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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On March 12 2019 01:38 Dazed. wrote: Why? Seems like a pretty arbitrary line. Dont fix any bugs! Huh? The game is fine as is, we don't need any fix. There is a ton of stuff like BD mentioned regarding the client and such that can be fixed without playing with the game's code and Blizzard need to keep their hands off of that. Lucky for us, they seem to understand this and likely woudl not touch it. | ||
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bObA
France300 Posts
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errol1001
454 Posts
Archons are useful against Zerg, but it seems like zerg still have numerous ways of ending the game before this even comes in to play. Also, hydras are pretty good against archons as well - maybe not half priced archons, but how much would this change the matchup? There's a large opportunity cost here. Archons are already "half priced" in a way because you generally are morphing them from templar that have used storm. You are actually still consuming a lot of templar to do this - Between having to cast hallucination on an old templar with 100 mana, and having to merge a hallucination with a fresh templar (so doesn't have any opportunity to cast storm). I need this to rock until it's proven to be a problem.... | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On March 12 2019 03:41 BigFan wrote: You can say its fine, but that doesnt mean it is; people can now make units for half the cost on ladder or tourny, that isnt acceptable, whether or not bigfan claims so.The game is fine as is, we don't need any fix. There is a ton of stuff like BD mentioned regarding the client and such that can be fixed without playing with the game's code and Blizzard need to keep their hands off of that. Lucky for us, they seem to understand this and likely woudl not touch it. Archons are useful against Zerg, but it seems like zerg still have numerous ways of ending the game before this even comes in to play Yes zerg often can beat protoss before late game, no, protoss reaching archon tech is not rare or all together challenging, and so half cost archons arent acceptable just because zerg can bust a toss earlier than that. | ||
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Navane
Netherlands2748 Posts
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errol1001
454 Posts
I'd now like to hear reasoning as to why this isn't acceptable. And to be clear, this glitch does not equate with archons being half-cost. It is much, much different than that. If the glitch was such that you could just take one templar, and morph it into an archon, with no strings attached... Ok, sure. I'm not convinced that this would affect winrates significantly enough to be a problem. I think someone needs to show that this is a problem before it is patched or before it is banned. | ||
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Jealous
10170 Posts
On March 12 2019 09:30 errol1001 wrote: I heard "half cost archons aren't acceptable". I tried to think of the problems with this glitch and why it might be acceptable. I'd now like to hear reasoning as to why this isn't acceptable. And to be clear, this glitch does not equate with archons being half-cost. It is much, much different than that. If the glitch was such that you could just take one templar, and morph it into an archon, with no strings attached... Ok, sure. I'm not convinced that this would affect winrates significantly enough to be a problem. I think someone needs to show that this is a problem before it is patched or before it is banned. I am not certain that it is an issue that needs patching (I'd like to see more games first and rely on progamer opinions), but if I were to pick the most convincing reason as to why it should be: Late game PvZ when the map is nearly depleted. This is the time when Protoss starts going heavy Archon/Templar compositions. Templar are 50 minerals each and gas is basically infinite, meaning if you are camping behind defenses with Corsair/DA/HT/Reaver, you can presumably have twice the Archon count you would for the same amount of minerals. This is a situation in which you WOULD actually get the half price Archons, because you already have a standard force of HT and you can just use a couple to make consistent hallucinations for fresh Templar. Late game PvZ's of this nature are extremely rare, but just the knowledge that Protoss can do this in the late game adds to their arsenal and can impact how both Protoss and Zerg choose to approach the latter stages of the game. If Protoss knows that they can just turtle bank up 2000 minerals and use that to make 40 Archons instead of 20, that is a significant difference IMO. Would Protoss be more motivated to play passive in the late game and focus on holding onto bases/depleted geysers? Would Zerg opt for perhaps riskier aggression in order to prevent it from happening? Only time will tell, but I think that this is the biggest concern facing this issue. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway702 Posts
First of all, this requires a lot of work. I still havent seen total recall ruining tvp like a lot of terran players feared, and this is even harder. Secondly, there are bugs in broodwar that are illegal. Like allied mines etc, so tournaments could just ban it if it turned out to be a problem. | ||
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kopuhg
2 Posts
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Jealous
10170 Posts
It's always easier to be a critic, but it's even easier to be a critic of a critic. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Trozz
Canada3454 Posts
protoss changes latency, call shenanigans. | ||
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errol1001
454 Posts
On March 12 2019 11:54 Jealous wrote: I am not certain that it is an issue that needs patching (I'd like to see more games first and rely on progamer opinions), but if I were to pick the most convincing reason as to why it should be: <truncated> Good points. I think if it ends up causing a lot of games to degenerate into this kind of scenario, it isn't worth keeping. I also think the decision on this should be made based on progamer input, more games, etc. How about this: I'm ok with Blizzard patching this out only after the community has decided that it should be banned. THEN it could be patched out. (Community mostly meaning tournament organizers, and should be banned meaning they announce it will be banned if not patched out or the like). I don't like the idea of Blizzard making the decision on this. After all, Blizzard didn't wrest the decision out of the community's hands on <insert one of dozens of glitches>. | ||
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kopuhg
2 Posts
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
Researching/abusing it early high risk at best. It's expensive, takes a while and puts huge big delay on stockpiling storm(s), Doing that and committing to using the first few templar's energy to hallucinate 1/2 price archons seems like it just puts a big window to just kill you, which basically means that it'd only be useful even later. I would guess that 90+% of games won't reach a point where this bug would ever even matter, because most of the time, you'd rather have a 2.33 storms over a half price archon (100 energy on first templar, archoned second). | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
On March 12 2019 07:30 Dazed. wrote: You can say its fine, but that doesnt mean it is; people can now make units for half the cost on ladder or tourny, that isnt acceptable, whether or not bigfan claims so. Yes zerg often can beat protoss before late game, no, protoss reaching archon tech is not rare or all together challenging, and so half cost archons arent acceptable just because zerg can bust a toss earlier than that. as can people use burrowed lurkers and all the other bug abuses, its fine sometimes i fell its always fine until its something P has then it needs to be fixed xD if u remove it why not remove dragoon movebugs ? no u wont do that so dont fix it either | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On March 12 2019 12:53 Timebon3s wrote: I dont see the problem here. First of all, this requires a lot of work. I still havent seen total recall ruining tvp like a lot of terran players feared, and this is even harder. Secondly, there are bugs in broodwar that are illegal. Like allied mines etc, so tournaments could just ban it if it turned out to be a problem. Allied mines aren't a bug. Allying your opponent before he walks over mines is an unintended use of a feature that you can use in game modes that allow allying your opponent. The one on one game mode doesn't allow it, and thus you can't do it on ladder. You can, however, do it if you host a custom game on the melee game mode. Half priced archons are interesting. Potential balance problems aside, they're good for the game because they take skill, and are fun and interesting. Let's see if they become a problem (I predict that they won't) before we remove them. Hold position lurkers are much more impactful than this, and they were left in the game, as they should have been. | ||
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Immaterial
Canada510 Posts
In my opinion, this bug is somewhat similar to the total recall thing in that it is situational and unlikely to have a significant impact on balance. Of course my perspective on balance is utterly meaningless, so we will have to see what top players think of it after a while. As a philosophical first principle though, when it comes to SC:BW we should always always always err on the side of leaving things well enough alone. Brood War is as close to perfect as a game can be, and little unintended intricacies like this tend to contribute to the beauty of the game. In the extremely unlikely case that this somehow ends up being game-breaking, then there can be a discussion about fixing it. Barring that, let it ride. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On March 12 2019 22:19 Drake wrote: not all bugs are fine. producing units for half cost for instance, is not fine. Any late game scenario where a protoss is mineral low and has some gas banked, now hes double the threat. That situation isnt really all together rare...a lot of pvz's are going to come down to a few archons battling z over a key location. Only now that number will be doubled for nothing more than the guy researched hallucination and put like...thirty seconds of effort into doubling his best late game unit? as can people use burrowed lurkers and all the other bug abuses, its fine sometimes i fell its always fine until its something P has then it needs to be fixed xD if u remove it why not remove dragoon movebugs ? no u wont do that so dont fix it either There are bugs that arguably add to the games skill set and increase the strategy-- mutalisk micro for instance-- and then there are glitches that give people free units. That is not acceptable. Unless this is something that is truly fucking hard to pull off, it will eventually be figured out, the skill set regularized, and even random noobs like me will use it with regularity in ladder games. People power boost workers, they do every little inane and difficult thing they possibly can to take an advantage. How could anyone think that this isnt something people are going to learn to do reliably? And once they do it reliably, pvz is fucked. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On March 13 2019 00:42 Dazed. wrote: not all bugs are fine. producing units for half cost for instance, is not fine. Any late game scenario where a protoss is mineral low and has some gas banked, now hes double the threat. That situation isnt really all together rare...a lot of pvz's are going to come down to a few archons battling z over a key location. Only now that number will be doubled for nothing more than the guy researched hallucination and put like...thirty seconds of effort into doubling his best late game unit? There are bugs that arguably add to the games skill set and increase the strategy-- mutalisk micro for instance-- and then there are glitches that give people free units. That is not acceptable. Unless this is something that is truly fucking hard to pull off, it will eventually be figured out, the skill set regularized, and even random noobs like me will use it with regularity in ladder games. People power boost workers, they do every little inane and difficult thing they possibly can to take an advantage. How could anyone think that this isnt something people are going to learn to do reliably? And once they do it reliably, pvz is fucked. Air unit stacking is not a bug. It is clever usage of intended unit behaviour. Units aren't supposed to maintain formation when they are too spread out, because then they would remain at opposite sides of the map when ordered to move somewhere. To fix that, Blizzard made units attempt to move to the exact same point, instead of staying in formation, when they are too far away from each other. You use this by selecting a unit from far away with your group. This archon technique is not as easy as you claim. Because the hallucinations must be older than the templars used, and hallucinations expire with time, this is difficult to do while also doing other things. It also uses up control groups. Most maps are statistically somewhat Zerg favoured in ZvP. A little boost to Protoss is not going to be a problem on those maps. If a small boost to Terran emerged, on the other hand, then that would perhaps be a problem. | ||
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