts his dominance of the scene well, but the in-depth descriptions of individual plays felt a bit pointless. Everything was exaggerated as an example of Savior's godlike play. For example in one of the examples he puts his army between the Terran's push and the Terran's base, something the same article later argues is the key to a ZvT midgame, but while we're talking about Savior, it's "doing 5 things at once with his army", etc etc.
The article points out that he innovated 3hat muta and it gave him inconceivable success in ZvT. So that was useful to know too (I got interested in the scene about right after Savior started slumping post defeat to Bisu). I guess we never got a proper chance to see whether he could maintain his prime because he was consumed by all his other bullshit and terrible attitude.
Anyways yeah, this isn't supposed to be an argument about Savior, just wanted to offer my thanks and thoughts. Though I still think anyone who says that games like the one you linked are "the height of Brood War skill", aka better than subsequent games, they're dreaming >_>
few people already brought it up but whenever this question gets asked my mind immediately jumps to the flash v jd power outage game. what a huge shame that was.
On May 15 2019 11:53 konadora wrote: huge savior fan but also an objective one
the most recent accomplishment i can think of was him starting the whole simcity wall-in thing on tornado versus pusan, because i don't remember any zerg really doing this before he did.
[youtube]
memory fails me but i can't remember too much before this.
this is a great summary of why he's known as one of the greatest of all time. despite what he did afterwards and how he slumped, we cannot take away what he accomplished and how.
Thanks konadora. That was a pretty nice game, and indeed innovating zerg simcity is respectable.
I think that article asserts his dominance of the scene well, but the in-depth descriptions of individual plays felt a bit pointless. Everything was exaggerated as an example of Savior's godlike play. For example in one of the examples he puts his army between the Terran's push and the Terran's base, something the same article later argues is the key to a ZvT midgame, but while we're talking about Savior, it's "doing 5 things at once with his army", etc etc.
The article points out that he innovated 3hat muta and it gave him inconceivable success in ZvT. So that was useful to know too (I got interested in the scene about right after Savior started slumping post defeat to Bisu). I guess we never got a proper chance to see whether he could maintain his prime because he was consumed by all his other bullshit and terrible attitude.
Anyways yeah, this isn't supposed to be an argument about Savior, just wanted to offer my thanks and thoughts. Though I still think anyone who says that games like the one you linked are "the height of Brood War skill", aka better than subsequent games, they're dreaming >_>
its no exaggeration dude. savior was called the maestro because he really played like that, like a conductor. He would always have scourge pop just a second before a dropship came in to land, lurkers would get behind an enemy just in time to ambush the retreating army, yada yada. Tactically the best player in broodwar history.
something the same article later argues is the key to a ZvT midgame, but while we're talking about Savior, it's "doing 5 things at once with his army", etc etc.
Every key feature of zvt, the muta harass, the droning phase, lurker ling backstabs to buy time for hive blah blah, were all created in a systematic way by savior. The reason the article hangs on his tactical play is that is where his specialty lay relative to other zergs. Yes, other zergs do/did that, but they didnt do it as well/depend on it to the same degree.
very cool thread with a grain of nostalgia. Apart from all the games here i can only remember seeing hwasin's crazy good micro in some games i cant even link. having in mind all the eye popping moments of micro seeing in the kespa days, something about the skill cap being lower seems to be legit, because its such a rarity nowdays. its about the level of execution, and that can be because there is no strict training schedule of the players, there are no progaming houses and they are grown up men doing many other things in life. Thats why i think nowdays we cant have that level of domination and every player can be defeated when his opponent puts enough time for preparation. However i see so many new builds, because players put their attention more in that to outsmart the other player while macro and micro skills are maintained to an acceptable level to be competitive, rather than practicing one thing a thousand times to perfection. I have many videos to watch from this thread, and it just reminded me of how much passion broodwar had back in the day.
Stork vs. Flash first time ever meet in a tournament. Stork wins 3-0. This is the second match that i watched:
On Flash's side there was a great ''turtle siege pressure'' by Flash in Stork's main base, but instead of defending it, Stork makes a new secret base and saves all his probes via shuttle while doing counter harassment at the same time in Flash's main base. Also on Storks side we see outstanding reaver control, that only Snow could execute on his best day, Stork's scout kills 3 tanks and some marines, that alone is a must watch.
On May 14 2019 11:33 Turbovolver wrote:...oh the person saying that it eclipses all modern games is a sAviOr fan. That explains it.
Another day I watched old sAviOr's game and noticed a moment when he was flying over the terran's base with his mutastack. One moment he suddenly faced a lonely marine which wasn't supposed to be there (forgotten by a terran player or something), and sAviOr sniped him with his mutas not slowing for a split second or change route for a split degree.
You may not recognize such things and how difficult they are if you are not a zerg player or didn't practice muta micro much. But even then you can see how players like mIsO (decent modern zerg) lose a mutalisk or two just because of coming too close doing a hold position technique or missing shots because doing it too far away. Man, I can't imagine old KeSPA coaches to put a guy like this to play ZvT on Proleague.
I'm not a sAviOr's fan from 2005, I didn't even see most of his games from those times and started to watch in 2008. But my point is that if you can't see the perfection the old pros had which the modern players do not have, maybe you just prefer to rather chat on Twitch than actually watch the games carefully. Of course meta shifted much and modern players have much more basic knowledge to work with, but the way they execute it IMHO is miles below from what it used to be.
That said, I still watch almost every single ASL and KSL game.
This is a very confused post. Assuming I am incapable of appreciating true skill (and gross, suggesting I enjoy Twitch chat) all because one time, sAviOr did a really good job of killing a single marine.
Are there any good games of sAviOr still around to watch on Youtube? I'd like to watch one that a fan would say really demonstrates his abilities.
sAviOr to me is the guy who got embarrassed by FBH's battlecruisers* and match fixed because he started to get overtaken by better players. But this is an open invitation for his fans to link me a game that might change my mind.
* Given the proliferation of this strategy in modern TvZ I would like to instead nominate that FBH was a genius ahead of his time
huge savior fan but also an objective one
the most recent accomplishment i can think of was him starting the whole simcity wall-in thing on tornado versus pusan, because i don't remember any zerg really doing this before he did.
memory fails me but i can't remember too much before this.
this is a great summary of why he's known as one of the greatest of all time. despite what he did afterwards and how he slumped, we cannot take away what he accomplished and how.
I remembered this game, it was okay and Pusan wasn't so good at that time even for sAviOr it would have been a disappointment to lose vs him. Btw he played this way for the next 4 years on fish server on fs. If he wasn't taking far third he would simply hydra push, very lazy gameplay but efficient, we already lost him at that time as he was making no effort to improve obviously. I believe there should be much better games from him during fish era. Mostly z v p.
sAviOr vs Iris 5th game on Neo Arkanoid in MSL semis still doesn't make any sense everytime I watch it. I love it, but there certainly is some irrational part in it. I was such a huge sAviOr fan... But in term of high level of play by both players, this is the best I've watched :
50min of perfection. A pity I can't find it in better quality (but the sAviOr game is worse...).
On May 14 2019 11:33 Turbovolver wrote:...oh the person saying that it eclipses all modern games is a sAviOr fan. That explains it.
Another day I watched old sAviOr's game and noticed a moment when he was flying over the terran's base with his mutastack. One moment he suddenly faced a lonely marine which wasn't supposed to be there (forgotten by a terran player or something), and sAviOr sniped him with his mutas not slowing for a split second or change route for a split degree.
You may not recognize such things and how difficult they are if you are not a zerg player or didn't practice muta micro much. But even then you can see how players like mIsO (decent modern zerg) lose a mutalisk or two just because of coming too close doing a hold position technique or missing shots because doing it too far away. Man, I can't imagine old KeSPA coaches to put a guy like this to play ZvT on Proleague.
I'm not a sAviOr's fan from 2005, I didn't even see most of his games from those times and started to watch in 2008. But my point is that if you can't see the perfection the old pros had which the modern players do not have, maybe you just prefer to rather chat on Twitch than actually watch the games carefully. Of course meta shifted much and modern players have much more basic knowledge to work with, but the way they execute it IMHO is miles below from what it used to be.
That said, I still watch almost every single ASL and KSL game.
This is a very confused post. Assuming I am incapable of appreciating true skill (and gross, suggesting I enjoy Twitch chat) all because one time, sAviOr did a really good job of killing a single marine.
Are there any good games of sAviOr still around to watch on Youtube? I'd like to watch one that a fan would say really demonstrates his abilities.
sAviOr to me is the guy who got embarrassed by FBH's battlecruisers* and match fixed because he started to get overtaken by better players. But this is an open invitation for his fans to link me a game that might change my mind.
* Given the proliferation of this strategy in modern TvZ I would like to instead nominate that FBH was a genius ahead of his time
huge savior fan but also an objective one
the most recent accomplishment i can think of was him starting the whole simcity wall-in thing on tornado versus pusan, because i don't remember any zerg really doing this before he did.
Are you talking about just simcity wall-in for zvp in general or on tornado specifically? Because the first time I remember seeing the whole wall-in thing against speedlot/archon was Shark vs Reach on destination. + Show Spoiler +
Yeah IIRC Destination was that map that really made simcity an important skill in the meta. In the first few weeks of that map Protoss were crushing zergs with speed zealot + archon attacks, but then zergs started using simcity to defend and totally flipped the balance of the map. I'm not super familiar with pre-2008 PvZ but from VODs I've seen (for instance savior vs bisu MSL finals) zergs weren't really doing much simcity and just placing their sunkens all alone in front of expos like vs terran, but after destination's simcity became popular zergs ended up doing it on every map. Maybe I'm way off though.
Damn I forgot that Shark not only discovered muta-stacking but also invented (or at least contributed to) modern zerg simcity :O . 2 huge contributions to the game, shame he never really got great results though :\
About a month before sAviOr won his first OSL series against NaDa (3-1), the two of them actually played a series in the CJ Superfight III, where the result was the same (sAviOr winning 3-1).
Game 2 CJ Superfight III on Neo-Arkanoid has always been a favorite of mine. Not sure why everyone always talks about sAviOr vs Iris on this map, when this game was much better.
This was when NaDa was the only Terran player capable of doing 'sk terran'.
EPT
