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TLADT24920 Posts
On December 17 2017 00:37 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2017 09:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
What a reality check,been a top foreigner player after sc2 cames out means shit.since remastered 4 big events been made,not a single top foreigner was invited. Hey, look on the bright side, eventually SC3 will get released and everyone will flock to it. Then few years after that, StarCraft Remastered: Remastered will be made and you will be invited to its tournaments instead of people who didn't switch to SC3.
haha. I think what folks need to realize is that this was probably twitch's way of trying to run a fun BW RM tournament with as little cost as possible. They are not trying to make it a competitive tournament. What matters the most is who the attendees are and how well they mesh with each other/are popular. Take popular casters and have them obs popular players. It's a formula that has had much more success than many are giving it credit for.
Also, RM kinda flopped in the foreign scene. All the bugs early on scared away much of the newer folks so we're back to the usual community base with several new folks that stuck around. From that perspective, it makes more sense to invite personalities that can attract more attention than some of the current players.
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If it's just about fun games and cultivating a sense of comradery, why does it need a prize pool of 6 000 dollars?
This is clearly the reason why it stings for a lot of top foreigners.
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If this event is successful, it's only going to urge twitch to continue to support the oldboys club. That's not what the scene wants. The scene wants real competition and EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Watching the same old people gets stale extremely fast. Players should have to constantly fight to retain their status. The pie is limited. Drowning out everyone else by limiting events to the old boys club does not grow the scene. The only purpose that behavior serves is to protect the status for those within the old boys club and line their pockets from sponsors. Supporting this event goes against everything the scene wants. I love BW but I cannot support this event.
Edit: This "event" is nothing more than a promotional event for the individuals listed.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Thankfully reachthesky doesn't actually speak for the community. Can you imagine if he did? Woof!
Anyways... gonna be fun. I'm going to stop trying to talk sense to people in this thread. At the end of the day if you really think we are bad people doing a bad thing no amount of typing in here will change that for you guys. I'm just gonna keep doing my thing.. like I have for the last 17 years.
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The truth is, old boys need new blood and new blood need old boys. Both are important to create a growth engine for the scene. Meanwhile exclusively choosing sides is not. Therefore, i support this! Thanks twitch.
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The main incentive of this event is having fun and most of these "oldboys club" guys are the sole reason I still watch some streams from time to time, so the more, the better.
Some folks clearly have wrong expectations for an event like this.
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On December 17 2017 03:21 iNcontroL wrote:
Thankfully reachthesky doesn't actually speak for the community. Can you imagine if he did? Woof!
Anyways... gonna be fun. I'm going to stop trying to talk sense to people in this thread. At the end of the day if you really think we are bad people doing a bad thing no amount of typing in here will change that for you guys. I'm just gonna keep doing my thing.. like I have for the last 17 years.
No one thinks you are bad people Geoff, or at least I don't think you are. We just don't like the way the scene is ran and we are being vocal about it. The same old formula you guys have been using is a recipe for stifling and limiting growth in the long haul. Do your thing as you should, just don't expect people to tune in.
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On December 17 2017 03:34 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 03:21 iNcontroL wrote:
Thankfully reachthesky doesn't actually speak for the community. Can you imagine if he did? Woof!
Anyways... gonna be fun. I'm going to stop trying to talk sense to people in this thread. At the end of the day if you really think we are bad people doing a bad thing no amount of typing in here will change that for you guys. I'm just gonna keep doing my thing.. like I have for the last 17 years. No one thinks you are bad people Geoff, or at least I don't think you are. We just don't like the way the scene is ran and we are being vocal about it. The same old formula you guys have been using is a recipe for stifling and limiting growth in the long haul. Do your thing as you should, just don't expect people to tune in.
Who is this collective "we" you are talking about? Why are these guys who just happen to have a deep passion for BW automatically responsible for a "limiting growth in the long haul"? This game is almost 20 years old, I think we have the long haul already behind us.
If you want the scene to head into a different direction for more support and growth, maybe you should engage in organizing tournaments yourself?
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8751 Posts
On December 17 2017 03:12 ReachTheSky wrote:
If this event is successful, it's only going to urge twitch to continue to support the oldboys club. That's not what the scene wants. The scene wants real competition and EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Watching the same old people gets stale extremely fast. Players should have to constantly fight to retain their status. The pie is limited. Drowning out everyone else by limiting events to the old boys club does not grow the scene. The only purpose that behavior serves is to protect the status for those within the old boys club and line their pockets from sponsors. Supporting this event goes against everything the scene wants. I love BW but I cannot support this event.
Edit: This "event" is nothing more than a promotional event for the individuals listed.
There are plenty of other sponsors out there besides Twitch. So what if all of Twitch's BW events are like this? It keeps interest in BW alive. You sound like the hardcore sports fans who think that resources going to fantasy is somehow bad for sports. If all the fantasy shows, web sites, social media buzz, etc, didn't exist, all those resources wouldn't be going to the sports instead. Fantasy draws in people who otherwise wouldn't have watched the sport at all and it prevents people from not watching when they've lost interest in the sport itself. It provides those benefits to the sport while generating its own resources. Likewise, events like this are beneficial to the kind of events you want. It's just that there is no one putting together the events that you want. It's not Twitch's fault.
If you had already organized a merit-based tournament and it was coming soon, I'm sure it'd get some mentions during this event's stream and it'd massively benefit from this event. You could probably get retweets for your event from Day[9], iNc, Artosis, etc. And those retweets would yield better results because those guys had been doing these BW events as opposed to not being involved in BW at all. And your tournament would get more attention, have more viewers and more success and showcase the skills of the players you support to more people. Just free promotion, piggybacking off other people's work.
But absent any initiative or work on your part, that's all that's left is for you to complain that Twitch isn't giving you a direct handout.
Anyway, I'm off to practice some BW. This event is gonna be a lot of fun.
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I think people don't realize that if it wasn't for the "old" guard, there wouldn't be an event at all.
But enough with this, gl hf to all the participants 
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On December 17 2017 03:45 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 03:12 ReachTheSky wrote:
If this event is successful, it's only going to urge twitch to continue to support the oldboys club. That's not what the scene wants. The scene wants real competition and EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Watching the same old people gets stale extremely fast. Players should have to constantly fight to retain their status. The pie is limited. Drowning out everyone else by limiting events to the old boys club does not grow the scene. The only purpose that behavior serves is to protect the status for those within the old boys club and line their pockets from sponsors. Supporting this event goes against everything the scene wants. I love BW but I cannot support this event.
Edit: This "event" is nothing more than a promotional event for the individuals listed. There are plenty of other sponsors out there besides Twitch. So what if all of Twitch's BW events are like this? It keeps interest in BW alive. You sound like the hardcore sports fans who think that resources going to fantasy is somehow bad for sports. If all the fantasy shows, web sites, social media buzz, etc, didn't exist, all those resources wouldn't be going to the sports instead. Fantasy draws in people who otherwise wouldn't have watched the sport at all and it prevents people from not watching when they've lost interest in the sport itself. It provides those benefits to the sport while generating its own resources. Likewise, events like this are beneficial to the kind of events you want. It's just that there is no one putting together the events that you want. It's not Twitch's fault. If you had already organized a merit-based tournament and it was coming soon, I'm sure it'd get some mentions during this event's stream and it'd massively benefit from this event. You could probably get retweets for your event from Day[9], iNc, Artosis, etc. And those retweets would yield better results because those guys had been doing these BW events as opposed to not being involved in BW at all. And your tournament would get more attention, have more viewers and more success and showcase the skills of the players you support to more people. Just free promotion, piggybacking off other people's work. But absent any initiative or work on your part, that's all that's left is for you to complain that Twitch isn't giving you a direct handout. Anyway, I'm off to practice some BW. This event is gonna be a lot of fun.
You shouldn't insinuate that i'm complaining that twitch isn't giving me a direct handout. No where did I even come off like that. I was very specific and clear with my words and was very direct with my explanation. Next time you want to try and spin the narrative, at least make sense instead of making stuff up. You lost my respect and i'll no longer be subscribing to you on twitch or donating to you.
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I support any BW event and I'll be sure to tune in. The only problem is that I feel there's a limited amount of money and opportunity to draw people in. Having only a few tournaments ... well ... we gotta make the most out of them. Seeing out of shape players isn't going to help anyone.
I believe that's why some people, myself included, wanted to see top players. Because they could deliver spectacular games, feet-on-keyboard included. No disrespect to the invited guys, but the top active players could probably fool around and have show matches at a higher level. That's the only problem.
I'm not asking for a 12 week qualifier and a tournament with 10x costs. I want BW to be well represented by some of the best in the game. I think the guys at Zotac or Twitch might not know who guys like Eon are. Thus, they'd need some help regarding picking the players. Why they aren't given that help/advice ... I'm not sure.
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On December 17 2017 04:11 deus_073 wrote:
I support any BW event and I'll be sure to tune in. The only problem is that I feel there's a limited amount of money and opportunity to draw people in. Having only a few tournaments ... well ... we gotta make the most out of them. Seeing out of shape players isn't going to help anyone.
I believe that's why some people, myself included, wanted to see top players. Because they could deliver spectacular games, feet-on-keyboard included. No disrespect to the invited guys, but the top active players could probably fool around and have show matches at a higher level. That's the only problem.
I'm not asking for a 12 week qualifier and a tournament with 10x costs. I want BW to be well represented by some of the best in the game. I think the guys at Zotac or Twitch might not know who guys like Eon are. Thus, they'd need some help regarding picking the players. Why they aren't given that help/advice ... I'm not sure.
This why everything should be open qualifiers. Results will show who is worthy.
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this is an event to promote a game we all love if you want to chose who is in the tournament host one yourself and pick the players you want i could host a tour for 10 grand and pick nothing but d rank guys because its my tour my choice its just going to help get more activity and interest in the game
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I'm not hating on this event, but I really disagree with characterizing bw fans as toxic for advocating for the players who we see grinding to get better (a group that includes a few of the players invited to the tournament).
It's totally fair to have an event that isn't focused on showcasing top foreign competition, but it does rub me the wrong way a bit that the winner of this tournament will have earned more money in a single tournament than most top foreign players have earned in many, many years of competing. Zotac probably did a good job of balancing the two competing interests by having half the prize pool dedicated to players who participated through qualification and half the prize for players participating by invite.
I also want to mention that people who have been playing broodwar in online competitions for the last several years will always be at a disadvantage in terms of camera-readiness because they did not have the LAN exposure that SC2 players did, to say nothing of whatever media training progaming teams might have offered. That's no one's fault, but the disparity certainly won't close if they continue to only get chances in online tournaments.
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United Kingdom12060 Posts
On December 17 2017 03:45 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2017 03:12 ReachTheSky wrote:
If this event is successful, it's only going to urge twitch to continue to support the oldboys club. That's not what the scene wants. The scene wants real competition and EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Watching the same old people gets stale extremely fast. Players should have to constantly fight to retain their status. The pie is limited. Drowning out everyone else by limiting events to the old boys club does not grow the scene. The only purpose that behavior serves is to protect the status for those within the old boys club and line their pockets from sponsors. Supporting this event goes against everything the scene wants. I love BW but I cannot support this event.
Edit: This "event" is nothing more than a promotional event for the individuals listed. There are plenty of other sponsors out there besides Twitch. So what if all of Twitch's BW events are like this? It keeps interest in BW alive. You sound like the hardcore sports fans who think that resources going to fantasy is somehow bad for sports. If all the fantasy shows, web sites, social media buzz, etc, didn't exist, all those resources wouldn't be going to the sports instead. Fantasy draws in people who otherwise wouldn't have watched the sport at all and it prevents people from not watching when they've lost interest in the sport itself. It provides those benefits to the sport while generating its own resources. Likewise, events like this are beneficial to the kind of events you want. It's just that there is no one putting together the events that you want. It's not Twitch's fault. If you had already organized a merit-based tournament and it was coming soon,I'm sure it'd get some mentions during this event's stream and it'd massively benefit from this event. You could probably get retweets for your event from Day[9], iNc, Artosis, etc. And those retweets would yield better results because those guys had been doing these BW events as opposed to not being involved in BW at all. And your tournament would get more attention, have more viewers and more success and showcase the skills of the players you support to more people. Just free promotion, piggybacking off other people's work. But absent any initiative or work on your part, that's all that's left is for you to complain that Twitch isn't giving you a direct handout. Anyway, I'm off to practice some BW. This event is gonna be a lot of fun.
Hi Nony,
I've been hosting and running tournaments a number of weeks now and I would continue to do so even if 1 person watched. I enjoy running events and casting them, because I love this game and while I don't see foreign broodwar was the top echelon and it likely never will be I still love watching it. I would like to counteract the point you made in saying that if I was to say tweet at you about my events or anything like that, why would you even care? I open my events to everyone, but the prize pools are a lot smaller, but they exist. Why would you even bother dignifying me with a response let alone want to promote my event? With yourself perhaps it's slightly different, but for someone like Artosis, Tasteless or Day9 I'd argue they're pretty famous on the internet and people from lots of different games will know who they are and care. I'm almost certain Sean gets spammed by thousands of people asking him about small events every day. He's not going to really even have the time to look at them.
I hope you can understand that the reason these players are getting frustrated is the fact that all they have is events like mine. Tournament organisers, the bigger ones invite people who maybe not as good at the game purely on the basis they were popular before and they know that will give them higher chances at a higher viewership. I understand entirely why they do that, it's a business and while I disagree with the fact you tell people to go to other games where the money is rather than make BW bigger, I do understand why you likely feel that way. Is it not right that the "old boys" who are benefitting from these events should at least make an effort to speak to the current community (and yes I know this thread isn't going so well) and see what you guys can do to help smaller tournaments and make the situation better for top players today?
Like for instance I have a tournament on the 23rd of December which will be the 13th weekly I've run. It's ran purely off the back of generous donations and the prize pool overall has totalled over $1400, which while it isn't a lot compared to this event it's better than nothing. Why do you think the people you've mentioned previously would even care to look at the events to begin with, let alone promote them?
Sorry if this is a little wordy.
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The way to actually promote BW is to show that it can pay to actually play the game. These tournaments just foster "you should have been there to buddy up. Too late, but hope you enjoy our entertainment."
I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's really indicative of what BW has always been about. I once qualified for the final 4 of a WCG qualifer. There was no bracket or time given out, yet. Sheth and Nyoken decided to "MAKE THEIR OWN BRACKET" and time up, and not inform me nor the other guy (non old boys club member). They just played against each other to decide who would go to the USA finals...
The final 4 was supposed to be randomized; ie., no way to know who you should be playing until the admin made the bracket. It was the biggest joke to ever happen in esports. But, since it benefited the "old guard," it was viewed as the most legit thing ever. Totally normal and kosher. That's the kind of power that tl.net wielded over tournaments and the community. They do w/e they feel like, and if you're not apart of the buddy system, then you're a noob compared to us and you don't even deserve to play in things you qualified for.
When I think of SC 2, the only time that ever seemed worth playing was when practically every country had their own WCS. Argentina, Brazil, etc, etc. Unfortunately, when things aren't done properly or there stops being enough money for it, then you end up with this and trying to twist how what benefits the same people, over and over, is actually for a broader good.
I'm not trying to hate. Just, I can understand why the "new age" people could feel a certain way. At the end of the day, if people like Nony actually had a reason to play BW, then he would qualify, anyways.
BW is pretty much just propaganda, though. My friends are funnier than the rest. They're better players. Better personalities. We leak rainbows, thus... ofc all of the events are for us. It's a monopoly where the unknown or non buddy is just treated as inferior. GL to those who play now.
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I feel like there is a sizable portion of the community (including myself) that don't really care about the old foreign BW scene. Many of us started playing BW a bit on the later side and played it all through the sc2 period despite the fact that the scene was barely alive. This means that our connection and interest to the scene was formed while all these various casters and personalities were away trying to be successful in sc2. I don't want to speak too much for others but at least for me personally, just seeing a handful of oldschool foreigners and personalities doesn't really have any appeal.
It would be nice to see more content centered around the players who have been more recently relevant.
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Sponsors are only gonna appear though of the viewership goes up and that is kinda hard apparently. It's a bit of a fix.
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EPT
