EPTlets rip fish and iccup so i can play custom games in remastered hahahahaha. yeah i never thought about it but im a good joker.
Patch 1.21.3 - Page 5
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6965 Posts
lets rip fish and iccup so i can play custom games in remastered hahahahaha. yeah i never thought about it but im a good joker. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2042 Posts
As for the patch, I agree it probably did more bad than good. We already had better latency settings while ago, like when you were playing Koreans on TR-14-16 on high latency. That was fine. As for custom games, I mentioned this already twice, there two primary issues. One is "Unable to join" error. Second is game sometimes just becomes very laggy and there is no explanation to what happens (seen that myself and also on a recent Flash vod where they just have to restart a game) Nevertheless, I really admire the heavy work you guys from Blizzard are doing. I understand it's not easy to develop things on the legacy platform and I think you are doing a tremendeus job keeping the development on the run and trying to achieve the balance between different, very often contradictory expectations of community. | ||
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ZZZero.O
Poland1605 Posts
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Sero
United States692 Posts
On February 13 2018 07:20 Matt Sherman wrote: Hi all We are releasing hotfix patch 1.21.3.3612 to fix Korean IME input for Windows 10 version 1709. The hotfix worked, thanks. | ||
GrantTheAnt
7 Posts
This is a probably a good point to talk about the changes to the matchmaker. It was quite a large algorithmic change to the MM, which was done after consultation with a range of players - from the everyday players through to Korean pros. Let's back up a step and talk about the constraints of a SC matchmaker: LATENCY: "I want matches that permit TR16 low latency" QUEUE TIME: "I don't want to wait more than 30s for a match" MMR: "I want matches at the same MMR as me" REMATCH: "I don't want to play the same player twice" Now, in a game with a huge concurrency (like Hearthstone for example), we can achieve all 4 of those for the most part. In BW/SCR, outside of Korea, we need to be realistic about what's achievable and make sure we're concentrating on the important constraint. Outside of Korea, we can achieve probably one of these constraints, maybe two, depending on region. The feedback we had from the previous matchmaker was "we'd rather play much better/worse opponents if it means playing on TR16, and we'd rather not wait forever for a match". Although we cannot guarantee a TR16 game, I believe we have now delivered on the spirit of this request. We can of course continue to tweak, but we need to be realistic about the ask. Currently, we try to honor the first 3 constraints in the order listed above. I believe latency should remain first, which means we could tweak the other two. If we reversed the other two, we'd be saying "I want to play as low latency/high TR as possible with a similar MMR opponent. I'm prepared to queue as long as necessary for this." (And in some regions, in high MMR scenarios, this queue time could be 30 minutes or more, since we're essentially waiting for an appropriate player to logon). That being said, as always I welcome community feedback, so feel free to discuss and we can continue to tweak. On other issues - we're investigating the failure to join custom games. There's no repro from QA yet but it's under investigation. And as Matt said, we hotfixed the Korean input issue with the latest Windows version. Since this is the second Windows change that has affected Korean IME in recent months, we've also reached out to Microsoft to better understand the changes they're making in that area that may affect us in future. Thanks again for your continued support and passion for SC! | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1508 Posts
I think system we had before was better than current matchmaking. The recent change just made matchmaking worse since MMR ranges got pretty huge. I know with foreign playerbase amount, sacrifice has to be made somewhere, but limiting search MMR range to around ~150 would be nice for us. Right now, it can matched up incredibly wide range of mmr, which isn't very good since as currently, 200 MMR is rather sizable difference in skill level already. Maybe for people after certain mmr, or after some time searched, the MMR search range can be widened. But regular people, anything above 200MMR difference would make it very unfair. I'd much rather que for extra minute or two than match up against people with too much of mmr difference than I am. On lag, ideally, it will be matched up against 16 TR, but playing below certain turn rates, such as 8 or lower, isn't great experience for either side. I would think TR10-12 should be minimal expected for a great game. Will there be anything in addition to clan/guild system in remastered? That feature seems to be sorely left out in remastered and not yet mentioned at all. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
As long as I still see them actively listening and trying to find good solutions, I'll continue to have hope the overall RM product will eventually become a situation we gained more than we lost. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12040 Posts
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dark.matter
179 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On February 14 2018 04:13 dark.matter wrote: I think a safe idea going forward should be this: If the winning player is not likely to get an appreciable amount of points, then the deviation between their mmr was too high in the first place.I don't think the MMR range is a monster issue as long as their is some kind of max range (+- 200) and even adjustable in settings. The biggest complaint is lack of points from MMR differences, which I have no idea how that could solved. Winning +0 on a game is demotivating at best. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1508 Posts
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littlechava
United States7221 Posts
On February 14 2018 03:52 GrantTheAnt wrote: Hi guys, This is a probably a good point to talk about the changes to the matchmaker. It was quite a large algorithmic change to the MM, which was done after consultation with a range of players - from the everyday players through to Korean pros. Let's back up a step and talk about the constraints of a SC matchmaker: LATENCY: "I want matches that permit TR16 low latency" QUEUE TIME: "I don't want to wait more than 30s for a match" MMR: "I want matches at the same MMR as me" REMATCH: "I don't want to play the same player twice" Now, in a game with a huge concurrency (like Hearthstone for example), we can achieve all 4 of those for the most part. In BW/SCR, outside of Korea, we need to be realistic about what's achievable and make sure we're concentrating on the important constraint. Outside of Korea, we can achieve probably one of these constraints, maybe two, depending on region. The feedback we had from the previous matchmaker was "we'd rather play much better/worse opponents if it means playing on TR16, and we'd rather not wait forever for a match". Although we cannot guarantee a TR16 game, I believe we have now delivered on the spirit of this request. We can of course continue to tweak, but we need to be realistic about the ask. Currently, we try to honor the first 3 constraints in the order listed above. I believe latency should remain first, which means we could tweak the other two. If we reversed the other two, we'd be saying "I want to play as low latency/high TR as possible with a similar MMR opponent. I'm prepared to queue as long as necessary for this." (And in some regions, in high MMR scenarios, this queue time could be 30 minutes or more, since we're essentially waiting for an appropriate player to logon). That being said, as always I welcome community feedback, so feel free to discuss and we can continue to tweak. On other issues - we're investigating the failure to join custom games. There's no repro from QA yet but it's under investigation. And as Matt said, we hotfixed the Korean input issue with the latest Windows version. Since this is the second Windows change that has affected Korean IME in recent months, we've also reached out to Microsoft to better understand the changes they're making in that area that may affect us in future. Thanks again for your continued support and passion for SC! There absolutely needs to be a hard cap to the mmr range a player can get in a match. Any time you see players getting matched with players hundreds of mmr apart from them, resulting in a shitty game for both players and a net gain of 0 mmr for the winner, in my eyes, you no longer have a functioning ladder. All the rest is great, but without this, it isn't even a ladder any longer. | ||
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kaboombaby
United States90 Posts
Chiming in from the lower end experience. I played something like 100 games with the new system. Everytime a game got more than 200-220 point mmr difference I just felt like apologizing to my opponents for having wasted their time. The games just stop being meaningful, I could blind counter their opener hit all my macro timiings (relative to my normal execution) and still lose. Thankfully looking over my starlog.gg these seem to occur only ~1/10 matches. Little lower and I think we'd be in a pretty good spot, never would be ideal. | ||
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littlechava
United States7221 Posts
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-Debaser-
United States329 Posts
I didn't mind having some turn rate 8 or 10 games sprinkled in if it meant a COMPETITIVE ladder. Whats the point of even queuing up for ladder now when you can face someone 300+ MMR below you? It's not even a matchmaking system at the moment. Yesterday I had a game at 1900MMR where I got +1 point for a win (vs a 1300MMR player). This was a terrible experience and waste of time for both of us. It's like putting a high school kid into an NFL game. As Dazed said, matchmaking for any competitive players outside of Korea has been ruined by this change. Me and many other players will/have quit ladder because whats the point now? | ||
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nbaker
United States1341 Posts
On February 14 2018 03:52 GrantTheAnt wrote: Hi guys, This is a probably a good point to talk about the changes to the matchmaker. It was quite a large algorithmic change to the MM, which was done after consultation with a range of players - from the everyday players through to Korean pros. Let's back up a step and talk about the constraints of a SC matchmaker: LATENCY: "I want matches that permit TR16 low latency" QUEUE TIME: "I don't want to wait more than 30s for a match" MMR: "I want matches at the same MMR as me" REMATCH: "I don't want to play the same player twice" Now, in a game with a huge concurrency (like Hearthstone for example), we can achieve all 4 of those for the most part. In BW/SCR, outside of Korea, we need to be realistic about what's achievable and make sure we're concentrating on the important constraint. Outside of Korea, we can achieve probably one of these constraints, maybe two, depending on region. The feedback we had from the previous matchmaker was "we'd rather play much better/worse opponents if it means playing on TR16, and we'd rather not wait forever for a match". Although we cannot guarantee a TR16 game, I believe we have now delivered on the spirit of this request. We can of course continue to tweak, but we need to be realistic about the ask. Currently, we try to honor the first 3 constraints in the order listed above. I believe latency should remain first, which means we could tweak the other two. If we reversed the other two, we'd be saying "I want to play as low latency/high TR as possible with a similar MMR opponent. I'm prepared to queue as long as necessary for this." (And in some regions, in high MMR scenarios, this queue time could be 30 minutes or more, since we're essentially waiting for an appropriate player to logon). That being said, as always I welcome community feedback, so feel free to discuss and we can continue to tweak. On other issues - we're investigating the failure to join custom games. There's no repro from QA yet but it's under investigation. And as Matt said, we hotfixed the Korean input issue with the latest Windows version. Since this is the second Windows change that has affected Korean IME in recent months, we've also reached out to Microsoft to better understand the changes they're making in that area that may affect us in future. Thanks again for your continued support and passion for SC! This is not helpful at all. Yes, obviously all four of those factors need to be considered when matching with an opponent, but the current parameters are frankly quite bad. Personally, I don't mind playing a wider skill range of player, but there's a very clear point where one player has no chance to beat the other player. Obviously, your system is aware of this, as it gives 0 mmr gain for a victory by the favored player. I don't think anyone's asking to always match with people they have a 50% chance of beating, but the system does need hard cutoffs where two players will not match if the probability of one player winning (calculated by respective mmrs) is higher than a certain point. I don't know what that probability should be, but the current system has too many matches with near-zero probabilities of one player winning. Almost everyone I've talked to agrees that longer queue times and non-TR16 matches would be worth it to avoid these cases. | ||
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fazek42
Hungary438 Posts
On February 14 2018 04:32 -Debaser- wrote: Very sad about that Grant. The system before this change was better for most users outside of Korea. A huge MMR deviation(300+/-) is a complete waste of time for both players, if any of the dev team played ladder they would notice this. I didn't mind having some turn rate 8 or 10 games sprinkled in if it meant a COMPETITIVE ladder. Whats the point of even queuing up for ladder now when you can face someone 300+ MMR below you? It's not even a matchmaking system at the moment. Yesterday I had a game at 1900MMR where I got +1 point for a win (vs a 1300MMR player). This was a terrible experience and waste of time for both of us. It's like putting a high school kid into an NFL game. As Dazed said, matchmaking for any competitive players outside of Korea has been ruined by this change. Me and many other players will/have quit ladder because whats the point now? I can't help but agree with what everyone has been saying in unison | ||
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CobaltBlu
United States919 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6965 Posts
On February 14 2018 03:52 GrantTheAnt wrote: Hi guys, This is a probably a good point to talk about the changes to the matchmaker. It was quite a large algorithmic change to the MM, which was done after consultation with a range of players - from the everyday players through to Korean pros. Let's back up a step and talk about the constraints of a SC matchmaker: LATENCY: "I want matches that permit TR16 low latency" QUEUE TIME: "I don't want to wait more than 30s for a match" MMR: "I want matches at the same MMR as me" REMATCH: "I don't want to play the same player twice" Now, in a game with a huge concurrency (like Hearthstone for example), we can achieve all 4 of those for the most part. In BW/SCR, outside of Korea, we need to be realistic about what's achievable and make sure we're concentrating on the important constraint. Outside of Korea, we can achieve probably one of these constraints, maybe two, depending on region. The feedback we had from the previous matchmaker was "we'd rather play much better/worse opponents if it means playing on TR16, and we'd rather not wait forever for a match". Although we cannot guarantee a TR16 game, I believe we have now delivered on the spirit of this request. We can of course continue to tweak, but we need to be realistic about the ask. Currently, we try to honor the first 3 constraints in the order listed above. I believe latency should remain first, which means we could tweak the other two. If we reversed the other two, we'd be saying "I want to play as low latency/high TR as possible with a similar MMR opponent. I'm prepared to queue as long as necessary for this." (And in some regions, in high MMR scenarios, this queue time could be 30 minutes or more, since we're essentially waiting for an appropriate player to logon). That being said, as always I welcome community feedback, so feel free to discuss and we can continue to tweak. On other issues - we're investigating the failure to join custom games. There's no repro from QA yet but it's under investigation. And as Matt said, we hotfixed the Korean input issue with the latest Windows version. Since this is the second Windows change that has affected Korean IME in recent months, we've also reached out to Microsoft to better understand the changes they're making in that area that may affect us in future. Thanks again for your continued support and passion for SC! hello thanks for your answer, is there a chance you guys communicate with top foreigners ? cuz i have the feeling that the people you are talking with have unrealistic goals. We understand we cant have a perfect low lat TR16 games vs Korea or in most cases other countries,but a TR16 high latency can happen or tr14 high is very aceptable,2 patches ago the game was very stable but with the last patch that made the TUrn rate more smart problems started to appear,like the game dropping to TR10 TR8 (without reason)mb one spike and the game will drop like crazy,that is not normal,and now with the last patch that is looking for good latency as priority im facing 1600mmr players,and im a Max 2800 mmr player,as you can see this is not fun at all.and imho we are all divided for single fact that there are multiple latency options to pick,and we all have different opinions but when we played in 1.16 the normal was L2 with chaos launcher.anyway hope we can find a balance,but never never meet the unrealistic perfect latency,in BW it doesnt exist. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany912 Posts
I also don't need a match after 30s, I think most players who have higher MMR know that they sometimes need to wait a few minutes for a game, because that's how it has been for years. | ||
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