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On May 25 2018 07:44 10dla wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2018 06:33 B-royal wrote:On May 21 2018 20:19 niteReloaded wrote:On May 21 2018 10:01 B-royal wrote:All black is good. It gives a clear distinction between parts of the map you've scouted, and parts you haven't. This makes it easier for people to realize the possibility of a hidden expansion, or the location of a cheese. On May 21 2018 09:32 niteReloaded wrote:On May 21 2018 08:23 Gorgonoth wrote:
How is extremely intimate map memorization not a skill? This is the dictionary definition of skill: The ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance If player A knows Fighting Spirit so well that he basically has a map in his head without even having to look at the minimap, down to the trees and small doo-dads, then he has a skill. Removing the black fog of war means that it is easier for people to memorize maps and think about bases their opponents has. I'm not saying that knowing a map is a crucial or even really impressive skill, but to blanketly say it isn't a skill is preposterous.
I also totally agree with starecat, seeing the minimap is a visual aid that keeps people thinking about hidden expansions and whatnot.
Also placing buildings in places you can't see is actually quite a big deal.
I would not want these things go away, because removing skils is one of the primary reasons I dislike SC2 in comparison with BW. Introducing custom hotkeys also removed a skill facet. Some players had better hand coordination, and spent hours practicing macroing patterns. I don't see anyone complaining about it now.Of course there's skill to both. But we could introduce a bunch of other, retarded, skill facets that wouldn't at all make BW a better game. So there's no point in assuming that BW is as good of a game due to ALL of it's current characteristics. There's room for improvement to the current system of FOW. On the other hand, placing buildings on unexplored territory is a solid candidate for an argument against making it completely SC2 like. Rofl. You expect people to keep complaining for years about something they can't change any more? Most likely the people that hate the custom hotkeys, like myself, refuse to use them, and possibly refuse to play with people that use them. I personally would like to be part of the second group as well, but that would mean I would never be able to play ladder. Not that I'm playing the game much anyway, maybe 5 games every 5 months. I've got Blizzard to thank for that! Ok, I admit poor argument by me. When you say you got Blizzard to thank for not playing, you can't mean the custom hotkeys? :/ No, custom hotkeys actually didn't have anything to do with it. I disliked the choice, but it doesn't really affect my playing experience. The times I've played I don't even think about the fact that other people could be using custom hotkeys. Unfortunately I find the remaster to be not where it should have been, and I think it is not unreasonable of me to say so. There were plenty of features advertised to be included at launch, that still don't even seem to be on the horizon 8+ months after release. This should be inexcusable on its own. But furthermore, the release has been quite buggy, and is missing a lot of modern features that I expected to be included. I can elaborate on this if you're interested. Also back on topic. I don't want this to change at all because a black minimap actually helps me a lot. It reminds me which places I have not scouted in case I'm suspicious of something fishy going on, or in case my opponent must have a hidden base somewhere. Also the only reason I can see to remove it is an argument out of laziness. There's nothing stopping you at all from loading up the map once in single player and typing "black sheep wall" and having a look around. In fact, do you really think that you have any chance of winning a game on a map you've never played before, regardless of whether you now know where the minerals are? It takes genuine practice to be able to play well on a map. In any case, don't force your preferences on anyone else. Optional? Acceptable. Mandatory?  This is funny, people said the exact opposite: Black minimap helps hiding a base/proxy. And it would be sooo sad if proxy or hidden bases would become less successful. So does it help or doesnt it? It sure cant be both. And if your argument is the correct one, that would lower the skill ceiling. Which should be unacceptable. So what is it? And if both arguments are just preference, why not make it an option? By the way, thanks for forcing your "english-hotkeys-only allowed" on the rest of the world. Or do you want every language only matched against each other?
Your arguments or reasoning never make any sense. Yes it can be both. It's not exactly a global truth or anything, it can be dependent on the person that's playing. Some people even play with an all-black minimap to supposedly see enemy units (drops for example) more easily. Guess what, I don't find that easier with a black minimap, another personal preference hmm.
Also, yes in a sport you generally want there to be global standards, and I consider hotkeys to be one part of mastering the game, as did almost everyone for the past 18 years. In any professional tournament (i.e. Korean tournament), English hotkeys seems to have been the standard. In fact, if I were a tournament organizer, I would even demand for QWERTY to be the lay-out that has to be used by everyone.
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On May 21 2018 12:43 10dla wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 12:28 Djabanete wrote:
Pre-explored map is...
(*) Good for new players (won't lose workers in weird corners of the map, will more easily see strategic options)
(*) Bad for spectators (shape of revealed area reflects the course of the game so far)
(*) Irrelevant for pros
Therefore, I'd support it as an option for the game host, which should likely be set to "no" in tournament games. I'd use it in casual games. ASL uses Starcraft 2 minimap settings for months. It cant be that bad, otherwise they or Blizzard would have changed it by now. Or have you seen negative feedback on that one in here?
It's amazing how I didn't consciously notice the pre-explored map in the ASL broadcasts but nonetheless took advantage of the feature to show my wife map features and expansion locations that would otherwise have been blacked out. I revise my opinion:
(*) Good for new players
(*) Good for spectators
(*) Irrelevant for pros
Sounds good to me.
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On May 26 2018 01:00 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 12:43 10dla wrote:On May 21 2018 12:28 Djabanete wrote:
Pre-explored map is...
(*) Good for new players (won't lose workers in weird corners of the map, will more easily see strategic options)
(*) Bad for spectators (shape of revealed area reflects the course of the game so far)
(*) Irrelevant for pros
Therefore, I'd support it as an option for the game host, which should likely be set to "no" in tournament games. I'd use it in casual games. ASL uses Starcraft 2 minimap settings for months. It cant be that bad, otherwise they or Blizzard would have changed it by now. Or have you seen negative feedback on that one in here? It's amazing how I didn't consciously notice the pre-explored map in the ASL broadcasts but nonetheless took advantage of the feature to show my wife map features and expansion locations that would otherwise have been blacked out. I revise my opinion: (*) Good for new players (*) Good for spectators (*) Irrelevant for pros Sounds good to me.
the observer shows the pre-explored map but what about the players? I always assumed it was the original blacked out map for players.
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On May 26 2018 01:07 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2018 01:00 Djabanete wrote:On May 21 2018 12:43 10dla wrote:On May 21 2018 12:28 Djabanete wrote:
Pre-explored map is...
(*) Good for new players (won't lose workers in weird corners of the map, will more easily see strategic options)
(*) Bad for spectators (shape of revealed area reflects the course of the game so far)
(*) Irrelevant for pros
Therefore, I'd support it as an option for the game host, which should likely be set to "no" in tournament games. I'd use it in casual games. ASL uses Starcraft 2 minimap settings for months. It cant be that bad, otherwise they or Blizzard would have changed it by now. Or have you seen negative feedback on that one in here? It's amazing how I didn't consciously notice the pre-explored map in the ASL broadcasts but nonetheless took advantage of the feature to show my wife map features and expansion locations that would otherwise have been blacked out. I revise my opinion: (*) Good for new players (*) Good for spectators (*) Irrelevant for pros Sounds good to me. the observer shows the pre-explored map but what about the players? I always assumed it was the original blacked out map for players.
You are able to communicate with them in a non awkward way. You could dig for some information
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On May 26 2018 00:31 B-royal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2018 07:44 10dla wrote:On May 25 2018 06:33 B-royal wrote:On May 21 2018 20:19 niteReloaded wrote:On May 21 2018 10:01 B-royal wrote:All black is good. It gives a clear distinction between parts of the map you've scouted, and parts you haven't. This makes it easier for people to realize the possibility of a hidden expansion, or the location of a cheese. On May 21 2018 09:32 niteReloaded wrote:On May 21 2018 08:23 Gorgonoth wrote:
How is extremely intimate map memorization not a skill? This is the dictionary definition of skill: The ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance If player A knows Fighting Spirit so well that he basically has a map in his head without even having to look at the minimap, down to the trees and small doo-dads, then he has a skill. Removing the black fog of war means that it is easier for people to memorize maps and think about bases their opponents has. I'm not saying that knowing a map is a crucial or even really impressive skill, but to blanketly say it isn't a skill is preposterous.
I also totally agree with starecat, seeing the minimap is a visual aid that keeps people thinking about hidden expansions and whatnot.
Also placing buildings in places you can't see is actually quite a big deal.
I would not want these things go away, because removing skils is one of the primary reasons I dislike SC2 in comparison with BW. Introducing custom hotkeys also removed a skill facet. Some players had better hand coordination, and spent hours practicing macroing patterns. I don't see anyone complaining about it now.Of course there's skill to both. But we could introduce a bunch of other, retarded, skill facets that wouldn't at all make BW a better game. So there's no point in assuming that BW is as good of a game due to ALL of it's current characteristics. There's room for improvement to the current system of FOW. On the other hand, placing buildings on unexplored territory is a solid candidate for an argument against making it completely SC2 like. Rofl. You expect people to keep complaining for years about something they can't change any more? Most likely the people that hate the custom hotkeys, like myself, refuse to use them, and possibly refuse to play with people that use them. I personally would like to be part of the second group as well, but that would mean I would never be able to play ladder. Not that I'm playing the game much anyway, maybe 5 games every 5 months. I've got Blizzard to thank for that! Ok, I admit poor argument by me. When you say you got Blizzard to thank for not playing, you can't mean the custom hotkeys? :/ No, custom hotkeys actually didn't have anything to do with it. I disliked the choice, but it doesn't really affect my playing experience. The times I've played I don't even think about the fact that other people could be using custom hotkeys. Unfortunately I find the remaster to be not where it should have been, and I think it is not unreasonable of me to say so. There were plenty of features advertised to be included at launch, that still don't even seem to be on the horizon 8+ months after release. This should be inexcusable on its own. But furthermore, the release has been quite buggy, and is missing a lot of modern features that I expected to be included. I can elaborate on this if you're interested. Also back on topic. I don't want this to change at all because a black minimap actually helps me a lot. It reminds me which places I have not scouted in case I'm suspicious of something fishy going on, or in case my opponent must have a hidden base somewhere. Also the only reason I can see to remove it is an argument out of laziness. There's nothing stopping you at all from loading up the map once in single player and typing "black sheep wall" and having a look around. In fact, do you really think that you have any chance of winning a game on a map you've never played before, regardless of whether you now know where the minerals are? It takes genuine practice to be able to play well on a map. In any case, don't force your preferences on anyone else. Optional? Acceptable. Mandatory? This is funny, people said the exact opposite: Black minimap helps hiding a base/proxy. And it would be sooo sad if proxy or hidden bases would become less successful. So does it help or doesnt it? It sure cant be both. And if your argument is the correct one, that would lower the skill ceiling. Which should be unacceptable. So what is it? And if both arguments are just preference, why not make it an option? By the way, thanks for forcing your "english-hotkeys-only allowed" on the rest of the world. Or do you want every language only matched against each other? Your arguments or reasoning never make any sense. Yes it can be both. It's not exactly a global truth or anything, it can be dependent on the person that's playing. Some people even play with an all-black minimap to supposedly see enemy units (drops for example) more easily. Guess what, I don't find that easier with a black minimap, another personal preference hmm. Also, yes in a sport you generally want there to be global standards, and I consider hotkeys to be one part of mastering the game, as did almost everyone for the past 18 years. In any professional tournament (i.e. Korean tournament), English hotkeys seems to have been the standard. In fact, if I were a tournament organizer, I would even demand for QWERTY to be the lay-out that has to be used by everyone.
Are you gonna call me a cheater again for using a qwertz keyboard and german hotkeys?
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On May 21 2018 04:19 BisuDagger wrote:
The SC2 solution is a great one imo. I play SC2 occasionally and am glad I don't have to memorize all the expansions. It gives nothing away by having the fog of war semi-transparency version.
User was warned for this post
What the ??? Why was he warned for this post?
Do some mods just hate when people have opinions about things? I seriously just don't understand.
If you disagree with something he said enough to warn him. How about responding to him like a regular person would.
Nothing seemed wrong with this post.
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Croatia9530 Posts
On May 26 2018 19:55 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 04:19 BisuDagger wrote:
The SC2 solution is a great one imo. I play SC2 occasionally and am glad I don't have to memorize all the expansions. It gives nothing away by having the fog of war semi-transparency version.
User was warned for this post What the ??? Why was he warned for this post? Do some mods just hate when people have opinions about things? I seriously just don't understand. If you disagree with something he said enough to warn him. How about responding to him like a regular person would. Nothing seemed wrong with this post.
It was a joke bro, relax.
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Japan11286 Posts
On May 26 2018 19:55 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2018 04:19 BisuDagger wrote:
The SC2 solution is a great one imo. I play SC2 occasionally and am glad I don't have to memorize all the expansions. It gives nothing away by having the fog of war semi-transparency version.
User was warned for this post What the ??? Why was he warned for this post? Do some mods just hate when people have opinions about things? I seriously just don't understand. If you disagree with something he said enough to warn him. How about responding to him like a regular person would. Nothing seemed wrong with this post.
It's an inside joke lol
My take is that aside from aiding new players ease into the game, removing or keeping the fog of war doesn't really change the skill level in any significant way. Either way, a way to turn it of would be a nice addtional option but for various reasons (aesthetics, status quo appeal etc), professional or serious matches should retain it. (It's not like pros need to see through the terrain through the fog)
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Warned for playing SC2, valid reason IMO.
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EPT
