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On December 17 2017 04:53 playa wrote:
The way to actually promote BW is to show that it can pay to actually play the game. These tournaments just foster "you should have been there to buddy up. Too late, but hope you enjoy our entertainment."
I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's really indicative of what BW has always been about. I once qualified for the final 4 of a WCG qualifer. There was no bracket or time given out, yet. Sheth and Nyoken decided to "MAKE THEIR OWN BRACKET" and time up, and not inform me and the other guy (non old boys club member). They just played against each other to decide who would go to the USA finals...
The final 4 was supposed to be randomized; ie., no way to know who you should be playing until the admin made the bracket. It was the biggest joke to ever happen in esports. But, since it benefited the "old guard," it was viewed as the most legit thing ever. Totally normal and kosher. That's the kind of power that tl.net wielded over tournaments and the community. They do w/e they feel like, and if you're not apart of the buddy system, then you're a noob compared to us and you don't even deserve to play in things you qualified for.
When I think of SC 2, the only time that ever seemed worth playing was when practically every country had their own WCS. Argentina, Brazil, etc, etc. Unfortunately, when things aren't done properly or there stops being enough money for it, then you end up with this and trying to twist how what benefits the same people, over and over, is actually for a broader good.
I'm not trying to hate. Just, I can understand why the "new age" people could feel a certain way. At the end of the day, if people like Nony actually had a reason to play BW, then he would qualify, anyways.
BW is pretty much just propaganda, though. My friends are funnier than the rest. They're better players. Better personalities. We leak rainbows, thus... ofc all of the events are for us. It's a monopoly where the unknown or non buddy is just treated as inferior. GL to those who play now.
Truth bombs right here. Message to Twitch-Just remember that this formula for running the scene provides no incentives for people to play the game or even promote it. It only benefits the oldboy's club and does not benefit the community on a greater scale. All this manages to do is make others feel like outsiders and not apart of the community. This is why new blood is few and far between. This causes the community to shrink and ultimately caused people not to want to tune in. This is just one of the huge contributing factors as to why the SC2 scene plateaued after being into existence for 2 years. You know what they say though, those who choose to ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
Remember, Businesses thrive when they are inclusive. Excluding the community is not good for business.
It would have been best to run an event where a small selection of the most popular personalities were commentating the event with the rest of the event open to everyone to compete in. The personalities who are commentating draw in the viewership and everyone gets to participate. It's a win/win situation.
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I'm guessing Bonyth, Eonzerg, Sziky, Dewalt, Trutacz etc weren't invited due to budget related reasons. (Cost of flights mostly?) Aren't Jaeyun, Nony and KawaiiRice all in the SoCal area? If so, that would help further confirm my previous thought.
No offense to those three, but I would have much rather seen Michael and Dragon invited due to their recent performances in Zotac. I watch and support a lot of BW streams but I'm not so sure I'll be tuning into this. I've been around since 1998 Starcraft Vanilla, and while I enjoy most of the comedy that the old school casters/players bring to the table, I have no interest in watching them play. The skill level just isn't there... Artosis is the most active out of all of the old schoolers and it's hard to watch him battle it out against 2000 MMR players. Draco would be the only reason for me to tune into this.
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On December 17 2017 03:45 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 03:12 ReachTheSky wrote:
If this event is successful, it's only going to urge twitch to continue to support the oldboys club. That's not what the scene wants. The scene wants real competition and EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Watching the same old people gets stale extremely fast. Players should have to constantly fight to retain their status. The pie is limited. Drowning out everyone else by limiting events to the old boys club does not grow the scene. The only purpose that behavior serves is to protect the status for those within the old boys club and line their pockets from sponsors. Supporting this event goes against everything the scene wants. I love BW but I cannot support this event.
Edit: This "event" is nothing more than a promotional event for the individuals listed. There are plenty of other sponsors out there besides Twitch. So what if all of Twitch's BW events are like this? It keeps interest in BW alive. You sound like the hardcore sports fans who think that resources going to fantasy is somehow bad for sports. If all the fantasy shows, web sites, social media buzz, etc, didn't exist, all those resources wouldn't be going to the sports instead. Fantasy draws in people who otherwise wouldn't have watched the sport at all and it prevents people from not watching when they've lost interest in the sport itself. It provides those benefits to the sport while generating its own resources. Likewise, events like this are beneficial to the kind of events you want. It's just that there is no one putting together the events that you want. It's not Twitch's fault. If you had already organized a merit-based tournament and it was coming soon, I'm sure it'd get some mentions during this event's stream and it'd massively benefit from this event. You could probably get retweets for your event from Day[9], iNc, Artosis, etc. And those retweets would yield better results because those guys had been doing these BW events as opposed to not being involved in BW at all. And your tournament would get more attention, have more viewers and more success and showcase the skills of the players you support to more people. Just free promotion, piggybacking off other people's work. But absent any initiative or work on your part, that's all that's left is for you to complain that Twitch isn't giving you a direct handout. Anyway, I'm off to practice some BW. This event is gonna be a lot of fun.
Tbh, I think it's easy for you to talk about it so "pragmatically" as you put it because you're the party thats benefiting from the event. Everyone else gets to watch and see how much of a joke foreign StarCraft is skill wise. There's little chance that this will result in more events.
No one is arguing against day9 and artosis being there because we all know that they draw in viewers. We're debating the merit of you being there (I mean no disrespect by it, you're just no where near the top skill wise). It's like if TSL2 was invite only and you couldn't participate because the organization decided you weren't noteworthy enough before the start of the tournament. You would have been outraged I imagine...
Tbh, the organizers would have been better off for viewership hosting a Korean invitational, tastosis already in Korea it would be easy. Just need to get Day9 there.
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As sad as it is, there is not much point in hosting a tournament with "top foreigners" in BW. Very few people are going to take interest in it anyway. The fact that oldschool personalities of the scene draw more attention and viewers than the top players, show how much this game suffers outside of Korea.
Some people in our scene just have to realize that "good foreigners" aren't popular. If you want to watch good players, watch the Koreans and make the best out of it that way.
Twitch probably see this aswell, that's why they are doing this as a fun thing that you can tune into and entertain yourself if you so please.
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Unfortunately the fat kid can't defend himself with jokes, nothing like conning the sponsor into thinking the fat kid is a top player and the invites are top too, easy money, easy promotion for them, not so good for bw. Sooner or later every sponsor is going to see how it is.
with the pros and commentators who know the game best
Oh, another joke!
User was temp banned for this post.
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I'll watch it, and I'll most likely enjoy it. Thanks for the content my dudes!
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Whiners, whiners, whiners. YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO SHIT! ORGANIZE YOUR OWN FUCKING EVENTS!
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On December 17 2017 07:03 Neobick wrote:
Whiners, whiners, whiners. YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO SHIT! ORGANIZE YOUR OWN FUCKING EVENTS!
Eywa literally made Gambit Cup happen.
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Definitely happy with the invite, it's remastered, so it's nice to see the old names. Honestly I have no idea about any of the supposed to be top players at all. That would not draw my viewership 
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I think InControl has a point here and so does everyone else, but voicing concerns about not getting invited in every thread is plain pointless I think. At least InControl takes the trouble and speaks out, but -as he pointed out- who gets invited or not is not up to him. Do you see the other guys posting here, besides Inc? Where is Artosis, Tasteless? It seems to me they left the roots of this community a time ago from this perspective, but this is maybe not true - and they aren`t posting becaue of the reactions are harsh, I don`t know, I`m not here to judge.
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I think having a tournament like this is fun (never heard of jaeyun but if he was famous with ucsd and he s fun i mea n why not?) but we shoud also get more "normal" tournaments where people like eon can go too.
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Im going to tune into this event, and im happy its happening because I love BW and I think the more BW events the better, even if they are ones I dont participate in or particularly care for the format. Any SCR events whatsoever should be good for the community. That being said, im personally only interested in the competitive 1v1 SCR games so thats what ill be tuning in for.
I think its important to consider what the host/sponsors actually intended for the event, and in this case it appears to me that its a lot less serious than something like the Zotac or ESL tournaments were, otherwise surely there would have been qualifiers, and the games wouldnt have been divided into 1v1/2v2/3v3/bgh/ffa whatever, and also SC2 games, not just SCR afaik. So in this case it seems players wouldve been picked based on their ability to play both games, draw in viewers, and not cost too much or at all to fly around. Maybe some of the choices couldve been better, maybe not. I doubt whoever is in charge is a retard, there were surely multiple factors going into each consideration.
Personally Id love to see more big offline events like Zotac or ESL (preferably with more qualification spots in the case of ESL), or online events similar to TSL/TLS, with less of a focus on invites and more on qualification and top level foreign competition. The Twitch Holiday Bash isnt any of those though, and I really dont think it should be treated as if it tried to be and failed utterly.
Im super thankful to have had the opportunity to play in Zotac, and I realize that some players like eon have had a less easy time to participate in something like that despite having the skill (ESL with only 2 spots for all of europe minus italy is pretty harsh) and might feel jealous or excluded. I probably would too, but I think we should direct energy towards making more events happen rather than criticizing ones that are already happening. At the same time, maybe the organizers at twitch are misinformed about what would draw in the most viewers, and having some feedback would be beneficial also? I dont know, I just hope that its a success which leads to more investment in SCR in general.
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I'm just happy to have events like this in 2017. I'm sympathetic with the top foreign players who aren't getting into these events and I hope they get a chance to prove themselves as these events keep going on. I think for the people running these tournaments inviting old school players is an easy choice, they have some crossover recognition for the larger foreign sc2 audience or just name recognition from being in the community for so long.
I do think it is kind of sad that anyone new organizing stuff for foreign BW is met with a wall of complaints. Hosting events for foreign BW is not exactly a lucrative proposition.
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At the risk of taking a ton of flak, let me give My Opinion™:
This is coming from the perspective of someone that thinks money is important, but not the most important thing in the world. I say this because people will inevitably say, "Whatever makes the most money", or "Why would Twitch want to make less money?". Something along those lines. However, to me, the thing that's really important is being true to the game. What bothers me is that Twitch did not decide to find out who the best players are, and attempt to bring some big names like Day9/tasteless/artosis in to cast. That way, they would have the best players, and the most-well-known casters. Unfortunately, this is not the route they took.
6,000 dollars is a lot of money. It may not seem that way if you're rich, but for someone who put in YEARS of hard practice, the prospect of winning that money doing something they have been very passionate about would be an amazing blessing to see. Unfortunately, Twitch has decided to spit in the face of everyone who has been practicing and playing Brood War at the top level while SC2 was sucking the life out of StarCraft. That includes Bonyth, Sziky, Trutacz, Marwin, Michael, Bakuryu, Dewalt, Cryoc, Djem5, eOnzErg, DragOn, and many, many more. A lot of other good players, like sas.Ace, Ramms, AlfiO, and others had to completely retire because there was no future from investing time into the game. The game is the reason we're all here and connected, so to pretend like the game doesn't matter would be incredibly disingenuous.
Now, do I believe these players are entitled to this money? No, of course not. Twitch can do whatever it wants with its money, but conversely, I also have the freedom to say that I highly disagree with Twitch's decision. They're bringing in Draco from Poland and White-Ra from Ukraine, but they can't give a ticket to Sziky? What kind of bullshit is that? And now -- and I'm very, very, very, very sorry to say this but -- most of the names on the list got famous off of SC2, and simply have a lot of twitch followers.
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If we were to move forward from here, what would be required to become more united as a whole?
I feel most opinions have been voiced and that there's also come forth some suggestions as to what can be helpful. For instance, Qikz has made a pretty good point that all the "names" (f.ex. Day9) probably get so many requests for this or that, that simply asking for some retweets etc. doesn't necessarily lead to anything. However, iNcontroL has stated in this thread that he'd love to make sure more tournaments get some recognition.
So regardless of how it's been before, regardless of whether "we've always been ignored" or anything like that, this discussion have brought forth a lot of good. Assuming we can choose to use what we have here and then move forward. To nudge the discussion towards cooperation.
As I understand, both Qikz and Eywa- have/are arranging tournaments? And we also have Rus_Brain who might read this thread? Are there any others? As for the "names" in here, we have iNcontroL and Nony, at least. Are there others - silent or overlooked?
Would it be possible to talk it over and have some sort of cooperation? Not necessarily any big commitments, but at least something that's new. Progress. For instance, send a shoutout and say "hey, I'm making this tour - can you give some exposure?". If there's some sort of network arranged, then the organizers can contact "names" willing to help out, who'll then create awareness - maybe even take part directly.
If so, who'd be interested in something like that (from both sides)?
Maybe someone in a good position could even try to connect the skill based tournaments with sponsors who can bring more money on the table?
I fear if we keep going in circles, there won't be any progress - regardless of who's correct. When there's even some terminology used (f.ex. "oldboys club" etc.), the rethoric will get increasingly polarized and the division might become total. Please, for the love of Xel'Naga - break the circle!
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Notice how the people who were invited are acting in this thread.
Notice how the people who weren't invited are acting in this thread.
Coincidence?
This is an event happening in California being organized by Twitch with people in the area hosting it. If you don't like the people/players involved or the prize pool or the location, instead of bashing players, getting angry, whining more about everything and it isn't helping get what you say you want (I think there's a solid argument that maybe these users just want to be negative and nothing else), then maybe you should try doing something differently.
Maybe you should try being supportive of events. Any events, at all, just once, and see how it goes.
Maybe you should think about what's good for the community instead of what you want for yourself, and see how that turns out.
Maybe you should try to actually do something instead of doing nothing but being negative on forums.
Maybe you should try spreading the word on social media about BW/SCR with at least a neutral voice if somehow you are incapable of being positive.
Maybe you should show your support for new talent without shitting all over the people making things happen.
Maybe just maybe one of those things will help your community.
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Katowice25012 Posts
This looks fun and I am happy I will get to watch it.
I empathize with everyone's position here regarding invites, it's a reasonable perspective, but I do wish it were more possible to just enjoy the tournaments at face value without everyone being so angry all the time.
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On December 17 2017 08:44 blunderfulguy wrote:
Notice how the people who were invited are acting in this thread.
Notice how the people who weren't invited are acting in this thread.
Coincidence?
This is an event happening in California being organized by Twitch with people in the area hosting it. If you don't like the people/players involved or the prize pool or the location, instead of bashing players, getting angry, whining more about everything and it isn't helping get what you say you want (I think there's a solid argument that maybe these users just want to be negative and nothing else), then maybe you should try doing something differently.
Maybe you should try being supportive of events. Any events, at all, just once, and see how it goes.
Maybe you should think about what's good for the community instead of what you want for yourself, and see how that turns out.
Maybe you should try to actually do something instead of doing nothing but being negative on forums.
Maybe you should try spreading the word on social media about BW/SCR with at least a neutral voice if somehow you are incapable of being positive.
Maybe you should show your support for new talent without shitting all over the people making things happen.
Maybe just maybe one of those things will help your community.
Where is Sero's invite, then?
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On December 17 2017 08:44 blunderfulguy wrote:
Notice how the people who were invited are acting in this thread.
Notice how the people who weren't invited are acting in this thread.
Coincidence?
This is an event happening in California being organized by Twitch with people in the area hosting it. If you don't like the people/players involved or the prize pool or the location, instead of bashing players, getting angry, whining more about everything and it isn't helping get what you say you want (I think there's a solid argument that maybe these users just want to be negative and nothing else), then maybe you should try doing something differently.
Maybe you should try being supportive of events. Any events, at all, just once, and see how it goes.
Maybe you should think about what's good for the community instead of what you want for yourself, and see how that turns out.
Maybe you should try to actually do something instead of doing nothing but being negative on forums.
Maybe you should try spreading the word on social media about BW/SCR with at least a neutral voice if somehow you are incapable of being positive.
Maybe you should show your support for new talent without shitting all over the people making things happen.
Maybe just maybe one of those things will help your community.
lol all your posts are in SC2 forums except when you drop in here to lecture people. What the fuck do you care about BW and the community surrounding it? I'm sure you're excited about this event though given that it consists of almost all people who made their careers in SC2.
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Netherlands5188 Posts
No interesting matches and a ton of nerd humor that isn't my cup of tea. I'll pass.
+ Show Spoiler +I'd actually much rather read a Nina blog.
I'm not angry, I'll just wait for Qikz/Sayle/FlashFTW/BD etc. to cast something much better.
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EPT
