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On March 13 2019 01:10 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 00:42 Dazed. wrote:On March 12 2019 22:19 Drake wrote:On March 12 2019 07:30 Dazed. wrote:On March 12 2019 03:41 BigFan wrote:On March 12 2019 01:38 Dazed. wrote:On March 11 2019 23:01 BigFan wrote:On March 11 2019 11:28 vOdToasT wrote:On March 11 2019 08:05 BisuDagger wrote:On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote:
It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc. Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second. I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early. People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this. Why? Seems like a pretty arbitrary line. Dont fix any bugs! Huh? The game is fine as is, we don't need any fix. There is a ton of stuff like BD mentioned regarding the client and such that can be fixed without playing with the game's code and Blizzard need to keep their hands off of that. Lucky for us, they seem to understand this and likely woudl not touch it. You can say its fine, but that doesnt mean it is; people can now make units for half the cost on ladder or tourny, that isnt acceptable, whether or not bigfan claims so. Archons are useful against Zerg, but it seems like zerg still have numerous ways of ending the game before this even comes in to play Yes zerg often can beat protoss before late game, no, protoss reaching archon tech is not rare or all together challenging, and so half cost archons arent acceptable just because zerg can bust a toss earlier than that. as can people use burrowed lurkers and all the other bug abuses, its fine sometimes i fell its always fine until its something P has then it needs to be fixed xD if u remove it why not remove dragoon movebugs ? no u wont do that so dont fix it either not all bugs are fine. producing units for half cost for instance, is not fine. Any late game scenario where a protoss is mineral low and has some gas banked, now hes double the threat. That situation isnt really all together rare...a lot of pvz's are going to come down to a few archons battling z over a key location. Only now that number will be doubled for nothing more than the guy researched hallucination and put like...thirty seconds of effort into doubling his best late game unit? There are bugs that arguably add to the games skill set and increase the strategy-- mutalisk micro for instance-- and then there are glitches that give people free units. That is not acceptable. Unless this is something that is truly fucking hard to pull off, it will eventually be figured out, the skill set regularized, and even random noobs like me will use it with regularity in ladder games. People power boost workers, they do every little inane and difficult thing they possibly can to take an advantage. How could anyone think that this isnt something people are going to learn to do reliably? And once they do it reliably, pvz is fucked. Air unit stacking is not a bug. It is clever usage of intended unit behaviour. Units aren't supposed to maintain formation when they are too spread out, because then they would remain at opposite sides of the map when ordered to move somewhere. To fix that, Blizzard made units attempt to move to the exact same point, instead of staying in formation, when they are too far away from each other. You use this by selecting a unit from far away with your group. This archon technique is not as easy as you claim. Because the hallucinations must be older than the templars used, and hallucinations expire with time, this is difficult to do while also doing other things. It also uses up control groups. Most maps are statistically somewhat Zerg favoured in ZvP. A little boost to Protoss is not going to be a problem on those maps. If a small boost to Terran emerged, on the other hand, then that would perhaps be a problem. You can refuse to call it a glitch if you want, for whatever semantical value you think that gives you. But, its not clever usage of intended unit behaviour, its glitching a poorly thought out unit movement process, because no one thought of unit stacking. No one thought of it until almost seven years after the game was out. That isnt clever use, its figuring out how to glitch a poorly designed element of the game. And it happened to add a lot to the game, in terms of micro, builds, hell its the only thing that even makes zvt viable. Take out muta stacking and the zvt win rate would bottom out real fucking fast, so we keep it. Theres no fair comparison between muta stacking and spawning units for half cost-- incredibly powerful, matchup defining units, at that.
This archon technique is not as easy as you claim. Because the hallucinations must be older than the templars used, and hallucinations expire with time, this is difficult to do while also doing other things. It also uses up control groups. Everything in bw is difficult, and all of it is learnable to a second nature degree. Its not exactly impossible to research hallucination, then time out your rotation of high templars in a game. It might take some doing, yes, but people will sit there and reload the same parts of the game till they get the timing and movement down. This is an imminently learnable and reproducible glitch.
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On March 13 2019 01:20 Dazed. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 01:10 vOdToasT wrote:On March 13 2019 00:42 Dazed. wrote:On March 12 2019 22:19 Drake wrote:On March 12 2019 07:30 Dazed. wrote:On March 12 2019 03:41 BigFan wrote:On March 12 2019 01:38 Dazed. wrote:On March 11 2019 23:01 BigFan wrote:On March 11 2019 11:28 vOdToasT wrote:On March 11 2019 08:05 BisuDagger wrote:
[quote]
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second. I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early. People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this. Why? Seems like a pretty arbitrary line. Dont fix any bugs! Huh? The game is fine as is, we don't need any fix. There is a ton of stuff like BD mentioned regarding the client and such that can be fixed without playing with the game's code and Blizzard need to keep their hands off of that. Lucky for us, they seem to understand this and likely woudl not touch it. You can say its fine, but that doesnt mean it is; people can now make units for half the cost on ladder or tourny, that isnt acceptable, whether or not bigfan claims so. Archons are useful against Zerg, but it seems like zerg still have numerous ways of ending the game before this even comes in to play Yes zerg often can beat protoss before late game, no, protoss reaching archon tech is not rare or all together challenging, and so half cost archons arent acceptable just because zerg can bust a toss earlier than that. as can people use burrowed lurkers and all the other bug abuses, its fine sometimes i fell its always fine until its something P has then it needs to be fixed xD if u remove it why not remove dragoon movebugs ? no u wont do that so dont fix it either not all bugs are fine. producing units for half cost for instance, is not fine. Any late game scenario where a protoss is mineral low and has some gas banked, now hes double the threat. That situation isnt really all together rare...a lot of pvz's are going to come down to a few archons battling z over a key location. Only now that number will be doubled for nothing more than the guy researched hallucination and put like...thirty seconds of effort into doubling his best late game unit? There are bugs that arguably add to the games skill set and increase the strategy-- mutalisk micro for instance-- and then there are glitches that give people free units. That is not acceptable. Unless this is something that is truly fucking hard to pull off, it will eventually be figured out, the skill set regularized, and even random noobs like me will use it with regularity in ladder games. People power boost workers, they do every little inane and difficult thing they possibly can to take an advantage. How could anyone think that this isnt something people are going to learn to do reliably? And once they do it reliably, pvz is fucked. Air unit stacking is not a bug. It is clever usage of intended unit behaviour. Units aren't supposed to maintain formation when they are too spread out, because then they would remain at opposite sides of the map when ordered to move somewhere. To fix that, Blizzard made units attempt to move to the exact same point, instead of staying in formation, when they are too far away from each other. You use this by selecting a unit from far away with your group. This archon technique is not as easy as you claim. Because the hallucinations must be older than the templars used, and hallucinations expire with time, this is difficult to do while also doing other things. It also uses up control groups. Most maps are statistically somewhat Zerg favoured in ZvP. A little boost to Protoss is not going to be a problem on those maps. If a small boost to Terran emerged, on the other hand, then that would perhaps be a problem. Its not clever usage of intended unit behaviour, its glitching a poorly thought out unit movement process, because no one thought of unit stacking. No one thought of it until almost seven years after the game was out. That isnt clever use, its figuring out how to glitch a poorly designed element of the game. And it happened to add a lot to the game, in terms of micro, builds, hell its the only thing that even makes zvt viable. Take out muta stacking and the zvt win rate would bottom out real fucking fast, so we keep it. Theres no fair comparison between muta stacking and spawning units for half cost-- incredibly powerful, matchup defining units, at that. Show nested quote +This archon technique is not as easy as you claim. Because the hallucinations must be older than the templars used, and hallucinations expire with time, this is difficult to do while also doing other things. It also uses up control groups. Everything in bw is difficult, and all of it is learnable to a second nature degree. Its not exactly difficult to research hallucination, then time out your rotation of high templars in a game. It might take some doing, yes, but people will sit there and reload the same parts of the game till they get the timing and movement down. This is an imminently learnable and reproducible glitch.
They literally hard coded units to move to the same exact point if they are far away from each other, and to stay in formation if they are close to each other. They wanted a formation feature, but they had to put an area limit on it. The solution was to make spread out units move to the exact same point. It was intended. You can make use of this by keeping a unit far away in your group. Intended behaviour, unforeseen consequence of that behaviour. It's not a compile error. It's not even a logical error. It's not a bug in any sense of the word.
In the same way, they made workers float through each other when mining in order to prevent them from getting stuck in the mineral line. This allows people to float through enemy units to escape chasing zerglings. Intended behaviour, unforeseen consequence of that behaviour.
Yes, people are going to learn this despite it being hard. But difficulty changes how much people can do it. Double control group muta micro, for example, has been used, but the difficulty of the technique diminished its effect. If double control muta micro was as easy as single control group muta micro, then, the effect would be massive. One shotting turrets, sniping depots, etc.
Because this new technique is,
1: hard
and 2: fun
we should give it a chance before we snuff it out.
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On March 13 2019 00:42 Dazed. wrote:
a lot of pvz's are going to come down to a few archons battling z over a key location.
On March 13 2019 00:42 Dazed. wrote:
And once they do it reliably, pvz is fucked.
Are we talking about the same game?
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BW is lucky enough to be so old that there are "bugs" that are very hard, if not impossible to "fix". If you look at modern games, there is pretty much no real depth. There is no technique like muta micro that people find over years and learn to perfect. You get what the devs tell you and even if someone finds something cool (like the void ray charge bug in early WOL) it gets fixed immediatly. Because devs see it as mistakes in their code, not a chance for the game to expand. I really love the first-second generation of eSports games from a time when patching was (almost) impossible on consoles and fairly limited on PC. All of those games have some hidden mechanics that come from bugs, but end up really enhancing the game and widening the skill gap. I think this new archon bug speaks to the depth of BW and I for one am very happy to see new things being discovered over time. BW evolves and developes by itself, with no intervention from the devs. Almost every other current eSport relies on dev patches for any changes to happen. We haven't seen it used once in an offline event, so even if anyone even wants to consider removing this, I'd atleast advice to wait until we see it in use and can judge it's impact on the meta. I for one am glad to see that protoss players get a new skill to master!
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is it really hard to patch it so that when a HT morphes with a halu HT, instead of just taking the index of the later one to decide whether the resulting archon is going to be real or halu, it will check both index and if one is halu then the archon is halu or the morph impossible????
did the muta trick actually improve BW or worsen it? zvt would be too hard on modern maps without it, so i hear, but maybe the maps would be different, and maybe this match up would not so repeatedly open itself with 3hatch muta stuff. Quite likely 1base pvz would be playable, at the very least more playable, because you wouldn't need the corsairs to deal with muta like you pretty much do now.
Whatever^^
(if it comes up that 1base opening in pvz becomes more viable because of this "half free archon" bug, i would probably just start doing it but what happens when you play lan and such? its just messy isn't it. Also wouldn't want a situation where you'd actually nearly have to use this every game if you do 1base opening for example. I guess we will see if tourney organisers decide that this is a forbidden bug or not [you lose the game if you used it]. And then, can you report a ladder opponent to get win if he did like on Iccup. I guess let's see what comes up of it for a while. . . Also : can it be fixed without messing 1.16 replays working on SC:R. I guess yes because it would not actually impact any replays that don't use the bug, depending how it is fixed. But then new 1.16 replays using the bug are going to bug. If not, can SC:R load a alternate code to play old version replays, suggested it before imo would be ideal for a developped RTS like Starcraft to be able to patch it without losing older replays)
150/150 cost for halu research, and you can already get a full free archon out of producing 2 more HTs after the 1st of your first two HTs has accumulated 100 energy (quite soon since they start at 50). That's already 100/300 worth of generation using bug, so you're at -50/+150, not to mention you didn't need to have extra gate production time to produce 2 extra HT for making an extra archon. Do it one more time using 2nd HT energy and you got another free archon and you're at +50/+450. Very soon you'd be able to do it with more templars, and start accumulating energy in your base and get that counter up to +450/+1950 and counting. Fair? Usable, but depends on lat? How annoying to do? just my thoughts as I have not actually tried to do it so far other than offline which doesn't work apparently. ps: ok it works on slowest speed on 1.16, pretty annoying to do CTRL1-1-R as fast as possible it looks like^^
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On March 11 2019 08:02 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 06:57 TwiggyWan wrote:
It's like every bullshit glitch is for the protoss race. Coincidence? I think not If only we could find a way to lay spidermines for free.
I said bullshit glitch, not feature :p
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Not really, you still need to get to late game... 🤔
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
This trick can be performed with multiple hallucinated templars at once. You just select multiple hallucinations prior to the shift+1, 1 trick. The key is to arrange the hts with the fakes so every other templar is a hallucinated one. If multiple half priced archons can be made consistently by pros then this definitely becomes more overpowered.
To add to the fun, you can also stasis glitch them too so as to give them an extra powerful feel! :D
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/AdH9CYG.jpg)
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Holy shit that's hilarious
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
On March 14 2019 02:19 riotjune wrote:
Holy shit that's hilarious
Works for DAs too. Theoretically you could make 6 at a time.
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I was going to ask if you can make half priced Dark Archons. I guess BisuDagger answered my question haha.
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
On March 14 2019 03:29 deathgod6 wrote:
I was going to ask if you can make half priced Dark Archons. I guess BisuDagger answered my question haha.
I tried hallucinating so many things. One attempt was to hallucinate a worker, select a real worker and the halucinations, then use the now available gather command to mine minerals. Unfortunately it did not work for minerals or gas lol. Also, you cannot hallucinate an interceptor.
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I read this post on the battlenet forums:
There are players who already created an optimized timing push build (5 zealots + 2 archons vs zerg) with this bug.
Is that real or even practical?
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On March 14 2019 06:36 Alpha-NP- wrote:I read this post on the battlenet forums: Show nested quote +There are players who already created an optimized timing push build (5 zealots + 2 archons vs zerg) with this bug. Is that real or even practical?
I doubt it being effective that early :p
I could see it together with 12 ~ zelots and 4 archons or something (if it works well, i havn't tried it myself). I don't think it'll be hard to defend with a good sim city and sunkens though. It might work on some maps?
I think people just want drama, and over hype any change just like what happened with the "game breaking" mass recall. I do hope this will get used in ASL/KSL or something, it would be fun to see!
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I will go ahead and make a prediction:
This funny little trick won't metter at all at high level games. In PvT this will never be a thing, not now not ever, in PvP it could be somehow useful in a super long super rare game were minerals on map are running out, In PvZ its a rather dumb idea to expend so much gas at mass Archons, Protoss make Archons vs Z with the templars that have already made their job and stormed their asses off, same as with PvP I can imagine a rare case scenario were it becomes somehow useful or viable but meh...
I think we will be very very lucky if we ever get to see this trick just one time in a game that metters.
I would say lets be cautious and not call the game imbalance police just yet, I think we are fine for now, lol
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In case I'm wrong and this completely breaks BW balance we still have Age Of Empires II for us all to transition to. I have nice monk rush build I've been working on I'm willing to share with you... 
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On March 14 2019 06:36 Alpha-NP- wrote:I read this post on the battlenet forums: Show nested quote +There are players who already created an optimized timing push build (5 zealots + 2 archons vs zerg) with this bug. Is that real or even practical?
Getting hallucination before storm = new meta on bnet forums...
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I support this change, thanks blizzard.
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On March 14 2019 06:36 Alpha-NP- wrote:I read this post on the battlenet forums: Show nested quote +There are players who already created an optimized timing push build (5 zealots + 2 archons vs zerg) with this bug. Is that real or even practical?
No. Two Archons doesn't make any sense, since you need to hallucinate another templar which can't be used to merge with a hallucination.
It would have to be 3 Archons. Where 2 Archons come from 1 Hallucinate + 1 Fresh Templar, and the 3rd Archon comes from the original templar that cast hallucinate plus the templar that had to exist to be hallucinated.
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EPT
