EPTI don't think he knows who Sero is
I also demand Sero gets invited! lol. Nice guy and good player all around. Could probably beat all those invited scrubs easy! Twitch StarCraft Holiday Bash - Page 7
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
I don't think he knows who Sero is I also demand Sero gets invited! lol. Nice guy and good player all around. Could probably beat all those invited scrubs easy! | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
On December 17 2017 07:03 Neobick wrote: Whiners, whiners, whiners. YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO SHIT! ORGANIZE YOUR OWN FUCKING EVENTS! lol. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
edit: wow this thread is the most active (and angry) the forum's ever been in a good while. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28553 Posts
On December 17 2017 02:55 B-royal wrote: If it's just about fun games and cultivating a sense of comradery, why does it need a prize pool of 6 000 dollars? This is clearly the reason why it stings for a lot of top foreigners. Yeah this is the entire issue. foreign bw 'dies' in 2009, some players keep playing, get to a higher level, keep competing, but pretty much no tournament has more than $100 prize pool for the following 7 years. Then SC:R is released, you get two events with $20000+ prize pools and another with $6k, but they end up inviting players who quit in 2009 and are clearly worse than ones who kept playing. I'm still gonna tune in for the event and enjoy it, but I totally get why eonzerg is disappointed - he gets to see players that are clearly worse than him win more than he has won in the past 6 years of gaming from one tournament, mostly just because they had a big name a long time ago. Stuff like 'boycott the event' or whatever seems entirely counter-productive and petty though, but I definitely sympathize and think it's kinda sad how the biggest prize pool events have had so many invites - and how the invites really have not corresponded with who the actual best players are. I mean one of my own most fun bw experiences was being invited to a tournament because I was a community favorite despite there clearly being better candidates from a skill pov, and I didn't really respond well to negativity towards that back then.. I'm happy there's cool content being produced and I don't want to join in on the negativity. But the fact is that with this tourney, post SC:R we're gonna have had 3 big tourneys for the nonkorean scene. Those three tourneys imo featured a grand total of 1 player who has consistently produced great results in nonkorean tournaments post-SC:R. (number would look slightly better if not for restrictive visa grants!  ) It's not ideal, and I think it would have been amazing if there could have been a tourney with equal stakes but where the players were chosen based on current skill levels. The thing is though, that attacking this event, or the zotac americup, or the italian esports event, that's just a really stupid way of showing your sympathy with the group of best-and-continuously-overlooked-players. If anything what you want to go for is as much exposure as possible for all brood war content so that the crowd hosting get inspired to keep it up, and then hope there ends up being some tourneys with equal prize pools but more spots for qualifiers.. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On December 17 2017 09:12 Peeano wrote: No interesting matches and a ton of nerd humor that isn't my cup of tea. I'll pass. + Show Spoiler + I'd actually much rather read a Nina blog. Whoa, don't insult them that hard. This is way over the line. Jesus. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On December 17 2017 03:45 NonY wrote: If you had already organized a merit-based tournament and it was coming soon, I'm sure it'd get some mentions during this event's stream and it'd massively benefit from this event. You could probably get retweets for your event from Day[9], iNc, Artosis, etc. Hhmh im skeptical about that: i personally worked on this Nation League, this second Nation League, this Koth series, these Promo Tour series. None were retweeted or supported, shout outed or whathaveyou by the people you are referring too. But let's look at the greater scheme of things beyond my incompetent attempts: where was the big support for the entire Teamliquid Legacy series? TLS 1 did not receive it in 2012 and TLS Champs didn't receive it in 2016. I could link many more, and yeah i kinda makes sense to me that Broodwar wasn't the focus of Tastosis, Day9,Incontrol or you when SC2 was still flourishing. But if those folks wanted to bring some viewership to Broodwar, why didn't they earlier i wonder? Well, let's not dwell on that. On December 17 2017 01:55 iNcontroL wrote: Artosis and I are working on a show that talks about sc2 and bw. The angry folk in here.. help me when it comes around to show case the new top bw foreigner talent. I will give them a spotlight and try and help them out. Maybe we can raise money for an event? Showmatches? I'm down. I'd love to give eon and others a place to shine. This event however is not that place. Sound good? This is actually a pretty great idea and i'd be happy to help out anyway i can if you really intend to give those players a place to shine. I'm suprised you haven't received more positive feedback for this offer tbh. I think you're sometimes bewildered why people don't show you the respect you think you earn? Well, reaching out in this way would earn you the accolades in the eyes of many "hardcore players" here i think.  I'd be down to hand you the 'purple heart with diamonds on a silver string' of BW-Elitists myself. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On December 17 2017 09:35 Liquid`Drone wrote: Yeah this is the entire issue. foreign bw 'dies' in 2009, some players keep playing, get to a higher level, keep competing, but pretty much no tournament has more than $100 prize pool for the following 7 years. Then SC:R is released, you get two events with $20000+ prize pools and another with $6k, but they end up inviting players who quit in 2009 and are clearly worse than ones who kept playing. I'm still gonna tune in for the event and enjoy it, but I totally get why eonzerg is disappointed - he gets to see players that are clearly worse than him win more than he has won in the past 6 years of gaming from one tournament, mostly just because they had a big name a long time ago. Stuff like 'boycott the event' or whatever seems entirely counter-productive and petty though, but I definitely sympathize and think it's kinda sad how the biggest prize pool events have had so many invites - and how the invites really have not corresponded with who the actual best players are. I mean one of my own most fun bw experiences was being invited to a tournament because I was a community favorite despite there clearly being better candidates from a skill pov, and I didn't really respond well to negativity towards that back then.. I'm happy there's cool content being produced and I don't want to join in on the negativity. But the fact is that with this tourney, post SC:R we're gonna have had 3 big tourneys for the nonkorean scene. Those three tourneys imo featured a grand total of 1 player who has consistently produced great results in nonkorean tournaments post-SC:R. (number would look slightly better if not for restrictive visa grants! ) It's not ideal, and I think it would have been amazing if there could have been a tourney with equal stakes but where the players were chosen based on current skill levels. The thing is though, that attacking this event, or the zotac americup, or the italian esports event, that's just a really stupid way of showing your sympathy with the group of best-and-continuously-overlooked-players. If anything what you want to go for is as much exposure as possible for all brood war content so that the crowd hosting get inspired to keep it up, and then hope there ends up being some tourneys with equal prize pools but more spots for qualifiers.. yeah boycotts are the wrong way to go. But at some point i just watch a foreigner stream because it gives me more enjoyment, if im looking for BW entertainment that day. Simple as that. | ||
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blunderfulguy
United States1415 Posts
On December 17 2017 09:02 Starlightsun wrote: lol all your posts are in SC2 forums except when you drop in here to lecture people. What the fuck do you care about BW and the community surrounding it? I'm sure you're excited about this event though given that it consists of almost all people who made their careers in SC2. Oh I get it, I'm not allowed to be a part of your toxic community, darn. | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
On December 17 2017 09:46 Cele wrote: yeah boycotts are the wrong way to go. But at some point i just watch a foreigner stream because it gives me more enjoyment, if im looking for BW entertainment that day. Simple as that. For me it's not so much a boycott as it is doing something else that I will enjoy more. I don't watch all brood war events. For instance, I don't particularly like sktl or CFC (do to their allowance of Koreans), but I watch when I can... And have nothing else to do. For ZOTAC I watched most of the event from mobile despite my other plans because I was interested in a major LAN that featured Hawk, DragOn and Michael. Players who actually had to show their merits in qualifiers and who deserved to be there. | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
On December 17 2017 09:35 Liquid`Drone wrote: The thing is though, that attacking this event, or the zotac americup, or the italian esports event, that's just a really stupid way of showing your sympathy with the group of best-and-continuously-overlooked-players. You forget that showing the world you care more about something is to hate on people who also care about the thing in the most crude way possible. If anything, the BW community made this behaviour an art of its own. It's the new "I'm vegan" or the new "I do crossfit" and way more 2018 than "ICCup admins are fascists". wow, now I kind of applaud the organizers for being the new targets. you go girls! | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
On December 17 2017 08:09 Incomplete..ReV wrote: If we were to move forward from here, what would be required to become more united as a whole? I feel most opinions have been voiced and that there's also come forth some suggestions as to what can be helpful. For instance, Qikz has made a pretty good point that all the "names" (f.ex. Day9) probably get so many requests for this or that, that simply asking for some retweets etc. doesn't necessarily lead to anything. However, iNcontroL has stated in this thread that he'd love to make sure more tournaments get some recognition. So regardless of how it's been before, regardless of whether "we've always been ignored" or anything like that, this discussion have brought forth a lot of good. Assuming we can choose to use what we have here and then move forward. To nudge the discussion towards cooperation. As I understand, both Qikz and Eywa- have/are arranging tournaments? And we also have Rus_Brain who might read this thread? Are there any others? As for the "names" in here, we have iNcontroL and Nony, at least. Are there others - silent or overlooked? Would it be possible to talk it over and have some sort of cooperation? Not necessarily any big commitments, but at least something that's new. Progress. For instance, send a shoutout and say "hey, I'm making this tour - can you give some exposure?". If there's some sort of network arranged, then the organizers can contact "names" willing to help out, who'll then create awareness - maybe even take part directly. If so, who'd be interested in something like that (from both sides)? Maybe someone in a good position could even try to connect the skill based tournaments with sponsors who can bring more money on the table? I fear if we keep going in circles, there won't be any progress - regardless of who's correct. When there's even some terminology used (f.ex. "oldboys club" etc.), the rethoric will get increasingly polarized and the division might become total. Please, for the love of Xel'Naga - break the circle! To be honest, I think incontrol (and artosis) is probably the best person to build trust there because everyone else that we're talking about (personalities) have 0 activity in the community. I think ZOTAC is a great example of a missed opportunity in this regard, none of the casters had any knowledge about the players, it's like they were nobodies... Yet Michael and DragOn are two of the most prominent figures since StarCraft 2. It's not that they would even have had to do a lot of research, the ZOTAC organization had gotten this information from community members, it was all there in an easy to read 1 page per player type thing. The thing is, there are great opportunities every day to get more involved and better understanding of the current scene, it's not just about giving shout outs to whoever asks or seems important either. I'd love to see some of the personalities from this co-casted with Sayle, or help get funding for events. As far as cooperation goes (from both sides), there's not much that I can offer other than my vocal support and assistance in knowledge about "new school" players. Tbh, anyone who wants to show their support for the new top level scene and people who've been involved in it kind of have to do it with no anticipated return... | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
That said, the Korean scene has been fairly good about trying to promote opportunities for new players so that the scene can survive if the current most popular players move on. (which is already happening with Bisu going to the military) And in the foreign scene, there are already many new (post SC2-era) players that are better than the most popular players, which isn't entirely true in Korea yet. So try to understand why people might be disappointed by this announcement instead of shitting on them, calling them ungrateful, etc. | ||
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sicklucker
Canada16987 Posts
On December 17 2017 05:01 puppykiller wrote: I feel like there is a sizable portion of the community (including myself) that don't really care about the old foreign BW scene. Many of us started playing BW a bit on the later side and played it all through the sc2 period despite the fact that the scene was barely alive. This means that our connection and interest to the scene was formed while all these various casters and personalities were away trying to be successful in sc2. I don't want to speak too much for others but at least for me personally, just seeing a handful of oldschool foreigners and personalities doesn't really have any appeal. It would be nice to see more content centered around the players who have been more recently relevant. ya your the large minority im sure | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On December 17 2017 10:48 GeckoXp wrote: "ICCup admins are fascists" We were, though. Remember that "Ideas For Oppressing The Community" thread we had going in the admin forum? Great times. | ||
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AManHasNoName
United States165 Posts
On December 17 2017 02:43 NonY wrote: Some really out-of-touch perspectives being revealed in these comments... Twitch has done and continues to do plenty of work for competitive, legit esports events. But Twitch is also about community and simply having fun playing games. This event is more of the latter despite the games being legit esports games. The audience looking for legit non-Korean BW competitions is so small now. There are more people who would like to be entertained by Day[9] and friends than people who are interested in seeing top foreigner BW players compete. If you're a fan of StarCraft, you should be happy that this event is StarCraft-themed rather than some other theme. I know it may seem like this event is misguided, but if that's how you feel, then the truth is that your preferences are in a very small minority and this event wasn't designed exactly for you. Top BW players: I absolutely respect your hobby and the skill you've achieved, but at some point you must be at peace with the fact that your dedication to BW means that you are playing the game you prefer rather than playing the most competitive game. It is silly to bemoan the fact that the people responsible for organizing successful events are not putting faith in "top foreigner BW tournament" as a hot item in 2017. If you truly seek competition, there are better games to play than BW. If you keep practicing and waiting, I'm sure something will come along for BW, but the scene is very unlikely to flourish. It never really did outside of Korea even before SC2, not in the way you're hoping it will now. I sincerely hope people continue to play BW competitively for their own fulfillment and enjoyment. But for the most talented players who continue to practice hard and hope for some kind of payoff or career in gaming, you ought to switch games. I wouldn't even suggest SC2. Play one of the actually big esports. If it's not about money and career, then organize your own competitions, just for the sake of fun and competition. That's what the people participating in this event did for years. The fact that is it essentially free to stream/broadcast an event now already puts you lightyears ahead of us back then. Hell, people were doing events before there were replays. The only way people heard about the games was from play-by-play reports written by observers. Look at this shit: http://classic.battle.net/scc/br/ A negative attitude toward events like this is not helpful. Events like this help foster a bigger potential audience for a serious tournament in the future. When it comes, if it's not successful, another event will be even less likely. You might be better off in the long run by having events like this first to set up the success of the event you want. Have a positive attitude and enjoy this event for what it is. I think it will be a lot of fun. I know most of you will have fun and it's just the vocal minority that want to have their voices heard in this thread. But I truly hope they can come around and enjoy this event too. edit: Just to be perfectly clear about my most pragmatic and useful advice for the people who want a purely merit-based foreigner BW event: It benefits you for this event to be as successful as possible. The success of this event increases the chances you get what you want. I know you're disappointed that this event isn't the event you want, but refusing to support it and having a negative attitude towards it does not help you! Your preferences are already known. You don't need to express your preferences via negative posts and boycotts. You need to build up interest in BW any way you can, including making this event a success. It is virtually inevitable that the event you want will happen and in the meantime you need to behave in a way that maximizes the chances of that event being a success when it does happen. Don't fill Twitch chat, etc, with negativity! Embrace everyone and whatever attention this event brings and plan for the future. This is an excellent post, these are obviously things you've spent time thinking about. And, the points you've made here are very similar to my thoughts. One thing I want to mention is: I truly respect everyone currently playing BW competitively. I watch eOn's stream extremely frequently and I try my best to support the community. I do hope for more competitive events to be hosted. But, I agree with NonY that the target audience for such an event is very small. Probably limited to TL posters or close to it at this point. If we want to get more people to watch, enjoy and appreciate BW, we need to show the FUN side of the game. Understanding and appreciating the skill that goes into BW isn't something that your average gamer can appreciate. A bunch of people laughing and having a good time and joking around with each other is something that will draw people in and interest them. It gives them something that might pique their interest in playing the game and draw them into the community. On the other hand, the kind of outrage that people are showing in this thread, after the Larva incident, in Twitch chat and on the bnet forums is the type of thing that will drive people away. I've loved Starcraft since it was released, I haven't played that whole time but it has always been a "part" of me (for lack of better terminology). And, despite how much I love the game and was enjoying it when it first came out, reading threads on Teamliquid in particular have pretty much caused me to lose all interest, purely due to the negativity of the community. If it's capable of having that kind of impact on someone who already loves the game, I hate to imagine what it would be like for someone who watches an event like this, or Zotac, enjoys it and wants to go converse with others who watched it, then stumbles into nothing but negativity and outrage. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On December 17 2017 13:14 AManHasNoName wrote: This is an excellent post, these are obviously things you've spent time thinking about. And, the points you've made here are very similar to my thoughts. One thing I want to mention is: I truly respect everyone currently playing BW competitively. I watch eOn's stream extremely frequently and I try my best to support the community. I do hope for more competitive events to be hosted. But, I agree with NonY that the target audience for such an event is very small. Probably limited to TL posters or close to it at this point. If we want to get more people to watch, enjoy and appreciate BW, we need to show the FUN side of the game. Understanding and appreciating the skill that goes into BW isn't something that your average gamer can appreciate. A bunch of people laughing and having a good time and joking around with each other is something that will draw people in and interest them. It gives them something that might pique their interest in playing the game and draw them into the community. You know what, you're right. When it comes down to it, StarCraft is just about having fun and community. I think when people just see a bunch of old friends coming together to play some friendly games, laugh, and just have a good time, it's going to bring them in. All this drama really isn't necessary. There will be more events in the future, and this is just a fun, end-of-the-year casual type of event and nobody should feel left out if On December 16 2017 08:51 GTR wrote: $6,000 prize pool. *drink spit* | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
If you want to maximize audience (not target friends of tl.net who aren't already at the event), then you could have C rank players and simply say "Day9 will be competing and commentating." That would get more viewers than current rendition. "Half the people" only even got into starcraft cause of day[9]. It's like being the bat boy for the Yankees and being like "this model involving myself is the ticket. It's 50% me, at least." Day[9] is the best American player ever (not factoring in unfair Korean adv for Idra). It's like having the 90's squad bulls comeback for a game, but Michael Jordan will only commentate it, while the role players of the 90's play. Tilting. Since I can't send pms: Day[9] is way too humble, imo, in terms of his skill, and others way overrate their ability in relation. Day[9] isn't just the best American, but by far the best non Korean I've ever played. The guy treated the game like rocket science, while other nerds were gleefully ignoring tons of flaws. It's really not a comparison. Even without going to Korea, he was still almost at the level of peak Idra. Aseem and Froz kinda moved on to other things before the skill level of everyone was all that high. Assem seemed like just another guy, outside of T vs Z. Froz... probably had as much potential as just about anyone. But, that's the problem: other things to do. | ||
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exkgb
United States504 Posts
Its the same reason why all the Marvel movies are making a killing, because they bring back comic book heros that we were emotionally attached to during our childhood, in IMAX 3D HD!!. Just like how these tournaments allows us to watch our foreigner heroes of the past (Nony, White-RA, Inc, Draco) compete in this brand new remastered game! I will definitely watch this to relive my old memories. If you want to watch the absolute best at the game duking it out (flash, bisu, larva..etc), watch ASL instead! | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10025 Posts
On December 17 2017 03:21 iNcontroL wrote: Thankfully reachthesky doesn't actually speak for the community. Can you imagine if he did? Woof! Anyways... gonna be fun. I'm going to stop trying to talk sense to people in this thread. At the end of the day if you really think we are bad people doing a bad thing no amount of typing in here will change that for you guys. I'm just gonna keep doing my thing.. like I have for the last 17 years. I don't think you or any of the other old names are bad people at all. But I do think that some of us, especially the ones who have put in a lot of time and effort to make a difference in the community and develop their talents, be it writing, casting, or playing, would get some recognition. To echo what Bisudagger said, some of the smaller casters like myself, Bisudagger, EsportsJohn, would just like some bits of push by those who are at the top. Something that stuck with me was from CM Punk from WWE, where he listed his grievances to management of how they didn't know what they were doing with talent. He was asking his bosses how people were supposed to get better if they weren't going to compete/work with those at the top. Otherwise, talent development is diminished. I suppose this might be something that people are a bit upset about, because if the same people are the ones who are always in the big events, then there's no room for the amateurs from being able to move upwards up the figurative ladder. As a note, I do respect all that you and the rest have done. It has been invaluable to the scene and basically allowed TL to get to where it is. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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