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On May 23 2018 00:37 Uldridge wrote:
If the feeling better is an illusion, the feeling is rooted in falsehood. It's a fairy tale. It can be dangerous. It's not necessary. I'm not saying it's bad for the game to make this change, per se. I'm saying that if it turns out the change doesn't change performance at all, people's "feelings" about the true FoW are unfounded and need to change. If you would learn to know something isn't true, even if you initially felt like it was true, would you still think it's true after you learnt it wasn't? Wouldn't it make you feel neutral if you learned to know that the changes didn't mean jack shit? It would mean your anxiety or "bad feeling" was all personal and it's something you need to actively combat instead of something external needing to change because you don't like it.
And by performance I meant the same player before and after the change. Not both players playing the same game lol, that's not representative.
Again, if these changes actually turn out of be significant for player performance, by all means, change them. I'm just not convinced they will significantly change performance, but I'm up for experimentation nonetheless!
The problem about these kinds of purely philosophical arguments is that they do not take into account that there will always be lots of real people who either don't even ask those questions.
And just because no "real effects" are going to be expected on the highest level of play, where players know the maps in and out anyway (well, the aspects they think that mater at least), that does not mean that most players won't feel more comfortable playing on a new map, that is all the effect you'd ever want. You can't just dismiss it because "feelings, man, ain't real".
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On May 23 2018 00:37 Uldridge wrote:
If the feeling better is an illusion, the feeling is rooted in falsehood. It's a fairy tale. It can be dangerous. It's not necessary. I'm not saying it's bad for the game to make this change, per se. I'm saying that if it turns out the change doesn't change performance at all, people's "feelings" about the true FoW are unfounded and need to change. If you would learn to know something isn't true, even if you initially felt like it was true, would you still think it's true after you learnt it wasn't? Wouldn't it make you feel neutral if you learned to know that the changes didn't mean jack shit? It would mean your anxiety or "bad feeling" was all personal and it's something you need to actively combat instead of something external needing to change because you don't like it.
And by performance I meant the same player before and after the change. Not both players playing the same game lol, that's not representative.
Again, if these changes actually turn out of be significant for player performance, by all means, change them. I'm just not convinced they will significantly change performance, but I'm up for experimentation nonetheless!
Yeah, this goes to nowhere. You are just telling me how i feel. I cant argue against that. You know whats not a feeling? People playing on the same 1-2 maps for X years. Damn shame i cant look into veto statistics
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If your feeling is unwarranted do some introspection. You might learn a thing or two about yourself.
If your feeling is warranted, hey, you found out something that can be optimized and was accordingly.
Again, I'm not advocating against the change per se, I'm advocating against the change before any experimentation has been done on which any conclusions can be drawn. You're making conclusions before you've actually tested stuff.
Also: I guess that feeling more comfortable because of changes through an external agent (Blizzard changing an aspect of their game) is more important than becoming comfortable through changes you make yourself.
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This is so overly pedantic i cannot really believe it quite frankly. So you do not believe that someone would memorize an image faster when he constantly looks at it compared to only looking at some parts of it. If you play a game of starcraft you are constantly checking the minimap, that is part of playing the game. You will therefore constantly see the actual image of the map in the scenario where it isn't blacked out. The same is obviously not true for the blacked out map.
It's not rocket science, it's really simple.
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What post of mine are you talking about and I don't believe that. I'm talking about functional, actually interacting parts of the map. The map you look at and where you place buildings on, not the minimap per se.
I actually tabbed the minimap when playing because I couldn't discern the colors that clearly (even when the colors were put to red and yellow by default) so everything was black except for buildings, units and resources. So I guess it shows you different people have different things going for them.
Wait... is this entire thread just about the minimap? Because if it is, that makes almost all of my posts irrelevant lol. Performance wouldn't really change if minimap isn't blacked out from the start so go ahead with the changes if they're so desperately needed, but lay off the actual map before actual experimenting with it!
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No it's not only about the minimap but looking at the minimap is a direct thing you do which helps you learn the map. You seem to suggest that one has to prove that it has a positive effect when it isn't blacked out, i think it is quite pedantic because it seems really obvious.
You also say things like feelings don't really matter if it's not based on reality, the reality is that feelings are part of reality though. Meaning if people like something better that's already part of reality. One could argue that you don't have to object to this when there is a clear goal behind not changing it, but there doesn't seem to be any. (like for example more people would probably like bw if it had unlimited unit selection, but in this case we can qute easily find arguments against the implementation. The same isn't true for the black minimap/map)
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On May 23 2018 01:36 Uldridge wrote:
If your feeling is unwarranted do some introspection. You might learn a thing or two about yourself.
If your feeling is warranted, hey, you found out something that can be optimized and was accordingly.
Again, I'm not advocating against the change per se, I'm advocating against the change before any experimentation has been done on which any conclusions can be drawn. You're making conclusions before you've actually tested stuff.
Also: I guess that feeling more comfortable because of changes through an external agent (Blizzard changing an aspect of their game) is more important than becoming comfortable through changes you make yourself.
You are confusing things: Those are your feelings, not my. You are telling me that i feel like having a hard time going through 7 different, rotating maps. Yes, rotating. New maps are introduced all the time You are also telling me that knowing where my random race opponent (could have) spawned is really not that important. Its probably just the hormons. Test what? That looking at a not black minimap gives you a better idea what the map looks like? Yeah, lets get the scientists on that one. Its gonna take them years for the results
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No, I'm saying the minimap being blacked out or not won't have any effect. I've been talking about the map itself the entire time.
Dude, I've already explained this. Feelings are a part of reality, but you being wrong and your feelings being wrong doesn't mean you get to say: change this so I feel better. I mean you could, and certain people would change this, but it's much healthier for you, if your feelings are wrong, to change yourself.
My clear goal behind not changing it is this: don't change shit that don't need to be changed, the shit works fine, it's you not being comfortable with the shit and you should try to feel peace with the shit being that way instead of someone else changing the shit. Also, from a more personal point: I like the blackness, it's symbolic for unexplored terrain. So I feel it's more thematic to keep the blackness in and to keep it unaltered. But I don't really use that as an argument now, am I?
On May 23 2018 02:22 10dla wrote:
You are confusing things: Those are your feelings, not my. You are telling me that i feel like having a hard time going through 7 different, rotating maps. Yes, rotating. New maps are introduced all the time You are also telling me that knowing where my random race opponent (could have) spawned is really not that important. Its probably just the hormons. Test what? That looking at a not black minimap gives you a better idea what the map looks like? Yeah, lets get the scientists on that one. Its gonna take them years for the results
You generally know where your opponent could spawn. You'd have to have mental impairment to not click in the general vicinity of possible spawning points and you should be able to correct the path while you're scouting. So I don't think it's a big deal at all.
And I've already said the blackened minimap shouldn't necessarily been there. If that's what the point of this thread was, I apologize for all those posts because I clearly missed the point.
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I cant figure out where spawns are in a symmetrical square map, heeeelpp!!
Is this really what the community has come to? Your bad, grow up. Be a man for fuck sakes.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 23 2018 02:36 Dazed. wrote:
I cant figure out where spawns are in a symmetrical square map, heeeelpp!!
Is this really what the community has come to? Your bad, grow up. Be a man for fuck sakes.
Yeah go fuck yourself. You are truely living in the FS only area. Why arent you man enough to not add symmetrical? Why do you keep on implying that i talk about symmetrical maps? Just to be a piece of shit? "What has this community come to". The funniest part. You are talking about the community that decided to play 1 map for how many years?
User was warned for this post.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 23 2018 02:26 Uldridge wrote:No, I'm saying the minimap being blacked out or not won't have any effect. I've been talking about the map itself the entire time. Dude, I've already explained this. Feelings are a part of reality, but you being wrong and your feelings being wrong doesn't mean you get to say: change this so I feel better. I mean you could, and certain people would change this, but it's much healthier for you, if your feelings are wrong, to change yourself. My clear goal behind not changing it is this: don't change shit that don't need to be changed, the shit works fine, it's you not being comfortable with the shit and you should try to feel peace with the shit being that way instead of someone else changing the shit. Also, from a more personal point: I like the blackness, it's symbolic for unexplored terrain. So I feel it's more thematic to keep the blackness in and to keep it unaltered. But I don't really use that as an argument now, am I? Show nested quote +On May 23 2018 02:22 10dla wrote:
You are confusing things: Those are your feelings, not my. You are telling me that i feel like having a hard time going through 7 different, rotating maps. Yes, rotating. New maps are introduced all the time You are also telling me that knowing where my random race opponent (could have) spawned is really not that important. Its probably just the hormons. Test what? That looking at a not black minimap gives you a better idea what the map looks like? Yeah, lets get the scientists on that one. Its gonna take them years for the results You generally know where your opponent could spawn. You'd have to have mental impairment to not click in the general vicinity of possible spawning points and you should be able to correct the path while you're scouting. So I don't think it's a big deal at all. And I've already said the blackened minimap shouldn't necessarily been there. If that's what the point of this thread was, I apologize for all those posts because I clearly missed the point.
The map and minimap go hand in hand, i only used the example of the minimap because it more easily shows why it is "better" when talking about learning a map.
Feelings here could mean something as simple as liking A over B, you cannot be wrong there. Funnily enough people arguing in favor of keeping the fow as it is are basically saying "i like it better", it's entirely based on emotions.
I called you pedantic because you seem to suggest that it's very out there to suggest that looking at an image constantly would help with memorizing said image. We learn by repetition, in this case looking at the map (and in my example the minimap).
I agree with your core argument for sure, it shouldn't be changed if it has no positive effect (though as i said, even something as simple as more people enjoying it is actually a positive effect). There really aren't any new perspectives about this at this point though.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51109 Posts
Keep the discussion civil.
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Bisutopia19369 Posts
On May 23 2018 00:48 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2018 21:07 BisuDagger wrote:On May 22 2018 18:18 Glioburd wrote:The SC2 system is pretty good for new players and/or new maps. Meaning a "dark" fog of war on the entire map. The player would have to explore before building tho. It should be adjustable, maybe not by the player but in the map settings. If you play a campaign or some UMS, the classic black area should fits better. (Also why Bisudagger has been warned for this post? xd) The best part about that warning is that it was a real one through the TL system even though it was a joke lol. Any mod could have just edited my post. I'm not sure which solution was lazier. Doesn't matter. That warning is now proof you are a CONVICT, and will be cited when someone disagrees with you in a different thread.
Looks like your proof has gone poof.
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Well, this discussion seems to devolve completely right now.
Just one thing: It is not that this feature would be new and untested or anything. FOW free map versions have been there since forever, and it's been tested in countless other strategy games as well. All the discussion is really about is whether Blizzard should implement this as an option on their side, because the current implementation have a number of problems (needing separate map files, for one).
It's actually quite like customizable hotkeys – in a way they have always been there, just very badly implemented (in the form of different language versions of the game).
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When i saw the first page of this, I just had a sinking feeling that this was going to happen and 10dla would end up raging. Why cant we talk about FoW civilly guys?
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The SC2-style dark fog of war minimap at the beginning of the game is objectively better than a completely black minimap. It provides a more even starting level of knowledge of the map for both players. I can't think of a single other competitive game/esport where the map/board/field of play is expected to be memorized beforehand and invisible at the start of the game. It's an artificial difficulty that does nothing but make it more cumbersome for new players or people who simply don't play very often to play on an ever-changing map pool. Top level Korean pros wouldn't give a shit one way or the other cuz they know the maps well enough anyways. Players who have taken the time to develop their knowledge of wall-ins, expansion patterns, and all the other tricky nuances of learning maps over a long period of time would still have those skills, and having the minimap revealed in dark FoW from the get-go wouldn't trivialize the time spent developing those skills one bit. It would have no detrimental effect on any level play, and it would remove a needless barrier of entry for new players That alone should be reason enough for a change in a game like BW that desperately needs new blood. It might not be "broken", but it is absolutely something that could be better without having any negative impact on anyone's gameplay experience.
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i agree with getting rid of fow
one of the few changes that raises the skill floor without lowering the skill ceiling
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On May 21 2018 20:19 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 10:01 B-royal wrote:All black is good. It gives a clear distinction between parts of the map you've scouted, and parts you haven't. This makes it easier for people to realize the possibility of a hidden expansion, or the location of a cheese. On May 21 2018 09:32 niteReloaded wrote:On May 21 2018 08:23 Gorgonoth wrote:
How is extremely intimate map memorization not a skill? This is the dictionary definition of skill: The ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance If player A knows Fighting Spirit so well that he basically has a map in his head without even having to look at the minimap, down to the trees and small doo-dads, then he has a skill. Removing the black fog of war means that it is easier for people to memorize maps and think about bases their opponents has. I'm not saying that knowing a map is a crucial or even really impressive skill, but to blanketly say it isn't a skill is preposterous.
I also totally agree with starecat, seeing the minimap is a visual aid that keeps people thinking about hidden expansions and whatnot.
Also placing buildings in places you can't see is actually quite a big deal.
I would not want these things go away, because removing skils is one of the primary reasons I dislike SC2 in comparison with BW. Introducing custom hotkeys also removed a skill facet. Some players had better hand coordination, and spent hours practicing macroing patterns. I don't see anyone complaining about it now.Of course there's skill to both. But we could introduce a bunch of other, retarded, skill facets that wouldn't at all make BW a better game. So there's no point in assuming that BW is as good of a game due to ALL of it's current characteristics. There's room for improvement to the current system of FOW. On the other hand, placing buildings on unexplored territory is a solid candidate for an argument against making it completely SC2 like. Rofl. You expect people to keep complaining for years about something they can't change any more? Most likely the people that hate the custom hotkeys, like myself, refuse to use them, and possibly refuse to play with people that use them. I personally would like to be part of the second group as well, but that would mean I would never be able to play ladder. Not that I'm playing the game much anyway, maybe 5 games every 5 months. I've got Blizzard to thank for that! Ok, I admit poor argument by me. When you say you got Blizzard to thank for not playing, you can't mean the custom hotkeys? :/
No, custom hotkeys actually didn't have anything to do with it. I disliked the choice, but it doesn't really affect my playing experience. The times I've played I don't even think about the fact that other people could be using custom hotkeys.
Unfortunately I find the remaster to be not where it should have been, and I think it is not unreasonable of me to say so. There were plenty of features advertised to be included at launch, that still don't even seem to be on the horizon 8+ months after release. This should be inexcusable on its own. But furthermore, the release has been quite buggy, and is missing a lot of modern features that I expected to be included. I can elaborate on this if you're interested.
Also back on topic. I don't want this to change at all because a black minimap actually helps me a lot. It reminds me which places I have not scouted in case I'm suspicious of something fishy going on, or in case my opponent must have a hidden base somewhere.
Also the only reason I can see to remove it is an argument out of laziness. There's nothing stopping you at all from loading up the map once in single player and typing "black sheep wall" and having a look around.
In fact, do you really think that you have any chance of winning a game on a map you've never played before, regardless of whether you now know where the minerals are? It takes genuine practice to be able to play well on a map.
In any case, don't force your preferences on anyone else. Optional? Acceptable. Mandatory? 
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On May 25 2018 06:33 B-royal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 20:19 niteReloaded wrote:On May 21 2018 10:01 B-royal wrote:All black is good. It gives a clear distinction between parts of the map you've scouted, and parts you haven't. This makes it easier for people to realize the possibility of a hidden expansion, or the location of a cheese. On May 21 2018 09:32 niteReloaded wrote:On May 21 2018 08:23 Gorgonoth wrote:
How is extremely intimate map memorization not a skill? This is the dictionary definition of skill: The ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance If player A knows Fighting Spirit so well that he basically has a map in his head without even having to look at the minimap, down to the trees and small doo-dads, then he has a skill. Removing the black fog of war means that it is easier for people to memorize maps and think about bases their opponents has. I'm not saying that knowing a map is a crucial or even really impressive skill, but to blanketly say it isn't a skill is preposterous.
I also totally agree with starecat, seeing the minimap is a visual aid that keeps people thinking about hidden expansions and whatnot.
Also placing buildings in places you can't see is actually quite a big deal.
I would not want these things go away, because removing skils is one of the primary reasons I dislike SC2 in comparison with BW. Introducing custom hotkeys also removed a skill facet. Some players had better hand coordination, and spent hours practicing macroing patterns. I don't see anyone complaining about it now.Of course there's skill to both. But we could introduce a bunch of other, retarded, skill facets that wouldn't at all make BW a better game. So there's no point in assuming that BW is as good of a game due to ALL of it's current characteristics. There's room for improvement to the current system of FOW. On the other hand, placing buildings on unexplored territory is a solid candidate for an argument against making it completely SC2 like. Rofl. You expect people to keep complaining for years about something they can't change any more? Most likely the people that hate the custom hotkeys, like myself, refuse to use them, and possibly refuse to play with people that use them. I personally would like to be part of the second group as well, but that would mean I would never be able to play ladder. Not that I'm playing the game much anyway, maybe 5 games every 5 months. I've got Blizzard to thank for that! Ok, I admit poor argument by me. When you say you got Blizzard to thank for not playing, you can't mean the custom hotkeys? :/ No, custom hotkeys actually didn't have anything to do with it. I disliked the choice, but it doesn't really affect my playing experience. The times I've played I don't even think about the fact that other people could be using custom hotkeys. Unfortunately I find the remaster to be not where it should have been, and I think it is not unreasonable of me to say so. There were plenty of features advertised to be included at launch, that still don't even seem to be on the horizon 8+ months after release. This should be inexcusable on its own. But furthermore, the release has been quite buggy, and is missing a lot of modern features that I expected to be included. I can elaborate on this if you're interested. Also back on topic. I don't want this to change at all because a black minimap actually helps me a lot. It reminds me which places I have not scouted in case I'm suspicious of something fishy going on, or in case my opponent must have a hidden base somewhere. Also the only reason I can see to remove it is an argument out of laziness. There's nothing stopping you at all from loading up the map once in single player and typing "black sheep wall" and having a look around. In fact, do you really think that you have any chance of winning a game on a map you've never played before, regardless of whether you now know where the minerals are? It takes genuine practice to be able to play well on a map. In any case, don't force your preferences on anyone else. Optional? Acceptable. Mandatory?
This is funny, people said the exact opposite: Black minimap helps hiding a base/proxy. And it would be sooo sad if proxy or hidden bases would become less successful. So does it help or doesnt it? It sure cant be both. And if your argument is the correct one, that would lower the skill ceiling. Which should be unacceptable. So what is it? And if both arguments are just preference, why not make it an option?
By the way, thanks for forcing your "english-hotkeys-only allowed" on the rest of the world. Or do you want every language only matched against each other?
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I also think about this frequently now coming back to Remastered, and I think this is a great idea for both new and old players both.
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EPT
