Credit to Kanzaki Ranko for showcasing this trick. Apparently you can make archons from one real high templar and one hallucinated high templar. Example:
Instructions on how to do the trick (shamelessly copying splax post): 1. Line up real hts next to hallucination 2. Mark all the real hts and set to a ctrl group 3. Mark all the hts (hallu + real) 4. Quickly set the same control group, select the group and press merge (i.e "ctrl + 1, 1, r")
The real HTs need to be newer than the halluc HTs in order for the archon to be real. i.e. Make halluc HTs, then merge them with real HTs that just came out of gateways.
FBH explaining it as well (thanks to nyannyan_artist for the clip):
just checked now and couldn't replicate on 1.16 using usual control methods (can't give order to morph archons with hallucinated templars selected whether with or without real templars included in selection)
Couldn't replicate this on the current Remastered patch either. There's no morph option when you group any number of templar and another unit, even a hallucination. I tried all different kinds of formations including a replica of the one in the video on the off chance that was how it worked.
If you watch the clip, he morphs 2 hallucinations together as well, which would be FREE archons. That doesn't work either.
My guess is that someone made a funky UMS version of CB and that the trick is a hoax.
On March 10 2019 09:53 JakePlissken wrote: Couldn't replicate this on the current Remastered patch either. There's no morph option when you group any number of templar and another unit, even a hallucination. I tried all different kinds of formations including a replica of the one in the video on the off chance that was how it worked.
If you watch the clip, he morphs 2 hallucinations together as well, which would be FREE archons. That doesn't work either.
My guess is that someone made a funky UMS version of CB and that the trick is a hoax.
Actually, morphing 2 hallu HT to archon makes hallu archon not real one though
Kanzaki Ranko has clarified a bit saying that it only works on non-LAN latency. Difficult on TR24, but much easier on TR8 extra high as shown in the clip.
On March 10 2019 10:11 SeaKing66 wrote: Kanzaki Ranko has clarified a bit saying that it only works on non-LAN latency. Difficult on TR24, but much easier on TR8 extra high as soon in the clip.
Step 1: select two real HT Step 2: Select real + hallucinated HT Step 3: In the frame before the UI updates, hit morph archon Step 4: select two real HT again
?
I could imagine something like that working under very laggy conditions
Amazing and interesting find! On a side note, has anyone seen an ice archon? You stasis the archon right before it finishes morphing and it keeps the stasis (block of ice) after it morphs.
On March 10 2019 10:11 SeaKing66 wrote: Kanzaki Ranko has clarified a bit saying that it only works on non-LAN latency. Difficult on TR24, but much easier on TR8 extra high as soon in the clip.
Step 1: select two real HT Step 2: Select real + hallucinated HT Step 3: In the frame before the UI updates, hit morph archon Step 4: select two real HT again
?
I could imagine something like that working under very laggy conditions
It's fairly easy to do: 1. Line up real hts next to hallucination 2. Mark all the real hts and set to a ctrl group 3. Mark all the hts (hallu + real) 4. Quickly set the same control group, select the group and press merge (i.e "ctrl + 1, 1, r") Unfortunately they all become hallucinations when I do it, meaning I lose the real hts
On March 10 2019 18:32 Splax wrote: It's fairly easy to do: 1. Line up real hts next to hallucination 2. Mark all the real hts and set to a ctrl group 3. Mark all the hts (hallu + real) 4. Quickly set the same control group, select the group and press merge (i.e "ctrl + 1, 1, r") Unfortunately they all become hallucinations when I do it, meaning I lose the real hts
Hallucinations can merge each other as well. And u can stop the real HTs from merging if they are far away or stuck etc. The most important point is they do not turn into real damage dealing archons...So no need for patch.
Whether they merge into real or hallucinated Archons might depend on which HT's hallucinated flag they inherit, which probably depends on unit indices. Have you tried it in a UMS map with known unit indices or tested creating the HTs first vs. creating the hallus first?
On March 10 2019 19:37 Freakling wrote: Whether they merge into real or hallucinated Archons might depend on which HT's hallucinated flag they inherit, which probably depends on unit indices. Have you tried it in a UMS map with known unit indices or tested creating the HTs first vs. creating the hallus first?
You are of course absolutely right, if I make the ht after the hallucination, it becomes a real archon.
On March 10 2019 18:32 Splax wrote: It's fairly easy to do: 1. Line up real hts next to hallucination 2. Mark all the real hts and set to a ctrl group 3. Mark all the hts (hallu + real) 4. Quickly set the same control group, select the group and press merge (i.e "ctrl + 1, 1, r") Unfortunately they all become hallucinations when I do it, meaning I lose the real hts
This guide works. To make real archons just morph them by FRESH-MADE templars. So you need to make hallucinations before this point.
Updated the OP to include the instructions in one spot.
I think the more interesting question is whether or not this trick should be legal in online tournaments. The consensus among Koreans is that this trick is almost impossible to do in offline conditions, but much more feasible online with lag.
it reminds me of the glitch that allowed you to make Z units translucent (like stealthed but no need detection) AND to stack. it used a similar control group procedure with burrow ability. it was patched out hopefully as it was quite easy to cheat using it
I can do it online on low latency turn rate 24, but I can't do it in single player. If it can be done in lan, though, I think it should be legal. I just hosted a lan game and am going to attempt it there.
Update: I just did it on LAN. Maybe it's possible to do in single player too, but I just got better at it after practicing? I'll keep doing it until I can do it consistently on LAN, then I'll try it in single player.
Second update: Since this trick requires input latency of a sort, and there is some of it in LAN, but not in single player, this is possible to do in all multiplayer forms of StarCraft. It's just not possible in single player. Therefore, I say, let people do it and leave it in the game.
There's no reason to ban it from LAN tournament play, because it works over a LAN just as well as over the internet. StarCraft is simply coded in such a way that there will always be a little bit of input delay in multiplayer, whether over the internet or over a LAN. This is a part of multiplayer StarCraft. If it turns out to be a balance problem (it won't, it makes the game better and more interesting), then it can be patched out.
Do *not* fuck this up, Blizzard. This is a historic decision.
This is possible on all forms of multiplayer StarCraft: 8 turn rate extra high battle net, 24 turn rate low battle net, and LAN. It is not, I believe, possible in single player (I have not managed to do it there). It is easier the laggier it is, but even over LAN, it is possible to do pretty consistently.
I guess you could also use this to exceed max supply right? Normally when you make an archon, you sacrifice two 2-supply HTs and get 1 4-supply archon, so it comes out even. But here, you're only sacrificing 2 supply to get the archon.
If the HTs have to be made last that will limit it, but you can still exceed the supply cap a little.
I'd love to see how this plays out, but it's hard to see it not being banned. I think much smaller things have been banned than this. (observers over turrets)
On March 11 2019 03:46 asel wrote: Wow, this is crazy. Should get fixed imo. Its basically a balance change and I'm not a fan of this in broodwar.
The total recall was also a "balance change". Every new discovery was a "balance change". Leave it in until it proves itself as a problem. I predict that it won't be a problem. Protoss is the weakest race anyway, just not by much. And this doesn't make Protoss that much stronger. It's probably fine. At least give it a chance.
I can do it on LAN and on battle net, so if it is decided that this should not be in the game, it should be patched out, not banned in the rules, because as it is, it's simply an inescapable part of multiplayer StarCraft.
This is possible on all forms of multiplayer StarCraft: 8 turn rate extra high battle net, 24 turn rate low battle net, and LAN. It is not, I believe, possible in single player (I have not managed to do it there). It is easier the laggier it is, but even over LAN, it is possible to do pretty consistently.
Many of the BroodWar speedruns require similar tricks (for Crackmutas for examplke), so there's probably even a way to make it work in SP. There's probably always a frame or so delay in interface updates. Have you tried it at slowest game speed?
As expected it is easy to reproduce in single player (I used 1.16, but RM should make no difference) on slow game speeds. So in principle it would work at fastest without latency as well, simply comes down to hitting those keys fast enough.
This is possible on all forms of multiplayer StarCraft: 8 turn rate extra high battle net, 24 turn rate low battle net, and LAN. It is not, I believe, possible in single player (I have not managed to do it there). It is easier the laggier it is, but even over LAN, it is possible to do pretty consistently.
Many of the BroodWar speedruns require similar tricks (for Crackmutas for examplke), so there's probably even a way to make it work in SP. There's probably always a frame or so delay in interface updates. Have you tried it at slowest game speed?
When I say that it's not possible in single player, I mean that it's not humanly possible, at least not with the keyboards of today (on the fastest game speed).
Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong? I'm creating archons with 1 hallu and 1 real, but the result is the archon is a hallucination and not a real one.
I'm selecting 2 ht, grouping them to ctrl 1 Then selecting real + hallu ht, and pressing shift 1, 1, r
The real + hallu ht merge but the result is a hallu archon
if the resultant archon is a hallucination, your error is that the hallucinations were made AFTER the templar used to merge. you need the creation timestamp to be newer for the real temp than the fake one.
On March 11 2019 06:57 TwiggyWan wrote: It's like every bullshit glitch is for the protoss race. Coincidence? I think not
You're right, thank god the game was revolutionized in our favor 13 years ago when we realized we could select 11 Scouts with 1 Probe trapped between Pylons and stack them to harass enemy worker lines. Oh wait...
It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon gimmick really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc (lot of different possibilities)
On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote: It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc.
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
On March 11 2019 06:57 TwiggyWan wrote: It's like every bullshit glitch is for the protoss race. Coincidence? I think not
You're right, thank god the game was revolutionized in our favor 13 years ago when we realized we could select 11 Scouts with 1 Probe trapped between Pylons and stack them to harass enemy worker lines. Oh wait...
It's a cool trick and it could see it beeing somewhat helpful in some situations, but by no means this is a game breaker discovery. It's not like now the P v Z winratio will dramatically turn in P favor because of this: 1. only viable on late game, 2. needs for the user to make quite a few tasks before it. Just remember a few months ago we were doubting if Totall Recall was goin to change meta in P v T and No, it didn't, not in the least, and I think that was a bigger deal.
"need a patch", in order to what? ASL not becoming Protoss broken or preventing the Ladder of beeing taken over by Protoss going mass Archons? lol, come on, don't be silly...
I can imagine a timeline where a patch could not come and we all still "be fine" regardless.
On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote: It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc.
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
also koreans told me that you can do this with dark templars as well
Am confused. Sounds like this is known already in Korea? Or were there KR netizens reading TL and informing him that we just now noticed this and this was truly "discovered" in the foreign community.
also koreans told me that you can do this with dark templars as well
Am confused. Sounds like this is known already in Korea? Or were there KR netizens reading TL and informing him that we just now noticed this and this was truly "discovered" in the foreign community.
It was discovered in the Korean community 12 hours prior to Kanzaki doing it on stream last night.
This actually is broken in the right scenario though. Granted that scenario rarely comes up, but it does happen ie: almost every game on God's Garden?
(For those unfamiliar: games on God's Garden tended to be mutual destruction of both bases and both sides had to make econ-friendly units like MC with dark archon and broodlings. Having 1/2 price archons would totally dominate that scenario)
The current argument for keeping this would be like keeping the stacked hydra bug, except since stacked hydras are useful in early game, it's a lot easier to see how broken it would be.
On March 11 2019 11:11 LocoBolon wrote: It's a cool trick and it could see it beeing somewhat helpful in some situations, but by no means this is a game breaker discovery. It's not like now the P v Z winratio will dramatically turn in P favor because of this: 1. only viable on late game, 2. needs for the user to make quite a few tasks before it. Just remember a few months ago we were doubting if Totall Recall was goin to change meta in P v T and No, it didn't, not in the least, and I think that was a bigger deal.
On March 11 2019 11:11 LocoBolon wrote: It's a cool trick and it could see it beeing somewhat helpful in some situations, but by no means this is a game breaker discovery. It's not like now the P v Z winratio will dramatically turn in P favor because of this: 1. only viable on late game, 2. needs for the user to make quite a few tasks before it. Just remember a few months ago we were doubting if Totall Recall was goin to change meta in P v T and No, it didn't, not in the least, and I think that was a bigger deal.
On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote: It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc.
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote: It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc.
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
In the spirit of discussing changes, sprite limits were fixed in SC:R right? Have we seen any strategies that incorporated Valks more?
On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote: It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc.
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
In the spirit of discussing changes, sprite limits were fixed in SC:R right? Have we seen any strategies that incorporated Valks more?
On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote: It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc.
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
In the spirit of discussing changes, sprite limits were fixed in SC:R right? Have we seen any strategies that incorporated Valks more?
They didn't fix that in the end purely to make sure balance wasn't changed.
On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote: It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc.
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
Why? Seems like a pretty arbitrary line. Dont fix any bugs! Huh?
On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote: It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc.
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
Why? Seems like a pretty arbitrary line. Dont fix any bugs! Huh?
Balance means like fixing the reaver dud scarab bug. There is plenty for Blizzard to fix regarding the online client the no one is opposed to them fixing. Additionally, if this particular bug was gaming breaking we could just ban it from tournament play. It's not like the flying drone bug will be fixed by blizzard.
How are dudding Scarabs are even consideed a bug, it's a pretty easy to understand phenomenon. Good target choices make all the difference. Reaver jams on the other hand…
On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote: It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc.
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
Why? Seems like a pretty arbitrary line. Dont fix any bugs! Huh?
Balance means like fixing the reaver dud scarab bug. There is plenty for Blizzard to fix regarding the online client the no one is opposed to them fixing. Additionally, if this particular bug was gaming breaking we could just ban it from tournament play. It's not like the flying drone bug will be fixed by blizzard.
Bigfan said: I'm against fixing all bugs, including this. I asked why? Fixing scarab ai may or may not effect balance, but what does that have to do with what bigfan said, or what i asked? Nothing.
Why not fix this bug, why merely ban it in tourny play? It can still be used in ladder. Why not fix it? Fixing scarab ai is one thing, fixing this is another. Fixing any one discrete issue is just that, that discrete issue, we can handle it case by case. Bigfan uttered a blanket and indefensible statement.
i thought flying drone was fixed? (also flying DT and high templar and other bugs like sliding CC staking Z units etc). It would also be nice to fix reaver "jam" yeah and goon "jam".. keep in mind any bugs that aren't fixed can easily be used to cheat in any custom games too, 3vs3 and etc. For example stacking Z units crushed these game modes anytime someone used it lul.
On March 12 2019 02:20 JAG.war wrote: "In Brood War, bugs are part of the gameplay."
We can't say this anymore until it's patched!
just depends what is considered cheating really, like bypassing ramp with a bugged worker is not usually allowed or some other things (so these could be fixed).. at some point you could slide a CC to stick close to minerals, or also use some terran building addon construction bug to generate resources (i think this one required a hack though) i would consider generating a full archon from a HT and a halucinated HT using control bug is a cheat personally i wouldn't want my opponent to do this against me, and don't want to use it (debatable i guess^^). So what a certain community considers as cheating, does blizzard also consider it as cheating, then they should probably fix it. maybe its interesting somehow for pvz and pvp and even pvt though who knows huhu^^ but its weird cause usage depends on latency and that control switch frame.. messy, don't think I want to be doing that lul. You know what if you think this should be in the game why not facilitate it by making it possible to order HT and halu HT to morph together and not, obviously that was not intended though.
also koreans told me that you can do this with dark templars as well
Am confused. Sounds like this is known already in Korea? Or were there KR netizens reading TL and informing him that we just now noticed this and this was truly "discovered" in the foreign community.
yea, it was already known in korea from very small amount of bug abusers i believe, but now its publicized to wide public by FBH
On March 10 2019 18:22 ProllTarodies wrote: It is just a visual thing as far as I have tested so far they do NOT produce real archons. No matter if u morph 1 real 1 hallu or 2 hallus..
Also EndingLife mentioned ice archons... So a perfect place to force my video on those and others on you AGAIN:
It probably would never happen. But if that visual glitch happened in an ASL/KSL like tourney I'd laugh my ass off. Tastosis would have a ball with that.
On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote: It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc.
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
Why? Seems like a pretty arbitrary line. Dont fix any bugs! Huh?
The game is fine as is, we don't need any fix. There is a ton of stuff like BD mentioned regarding the client and such that can be fixed without playing with the game's code and Blizzard need to keep their hands off of that. Lucky for us, they seem to understand this and likely woudl not touch it.
It seems really unlikely that this would impact PvT, right? Even half-price archons are going to trade poorly against vultures.
Archons are useful against Zerg, but it seems like zerg still have numerous ways of ending the game before this even comes in to play. Also, hydras are pretty good against archons as well - maybe not half priced archons, but how much would this change the matchup? There's a large opportunity cost here. Archons are already "half priced" in a way because you generally are morphing them from templar that have used storm.
You are actually still consuming a lot of templar to do this - Between having to cast hallucination on an old templar with 100 mana, and having to merge a hallucination with a fresh templar (so doesn't have any opportunity to cast storm).
I need this to rock until it's proven to be a problem....
On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote: It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc.
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
Why? Seems like a pretty arbitrary line. Dont fix any bugs! Huh?
The game is fine as is, we don't need any fix. There is a ton of stuff like BD mentioned regarding the client and such that can be fixed without playing with the game's code and Blizzard need to keep their hands off of that. Lucky for us, they seem to understand this and likely woudl not touch it.
You can say its fine, but that doesnt mean it is; people can now make units for half the cost on ladder or tourny, that isnt acceptable, whether or not bigfan claims so.
Archons are useful against Zerg, but it seems like zerg still have numerous ways of ending the game before this even comes in to play
Yes zerg often can beat protoss before late game, no, protoss reaching archon tech is not rare or all together challenging, and so half cost archons arent acceptable just because zerg can bust a toss earlier than that.
It's totally acceptable. This requires quite the micro, planning and investment to pull off. Can't wait to see this in an offline pro game! So cool that Broodwar keeps on giving after all these years.
I heard "half cost archons aren't acceptable". I tried to think of the problems with this glitch and why it might be acceptable.
I'd now like to hear reasoning as to why this isn't acceptable.
And to be clear, this glitch does not equate with archons being half-cost. It is much, much different than that. If the glitch was such that you could just take one templar, and morph it into an archon, with no strings attached... Ok, sure.
I'm not convinced that this would affect winrates significantly enough to be a problem. I think someone needs to show that this is a problem before it is patched or before it is banned.
On March 12 2019 09:30 errol1001 wrote: I heard "half cost archons aren't acceptable". I tried to think of the problems with this glitch and why it might be acceptable.
I'd now like to hear reasoning as to why this isn't acceptable.
And to be clear, this glitch does not equate with archons being half-cost. It is much, much different than that. If the glitch was such that you could just take one templar, and morph it into an archon, with no strings attached... Ok, sure.
I'm not convinced that this would affect winrates significantly enough to be a problem. I think someone needs to show that this is a problem before it is patched or before it is banned.
I am not certain that it is an issue that needs patching (I'd like to see more games first and rely on progamer opinions), but if I were to pick the most convincing reason as to why it should be:
Late game PvZ when the map is nearly depleted. This is the time when Protoss starts going heavy Archon/Templar compositions. Templar are 50 minerals each and gas is basically infinite, meaning if you are camping behind defenses with Corsair/DA/HT/Reaver, you can presumably have twice the Archon count you would for the same amount of minerals. This is a situation in which you WOULD actually get the half price Archons, because you already have a standard force of HT and you can just use a couple to make consistent hallucinations for fresh Templar.
Late game PvZ's of this nature are extremely rare, but just the knowledge that Protoss can do this in the late game adds to their arsenal and can impact how both Protoss and Zerg choose to approach the latter stages of the game. If Protoss knows that they can just turtle bank up 2000 minerals and use that to make 40 Archons instead of 20, that is a significant difference IMO. Would Protoss be more motivated to play passive in the late game and focus on holding onto bases/depleted geysers? Would Zerg opt for perhaps riskier aggression in order to prevent it from happening? Only time will tell, but I think that this is the biggest concern facing this issue.
I dont see the problem here. First of all, this requires a lot of work. I still havent seen total recall ruining tvp like a lot of terran players feared, and this is even harder.
Secondly, there are bugs in broodwar that are illegal. Like allied mines etc, so tournaments could just ban it if it turned out to be a problem.
On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote: It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc.
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
Why? Seems like a pretty arbitrary line. Dont fix any bugs! Huh?
The game is fine as is, we don't need any fix. There is a ton of stuff like BD mentioned regarding the client and such that can be fixed without playing with the game's code and Blizzard need to keep their hands off of that. Lucky for us, they seem to understand this and likely woudl not touch it.
What makes you the expert?
It's always easier to be a critic, but it's even easier to be a critic of a critic.
I don't think it's serious issue at pro level since it doesn't really work on LAN but it does on high latency/ If it turns out to be op, I hope it gets fixed. But I remember the mega recall and even though there were so many arguments for why it was op, it didn't turn out to break the game or even be commonly used.
On March 12 2019 11:54 Jealous wrote: I am not certain that it is an issue that needs patching (I'd like to see more games first and rely on progamer opinions), but if I were to pick the most convincing reason as to why it should be: <truncated>
Good points. I think if it ends up causing a lot of games to degenerate into this kind of scenario, it isn't worth keeping. I also think the decision on this should be made based on progamer input, more games, etc.
How about this:
I'm ok with Blizzard patching this out only after the community has decided that it should be banned. THEN it could be patched out. (Community mostly meaning tournament organizers, and should be banned meaning they announce it will be banned if not patched out or the like).
I don't like the idea of Blizzard making the decision on this. After all, Blizzard didn't wrest the decision out of the community's hands on <insert one of dozens of glitches>.
Researching/abusing it early high risk at best. It's expensive, takes a while and puts huge big delay on stockpiling storm(s), Doing that and committing to using the first few templar's energy to hallucinate 1/2 price archons seems like it just puts a big window to just kill you, which basically means that it'd only be useful even later.
I would guess that 90+% of games won't reach a point where this bug would ever even matter, because most of the time, you'd rather have a 2.33 storms over a half price archon (100 energy on first templar, archoned second).
On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote: It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc.
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
Why? Seems like a pretty arbitrary line. Dont fix any bugs! Huh?
The game is fine as is, we don't need any fix. There is a ton of stuff like BD mentioned regarding the client and such that can be fixed without playing with the game's code and Blizzard need to keep their hands off of that. Lucky for us, they seem to understand this and likely woudl not touch it.
You can say its fine, but that doesnt mean it is; people can now make units for half the cost on ladder or tourny, that isnt acceptable, whether or not bigfan claims so.
Archons are useful against Zerg, but it seems like zerg still have numerous ways of ending the game before this even comes in to play
Yes zerg often can beat protoss before late game, no, protoss reaching archon tech is not rare or all together challenging, and so half cost archons arent acceptable just because zerg can bust a toss earlier than that.
as can people use burrowed lurkers and all the other bug abuses, its fine
sometimes i fell its always fine until its something P has then it needs to be fixed xD if u remove it why not remove dragoon movebugs ? no u wont do that so dont fix it either
On March 12 2019 12:53 Timebon3s wrote: I dont see the problem here. First of all, this requires a lot of work. I still havent seen total recall ruining tvp like a lot of terran players feared, and this is even harder.
Secondly, there are bugs in broodwar that are illegal. Like allied mines etc, so tournaments could just ban it if it turned out to be a problem.
Allied mines aren't a bug. Allying your opponent before he walks over mines is an unintended use of a feature that you can use in game modes that allow allying your opponent. The one on one game mode doesn't allow it, and thus you can't do it on ladder. You can, however, do it if you host a custom game on the melee game mode.
Half priced archons are interesting. Potential balance problems aside, they're good for the game because they take skill, and are fun and interesting. Let's see if they become a problem (I predict that they won't) before we remove them. Hold position lurkers are much more impactful than this, and they were left in the game, as they should have been.
hahaha damn, this is crazy. It’s pretty unbelievable that new things like this continue to be discovered so long after the game’s release.
In my opinion, this bug is somewhat similar to the total recall thing in that it is situational and unlikely to have a significant impact on balance. Of course my perspective on balance is utterly meaningless, so we will have to see what top players think of it after a while.
As a philosophical first principle though, when it comes to SC:BW we should always always always err on the side of leaving things well enough alone. Brood War is as close to perfect as a game can be, and little unintended intricacies like this tend to contribute to the beauty of the game.
In the extremely unlikely case that this somehow ends up being game-breaking, then there can be a discussion about fixing it. Barring that, let it ride.
On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote: It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc.
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
Why? Seems like a pretty arbitrary line. Dont fix any bugs! Huh?
The game is fine as is, we don't need any fix. There is a ton of stuff like BD mentioned regarding the client and such that can be fixed without playing with the game's code and Blizzard need to keep their hands off of that. Lucky for us, they seem to understand this and likely woudl not touch it.
You can say its fine, but that doesnt mean it is; people can now make units for half the cost on ladder or tourny, that isnt acceptable, whether or not bigfan claims so.
Archons are useful against Zerg, but it seems like zerg still have numerous ways of ending the game before this even comes in to play
Yes zerg often can beat protoss before late game, no, protoss reaching archon tech is not rare or all together challenging, and so half cost archons arent acceptable just because zerg can bust a toss earlier than that.
as can people use burrowed lurkers and all the other bug abuses, its fine
sometimes i fell its always fine until its something P has then it needs to be fixed xD if u remove it why not remove dragoon movebugs ? no u wont do that so dont fix it either
not all bugs are fine. producing units for half cost for instance, is not fine. Any late game scenario where a protoss is mineral low and has some gas banked, now hes double the threat. That situation isnt really all together rare...a lot of pvz's are going to come down to a few archons battling z over a key location. Only now that number will be doubled for nothing more than the guy researched hallucination and put like...thirty seconds of effort into doubling his best late game unit?
There are bugs that arguably add to the games skill set and increase the strategy-- mutalisk micro for instance-- and then there are glitches that give people free units. That is not acceptable. Unless this is something that is truly fucking hard to pull off, it will eventually be figured out, the skill set regularized, and even random noobs like me will use it with regularity in ladder games. People power boost workers, they do every little inane and difficult thing they possibly can to take an advantage. How could anyone think that this isnt something people are going to learn to do reliably? And once they do it reliably, pvz is fucked.
On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote: It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc.
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
Why? Seems like a pretty arbitrary line. Dont fix any bugs! Huh?
The game is fine as is, we don't need any fix. There is a ton of stuff like BD mentioned regarding the client and such that can be fixed without playing with the game's code and Blizzard need to keep their hands off of that. Lucky for us, they seem to understand this and likely woudl not touch it.
You can say its fine, but that doesnt mean it is; people can now make units for half the cost on ladder or tourny, that isnt acceptable, whether or not bigfan claims so.
Archons are useful against Zerg, but it seems like zerg still have numerous ways of ending the game before this even comes in to play
Yes zerg often can beat protoss before late game, no, protoss reaching archon tech is not rare or all together challenging, and so half cost archons arent acceptable just because zerg can bust a toss earlier than that.
as can people use burrowed lurkers and all the other bug abuses, its fine
sometimes i fell its always fine until its something P has then it needs to be fixed xD if u remove it why not remove dragoon movebugs ? no u wont do that so dont fix it either
not all bugs are fine. producing units for half cost for instance, is not fine. Any late game scenario where a protoss is mineral low and has some gas banked, now hes double the threat. That situation isnt really all together rare...a lot of pvz's are going to come down to a few archons battling z over a key location. Only now that number will be doubled for nothing more than the guy researched hallucination and put like...thirty seconds of effort into doubling his best late game unit?
There are bugs that arguably add to the games skill set and increase the strategy-- mutalisk micro for instance-- and then there are glitches that give people free units. That is not acceptable. Unless this is something that is truly fucking hard to pull off, it will eventually be figured out, the skill set regularized, and even random noobs like me will use it with regularity in ladder games. People power boost workers, they do every little inane and difficult thing they possibly can to take an advantage. How could anyone think that this isnt something people are going to learn to do reliably? And once they do it reliably, pvz is fucked.
Air unit stacking is not a bug. It is clever usage of intended unit behaviour. Units aren't supposed to maintain formation when they are too spread out, because then they would remain at opposite sides of the map when ordered to move somewhere. To fix that, Blizzard made units attempt to move to the exact same point, instead of staying in formation, when they are too far away from each other. You use this by selecting a unit from far away with your group.
This archon technique is not as easy as you claim. Because the hallucinations must be older than the templars used, and hallucinations expire with time, this is difficult to do while also doing other things. It also uses up control groups.
Most maps are statistically somewhat Zerg favoured in ZvP. A little boost to Protoss is not going to be a problem on those maps. If a small boost to Terran emerged, on the other hand, then that would perhaps be a problem.
On March 11 2019 08:02 ProtossGG wrote: It's cool and all, and even cooler that things like this are discovered in 2019.
But, even so, this will be fixed by Blizzard, as this does throw some type of unbalance into the game. For instance, the "mass recall" from last year, that's not really any sort of unbalance, but I could see this archon thing really changing the course of late game PvZ, or even being incorporated into some sort of crazy 8 gate PvP timing attack, etc.
Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
Why? Seems like a pretty arbitrary line. Dont fix any bugs! Huh?
The game is fine as is, we don't need any fix. There is a ton of stuff like BD mentioned regarding the client and such that can be fixed without playing with the game's code and Blizzard need to keep their hands off of that. Lucky for us, they seem to understand this and likely woudl not touch it.
You can say its fine, but that doesnt mean it is; people can now make units for half the cost on ladder or tourny, that isnt acceptable, whether or not bigfan claims so.
Archons are useful against Zerg, but it seems like zerg still have numerous ways of ending the game before this even comes in to play
Yes zerg often can beat protoss before late game, no, protoss reaching archon tech is not rare or all together challenging, and so half cost archons arent acceptable just because zerg can bust a toss earlier than that.
as can people use burrowed lurkers and all the other bug abuses, its fine
sometimes i fell its always fine until its something P has then it needs to be fixed xD if u remove it why not remove dragoon movebugs ? no u wont do that so dont fix it either
not all bugs are fine. producing units for half cost for instance, is not fine. Any late game scenario where a protoss is mineral low and has some gas banked, now hes double the threat. That situation isnt really all together rare...a lot of pvz's are going to come down to a few archons battling z over a key location. Only now that number will be doubled for nothing more than the guy researched hallucination and put like...thirty seconds of effort into doubling his best late game unit?
There are bugs that arguably add to the games skill set and increase the strategy-- mutalisk micro for instance-- and then there are glitches that give people free units. That is not acceptable. Unless this is something that is truly fucking hard to pull off, it will eventually be figured out, the skill set regularized, and even random noobs like me will use it with regularity in ladder games. People power boost workers, they do every little inane and difficult thing they possibly can to take an advantage. How could anyone think that this isnt something people are going to learn to do reliably? And once they do it reliably, pvz is fucked.
Air unit stacking is not a bug. It is clever usage of intended unit behaviour. Units aren't supposed to maintain formation when they are too spread out, because then they would remain at opposite sides of the map when ordered to move somewhere. To fix that, Blizzard made units attempt to move to the exact same point, instead of staying in formation, when they are too far away from each other. You use this by selecting a unit from far away with your group.
This archon technique is not as easy as you claim. Because the hallucinations must be older than the templars used, and hallucinations expire with time, this is difficult to do while also doing other things. It also uses up control groups.
Most maps are statistically somewhat Zerg favoured in ZvP. A little boost to Protoss is not going to be a problem on those maps. If a small boost to Terran emerged, on the other hand, then that would perhaps be a problem.
You can refuse to call it a glitch if you want, for whatever semantical value you think that gives you. But, its not clever usage of intended unit behaviour, its glitching a poorly thought out unit movement process, because no one thought of unit stacking. No one thought of it until almost seven years after the game was out. That isnt clever use, its figuring out how to glitch a poorly designed element of the game. And it happened to add a lot to the game, in terms of micro, builds, hell its the only thing that even makes zvt viable. Take out muta stacking and the zvt win rate would bottom out real fucking fast, so we keep it. Theres no fair comparison between muta stacking and spawning units for half cost-- incredibly powerful, matchup defining units, at that.
This archon technique is not as easy as you claim. Because the hallucinations must be older than the templars used, and hallucinations expire with time, this is difficult to do while also doing other things. It also uses up control groups.
Everything in bw is difficult, and all of it is learnable to a second nature degree. Its not exactly impossible to research hallucination, then time out your rotation of high templars in a game. It might take some doing, yes, but people will sit there and reload the same parts of the game till they get the timing and movement down. This is an imminently learnable and reproducible glitch.
On March 11 2019 08:05 BisuDagger wrote: [quote] Is it really broken? I hope it isn't fixed for at least a single ASL. Protoss players have to first research hallucination and wait for a templar to have the energy. Plus it requires a fresh ht and successful merge before the hallucination expires. We should wait to see if this strategy is relevant first and then broken second.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
Why? Seems like a pretty arbitrary line. Dont fix any bugs! Huh?
The game is fine as is, we don't need any fix. There is a ton of stuff like BD mentioned regarding the client and such that can be fixed without playing with the game's code and Blizzard need to keep their hands off of that. Lucky for us, they seem to understand this and likely woudl not touch it.
You can say its fine, but that doesnt mean it is; people can now make units for half the cost on ladder or tourny, that isnt acceptable, whether or not bigfan claims so.
Archons are useful against Zerg, but it seems like zerg still have numerous ways of ending the game before this even comes in to play
Yes zerg often can beat protoss before late game, no, protoss reaching archon tech is not rare or all together challenging, and so half cost archons arent acceptable just because zerg can bust a toss earlier than that.
as can people use burrowed lurkers and all the other bug abuses, its fine
sometimes i fell its always fine until its something P has then it needs to be fixed xD if u remove it why not remove dragoon movebugs ? no u wont do that so dont fix it either
not all bugs are fine. producing units for half cost for instance, is not fine. Any late game scenario where a protoss is mineral low and has some gas banked, now hes double the threat. That situation isnt really all together rare...a lot of pvz's are going to come down to a few archons battling z over a key location. Only now that number will be doubled for nothing more than the guy researched hallucination and put like...thirty seconds of effort into doubling his best late game unit?
There are bugs that arguably add to the games skill set and increase the strategy-- mutalisk micro for instance-- and then there are glitches that give people free units. That is not acceptable. Unless this is something that is truly fucking hard to pull off, it will eventually be figured out, the skill set regularized, and even random noobs like me will use it with regularity in ladder games. People power boost workers, they do every little inane and difficult thing they possibly can to take an advantage. How could anyone think that this isnt something people are going to learn to do reliably? And once they do it reliably, pvz is fucked.
Air unit stacking is not a bug. It is clever usage of intended unit behaviour. Units aren't supposed to maintain formation when they are too spread out, because then they would remain at opposite sides of the map when ordered to move somewhere. To fix that, Blizzard made units attempt to move to the exact same point, instead of staying in formation, when they are too far away from each other. You use this by selecting a unit from far away with your group.
This archon technique is not as easy as you claim. Because the hallucinations must be older than the templars used, and hallucinations expire with time, this is difficult to do while also doing other things. It also uses up control groups.
Most maps are statistically somewhat Zerg favoured in ZvP. A little boost to Protoss is not going to be a problem on those maps. If a small boost to Terran emerged, on the other hand, then that would perhaps be a problem.
Its not clever usage of intended unit behaviour, its glitching a poorly thought out unit movement process, because no one thought of unit stacking. No one thought of it until almost seven years after the game was out. That isnt clever use, its figuring out how to glitch a poorly designed element of the game. And it happened to add a lot to the game, in terms of micro, builds, hell its the only thing that even makes zvt viable. Take out muta stacking and the zvt win rate would bottom out real fucking fast, so we keep it. Theres no fair comparison between muta stacking and spawning units for half cost-- incredibly powerful, matchup defining units, at that.
This archon technique is not as easy as you claim. Because the hallucinations must be older than the templars used, and hallucinations expire with time, this is difficult to do while also doing other things. It also uses up control groups.
Everything in bw is difficult, and all of it is learnable to a second nature degree. Its not exactly difficult to research hallucination, then time out your rotation of high templars in a game. It might take some doing, yes, but people will sit there and reload the same parts of the game till they get the timing and movement down. This is an imminently learnable and reproducible glitch.
They literally hard coded units to move to the same exact point if they are far away from each other, and to stay in formation if they are close to each other. They wanted a formation feature, but they had to put an area limit on it. The solution was to make spread out units move to the exact same point. It was intended. You can make use of this by keeping a unit far away in your group. Intended behaviour, unforeseen consequence of that behaviour. It's not a compile error. It's not even a logical error. It's not a bug in any sense of the word.
In the same way, they made workers float through each other when mining in order to prevent them from getting stuck in the mineral line. This allows people to float through enemy units to escape chasing zerglings. Intended behaviour, unforeseen consequence of that behaviour.
Yes, people are going to learn this despite it being hard. But difficulty changes how much people can do it. Double control group muta micro, for example, has been used, but the difficulty of the technique diminished its effect. If double control muta micro was as easy as single control group muta micro, then, the effect would be massive. One shotting turrets, sniping depots, etc.
Because this new technique is, 1: hard and 2: fun
we should give it a chance before we snuff it out.
BW is lucky enough to be so old that there are "bugs" that are very hard, if not impossible to "fix". If you look at modern games, there is pretty much no real depth. There is no technique like muta micro that people find over years and learn to perfect. You get what the devs tell you and even if someone finds something cool (like the void ray charge bug in early WOL) it gets fixed immediatly. Because devs see it as mistakes in their code, not a chance for the game to expand. I really love the first-second generation of eSports games from a time when patching was (almost) impossible on consoles and fairly limited on PC. All of those games have some hidden mechanics that come from bugs, but end up really enhancing the game and widening the skill gap. I think this new archon bug speaks to the depth of BW and I for one am very happy to see new things being discovered over time. BW evolves and developes by itself, with no intervention from the devs. Almost every other current eSport relies on dev patches for any changes to happen. We haven't seen it used once in an offline event, so even if anyone even wants to consider removing this, I'd atleast advice to wait until we see it in use and can judge it's impact on the meta. I for one am glad to see that protoss players get a new skill to master!
is it really hard to patch it so that when a HT morphes with a halu HT, instead of just taking the index of the later one to decide whether the resulting archon is going to be real or halu, it will check both index and if one is halu then the archon is halu or the morph impossible???? did the muta trick actually improve BW or worsen it? zvt would be too hard on modern maps without it, so i hear, but maybe the maps would be different, and maybe this match up would not so repeatedly open itself with 3hatch muta stuff. Quite likely 1base pvz would be playable, at the very least more playable, because you wouldn't need the corsairs to deal with muta like you pretty much do now. Whatever^^ (if it comes up that 1base opening in pvz becomes more viable because of this "half free archon" bug, i would probably just start doing it but what happens when you play lan and such? its just messy isn't it. Also wouldn't want a situation where you'd actually nearly have to use this every game if you do 1base opening for example. I guess we will see if tourney organisers decide that this is a forbidden bug or not [you lose the game if you used it]. And then, can you report a ladder opponent to get win if he did like on Iccup. I guess let's see what comes up of it for a while. . . Also : can it be fixed without messing 1.16 replays working on SC:R. I guess yes because it would not actually impact any replays that don't use the bug, depending how it is fixed. But then new 1.16 replays using the bug are going to bug. If not, can SC:R load a alternate code to play old version replays, suggested it before imo would be ideal for a developped RTS like Starcraft to be able to patch it without losing older replays)
150/150 cost for halu research, and you can already get a full free archon out of producing 2 more HTs after the 1st of your first two HTs has accumulated 100 energy (quite soon since they start at 50). That's already 100/300 worth of generation using bug, so you're at -50/+150, not to mention you didn't need to have extra gate production time to produce 2 extra HT for making an extra archon. Do it one more time using 2nd HT energy and you got another free archon and you're at +50/+450. Very soon you'd be able to do it with more templars, and start accumulating energy in your base and get that counter up to +450/+1950 and counting. Fair? Usable, but depends on lat? How annoying to do? just my thoughts as I have not actually tried to do it so far other than offline which doesn't work apparently. ps: ok it works on slowest speed on 1.16, pretty annoying to do CTRL1-1-R as fast as possible it looks like^^
This trick can be performed with multiple hallucinated templars at once. You just select multiple hallucinations prior to the shift+1, 1 trick. The key is to arrange the hts with the fakes so every other templar is a hallucinated one. If multiple half priced archons can be made consistently by pros then this definitely becomes more overpowered.
To add to the fun, you can also stasis glitch them too so as to give them an extra powerful feel! :D
On March 14 2019 03:29 deathgod6 wrote: I was going to ask if you can make half priced Dark Archons. I guess BisuDagger answered my question haha.
I tried hallucinating so many things. One attempt was to hallucinate a worker, select a real worker and the halucinations, then use the now available gather command to mine minerals. Unfortunately it did not work for minerals or gas lol. Also, you cannot hallucinate an interceptor.
There are players who already created an optimized timing push build (5 zealots + 2 archons vs zerg) with this bug.
Is that real or even practical?
I doubt it being effective that early :p
I could see it together with 12 ~ zelots and 4 archons or something (if it works well, i havn't tried it myself). I don't think it'll be hard to defend with a good sim city and sunkens though. It might work on some maps?
I think people just want drama, and over hype any change just like what happened with the "game breaking" mass recall. I do hope this will get used in ASL/KSL or something, it would be fun to see!
I will go ahead and make a prediction: This funny little trick won't metter at all at high level games. In PvT this will never be a thing, not now not ever, in PvP it could be somehow useful in a super long super rare game were minerals on map are running out, In PvZ its a rather dumb idea to expend so much gas at mass Archons, Protoss make Archons vs Z with the templars that have already made their job and stormed their asses off, same as with PvP I can imagine a rare case scenario were it becomes somehow useful or viable but meh... I think we will be very very lucky if we ever get to see this trick just one time in a game that metters. I would say lets be cautious and not call the game imbalance police just yet, I think we are fine for now, lol
In case I'm wrong and this completely breaks BW balance we still have Age Of Empires II for us all to transition to. I have nice monk rush build I've been working on I'm willing to share with you...
There are players who already created an optimized timing push build (5 zealots + 2 archons vs zerg) with this bug.
Is that real or even practical?
No. Two Archons doesn't make any sense, since you need to hallucinate another templar which can't be used to merge with a hallucination.
It would have to be 3 Archons. Where 2 Archons come from 1 Hallucinate + 1 Fresh Templar, and the 3rd Archon comes from the original templar that cast hallucinate plus the templar that had to exist to be hallucinated.
I agree. People are baselessly concluding that this is imbalanced much too early.
People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
Why? Seems like a pretty arbitrary line. Dont fix any bugs! Huh?
The game is fine as is, we don't need any fix. There is a ton of stuff like BD mentioned regarding the client and such that can be fixed without playing with the game's code and Blizzard need to keep their hands off of that. Lucky for us, they seem to understand this and likely woudl not touch it.
You can say its fine, but that doesnt mean it is; people can now make units for half the cost on ladder or tourny, that isnt acceptable, whether or not bigfan claims so.
Archons are useful against Zerg, but it seems like zerg still have numerous ways of ending the game before this even comes in to play
Yes zerg often can beat protoss before late game, no, protoss reaching archon tech is not rare or all together challenging, and so half cost archons arent acceptable just because zerg can bust a toss earlier than that.
as can people use burrowed lurkers and all the other bug abuses, its fine
sometimes i fell its always fine until its something P has then it needs to be fixed xD if u remove it why not remove dragoon movebugs ? no u wont do that so dont fix it either
not all bugs are fine. producing units for half cost for instance, is not fine. Any late game scenario where a protoss is mineral low and has some gas banked, now hes double the threat. That situation isnt really all together rare...a lot of pvz's are going to come down to a few archons battling z over a key location. Only now that number will be doubled for nothing more than the guy researched hallucination and put like...thirty seconds of effort into doubling his best late game unit?
There are bugs that arguably add to the games skill set and increase the strategy-- mutalisk micro for instance-- and then there are glitches that give people free units. That is not acceptable. Unless this is something that is truly fucking hard to pull off, it will eventually be figured out, the skill set regularized, and even random noobs like me will use it with regularity in ladder games. People power boost workers, they do every little inane and difficult thing they possibly can to take an advantage. How could anyone think that this isnt something people are going to learn to do reliably? And once they do it reliably, pvz is fucked.
Air unit stacking is not a bug. It is clever usage of intended unit behaviour. Units aren't supposed to maintain formation when they are too spread out, because then they would remain at opposite sides of the map when ordered to move somewhere. To fix that, Blizzard made units attempt to move to the exact same point, instead of staying in formation, when they are too far away from each other. You use this by selecting a unit from far away with your group.
This archon technique is not as easy as you claim. Because the hallucinations must be older than the templars used, and hallucinations expire with time, this is difficult to do while also doing other things. It also uses up control groups.
Most maps are statistically somewhat Zerg favoured in ZvP. A little boost to Protoss is not going to be a problem on those maps. If a small boost to Terran emerged, on the other hand, then that would perhaps be a problem.
Its not clever usage of intended unit behaviour, its glitching a poorly thought out unit movement process, because no one thought of unit stacking. No one thought of it until almost seven years after the game was out. That isnt clever use, its figuring out how to glitch a poorly designed element of the game. And it happened to add a lot to the game, in terms of micro, builds, hell its the only thing that even makes zvt viable. Take out muta stacking and the zvt win rate would bottom out real fucking fast, so we keep it. Theres no fair comparison between muta stacking and spawning units for half cost-- incredibly powerful, matchup defining units, at that.
This archon technique is not as easy as you claim. Because the hallucinations must be older than the templars used, and hallucinations expire with time, this is difficult to do while also doing other things. It also uses up control groups.
Everything in bw is difficult, and all of it is learnable to a second nature degree. Its not exactly difficult to research hallucination, then time out your rotation of high templars in a game. It might take some doing, yes, but people will sit there and reload the same parts of the game till they get the timing and movement down. This is an imminently learnable and reproducible glitch.
They literally hard coded units to move to the same exact point if they are far away from each other, and to stay in formation if they are close to each other. They wanted a formation feature, but they had to put an area limit on it. The solution was to make spread out units move to the exact same point. It was intended. You can make use of this by keeping a unit far away in your group. Intended behaviour, unforeseen consequence of that behaviour. It's not a compile error. It's not even a logical error. It's not a bug in any sense of the word.
Again, you can debate semantics as to whether its a bug or not, I dont really care. It means nothing to me. It was not an intended feature of the game. Yes, that element of unit movement was intended, but its logical consequences were not thought of. Muta/corsair/wraith stacking was not intended to work this way.
On March 13 2019 03:10 ProMeTheus112 wrote: is it really hard to patch it so that when a HT morphes with a halu HT, instead of just taking the index of the later one to decide whether the resulting archon is going to be real or halu, it will check both index and if one is halu then the archon is halu or the morph impossible???? did the muta trick actually improve BW or worsen it? zvt would be too hard on modern maps without it, so i hear, but maybe the maps would be different, and maybe this match up would not so repeatedly open itself with 3hatch muta stuff. Quite likely 1base pvz would be playable, at the very least more playable, because you wouldn't need the corsairs to deal with muta like you pretty much do now. Whatever^^ (if it comes up that 1base opening in pvz becomes more viable because of this "half free archon" bug, i would probably just start doing it but what happens when you play lan and such? its just messy isn't it. Also wouldn't want a situation where you'd actually nearly have to use this every game if you do 1base opening for example. I guess we will see if tourney organisers decide that this is a forbidden bug or not [you lose the game if you used it]. And then, can you report a ladder opponent to get win if he did like on Iccup. I guess let's see what comes up of it for a while. . . Also : can it be fixed without messing 1.16 replays working on SC:R. I guess yes because it would not actually impact any replays that don't use the bug, depending how it is fixed. But then new 1.16 replays using the bug are going to bug. If not, can SC:R load a alternate code to play old version replays, suggested it before imo would be ideal for a developped RTS like Starcraft to be able to patch it without losing older replays)
150/150 cost for halu research, and you can already get a full free archon out of producing 2 more HTs after the 1st of your first two HTs has accumulated 100 energy (quite soon since they start at 50). That's already 100/300 worth of generation using bug, so you're at -50/+150, not to mention you didn't need to have extra gate production time to produce 2 extra HT for making an extra archon. Do it one more time using 2nd HT energy and you got another free archon and you're at +50/+450. Very soon you'd be able to do it with more templars, and start accumulating energy in your base and get that counter up to +450/+1950 and counting. Fair? Usable, but depends on lat? How annoying to do? just my thoughts as I have not actually tried to do it so far other than offline which doesn't work apparently. ps: ok it works on slowest speed on 1.16, pretty annoying to do CTRL1-1-R as fast as possible it looks like^^
I feel like the real tragedy is the way muta stacking killed one base tvz, which means we need very easy FE maps, terran grows in a more dangerous way than zerg and zerg requires defilers + muta stacking and pretty generically made maps [close third gas blah blah] in order to survive.
It is arguable i would say, if we really should of stuck with muta stacking or if we should still keep with it. Personally, I think broodwar is actually a better game when its confined to a bit of a slower pace and naturals and thirds a bit harder to take, but the community seems not to. I will say that without modern muta stacking zvz would become even sketchier than it already is.
Another update as I go through stuff. Even though you can't hallucinate interceptors you can hallucinate spider mines. Also you can hallucinate reavers and they will fire scarabs if they had scarabs prior to hallucinating.
I don't see any reason to patch this out, just explicitly allow or disallow it in competitive rulesets, just like with hold lurkers, gas stack etc. I don't see it having much impact on the game, just like the Total Recall. I think the Total Recall was only used in 1 pro game since it was discovered, by Horang2 when he was already really far ahead and his opponent was crippled. Both tricks require a decent amount of attention and setup during which you're not macroing or controlling your army. So barring Bisu-level multitask to squeeze out some extra value while not falling behind in other aspects, it's not too intimidating.
I don't think Hallucination before Storm is viable at all, against normal Zerg macro builds without Storm you just die to pure hydra in the 8:00-9:30 range.
That 5 Zealot, 2 Archon timing attack sounds like a joke. You'd have to make 2 templar to let them accumulate energy, research hallucinate, wait for 100 energy, hallucinate, make 2 more high templar, make the half priced Archons, and go. That's WAY slower and 150/150 more expensive than just making 4 High Templar and morphing 2 Archons! Now do all that while surviving 5 hatch hydra knocking at your door with no storm. Even if you skipped Stargate to get it out faster and relied on Archons, Mutas would run you ragged. And with only +0 or +1 weapons, Archons get eaten alive by speedlings. If the attack itself is that strong, people would do it without the bug, but they don't.
Morphing Archons in PvZ is a way of getting residual value out of High Templars that have already used their storms before they get sniped, or a reactionary counter to mutas. The gosu move would be to use the storms during a push while saving energy on a final HT, make hallucinations, and morph half-price archons mid-fight.
Making them back at base for a timing seems counter-productive. If I'm facing a 12:30 push, I'm much happier seeing 3 Templar and 3 Archons coming my way, as opposed to 6 Templar with Khaydarin Amulet. The former may eventually die to reinforcements from other bases and leaves fewer storms in reserve if you have to clear lurker fields. They're exactly the same price, and every 2 half-price Archons cost you more than a storm in energy (100 energy for halluc, 75 for storm).
On March 11 2019 23:01 BigFan wrote: [quote] People do that for everything nowadays. I'd rather Blizzard didn't touch the balance in any way, shape or form, including fixing this.
Why? Seems like a pretty arbitrary line. Dont fix any bugs! Huh?
The game is fine as is, we don't need any fix. There is a ton of stuff like BD mentioned regarding the client and such that can be fixed without playing with the game's code and Blizzard need to keep their hands off of that. Lucky for us, they seem to understand this and likely woudl not touch it.
You can say its fine, but that doesnt mean it is; people can now make units for half the cost on ladder or tourny, that isnt acceptable, whether or not bigfan claims so.
Archons are useful against Zerg, but it seems like zerg still have numerous ways of ending the game before this even comes in to play
Yes zerg often can beat protoss before late game, no, protoss reaching archon tech is not rare or all together challenging, and so half cost archons arent acceptable just because zerg can bust a toss earlier than that.
as can people use burrowed lurkers and all the other bug abuses, its fine
sometimes i fell its always fine until its something P has then it needs to be fixed xD if u remove it why not remove dragoon movebugs ? no u wont do that so dont fix it either
not all bugs are fine. producing units for half cost for instance, is not fine. Any late game scenario where a protoss is mineral low and has some gas banked, now hes double the threat. That situation isnt really all together rare...a lot of pvz's are going to come down to a few archons battling z over a key location. Only now that number will be doubled for nothing more than the guy researched hallucination and put like...thirty seconds of effort into doubling his best late game unit?
There are bugs that arguably add to the games skill set and increase the strategy-- mutalisk micro for instance-- and then there are glitches that give people free units. That is not acceptable. Unless this is something that is truly fucking hard to pull off, it will eventually be figured out, the skill set regularized, and even random noobs like me will use it with regularity in ladder games. People power boost workers, they do every little inane and difficult thing they possibly can to take an advantage. How could anyone think that this isnt something people are going to learn to do reliably? And once they do it reliably, pvz is fucked.
Air unit stacking is not a bug. It is clever usage of intended unit behaviour. Units aren't supposed to maintain formation when they are too spread out, because then they would remain at opposite sides of the map when ordered to move somewhere. To fix that, Blizzard made units attempt to move to the exact same point, instead of staying in formation, when they are too far away from each other. You use this by selecting a unit from far away with your group.
This archon technique is not as easy as you claim. Because the hallucinations must be older than the templars used, and hallucinations expire with time, this is difficult to do while also doing other things. It also uses up control groups.
Most maps are statistically somewhat Zerg favoured in ZvP. A little boost to Protoss is not going to be a problem on those maps. If a small boost to Terran emerged, on the other hand, then that would perhaps be a problem.
Its not clever usage of intended unit behaviour, its glitching a poorly thought out unit movement process, because no one thought of unit stacking. No one thought of it until almost seven years after the game was out. That isnt clever use, its figuring out how to glitch a poorly designed element of the game. And it happened to add a lot to the game, in terms of micro, builds, hell its the only thing that even makes zvt viable. Take out muta stacking and the zvt win rate would bottom out real fucking fast, so we keep it. Theres no fair comparison between muta stacking and spawning units for half cost-- incredibly powerful, matchup defining units, at that.
This archon technique is not as easy as you claim. Because the hallucinations must be older than the templars used, and hallucinations expire with time, this is difficult to do while also doing other things. It also uses up control groups.
Everything in bw is difficult, and all of it is learnable to a second nature degree. Its not exactly difficult to research hallucination, then time out your rotation of high templars in a game. It might take some doing, yes, but people will sit there and reload the same parts of the game till they get the timing and movement down. This is an imminently learnable and reproducible glitch.
They literally hard coded units to move to the same exact point if they are far away from each other, and to stay in formation if they are close to each other. They wanted a formation feature, but they had to put an area limit on it. The solution was to make spread out units move to the exact same point. It was intended. You can make use of this by keeping a unit far away in your group. Intended behaviour, unforeseen consequence of that behaviour. It's not a compile error. It's not even a logical error. It's not a bug in any sense of the word.
Again, you can debate semantics as to whether its a bug or not, I dont really care. It means nothing to me. It was not an intended feature of the game. Yes, that element of unit movement was intended, but its logical consequences were not thought of. Muta/corsair/wraith stacking was not intended to work this way.
On March 13 2019 03:10 ProMeTheus112 wrote: is it really hard to patch it so that when a HT morphes with a halu HT, instead of just taking the index of the later one to decide whether the resulting archon is going to be real or halu, it will check both index and if one is halu then the archon is halu or the morph impossible???? did the muta trick actually improve BW or worsen it? zvt would be too hard on modern maps without it, so i hear, but maybe the maps would be different, and maybe this match up would not so repeatedly open itself with 3hatch muta stuff. Quite likely 1base pvz would be playable, at the very least more playable, because you wouldn't need the corsairs to deal with muta like you pretty much do now. Whatever^^ (if it comes up that 1base opening in pvz becomes more viable because of this "half free archon" bug, i would probably just start doing it but what happens when you play lan and such? its just messy isn't it. Also wouldn't want a situation where you'd actually nearly have to use this every game if you do 1base opening for example. I guess we will see if tourney organisers decide that this is a forbidden bug or not [you lose the game if you used it]. And then, can you report a ladder opponent to get win if he did like on Iccup. I guess let's see what comes up of it for a while. . . Also : can it be fixed without messing 1.16 replays working on SC:R. I guess yes because it would not actually impact any replays that don't use the bug, depending how it is fixed. But then new 1.16 replays using the bug are going to bug. If not, can SC:R load a alternate code to play old version replays, suggested it before imo would be ideal for a developped RTS like Starcraft to be able to patch it without losing older replays)
150/150 cost for halu research, and you can already get a full free archon out of producing 2 more HTs after the 1st of your first two HTs has accumulated 100 energy (quite soon since they start at 50). That's already 100/300 worth of generation using bug, so you're at -50/+150, not to mention you didn't need to have extra gate production time to produce 2 extra HT for making an extra archon. Do it one more time using 2nd HT energy and you got another free archon and you're at +50/+450. Very soon you'd be able to do it with more templars, and start accumulating energy in your base and get that counter up to +450/+1950 and counting. Fair? Usable, but depends on lat? How annoying to do? just my thoughts as I have not actually tried to do it so far other than offline which doesn't work apparently. ps: ok it works on slowest speed on 1.16, pretty annoying to do CTRL1-1-R as fast as possible it looks like^^
I feel like the real tragedy is the way muta stacking killed one base tvz, which means we need very easy FE maps, terran grows in a more dangerous way than zerg and zerg requires defilers + muta stacking and pretty generically made maps [close third gas blah blah] in order to survive.
It is arguable i would say, if we really should of stuck with muta stacking or if we should still keep with it. Personally, I think broodwar is actually a better game when its confined to a bit of a slower pace and naturals and thirds a bit harder to take, but the community seems not to. I will say that without modern muta stacking zvz would become even sketchier than it already is.
One base TvZ would return if maps had difficult expansions. Easy expansions are to help Zerg vs Terran, not the other way around.
Again, you can debate semantics as to whether its a bug or not, I dont really care. It means nothing to me. It was not an intended feature of the game. Yes, that element of unit movement was intended, but its logical consequences were not thought of. Muta/corsair/wraith stacking was not intended to work this way.
Only scrubs care about what was intended. Real men care about what's good for the game. Reaver shuttle micro probably wasn't intended or foreseen either. It's a creative game, and the creators obviously didn't think of every possibility. None the less, unintended strategies using intended unit behaviour, and unintended unit behaviour (logical programming errors, also known as bugs) are of different categories, and for you to call muta stacking a bug as an argument against it, is intellectually dishonest, because it isn't. Half priced archons are a bug. Air unit stacking isn't. Air units behaving as they do was an intended feature of the game. Did Blizzard have to foresee the use of every unit for it to be valid? Is attacking by laying mines next to an enemy not valid, if they didn't think of it? Is it valid if they did? Ridiculous. They gave us the tool on purpose, and we can use it how we want. Stacking air units is no different than microing to prevent units from walking in a line, or using the magic box, or smart hotkeys to make scourge or queen cloning easier.
Does this archon bug let you go over the 200 supply limit somehow? Since you can keep doing the hallucinations with the same templars and merge with new ones.
Anyway even if a rush doesn't work, you can still make a bunch of real archons out of nowhere by accumulating templars, then merge those templars as well.
One base TvZ would return if maps had difficult expansions. Easy expansions are to help Zerg vs Terran, not the other way around.
Only on extremeist cases like neo requiem are one base builds actually viable independent of mutalisk control [and even then...]. Once mutalisks rendered one base builds obsolete, the only choice was to go forward into macro based maps, and in a framework where naturals were already easy to take, maps became larger so that zergs could afford to put sunkens down in time.
Again, you can debate semantics as to whether its a bug or not, I dont really care. It means nothing to me. It was not an intended feature of the game. Yes, that element of unit movement was intended, but its logical consequences were not thought of. Muta/corsair/wraith stacking was not intended to work this way.
Only scrubs care about what was intended. Real men care about what's good for the game.
So brash. Lots of words saying nothing. I already made the case that glitches should be fixed based on how they impact the game. Why are you even replying to me at this point? You've nothing to say.
On March 15 2019 00:33 LG)Sabbath wrote: Does this archon bug let you go over the 200 supply limit somehow? Since you can keep doing the hallucinations with the same templars and merge with new ones.
Anyway even if a rush doesn't work, you can still make a bunch of real archons out of nowhere by accumulating templars, then merge those templars as well.
Merging archons does add supply. But when you are maxed out this 100% puts you over max. In this screen shot I did two at once. This is insane!
PvT You know how in some lategame PvT Protoss players sometimes make mass Archons out of desperation because they have so much extra gas? What’s to stop them from making Hallucination to double their amount of Archons? I think this will effect lategame PvT as well as PvZ.
On March 15 2019 02:30 Alpha-NP- wrote: PvT You know how in some lategame PvT Protoss players sometimes make mass Archons out of desperation because they have so much extra gas? What’s to stop them from making Hallucination to double their amount of Archons? I think this will effect lategame PvT as well as PvZ.
Maybe this is something that finally makes Hallucination viable for something. In a long game I think a Protoss could wait 2 minutes for enough energy to effectively double the amount of Archons he has.
The more I think about this, the more it seems like the main limiting factor is that the the hallucinations have to be made first, and then you have to merge them with the HT you made last.
You can exceed the supply cap a little, but not infinitely, because once you're over you can't make more HT anymore. At best, you can exceed it by 2 for every gateway you have building a HT all at once.
You can't do it with leftover HT after a battle. You have to do it with freshly-made HT, which have at least 50 energy and would normally have enough to storm before a big battle starts.
You have to use up 100 energy for the hallucination first, and then you can't merge that HT (because it was made first). Well, you can merge it normally, but the half-price trick won't work on it. So you're giving up at least 150 energy to make these archons, which could have been two storms. The HT that you "save" using this trick is probably left with near 0 energy.
Because of all that, and the necessary micro, it just doesn't seem very practical except maybe some very specific late-game situations. Most of the time you'd rather just have the HT energy, not to mention the money spent on hallucination.
I wonder if this might be more practical with dark archons though? At least that way, the real DT that you sacrifice to make the DA isn't losing his energy. You'd break on the cost of HT + hallucination after making 3 dark archons, and then they'd all be cheaper for the rest of the game.
On March 15 2019 03:28 Alpha-NP- wrote: Maybe this is something that finally makes Hallucination viable for something. In a long game I think a Protoss could wait 2 minutes for enough energy to effectively double the amount of Archons he has.
That 5 Zealot, 2 Archon timing attack sounds like a joke. You'd have to make 2 templar to let them accumulate energy, research hallucinate, wait for 100 energy, hallucinate, make 2 more high templar, make the half priced Archons, and go. That's WAY slower and 150/150 more expensive than just making 4 High Templar and morphing 2 Archons! Now do all that while surviving 5 hatch hydra knocking at your door with no storm. Even if you skipped Stargate to get it out faster and relied on Archons, Mutas would run you ragged. And with only +0 or +1 weapons, Archons get eaten alive by speedlings. If the attack itself is that strong, people would do it without the bug, but they don't.
What about a FIVE archon timing attack .
Two gateways make two HT, research hallucination (skip storm) while waiting for them to gain energy and research hallucination, build zealots and two more gateways (save gas) hallucinate with each of them (4 hallucination HTs total), then build 4 HT all at once half price trick with all the new HT, then regular morph your old HT
Go attack with your five archons and five zealots.
We are going to see some games using this in the future. The crowd that keeps saying that because this is unorthodox it won’t work will be proven wrong.
Two gateways make two HT, research hallucination (skip storm) while waiting for them to gain energy and research hallucination, build zealots and two more gateways (save gas) hallucinate with each of them (4 hallucination HTs total), then build 4 HT all at once half price trick with all the new HT, then regular morph your old HT
Go attack with your five archons and five zealots.
That's a lotta Archons.
I'd like to try it and see if you could still afford a Stargate and Zealot legs, maybe even more than 5 Zealots. I still think that if you skip Stargate and Storm for an Archon timing attack, you'd have to leave the Archons at home to deflect Mutalisks, which defeats the purpose. You'd also need to deny scouting somehow. Archons are significantly slower than speed Zealots and the attack can only travel at the speed of the Archons, if the Archons are separated from the Zealots they get picked off fairly quickly. But I can see it working, it just requires testing of the different variations.
On March 15 2019 07:00 Alpha-NP- wrote: We are going to see some games using this in the future. The crowd that keeps saying that because this is unorthodox it won’t work will be proven wrong.
Best uses half priced Archons in PvZ
its honestly a pretty egregious example I think of cognitive dissonance. anyone can see that this is a glitch that can be reproduced, and given how narrow broodwars balance is and the strength of archons, anyone should see how a simple task generating more or less free troops isnt acceptable. And yet here we are, having a debate about it? The lengths people will go to in order to justify having an unfair advantage over others. Truly some scumbags within this community.
May not be the right thread to ask but does any one know the answer to these 2 things?: if you hallucinate a shuttle full of units will it make a hallucinated units as well in that shuttle? Also can a shuttle carry hallucinated units?
from what best did it looks like apparently you can reset the index of HTs by loading them in a shuttle and unloading them after you have created halucinated templars, then their index is higher than the halu again and you can use the bug on them to get real archons (tested it it works)
realzork if you halucinate a shuttle you will just get regular empty halu shuttles that can't load stuff, and yes you can carry halucinations in a shuttle
Can confirm: * shuttle pickup resets unit tag so archon trick will work
also: * spells that instantly kill halucinations when casted on them -stasis, irradiate, d-matrix, plague consume, ensnare, spawn broodlings, parasite -none of these cause instant death on the budget archon
* Can stasis locked-down unit, but cannot lockdown stasised unit * Can recall locked-down unit, but cannot recall stasised unit * Can irradiate then lockdown then stasis. If an irradiated unit is put under stasis it will not lose health * Can parasite->ensnare-dmatrix-irradiate->plague->stasis battlecruise and it won't lose health -TLDR: stasis your plagued units in a PvZ and you can keep them full health lol
* A d-matrix-ed irradiated unit will lose health significantly slower * You can magic eraser an SCV line * nukes cannot be stormed, stassised, or locked down when leaving or re-entering * hallucinated infested terrans still perform suicides
On March 15 2019 11:03 BisuDagger wrote: Nothing ground breaking here, but some fun:
Can confirm: * shuttle pickup resets unit tag so archon trick will work
also: * spells that instantly kill halucinations when casted on them -stasis, irradiate, d-matrix, plague consume, ensnare, spawn broodlings, parasite -none of these cause instant death on the budget archon
Course not, cause its a real Archon.
* Can stasis locked-down unit, but cannot lockdown stasised unit * Can recall locked-down unit, but cannot recall stasised unit * Can irradiate then lockdown then stasis. If an irradiated unit is put under stasis it will not lose health
I guess one could put it more generally: Stasised units are not affected by anything else.
* Can parasite->ensnare-dmatrix-irradiate->plague->stasis battlecruise and it won't lose health -TLDR: stasis your plagued units in a PvZ and you can keep them full health lol
You could also mind control a Science Vessel, then send any irradiated Unit into an enemy's SCV line and lock it in place there with stasis -> invincible eraser. Unfortunately it cannot move either and all nearby SCVs would be protected by Stasis as well, but A+ for style!
* A d-matrix-ed irradiated unit will lose health significantly slower
On March 15 2019 05:11 Luddite wrote: You can exceed the supply cap a little, but not infinitely, because once you're over you can't make more HT anymore. At best, you can exceed it by 2 for every gateway you have building a HT all at once.
Well from BisuDagger's images it looks like you can add up to 5 archons, I think in a late game battle that can make a huge difference
It's annoying because if you lose a ZvP late game you can't even tell if they used the bug unless you check the replay
On March 15 2019 11:03 BisuDagger wrote: Nothing ground breaking here, but some fun:
Can confirm: * shuttle pickup resets unit tag so archon trick will work
also: * spells that instantly kill halucinations when casted on them -stasis, irradiate, d-matrix, plague consume, ensnare, spawn broodlings, parasite -none of these cause instant death on the budget archon
* Can stasis locked-down unit, but cannot lockdown stasised unit * Can recall locked-down unit, but cannot recall stasised unit * Can irradiate then lockdown then stasis. If an irradiated unit is put under stasis it will not lose health
I guess one could put it more generally: Stasised units are not affected by anything else.
* Can parasite->ensnare-dmatrix-irradiate->plague->stasis battlecruise and it won't lose health -TLDR: stasis your plagued units in a PvZ and you can keep them full health lol
You could also mind control a Science Vessel, then send any irradiated Unit into an enemy's SCV line and lock it in place their with stasis -> invincible eraser. Unfortunately it cannot move either and all nearby SCVs would be protected by Stasis as well, but A+ for style!
* hallucinated infested terrans still perform suicides
So do Scourge, Mines, Scarabs. It's just their normal attack. They don't deal any damage though.
I know I posted some redundant stuff, but it's not always known by newer SC players. :D
Things I tried that don't work using the shift+1, 1 trick: * Burrowing lurkers won't cause other units to burrow when burrow is not researched even though the ability appears. I thought that'd be awesomely broken * All spells and abilities (like repair) using tricked hallucinated units from all races
The 'unit can research/upgrade/use tech' functions all check whether the unit is hallucinated or not. Just in the case of archons it isn't skipping hallucinated units when searching for the closest high templer / dark templer to merge with. And since the unit that is merged with just has the status flags dropped, the hallucinated status goes away. (And invincible, if it were invincible due to triggers)
Most orders are also prevented, except SuicideUnit. However I don't see whether the damage is applied or not.
Btw this one looks a lot like an exploit, much more then the total-recall one... I mean archons for free? Are you kidding me? Lets introduce free ultras and free BCs tho
i find this all so damn fascinating. i hope that it is one of two things: 1. a competitive mainstay 2. dies or gets patched
because i don't think online results should skew one way if this ends up being a substantial way of playing in the next year if it cannot be reproduced on lan. so we'll have a weird situation where protoss owns online and sucks offline because of this.
thanks to all the posters who have been experimenting
On March 17 2019 04:07 Alejandrisha wrote: i find this all so damn fascinating. i hope that it is one of two things: 1. a competitive mainstay 2. dies or gets patched
because i don't think online results should skew one way if this ends up being a substantial way of playing in the next year if it cannot be reproduced on lan. so we'll have a weird situation where protoss owns online and sucks offline because of this.
thanks to all the posters who have been experimenting
On March 17 2019 04:07 Alejandrisha wrote: i find this all so damn fascinating. i hope that it is one of two things: 1. a competitive mainstay 2. dies or gets patched
because i don't think online results should skew one way if this ends up being a substantial way of playing in the next year if it cannot be reproduced on lan. so we'll have a weird situation where protoss owns online and sucks offline because of this.
thanks to all the posters who have been experimenting
It can be reproduced on lan. I've done it myself.
good. that's all i needed to know! good luck asl protosses lets see some 40 archon games late game pvz
On March 17 2019 04:07 Alejandrisha wrote: i find this all so damn fascinating. i hope that it is one of two things: 1. a competitive mainstay 2. dies or gets patched
because i don't think online results should skew one way if this ends up being a substantial way of playing in the next year if it cannot be reproduced on lan. so we'll have a weird situation where protoss owns online and sucks offline because of this.
thanks to all the posters who have been experimenting
Just to summarize the results of testing/analysis: The limiting factor here (and with related glitches) is the UI refresh delay which is influenced by a) latency/turn rate and b) game speed. At worst (fastest speed, turn rate ~24) this means you have 42ms (frame duration at fastest) to execute the full bottom meshing combo. If this is practically possible? No idea. I am not a 500 APM monster, so how would I know.
On March 17 2019 04:07 Alejandrisha wrote: i find this all so damn fascinating. i hope that it is one of two things: 1. a competitive mainstay 2. dies or gets patched
because i don't think online results should skew one way if this ends up being a substantial way of playing in the next year if it cannot be reproduced on lan. so we'll have a weird situation where protoss owns online and sucks offline because of this.
thanks to all the posters who have been experimenting
Just to summarize the results of testing/analysis: The limiting factor here (and with related glitches) is the UI refresh delay which is influenced by a) latency/turn rate and b) game speed. At worst (fastest speed, turn rate ~24) this means you have 42ms (frame duration at fastest) to execute the full bottom meshing combo. If this is practically possible? No idea. I am not a 500 APM monster, so how would I know.
It's certainly possible. In fighting games, people can do 2 frame links consistently, 100% of the time, with practice. That's 2/60 of a second, since the games run at 60fps. 1 frame links, people can only get about half of the time at most.
This isn't exactly the same, since links require precise timing, and this is pure speed, but I still submit it as evidence that humans can do stuff like this pretty well.
On March 15 2019 02:30 Alpha-NP- wrote: PvT You know how in some lategame PvT Protoss players sometimes make mass Archons out of desperation because they have so much extra gas? What’s to stop them from making Hallucination to double their amount of Archons? I think this will effect lategame PvT as well as PvZ.
I would be a very happy Terran player if my Protoss opponent masses archons against me, half priced or not. They get absolutely wrecked by vultures, tanks and emp.
On March 15 2019 02:30 Alpha-NP- wrote: PvT You know how in some lategame PvT Protoss players sometimes make mass Archons out of desperation because they have so much extra gas? What’s to stop them from making Hallucination to double their amount of Archons? I think this will effect lategame PvT as well as PvZ.
I would be a very happy Terran player if my Protoss opponent masses archons against me, half priced or not. They get absolutely wrecked by vultures, tanks and emp.
Only situation where archs are halfway decent is when you recall them into a third base, close to tanks. They also can wreck a min line before terran is even reacting.
Other than that or very specific situations, archs just suck pvt.
On March 15 2019 02:30 Alpha-NP- wrote: PvT You know how in some lategame PvT Protoss players sometimes make mass Archons out of desperation because they have so much extra gas? What’s to stop them from making Hallucination to double their amount of Archons? I think this will effect lategame PvT as well as PvZ.
I would be a very happy Terran player if my Protoss opponent masses archons against me, half priced or not. They get absolutely wrecked by vultures, tanks and emp.
Only situation where archs are halfway decent is when you recall them into a third base, close to tanks. They also can wreck a min line before terran is even reacting.
Other than that or very specific situations, archs just suck pvt.
Another situation is a very long and balanced game where most of the minerals have been gathered and you fight over few gas-intensive/tactical units... there, few free Archons might make a HUGE difference.
EPT
i wouldn't want my opponent to do this against me, and don't want to use it (debatable i guess^^). So what a certain community considers as cheating, does blizzard also consider it as cheating, then they should probably fix it.![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/AdH9CYG.jpg)
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