Starting December 18 at 11am PST, we’re kicking off the Twitch Starcraft Holiday Bash on /day9tv with the pros and commentators who know the game best. The veteran lineup includes Day9, Tasteless, Artosis, iNcontrol, Sheth, Draco, Nony, KawaiiRice, Jaeyun, and White-Ra.
On December 18 and 19, there will be a StarCraft Remastered 1v1 8-player invitational with a $6,000 prize pool. Drop by for friendly competition, free-for-alls, 2v2s, custom maps, and more.
What a reality check,been a top foreigner player after sc2 cames out means shit.since remastered 4 big events been made,not a single top foreigner was invited.
On December 16 2017 09:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What a reality check,been a top foreigner player after sc2 cames out means shit.since remastered 4 big events been made,not a single top foreigner was invited.
On December 16 2017 09:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What a reality check,been a top foreigner player after sc2 cames out means shit.since remastered 4 big events been made,not a single top foreigner was invited.
Players are picked by folks at twitch. They don't really pick people for any other reason than they think they'd be fun on the couch and people would like to see them. It isn't like white white ra is a competitive player or something.
Sorry you weren't invited but getting mad in a thread won't do much. Just msg some folk and ask what it takes.
On December 16 2017 09:49 GTR wrote: i think people should have realised by now these 'invitationals' are not really tournaments.
True. But at the same time the prize pools have been large. It's not hard to understand why Eon and others would be more than a little bummed out.
In fairness though Eon, you guys right now are better players than most of these guys, but they are big name personas that have been relevant factors on TL and in SC2 as well. You're know by a small number of BW players, these guys are known by a much larger base, which is often the draw for invitationals.
The top four guys on the left are HUGE personalities in starcraft across both games. Tens of thousands of followers or more. Sheth is a very well known SC2 streamer. Draco is legit good right now and famous. NonY is also one of the most famous. White-Ra is a big name legend with some funny russian hype around him from BW and SC2.
The only two that seem out of place are Kawaii and Jaeyun. I don't know Jaeyun at all, and Kawaii as far as I know was good at BW/SC2 but was never really a big name either.
On December 16 2017 09:49 GTR wrote: i think people should have realised by now these 'invitationals' are not really tournaments.
True. But at the same time the prize pools have been large. It's not hard to understand why Eon and others would be more than a little bummed out.
In fairness though Eon, you guys right now are better players than most of these guys, but they are big name personas that have been relevant factors on TL and in SC2 as well. You're know by a small number of BW players, these guys are known by a much larger base, which is often the draw for invitationals.
The top four guys on the left are HUGE personalities in starcraft across both games. Tens of thousands of followers or more. Sheth is a very well known SC2 streamer. Draco is legit good right now and famous. NonY is also one of the most famous. White-Ra is a big name legend with some funny russian hype around him from BW and SC2.
The only two that seem out of place are Kawaii and Jaeyun. I don't know Jaeyun at all, and Kawaii as far as I know was good at BW/SC2 but was never really a big name either.
Jaeyun was the star player and one of the best during the CSL Brood War days where he carried UCSD to the 2009 CSL title and runner up in 2010 CSL.
This is an excellent opportunity to watch Artosis rage about SC while people laugh at him face to face instead of watching him rage about SC in memes or on streams while people in channels laugh at him.
They need to do away with this "oldboys club" bs. I don't want to watch players that haven't put up results in ages. I want to see the current top talent. Guess i'm not tuning in.
On December 16 2017 11:11 ReachTheSky wrote: They need to do away with this "oldboys club" bs. I don't want to watch players that haven't put up results in ages. I want to see the current top talent. Guess i'm not tuning in.
maybe what they're admitting between the lines is: "foreign SC simply isn't fun anymore, so we gotta squeeze that nostalgia juice." ?
watching foreign SC for me has sometimes felt like watching the paralympics.
Even korean SC won't appeal to me that much if more top players leave (like bisu had to). ://
I'm gonna watch it. Pretty sure I'll enjoy it to. I will also enjoy the upcoming thread about Incontrol where people bitch about him for 10+ pages again.
Looks like a good watch though I can't wait. But it would be nice to see some more of the current top guys on one of these shows in the future.
as much as I love the nostalgia and getting to see day, arty, tasteless and geoff in the couch, i think its about time that they use their influence to get the current top foreigners some mainstream screen time. people like dewaltoss, eonzerg, sziky and many others who played this game through thick and thin
On December 16 2017 09:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What a reality check,been a top foreigner player after sc2 cames out means shit.since remastered 4 big events been made,not a single top foreigner was invited.
you thing you would beat them?
He would beat most people on that list ,easily, lol
If you can't look at games themselves to see this, then consider that he has beaten ex progamers on stream.
Correction: He would beat every one on that list. For him to lose one game to any of them would be an upset.
On December 16 2017 09:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What a reality check,been a top foreigner player after sc2 cames out means shit.since remastered 4 big events been made,not a single top foreigner was invited.
you thing you would beat them?
He would beat most people on that list ,easily, lol
If you can't look at games themselves to see this, then consider that he has beaten ex progamers on stream.
Correction: He would beat every one on that list. For him to lose one game to any of them would be an upset.
I imagine travel costs are a factor: not going to bring in far away people unless they're big names or have their "old boys club membership." All of the known old-timers could switch to Dota 2 and they'd still make up every single SC tournament (except for Zodiacs).
On March 31, 1998, Blizzard Entertainment released StarCraft, a revolutionary real-time strategy game pitting three powerful and distinctive races against each other in a war-torn galaxy. In StarCraft, the resourceful terrans, mysterious protoss, and relentless zerg find themselves in a confluence of events that has only one possible outcome: an epic war for conquest and survival.
The year of its release, more than 1.5 million copies of StarCraft were sold around the world, making it the bestselling PC game of 1998. To date, it has sold more than 9.5 million copies worldwide. A considerable number of those copies have been sold in South Korea, where the game continues to enjoy unprecedented levels of popularity.
As a long time bw spectator I can see why Nony, Draco and White-Ra got invited. But I dont see why Jaeyun and Kawaiirice got invited over better or more well known players. Are they ex SC2 pros or something?
This has got to be a joke. Another stupid event that noone playing SCR really wants to watch. Of all participants only Draco is at top foreigner level right now. I understand that twitch/blizzard etc. could make one event and invite the old top players but it's so stupid that now there is nothing for the best foreign players who everyone would want to watch competing... And time after time they just make those events where they only invite, and invite players that are mostly at just some semi level which any other good foreigner could easily beat...
On December 16 2017 11:11 ReachTheSky wrote: They need to do away with this "oldboys club" bs. I don't want to watch players that haven't put up results in ages. I want to see the current top talent. Guess i'm not tuning in.
maybe what they're admitting between the lines is: "foreign SC simply isn't fun anymore, so we gotta squeeze that nostalgia juice." ?
watching foreign SC for me has sometimes felt like watching the paralympics.
Even korean SC won't appeal to me that much if more top players leave (like bisu had to). ://
What a comparison. Foreign BW is rather more like amateur 110 hurdles in my eyes, sure you won`t see times under 14 seconds, sure some will fall on the first hurdle, some may lose despite having an insormountable lead, but it`s all fun.
People should just take it for what it is, a talk show where some BW is occasionally played on the side for some reason. Like when the TV is on and no one pays attention to it. This event would draw the same amount of viewers, even if they played nothing at all.
Not a real Broodwar tournament or even "event" in my eyes. We gonna see the same old "nostalgia invites" of players that have achieved stone cold nothing since 2010 and that aren't even rlly good anymore to begin with. + Show Spoiler +
We gonna see Tastosis + incontrol do their circle-jerking memory lane nostalgia thing once again; missing all important pieces of action in the game, patting each other's shoulder and feeling very self-important. HINT: that special tactics reference doesn't get funnier after you heard it 200 times. Jesus, i loved White-Ra but today i'd rather see a caster talk about eon's or bonyth or dewalt's personality.
Watch some Sayle if you wanna see some quality casts.
On December 16 2017 09:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What a reality check,been a top foreigner player after sc2 cames out means shit.since remastered 4 big events been made,not a single top foreigner was invited.
yep. Must be incredible frustrating to you and other top foreigners, i feel for you!
On December 16 2017 09:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What a reality check,been a top foreigner player after sc2 cames out means shit.since remastered 4 big events been made,not a single top foreigner was invited.
Chill bro, it'll come.
I should hope so, but i have zero faith you are right. It has been 3/4 of a year with SC:R now and we see the same iteration of the same BS again. i doubt there's legitimate interest to show foreign talent.
On December 16 2017 12:57 halomonian wrote: as much as I love the nostalgia and getting to see day, arty, tasteless and geoff in the couch, i think its about time that they use their influence to get the current top foreigners some mainstream screen time. people like dewaltoss, eonzerg, sziky and many others who played this game through thick and thin
Don't think they give a flying fuck about it tbh. Not that it matters, casters don't determine who is invited or not.
On December 16 2017 19:10 Cryoc wrote: People should just take it for what it is, a talk show where some BW is occasionally played on the side for some reason. Like when the TV is on and no one pays attention to it. This event would draw the same amount of viewers, even if they played nothing at all.
That's right. And im not gonna watch it either. If i need some BW entertainment that day, im sure i'll find Eon's stream
On December 16 2017 17:47 Piste wrote: As a long time bw spectator I can see why Nony, Draco and White-Ra got invited. But I dont see why Jaeyun and Kawaiirice got invited over better or more well known players. Are they ex SC2 pros or something?
they live on the west coast and probably were the only players available of a decent skill level on short notice
What I think is kinda sad where a lot of this discussion is going is that even though both sides have a lot of valid points, the tone of the discussion and the division in itself can be damaging to the community overall. I think it's more important to look for solutions, rather than going in circles about why this or that is stupid or not. Which I reckon is going to happen here as well.
I think it's great that events like these are arranged. One of the things I enjoy about Remastered and that keeps me coming back, is precisely about nostalgia. And the players there (for the most part) are people who gives me that "fix".
However, I do agree that simply discarding the best currents players and sticking to nostalgia is detrimental for progress. We won't be able to create a new scene, we'll simply be enjoying the sunset of our old one. If we don't lay the foundation for the next, there's nothing left. And that makes it rather understandable that many people are frustrated.
Nevertheless, I don't agree that it's productive if this thread ends up with several pages of going in circles between "omg nostalgia noobs again" vs "stfu just enjoy it or don't watch if it's such a pain".
I'm going to enjoy this event. I probably won't be able to watch it live, but I'm sure as hell gonna watch the VODs. Probably even of the SC2-content too, even though I don't really play it anymore. And should there come events where the new talent is playing, I'd love to watch that as well! Although when it comes to that, I think the more important focus should be "How can I contribute to make it happen"? There's already tournaments about. But we have all the tools to make an event happen. We just need people to make it happen. I'd love to help out, with what little I can, and if there's some more as well, there's no end to what we can make happen!
So please. Search for solutions and what's best for the community, which I strongly believe to be stretching a friendly hand to the people you might not like, but would like to make room for nonetheless.
As I see it this is not a tournament to find a best of the best, world champion, potential Korean Pro Slayer, with a sponsors prize money bigger than Uefa Champions League (European soccer cup for NA ppl).
I think this is a talk show that includes showmatches among friends, with a goal to have fun, have a laugh and play some BW. It is the same thing we would do with our friends at homemade LAN party. But this one is done by best casting duo in the world, included with best streamer in the world and a guy who has such personality that you love him or hate him. And accidentally they all have big fan base and they are all friends in RL.
So if possible stop whining and complaining and take this show as it is and try to have fun watching
I don't understand why people are being so negative, it's clear that this is more of a christmas event rather than a "proper" tournament. Kawaii and Jaeyun have both shown good games recently, no need to bash on them, and being available for a west coast event probably played a role to their invitation, which is reasonable considering how many players qualified for zotac were unable to attend the offline event.
So yeah, I too would prefer to have an actual tournament with proper qualifiers, this doesn't make this event any bad though, since it's intended to be different in the first place.
Guys I really cannot understand the hate/overly aggresive criticism in this thread.
This is an invitational by people who gathered the prize pool and hence can decide whom they want to invite and whom they do not. Their invitational, their rules, their invites.
These guys work their asses off and have to argue with their superiors and sponsors to even get to the stage of officially organizing a tournament. People saying they arent going to watch (and hence boycott this event) are not only hurting themselves by not watching an amazing tournament but also hurt the whole SC:R scene in total. The less people are tuning in the less likely it is that we get another LAN event anytime soon.
Sure you can bring up the valid criticism that there could be qualifier for this and people like Bonyth, Dewalt, eon and co deserve the attendance of LAN events in SC:R, but think about this. The prizepool of this invitational is 6000 USD, so I guess the total money pool for this event was about 15,000 USD. Can you invite 3 europeans and still have a LAN tournament with a sizeable prize pool when the flight alone costs about 1,500 USD for each of these players? Then you have to pay for the lodging and food for them and still pay the venue costs etc. etc. Could Twitch increase the total money pool for this event? Yes they can, but they will not until it is clear that SC:R can remain a constant high amount of viewer's to satisfy the sponsors.
So in conclusion the more people tune into this event the more likely it is that there will be another event that might or might not have qualifiers.
Also those people organizing this probably also have a lot of persuading to do and hard work behind the scenes. Let's not hate on them as a community, so they might be discouraged organizing further events in future. So you might tell them that their work is appreciated even though you bring up valid criticism (that is at least what I learned in school that if you want to criticize someone, you always also tell them what they did good).
Thank you guys for organizing this invitational and your hard work BTS
I don't think it's hate. I think people want the best players to play. At least that's what I want.
As far as the casting, I can't believe I'm saying it, but I think I'd rather have Sayle. I love the old guard, but man ... they can go off the rails and never come back to relevant stuff. And when Day9 tries to chime in, I feel none of the other co-casters have his back. It's hard to explain, but the dynamic isn't there for me.
Well I can understand eonzerg's point. As an active BW player it must feel like a joke that you make such a nostalgia tourney with one of the biggest prize pools in foreign broodwar for the last 5 years. If anything broodwar tourneys have more like one-tenth of this prize pool. Still only one semi active player is invited. It feels like the current broodwar scene is completely ignored.
Imagine in 2010 TSL 2 would've been invite only with FroZ, FiSheYe, Grrr.... and Artosis.
On December 16 2017 22:24 asel wrote: Well I can understand eonzerg's point. As an active BW player it must feel like a joke that you make such a nostalgia tourney with one of the biggest prize pools in foreign broodwar for the last 5 years. If anything broodwar tourneys have more like one-tenth of this prize pool. Still only one semi active player is invited. It feels like the current broodwar scene is completely ignored.
Imagine in 2010 TSL 2 would've been invite only with FroZ, FiSheYe, Grrr.... and Artosis.
yeah that comparison is about right.. Funny to imagine actually,
It must be extremely frustrating for the current active top foreigners to never get invited.
Also I dont think many people are interested in watching free-for-alls, 2v2s, custom maps, and so on... what's the point really ? Why not make a Twitch Open Tournament online where all top foreigners can register and cast it live + some showmatches between - some koreans and top foreigners and/or - top foreigner vs top foreigner ?
People would be ten times more hyped by this imo than the same old "big names casters chit-chat sitting on a couch" format, casting midlyinteresting games. I think viewers are starting to get bored by this kind of show.
On December 16 2017 22:04 chrisolo wrote: Guys I really cannot understand the hate/overly aggresive criticism in this thread.
This is an invitational by people who gathered the prize pool and hence can decide whom they want to invite and whom they do not. Their invitational, their rules, their invites.
These guys work their asses off and have to argue with their superiors and sponsors to even get to the stage of officially organizing a tournament. People saying they arent going to watch (and hence boycott this event) are not only hurting themselves by not watching an amazing tournament but also hurt the whole SC:R scene in total. The less people are tuning in the less likely it is that we get another LAN event anytime soon.
Sure you can bring up the valid criticism that there could be qualifier for this and people like Bonyth, Dewalt, eon and co deserve the attendance of LAN events in SC:R, but think about this. The prizepool of this invitational is 6000 USD, so I guess the total money pool for this event was about 15,000 USD. Can you invite 3 europeans and still have a LAN tournament with a sizeable prize pool when the flight alone costs about 1,500 USD for each of these players? Then you have to pay for the lodging and food for them and still pay the venue costs etc. etc. Could Twitch increase the total money pool for this event? Yes they can, but they will not until it is clear that SC:R can remain a constant high amount of viewer's to satisfy the sponsors.
So in conclusion the more people tune into this event the more likely it is that there will be another event that might or might not have qualifiers.
Also those people organizing this probably also have a lot of persuading to do and hard work behind the scenes. Let's not hate on them as a community, so they might be discouraged organizing further events in future. So you might tell them that their work is appreciated even though you bring up valid criticism (that is at least what I learned in school that if you want to criticize someone, you always also tell them what they did good).
Thank you guys for organizing this invitational and your hard work BTS
I think that the rage is warranted.
It's great to have viewership and money in the game, but if half or more of the top players quit playing, then what's the point. Why do people quit? 1) there are no tournaments to play in (unless you want to get stompted by Koreans - shout out to cfc, Rus brain cup and sktl) 2) the ladder has been shit
Point 2 only mentioned for fairness of the argument. It's not that these massive tournaments are solely responsible for the problem, but everyone collectively is trying to kill the scene that was active from 2010-2017 minus a select few who are working at the opposite.
There should be a riot, and some of the voices that you've heard complaining in the past are gone, not because they chose to stop giving their input, but because they quit the damn game. (Or were bought out by a pro-korean clan - in rare cases)
Perhaps the issue comes from the founding. For the format you are proposing it demands a lot more funding, staff and devotion from the casters and organizers. And BW scene can't get more than 1-2k viewers on Twich except if Day9 is streaming.
I really like Kawaiirice and I've been connecting him with practice partners for this as much as I can (as quite a few top players are aware)... But I don't see how either he or jaeyun will contribute more to viewership than the top 3 of ZOTAC Masters... Michael and DragOn are huge fan favorites for modern bw fans and they would have a legitimate chance vs Draco.
Also, I won't be tuning in, not as a boycott, there is just better things for me to do personally and the lineup isn't enticing enough to change plans...
On December 16 2017 09:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What a reality check,been a top foreigner player after sc2 cames out means shit.since remastered 4 big events been made,not a single top foreigner was invited.
Hey, look on the bright side, eventually SC3 will get released and everyone will flock to it. Then few years after that, StarCraft Remastered: Remastered will be made and you will be invited to its tournaments instead of people who didn't switch to SC3.
I hope Twitch comes to the realization that events like this are an insult to the community. Better off not having events like this if you aren't going to invite the truly talented foreigners. Food for thought. Chew it up. It might be hard for twitch to swallow this but it's the truth.
Hey guys.. just watched the last season of game of thrones and hated it. They had action, violence and a lot of intrigue. Where are the jokes? Why wasn't it a musical? Why did they have the actors they did? I prefer matt Damon. I won't be watching next season if they continue to not have an animated segment each episode. It spits in the face of current top actors that they keep using these no name actors that haven't even done anything before. Like, if this show doesn't have the people I want and isn't the type of show I think it should be I hate it and will talk about how bad those people are.
I think it's more of a repeat of starcraft rm release show. Kinda LAN party talk show. They are doing what was proven to be successful the last time. Just compare the viewership of ESL Italia and Zotac US, you can see the difference.
And imho for the community as a whole it's quite good, as it will attract even more casuals, who in the future will be interested in seeing some serious competition too.
I do feel bad for serious players tho, and I really hope there will be some serious tournament in the near feature with no invites at all.
On December 17 2017 01:33 iNcontroL wrote: Hey guys.. just watched the last season of game of thrones and hated it. They had action, violence and a lot of intrigue. Where are the jokes? Why wasn't it a musical? Why did they have the actors they did? I prefer matt Damon. I won't be watching next season if they continue to not have an animated segment each episode. It spits in the face of current top actors that they keep using these no name actors that haven't even done anything before. Like, if this show doesn't have the people I want and isn't the type of show I think it should be I hate it and will talk about how bad those people are.
Still, it's a tough pill to swallow for people who put lot's effort into BW and will never get recognition for it. I spent the past 5 years casting for Brood War and put tons of my own money into the Korean and Foreign scene. When I casted stream to events for AfreecaTV FlashFtw and I were told that tastosis would give our stream just a few words of recognition and it didn't happen. I get it. These guys are busy and this is their living and have put in a ton of sweat equity into this scene, but it'd be really nice if the same names that pop up in every event reached out to the community and at least included those players that are consistently at the top and have earned the right to play on a big stage. Just any effort to show they are trying to engage in the player base would be great. Maybe it's just my personality, but I'd have stopped and said "Twitch I understand the list of people you invited, but it'd be very beneficial on your part to bring in at least two of the top players that have been streaming Starcraft over the last 5 years".
The "old boys club"-Where the same group of people push around the message that they are the top players in an effort to make money and retain their "celebrity status" from accomplishments over 7 years ago while screwing over the real talent. I wonder what kind of cut twitch is giving you guys for doing this show.
On December 17 2017 01:33 iNcontroL wrote: Hey guys.. just watched the last season of game of thrones and hated it. They had action, violence and a lot of intrigue. Where are the jokes? Why wasn't it a musical? Why did they have the actors they did? I prefer matt Damon. I won't be watching next season if they continue to not have an animated segment each episode. It spits in the face of current top actors that they keep using these no name actors that haven't even done anything before. Like, if this show doesn't have the people I want and isn't the type of show I think it should be I hate it and will talk about how bad those people are.
Still, it's a tough pill to swallow for people who put lot's effort into BW and will never get recognition for it. I spent the past 5 years casting for Brood War and put tons of my own money into the Korean and Foreign scene. When I casted stream to events for AfreecaTV FlashFtw and I were told that tastosis would give our stream just a few words of recognition and it didn't happen. I get it. These guys are busy and this is their living and have put in a ton of sweat equity into this scene, but it'd be really nice if the same names that pop up in every event reached out to the community and at least included those players that are consistently at the top and have earned the right to play on a big stage. Just any effort to show they are trying to engage in the player base would be great. Maybe it's just my personality, but I'd have stopped and said "Twitch I understand the list of people you invited, but it'd be very beneficial on your part to bring in at least two of the top players that have been streaming Starcraft over the last 5 years".
Yeah I get that. Working hard and wanting something in return isn't a bad thing for sure.
Mocking, angrily posting about how bad the players are and talking about how the people who are putting on an event are dumb and encouraging a boycott are however not productive.
We are going to keep saying yes to these events and trying to entertain people not because we think this will get 10 million views or give a chance to show off the best of the best but because we love this game and it's really fun. Looking at this event and shouting it down because it isn't a top foreigner invite is silly. This event isn't about having the best.. so judging it for that is really really dumb. Like my post above.. it would sound silly if we talked about shows that way.
Artosis and I are working on a show that talks about sc2 and bw. The angry folk in here.. help me when it comes around to show case the new top bw foreigner talent. I will give them a spotlight and try and help them out. Maybe we can raise money for an event? Showmatches? I'm down. I'd love to give eon and others a place to shine. This event however is not that place.
On December 17 2017 01:33 iNcontroL wrote: Hey guys.. just watched the last season of game of thrones and hated it. They had action, violence and a lot of intrigue. Where are the jokes? Why wasn't it a musical? Why did they have the actors they did? I prefer matt Damon. I won't be watching next season if they continue to not have an animated segment each episode. It spits in the face of current top actors that they keep using these no name actors that haven't even done anything before. Like, if this show doesn't have the people I want and isn't the type of show I think it should be I hate it and will talk about how bad those people are.
Still, it's a tough pill to swallow for people who put lot's effort into BW and will never get recognition for it. I spent the past 5 years casting for Brood War and put tons of my own money into the Korean and Foreign scene. When I casted stream to events for AfreecaTV FlashFtw and I were told that tastosis would give our stream just a few words of recognition and it didn't happen. I get it. These guys are busy and this is their living and have put in a ton of sweat equity into this scene, but it'd be really nice if the same names that pop up in every event reached out to the community and at least included those players that are consistently at the top and have earned the right to play on a big stage. Just any effort to show they are trying to engage in the player base would be great. Maybe it's just my personality, but I'd have stopped and said "Twitch I understand the list of people you invited, but it'd be very beneficial on your part to bring in at least two of the top players that have been streaming Starcraft over the last 5 years".
Yeah I get that. Working hard and wanting something in return isn't a bad thing for sure.
Mocking, angrily posting about how bad the players are and talking about how the people who are putting on an event are dumb and encouraging a boycott are however not productive.
We are going to keep saying yes to these events and trying to entertain people not because we think this will get 10 million views or give a chance to show off the best of the best but because we love this game and it's really fun. Looking at this event and shouting it down because it isn't a top foreigner invite is silly. This event isn't about having the best.. so judging it for that is really really dumb. Like my post above.. it would sound silly if we talked about shows that way.
Artosis and I are working on a show that talks about sc2 and bw. The angry folk in here.. help me when it comes around to show case the new top bw foreigner talent. I will give them a spotlight and try and help them out. Maybe we can raise money for an event? Showmatches? I'm down. I'd love to give eon and others a place to shine. This event however is not that place.
Sound good?
I mean, I think your analogy is actually pretty bad, you were once the top placement at WCG USA, imagine now that there were 2-3 large NA LAN, none of which invited you that year. They decided that all major LAN events would have players that can't even compete in the top 10 because they have more stream viewers and "better personalities".
You'd be super salty, maybe more than the people posting here, and it wouldn't be unreasonable for you to be upset.
On December 17 2017 01:33 iNcontroL wrote: Hey guys.. just watched the last season of game of thrones and hated it. They had action, violence and a lot of intrigue. Where are the jokes? Why wasn't it a musical? Why did they have the actors they did? I prefer matt Damon. I won't be watching next season if they continue to not have an animated segment each episode. It spits in the face of current top actors that they keep using these no name actors that haven't even done anything before. Like, if this show doesn't have the people I want and isn't the type of show I think it should be I hate it and will talk about how bad those people are.
Still, it's a tough pill to swallow for people who put lot's effort into BW and will never get recognition for it. I spent the past 5 years casting for Brood War and put tons of my own money into the Korean and Foreign scene. When I casted stream to events for AfreecaTV FlashFtw and I were told that tastosis would give our stream just a few words of recognition and it didn't happen. I get it. These guys are busy and this is their living and have put in a ton of sweat equity into this scene, but it'd be really nice if the same names that pop up in every event reached out to the community and at least included those players that are consistently at the top and have earned the right to play on a big stage. Just any effort to show they are trying to engage in the player base would be great. Maybe it's just my personality, but I'd have stopped and said "Twitch I understand the list of people you invited, but it'd be very beneficial on your part to bring in at least two of the top players that have been streaming Starcraft over the last 5 years".
Yeah I get that. Working hard and wanting something in return isn't a bad thing for sure.
Mocking, angrily posting about how bad the players are and talking about how the people who are putting on an event are dumb and encouraging a boycott are however not productive.
We are going to keep saying yes to these events and trying to entertain people not because we think this will get 10 million views or give a chance to show off the best of the best but because we love this game and it's really fun. Looking at this event and shouting it down because it isn't a top foreigner invite is silly. This event isn't about having the best.. so judging it for that is really really dumb. Like my post above.. it would sound silly if we talked about shows that way.
Artosis and I are working on a show that talks about sc2 and bw. The angry folk in here.. help me when it comes around to show case the new top bw foreigner talent. I will give them a spotlight and try and help them out. Maybe we can raise money for an event? Showmatches? I'm down. I'd love to give eon and others a place to shine. This event however is not that place.
Sound good?
I mean, I think your analogy is actually pretty bad, you were once the top placement at WCG USA, imagine now that there were 2-3 large NA LAN, none of which invited you that year. They decided that all major LAN events would have players that can't even compete in the top 10 because they have more stream viewers and "better personalities".
You'd be super salty, maybe more than the people posting here, and it wouldn't be unreasonable for you to be upset.
That doesn't make my analogy bad. The point of my analogy is some people are upset top foreigners weren't invited to an event that has zero intention of showcasing top foreigners. It's really that silly. If that point doesn't hit home we can agree to disagree.
Read my next tweet. I'd like to help. If people are interested, when the time comes help me help them!
Ive never really cared much for Broodwar, but I love these casters, I was kind of interested in tuning into this event and seeing if I might actually enjoy Broodwar since I've heard so much about the passionate community and all.
I'll still probably tune in, but I'm way less inclined to actually ever engage in Broodwar outside of my favorite personalities if this thread is at all indicative of the typical Broodwar community.
On December 17 2017 01:33 iNcontroL wrote: Hey guys.. just watched the last season of game of thrones and hated it. They had action, violence and a lot of intrigue. Where are the jokes? Why wasn't it a musical? Why did they have the actors they did? I prefer matt Damon. I won't be watching next season if they continue to not have an animated segment each episode. It spits in the face of current top actors that they keep using these no name actors that haven't even done anything before. Like, if this show doesn't have the people I want and isn't the type of show I think it should be I hate it and will talk about how bad those people are.
Still, it's a tough pill to swallow for people who put lot's effort into BW and will never get recognition for it. I spent the past 5 years casting for Brood War and put tons of my own money into the Korean and Foreign scene. When I casted stream to events for AfreecaTV FlashFtw and I were told that tastosis would give our stream just a few words of recognition and it didn't happen. I get it. These guys are busy and this is their living and have put in a ton of sweat equity into this scene, but it'd be really nice if the same names that pop up in every event reached out to the community and at least included those players that are consistently at the top and have earned the right to play on a big stage. Just any effort to show they are trying to engage in the player base would be great. Maybe it's just my personality, but I'd have stopped and said "Twitch I understand the list of people you invited, but it'd be very beneficial on your part to bring in at least two of the top players that have been streaming Starcraft over the last 5 years".
Yeah I get that. Working hard and wanting something in return isn't a bad thing for sure.
Mocking, angrily posting about how bad the players are and talking about how the people who are putting on an event are dumb and encouraging a boycott are however not productive.
We are going to keep saying yes to these events and trying to entertain people not because we think this will get 10 million views or give a chance to show off the best of the best but because we love this game and it's really fun. Looking at this event and shouting it down because it isn't a top foreigner invite is silly. This event isn't about having the best.. so judging it for that is really really dumb. Like my post above.. it would sound silly if we talked about shows that way.
Artosis and I are working on a show that talks about sc2 and bw. The angry folk in here.. help me when it comes around to show case the new top bw foreigner talent. I will give them a spotlight and try and help them out. Maybe we can raise money for an event? Showmatches? I'm down. I'd love to give eon and others a place to shine. This event however is not that place.
Sound good?
I mean, I think your analogy is actually pretty bad, you were once the top placement at WCG USA, imagine now that there were 2-3 large NA LAN, none of which invited you that year. They decided that all major LAN events would have players that can't even compete in the top 10 because they have more stream viewers and "better personalities".
You'd be super salty, maybe more than the people posting here, and it wouldn't be unreasonable for you to be upset.
That doesn't make my analogy bad. The point of my analogy is some people are upset top foreigners weren't invited to an event that has zero intention of showcasing top foreigners. It's really that silly. If that point doesn't hit home we can agree to disagree.
Read my next tweet. I'd like to help. If people are interested, when the time comes help me help them!
Right, I understand that the event is not designed to showcase top foreigner talent and that's not the intent. The problem is, only the TL events are set up to showcase top foreigner talent. That leads the the train of thought that some of these other events have to change or the personalities will become the top talent at a much lower level due to the top foreigners losing interest entirely, there's nothing for them now.
That's my point, I am not encouraging a boycott either. I'm just saying people should express their anger to push changes.
On December 17 2017 02:16 Zambrah wrote: Ive never really cared much for Broodwar, but I love these casters, I was kind of interested in tuning into this event and seeing if I might actually enjoy Broodwar since I've heard so much about the passionate community and all.
I'll still probably tune in, but I'm way less inclined to actually ever engage in Broodwar outside of my favorite personalities if this thread is at all indicative of the typical Broodwar community.
To be fair it's really just the same usual suspects shitting up each thread. Plenty of silent majority that are there to have a good time. TL BW community has become a really nasty place. You aren't the first to notice it. I'm gonna keep posting and make content this next year for BW as well. Hoping to draw out some people that may appreciate that. Still love this game and like anything else I can endure the haters
On December 17 2017 01:33 iNcontroL wrote: Hey guys.. just watched the last season of game of thrones and hated it. They had action, violence and a lot of intrigue. Where are the jokes? Why wasn't it a musical? Why did they have the actors they did? I prefer matt Damon. I won't be watching next season if they continue to not have an animated segment each episode. It spits in the face of current top actors that they keep using these no name actors that haven't even done anything before. Like, if this show doesn't have the people I want and isn't the type of show I think it should be I hate it and will talk about how bad those people are.
Still, it's a tough pill to swallow for people who put lot's effort into BW and will never get recognition for it. I spent the past 5 years casting for Brood War and put tons of my own money into the Korean and Foreign scene. When I casted stream to events for AfreecaTV FlashFtw and I were told that tastosis would give our stream just a few words of recognition and it didn't happen. I get it. These guys are busy and this is their living and have put in a ton of sweat equity into this scene, but it'd be really nice if the same names that pop up in every event reached out to the community and at least included those players that are consistently at the top and have earned the right to play on a big stage. Just any effort to show they are trying to engage in the player base would be great. Maybe it's just my personality, but I'd have stopped and said "Twitch I understand the list of people you invited, but it'd be very beneficial on your part to bring in at least two of the top players that have been streaming Starcraft over the last 5 years".
Yeah I get that. Working hard and wanting something in return isn't a bad thing for sure.
Mocking, angrily posting about how bad the players are and talking about how the people who are putting on an event are dumb and encouraging a boycott are however not productive.
We are going to keep saying yes to these events and trying to entertain people not because we think this will get 10 million views or give a chance to show off the best of the best but because we love this game and it's really fun. Looking at this event and shouting it down because it isn't a top foreigner invite is silly. This event isn't about having the best.. so judging it for that is really really dumb. Like my post above.. it would sound silly if we talked about shows that way.
Artosis and I are working on a show that talks about sc2 and bw. The angry folk in here.. help me when it comes around to show case the new top bw foreigner talent. I will give them a spotlight and try and help them out. Maybe we can raise money for an event? Showmatches? I'm down. I'd love to give eon and others a place to shine. This event however is not that place.
Sound good?
I mean, I think your analogy is actually pretty bad, you were once the top placement at WCG USA, imagine now that there were 2-3 large NA LAN, none of which invited you that year. They decided that all major LAN events would have players that can't even compete in the top 10 because they have more stream viewers and "better personalities".
You'd be super salty, maybe more than the people posting here, and it wouldn't be unreasonable for you to be upset.
That doesn't make my analogy bad. The point of my analogy is some people are upset top foreigners weren't invited to an event that has zero intention of showcasing top foreigners. It's really that silly. If that point doesn't hit home we can agree to disagree.
Read my next tweet. I'd like to help. If people are interested, when the time comes help me help them!
Right, I understand that the event is not designed to showcase top foreigner talent and that's not the intent. The problem is, only the TL events are set up to showcase top foreigner talent. That leads the the train of thought that some of these other events have to change or the personalities will become the top talent at a much lower level due to the top foreigners losing interest entirely, there's nothing for them now.
That's my point, I am not encouraging a boycott either. I'm just saying people should express their anger to push changes.
Ah yes.. encourage people to express "anger" to impact the change you want. Ahhh.. maybe there are more productive ways? Nah? Only anger? Ok then.
Sorry I tried to get in the way of your anger! Hope you enjoy the show anyways. I'm going to try and make some of the content you guys want through my show.. hope you are there to support.
On December 17 2017 01:33 iNcontroL wrote: Hey guys.. just watched the last season of game of thrones and hated it. They had action, violence and a lot of intrigue. Where are the jokes? Why wasn't it a musical? Why did they have the actors they did? I prefer matt Damon. I won't be watching next season if they continue to not have an animated segment each episode. It spits in the face of current top actors that they keep using these no name actors that haven't even done anything before. Like, if this show doesn't have the people I want and isn't the type of show I think it should be I hate it and will talk about how bad those people are.
Still, it's a tough pill to swallow for people who put lot's effort into BW and will never get recognition for it. I spent the past 5 years casting for Brood War and put tons of my own money into the Korean and Foreign scene. When I casted stream to events for AfreecaTV FlashFtw and I were told that tastosis would give our stream just a few words of recognition and it didn't happen. I get it. These guys are busy and this is their living and have put in a ton of sweat equity into this scene, but it'd be really nice if the same names that pop up in every event reached out to the community and at least included those players that are consistently at the top and have earned the right to play on a big stage. Just any effort to show they are trying to engage in the player base would be great. Maybe it's just my personality, but I'd have stopped and said "Twitch I understand the list of people you invited, but it'd be very beneficial on your part to bring in at least two of the top players that have been streaming Starcraft over the last 5 years".
Yeah I get that. Working hard and wanting something in return isn't a bad thing for sure.
Mocking, angrily posting about how bad the players are and talking about how the people who are putting on an event are dumb and encouraging a boycott are however not productive.
We are going to keep saying yes to these events and trying to entertain people not because we think this will get 10 million views or give a chance to show off the best of the best but because we love this game and it's really fun. Looking at this event and shouting it down because it isn't a top foreigner invite is silly. This event isn't about having the best.. so judging it for that is really really dumb. Like my post above.. it would sound silly if we talked about shows that way.
Artosis and I are working on a show that talks about sc2 and bw. The angry folk in here.. help me when it comes around to show case the new top bw foreigner talent. I will give them a spotlight and try and help them out. Maybe we can raise money for an event? Showmatches? I'm down. I'd love to give eon and others a place to shine. This event however is not that place.
Sound good?
I mean, I think your analogy is actually pretty bad, you were once the top placement at WCG USA, imagine now that there were 2-3 large NA LAN, none of which invited you that year. They decided that all major LAN events would have players that can't even compete in the top 10 because they have more stream viewers and "better personalities".
You'd be super salty, maybe more than the people posting here, and it wouldn't be unreasonable for you to be upset.
That doesn't make my analogy bad. The point of my analogy is some people are upset top foreigners weren't invited to an event that has zero intention of showcasing top foreigners. It's really that silly. If that point doesn't hit home we can agree to disagree.
Read my next tweet. I'd like to help. If people are interested, when the time comes help me help them!
Right, I understand that the event is not designed to showcase top foreigner talent and that's not the intent. The problem is, only the TL events are set up to showcase top foreigner talent. That leads the the train of thought that some of these other events have to change or the personalities will become the top talent at a much lower level due to the top foreigners losing interest entirely, there's nothing for them now.
That's my point, I am not encouraging a boycott either. I'm just saying people should express their anger to push changes.
Ah yes.. encourage people to express "anger" to impact the change you want. Ahhh.. maybe there are more productive ways? Nah? Only anger? Ok then.
Sorry I tried to get in the way of your anger! Hope you enjoy the show anyways. I'm going to try and make some of the content you guys want through my show.. hope you are there to support.
Sooo, if the content developed isnt appealing to people they should...
Tune in to show their support anyway in hopes that it appeals to them in the future? (Which it never will because if content is successful, people generally re-use the same recipe)
Not tune in and be quiet about it?
Express their thoughts in the thread and tune in?
Express their thoughts in the thread and not tune in?
I'm just saying, none of them are good options, so you can mock me for encouraging people to speak up. It's not an attack on you, so try not to feel offended.
Some really out-of-touch perspectives being revealed in these comments...
Twitch has done and continues to do plenty of work for competitive, legit esports events. But Twitch is also about community and simply having fun playing games. This event is more of the latter despite the games being legit esports games. The audience looking for legit non-Korean BW competitions is so small now. There are more people who would like to be entertained by Day[9] and friends than people who are interested in seeing top foreigner BW players compete.
If you're a fan of StarCraft, you should be happy that this event is StarCraft-themed rather than some other theme. I know it may seem like this event is misguided, but if that's how you feel, then the truth is that your preferences are in a very small minority and this event wasn't designed exactly for you.
Top BW players: I absolutely respect your hobby and the skill you've achieved, but at some point you must be at peace with the fact that your dedication to BW means that you are playing the game you prefer rather than playing the most competitive game. It is silly to bemoan the fact that the people responsible for organizing successful events are not putting faith in "top foreigner BW tournament" as a hot item in 2017. If you truly seek competition, there are better games to play than BW. If you keep practicing and waiting, I'm sure something will come along for BW, but the scene is very unlikely to flourish. It never really did outside of Korea even before SC2, not in the way you're hoping it will now.
I sincerely hope people continue to play BW competitively for their own fulfillment and enjoyment. But for the most talented players who continue to practice hard and hope for some kind of payoff or career in gaming, you ought to switch games. I wouldn't even suggest SC2. Play one of the actually big esports. If it's not about money and career, then organize your own competitions, just for the sake of fun and competition. That's what the people participating in this event did for years. The fact that is it essentially free to stream/broadcast an event now already puts you lightyears ahead of us back then. Hell, people were doing events before there were replays. The only way people heard about the games was from play-by-play reports written by observers. Look at this shit: http://classic.battle.net/scc/br/
A negative attitude toward events like this is not helpful. Events like this help foster a bigger potential audience for a serious tournament in the future. When it comes, if it's not successful, another event will be even less likely. You might be better off in the long run by having events like this first to set up the success of the event you want.
Have a positive attitude and enjoy this event for what it is. I think it will be a lot of fun. I know most of you will have fun and it's just the vocal minority that want to have their voices heard in this thread. But I truly hope they can come around and enjoy this event too.
edit: Just to be perfectly clear about my most pragmatic and useful advice for the people who want a purely merit-based foreigner BW event: It benefits you for this event to be as successful as possible. The success of this event increases the chances you get what you want. I know you're disappointed that this event isn't the event you want, but refusing to support it and having a negative attitude towards it does not help you! Your preferences are already known. You don't need to express your preferences via negative posts and boycotts. You need to build up interest in BW any way you can, including making this event a success. It is virtually inevitable that the event you want will happen and in the meantime you need to behave in a way that maximizes the chances of that event being a success when it does happen. Don't fill Twitch chat, etc, with negativity! Embrace everyone and whatever attention this event brings and plan for the future.
On December 16 2017 09:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What a reality check,been a top foreigner player after sc2 cames out means shit.since remastered 4 big events been made,not a single top foreigner was invited.
Hey, look on the bright side, eventually SC3 will get released and everyone will flock to it. Then few years after that, StarCraft Remastered: Remastered will be made and you will be invited to its tournaments instead of people who didn't switch to SC3.
haha. I think what folks need to realize is that this was probably twitch's way of trying to run a fun BW RM tournament with as little cost as possible. They are not trying to make it a competitive tournament. What matters the most is who the attendees are and how well they mesh with each other/are popular. Take popular casters and have them obs popular players. It's a formula that has had much more success than many are giving it credit for.
Also, RM kinda flopped in the foreign scene. All the bugs early on scared away much of the newer folks so we're back to the usual community base with several new folks that stuck around. From that perspective, it makes more sense to invite personalities that can attract more attention than some of the current players.
If this event is successful, it's only going to urge twitch to continue to support the oldboys club. That's not what the scene wants. The scene wants real competition and EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Watching the same old people gets stale extremely fast. Players should have to constantly fight to retain their status. The pie is limited. Drowning out everyone else by limiting events to the old boys club does not grow the scene. The only purpose that behavior serves is to protect the status for those within the old boys club and line their pockets from sponsors. Supporting this event goes against everything the scene wants. I love BW but I cannot support this event.
Edit: This "event" is nothing more than a promotional event for the individuals listed.
Thankfully reachthesky doesn't actually speak for the community. Can you imagine if he did? Woof!
Anyways... gonna be fun. I'm going to stop trying to talk sense to people in this thread. At the end of the day if you really think we are bad people doing a bad thing no amount of typing in here will change that for you guys. I'm just gonna keep doing my thing.. like I have for the last 17 years.
The truth is, old boys need new blood and new blood need old boys. Both are important to create a growth engine for the scene. Meanwhile exclusively choosing sides is not. Therefore, i support this! Thanks twitch.
The main incentive of this event is having fun and most of these "oldboys club" guys are the sole reason I still watch some streams from time to time, so the more, the better. Some folks clearly have wrong expectations for an event like this.
On December 17 2017 03:21 iNcontroL wrote: Thankfully reachthesky doesn't actually speak for the community. Can you imagine if he did? Woof!
Anyways... gonna be fun. I'm going to stop trying to talk sense to people in this thread. At the end of the day if you really think we are bad people doing a bad thing no amount of typing in here will change that for you guys. I'm just gonna keep doing my thing.. like I have for the last 17 years.
No one thinks you are bad people Geoff, or at least I don't think you are. We just don't like the way the scene is ran and we are being vocal about it. The same old formula you guys have been using is a recipe for stifling and limiting growth in the long haul. Do your thing as you should, just don't expect people to tune in.
On December 17 2017 03:21 iNcontroL wrote: Thankfully reachthesky doesn't actually speak for the community. Can you imagine if he did? Woof!
Anyways... gonna be fun. I'm going to stop trying to talk sense to people in this thread. At the end of the day if you really think we are bad people doing a bad thing no amount of typing in here will change that for you guys. I'm just gonna keep doing my thing.. like I have for the last 17 years.
No one thinks you are bad people Geoff, or at least I don't think you are. We just don't like the way the scene is ran and we are being vocal about it. The same old formula you guys have been using is a recipe for stifling and limiting growth in the long haul. Do your thing as you should, just don't expect people to tune in.
Who is this collective "we" you are talking about? Why are these guys who just happen to have a deep passion for BW automatically responsible for a "limiting growth in the long haul"? This game is almost 20 years old, I think we have the long haul already behind us. If you want the scene to head into a different direction for more support and growth, maybe you should engage in organizing tournaments yourself?
On December 17 2017 03:12 ReachTheSky wrote: If this event is successful, it's only going to urge twitch to continue to support the oldboys club. That's not what the scene wants. The scene wants real competition and EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Watching the same old people gets stale extremely fast. Players should have to constantly fight to retain their status. The pie is limited. Drowning out everyone else by limiting events to the old boys club does not grow the scene. The only purpose that behavior serves is to protect the status for those within the old boys club and line their pockets from sponsors. Supporting this event goes against everything the scene wants. I love BW but I cannot support this event.
Edit: This "event" is nothing more than a promotional event for the individuals listed.
There are plenty of other sponsors out there besides Twitch. So what if all of Twitch's BW events are like this? It keeps interest in BW alive. You sound like the hardcore sports fans who think that resources going to fantasy is somehow bad for sports. If all the fantasy shows, web sites, social media buzz, etc, didn't exist, all those resources wouldn't be going to the sports instead. Fantasy draws in people who otherwise wouldn't have watched the sport at all and it prevents people from not watching when they've lost interest in the sport itself. It provides those benefits to the sport while generating its own resources. Likewise, events like this are beneficial to the kind of events you want. It's just that there is no one putting together the events that you want. It's not Twitch's fault.
If you had already organized a merit-based tournament and it was coming soon, I'm sure it'd get some mentions during this event's stream and it'd massively benefit from this event. You could probably get retweets for your event from Day[9], iNc, Artosis, etc. And those retweets would yield better results because those guys had been doing these BW events as opposed to not being involved in BW at all. And your tournament would get more attention, have more viewers and more success and showcase the skills of the players you support to more people. Just free promotion, piggybacking off other people's work.
But absent any initiative or work on your part, that's all that's left is for you to complain that Twitch isn't giving you a direct handout.
Anyway, I'm off to practice some BW. This event is gonna be a lot of fun.
I think people don't realize that if it wasn't for the "old" guard, there wouldn't be an event at all. But enough with this, gl hf to all the participants
On December 17 2017 03:12 ReachTheSky wrote: If this event is successful, it's only going to urge twitch to continue to support the oldboys club. That's not what the scene wants. The scene wants real competition and EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Watching the same old people gets stale extremely fast. Players should have to constantly fight to retain their status. The pie is limited. Drowning out everyone else by limiting events to the old boys club does not grow the scene. The only purpose that behavior serves is to protect the status for those within the old boys club and line their pockets from sponsors. Supporting this event goes against everything the scene wants. I love BW but I cannot support this event.
Edit: This "event" is nothing more than a promotional event for the individuals listed.
There are plenty of other sponsors out there besides Twitch. So what if all of Twitch's BW events are like this? It keeps interest in BW alive. You sound like the hardcore sports fans who think that resources going to fantasy is somehow bad for sports. If all the fantasy shows, web sites, social media buzz, etc, didn't exist, all those resources wouldn't be going to the sports instead. Fantasy draws in people who otherwise wouldn't have watched the sport at all and it prevents people from not watching when they've lost interest in the sport itself. It provides those benefits to the sport while generating its own resources. Likewise, events like this are beneficial to the kind of events you want. It's just that there is no one putting together the events that you want. It's not Twitch's fault.
If you had already organized a merit-based tournament and it was coming soon, I'm sure it'd get some mentions during this event's stream and it'd massively benefit from this event. You could probably get retweets for your event from Day[9], iNc, Artosis, etc. And those retweets would yield better results because those guys had been doing these BW events as opposed to not being involved in BW at all. And your tournament would get more attention, have more viewers and more success and showcase the skills of the players you support to more people. Just free promotion, piggybacking off other people's work.
But absent any initiative or work on your part, that's all that's left is for you to complain that Twitch isn't giving you a direct handout.
Anyway, I'm off to practice some BW. This event is gonna be a lot of fun.
You shouldn't insinuate that i'm complaining that twitch isn't giving me a direct handout. No where did I even come off like that. I was very specific and clear with my words and was very direct with my explanation. Next time you want to try and spin the narrative, at least make sense instead of making stuff up. You lost my respect and i'll no longer be subscribing to you on twitch or donating to you.
I support any BW event and I'll be sure to tune in. The only problem is that I feel there's a limited amount of money and opportunity to draw people in. Having only a few tournaments ... well ... we gotta make the most out of them. Seeing out of shape players isn't going to help anyone.
I believe that's why some people, myself included, wanted to see top players. Because they could deliver spectacular games, feet-on-keyboard included. No disrespect to the invited guys, but the top active players could probably fool around and have show matches at a higher level. That's the only problem.
I'm not asking for a 12 week qualifier and a tournament with 10x costs. I want BW to be well represented by some of the best in the game. I think the guys at Zotac or Twitch might not know who guys like Eon are. Thus, they'd need some help regarding picking the players. Why they aren't given that help/advice ... I'm not sure.
On December 17 2017 04:11 deus_073 wrote: I support any BW event and I'll be sure to tune in. The only problem is that I feel there's a limited amount of money and opportunity to draw people in. Having only a few tournaments ... well ... we gotta make the most out of them. Seeing out of shape players isn't going to help anyone.
I believe that's why some people, myself included, wanted to see top players. Because they could deliver spectacular games, feet-on-keyboard included. No disrespect to the invited guys, but the top active players could probably fool around and have show matches at a higher level. That's the only problem.
I'm not asking for a 12 week qualifier and a tournament with 10x costs. I want BW to be well represented by some of the best in the game. I think the guys at Zotac or Twitch might not know who guys like Eon are. Thus, they'd need some help regarding picking the players. Why they aren't given that help/advice ... I'm not sure.
This why everything should be open qualifiers. Results will show who is worthy.
this is an event to promote a game we all love if you want to chose who is in the tournament host one yourself and pick the players you want i could host a tour for 10 grand and pick nothing but d rank guys because its my tour my choice its just going to help get more activity and interest in the game
I'm not hating on this event, but I really disagree with characterizing bw fans as toxic for advocating for the players who we see grinding to get better (a group that includes a few of the players invited to the tournament).
It's totally fair to have an event that isn't focused on showcasing top foreign competition, but it does rub me the wrong way a bit that the winner of this tournament will have earned more money in a single tournament than most top foreign players have earned in many, many years of competing. Zotac probably did a good job of balancing the two competing interests by having half the prize pool dedicated to players who participated through qualification and half the prize for players participating by invite.
I also want to mention that people who have been playing broodwar in online competitions for the last several years will always be at a disadvantage in terms of camera-readiness because they did not have the LAN exposure that SC2 players did, to say nothing of whatever media training progaming teams might have offered. That's no one's fault, but the disparity certainly won't close if they continue to only get chances in online tournaments.
On December 17 2017 03:12 ReachTheSky wrote: If this event is successful, it's only going to urge twitch to continue to support the oldboys club. That's not what the scene wants. The scene wants real competition and EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Watching the same old people gets stale extremely fast. Players should have to constantly fight to retain their status. The pie is limited. Drowning out everyone else by limiting events to the old boys club does not grow the scene. The only purpose that behavior serves is to protect the status for those within the old boys club and line their pockets from sponsors. Supporting this event goes against everything the scene wants. I love BW but I cannot support this event.
Edit: This "event" is nothing more than a promotional event for the individuals listed.
There are plenty of other sponsors out there besides Twitch. So what if all of Twitch's BW events are like this? It keeps interest in BW alive. You sound like the hardcore sports fans who think that resources going to fantasy is somehow bad for sports. If all the fantasy shows, web sites, social media buzz, etc, didn't exist, all those resources wouldn't be going to the sports instead. Fantasy draws in people who otherwise wouldn't have watched the sport at all and it prevents people from not watching when they've lost interest in the sport itself. It provides those benefits to the sport while generating its own resources. Likewise, events like this are beneficial to the kind of events you want. It's just that there is no one putting together the events that you want. It's not Twitch's fault.
If you had already organized a merit-based tournament and it was coming soon,I'm sure it'd get some mentions during this event's stream and it'd massively benefit from this event. You could probably get retweets for your event from Day[9], iNc, Artosis, etc. And those retweets would yield better results because those guys had been doing these BW events as opposed to not being involved in BW at all. And your tournament would get more attention, have more viewers and more success and showcase the skills of the players you support to more people. Just free promotion, piggybacking off other people's work.
But absent any initiative or work on your part, that's all that's left is for you to complain that Twitch isn't giving you a direct handout.
Anyway, I'm off to practice some BW. This event is gonna be a lot of fun.
Hi Nony,
I've been hosting and running tournaments a number of weeks now and I would continue to do so even if 1 person watched. I enjoy running events and casting them, because I love this game and while I don't see foreign broodwar was the top echelon and it likely never will be I still love watching it. I would like to counteract the point you made in saying that if I was to say tweet at you about my events or anything like that, why would you even care? I open my events to everyone, but the prize pools are a lot smaller, but they exist. Why would you even bother dignifying me with a response let alone want to promote my event? With yourself perhaps it's slightly different, but for someone like Artosis, Tasteless or Day9 I'd argue they're pretty famous on the internet and people from lots of different games will know who they are and care. I'm almost certain Sean gets spammed by thousands of people asking him about small events every day. He's not going to really even have the time to look at them.
I hope you can understand that the reason these players are getting frustrated is the fact that all they have is events like mine. Tournament organisers, the bigger ones invite people who maybe not as good at the game purely on the basis they were popular before and they know that will give them higher chances at a higher viewership. I understand entirely why they do that, it's a business and while I disagree with the fact you tell people to go to other games where the money is rather than make BW bigger, I do understand why you likely feel that way. Is it not right that the "old boys" who are benefitting from these events should at least make an effort to speak to the current community (and yes I know this thread isn't going so well) and see what you guys can do to help smaller tournaments and make the situation better for top players today?
Like for instance I have a tournament on the 23rd of December which will be the 13th weekly I've run. It's ran purely off the back of generous donations and the prize pool overall has totalled over $1400, which while it isn't a lot compared to this event it's better than nothing. Why do you think the people you've mentioned previously would even care to look at the events to begin with, let alone promote them?
The way to actually promote BW is to show that it can pay to actually play the game. These tournaments just foster "you should have been there to buddy up. Too late, but hope you enjoy our entertainment."
I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's really indicative of what BW has always been about. I once qualified for the final 4 of a WCG qualifer. There was no bracket or time given out, yet. Sheth and Nyoken decided to "MAKE THEIR OWN BRACKET" and time up, and not inform me nor the other guy (non old boys club member). They just played against each other to decide who would go to the USA finals...
The final 4 was supposed to be randomized; ie., no way to know who you should be playing until the admin made the bracket. It was the biggest joke to ever happen in esports. But, since it benefited the "old guard," it was viewed as the most legit thing ever. Totally normal and kosher. That's the kind of power that tl.net wielded over tournaments and the community. They do w/e they feel like, and if you're not apart of the buddy system, then you're a noob compared to us and you don't even deserve to play in things you qualified for.
When I think of SC 2, the only time that ever seemed worth playing was when practically every country had their own WCS. Argentina, Brazil, etc, etc. Unfortunately, when things aren't done properly or there stops being enough money for it, then you end up with this and trying to twist how what benefits the same people, over and over, is actually for a broader good.
I'm not trying to hate. Just, I can understand why the "new age" people could feel a certain way. At the end of the day, if people like Nony actually had a reason to play BW, then he would qualify, anyways.
BW is pretty much just propaganda, though. My friends are funnier than the rest. They're better players. Better personalities. We leak rainbows, thus... ofc all of the events are for us. It's a monopoly where the unknown or non buddy is just treated as inferior. GL to those who play now.
I feel like there is a sizable portion of the community (including myself) that don't really care about the old foreign BW scene. Many of us started playing BW a bit on the later side and played it all through the sc2 period despite the fact that the scene was barely alive. This means that our connection and interest to the scene was formed while all these various casters and personalities were away trying to be successful in sc2. I don't want to speak too much for others but at least for me personally, just seeing a handful of oldschool foreigners and personalities doesn't really have any appeal.
It would be nice to see more content centered around the players who have been more recently relevant.
On December 17 2017 04:53 playa wrote: The way to actually promote BW is to show that it can pay to actually play the game. These tournaments just foster "you should have been there to buddy up. Too late, but hope you enjoy our entertainment."
I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's really indicative of what BW has always been about. I once qualified for the final 4 of a WCG qualifer. There was no bracket or time given out, yet. Sheth and Nyoken decided to "MAKE THEIR OWN BRACKET" and time up, and not inform me and the other guy (non old boys club member). They just played against each other to decide who would go to the USA finals...
The final 4 was supposed to be randomized; ie., no way to know who you should be playing until the admin made the bracket. It was the biggest joke to ever happen in esports. But, since it benefited the "old guard," it was viewed as the most legit thing ever. Totally normal and kosher. That's the kind of power that tl.net wielded over tournaments and the community. They do w/e they feel like, and if you're not apart of the buddy system, then you're a noob compared to us and you don't even deserve to play in things you qualified for.
When I think of SC 2, the only time that ever seemed worth playing was when practically every country had their own WCS. Argentina, Brazil, etc, etc. Unfortunately, when things aren't done properly or there stops being enough money for it, then you end up with this and trying to twist how what benefits the same people, over and over, is actually for a broader good.
I'm not trying to hate. Just, I can understand why the "new age" people could feel a certain way. At the end of the day, if people like Nony actually had a reason to play BW, then he would qualify, anyways.
BW is pretty much just propaganda, though. My friends are funnier than the rest. They're better players. Better personalities. We leak rainbows, thus... ofc all of the events are for us. It's a monopoly where the unknown or non buddy is just treated as inferior. GL to those who play now.
Truth bombs right here. Message to Twitch-Just remember that this formula for running the scene provides no incentives for people to play the game or even promote it. It only benefits the oldboy's club and does not benefit the community on a greater scale. All this manages to do is make others feel like outsiders and not apart of the community. This is why new blood is few and far between. This causes the community to shrink and ultimately caused people not to want to tune in. This is just one of the huge contributing factors as to why the SC2 scene plateaued after being into existence for 2 years. You know what they say though, those who choose to ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
Remember, Businesses thrive when they are inclusive. Excluding the community is not good for business.
It would have been best to run an event where a small selection of the most popular personalities were commentating the event with the rest of the event open to everyone to compete in. The personalities who are commentating draw in the viewership and everyone gets to participate. It's a win/win situation.
I'm guessing Bonyth, Eonzerg, Sziky, Dewalt, Trutacz etc weren't invited due to budget related reasons. (Cost of flights mostly?) Aren't Jaeyun, Nony and KawaiiRice all in the SoCal area? If so, that would help further confirm my previous thought. No offense to those three, but I would have much rather seen Michael and Dragon invited due to their recent performances in Zotac. I watch and support a lot of BW streams but I'm not so sure I'll be tuning into this. I've been around since 1998 Starcraft Vanilla, and while I enjoy most of the comedy that the old school casters/players bring to the table, I have no interest in watching them play. The skill level just isn't there... Artosis is the most active out of all of the old schoolers and it's hard to watch him battle it out against 2000 MMR players. Draco would be the only reason for me to tune into this.
On December 17 2017 03:12 ReachTheSky wrote: If this event is successful, it's only going to urge twitch to continue to support the oldboys club. That's not what the scene wants. The scene wants real competition and EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Watching the same old people gets stale extremely fast. Players should have to constantly fight to retain their status. The pie is limited. Drowning out everyone else by limiting events to the old boys club does not grow the scene. The only purpose that behavior serves is to protect the status for those within the old boys club and line their pockets from sponsors. Supporting this event goes against everything the scene wants. I love BW but I cannot support this event.
Edit: This "event" is nothing more than a promotional event for the individuals listed.
There are plenty of other sponsors out there besides Twitch. So what if all of Twitch's BW events are like this? It keeps interest in BW alive. You sound like the hardcore sports fans who think that resources going to fantasy is somehow bad for sports. If all the fantasy shows, web sites, social media buzz, etc, didn't exist, all those resources wouldn't be going to the sports instead. Fantasy draws in people who otherwise wouldn't have watched the sport at all and it prevents people from not watching when they've lost interest in the sport itself. It provides those benefits to the sport while generating its own resources. Likewise, events like this are beneficial to the kind of events you want. It's just that there is no one putting together the events that you want. It's not Twitch's fault.
If you had already organized a merit-based tournament and it was coming soon, I'm sure it'd get some mentions during this event's stream and it'd massively benefit from this event. You could probably get retweets for your event from Day[9], iNc, Artosis, etc. And those retweets would yield better results because those guys had been doing these BW events as opposed to not being involved in BW at all. And your tournament would get more attention, have more viewers and more success and showcase the skills of the players you support to more people. Just free promotion, piggybacking off other people's work.
But absent any initiative or work on your part, that's all that's left is for you to complain that Twitch isn't giving you a direct handout.
Anyway, I'm off to practice some BW. This event is gonna be a lot of fun.
Tbh, I think it's easy for you to talk about it so "pragmatically" as you put it because you're the party thats benefiting from the event. Everyone else gets to watch and see how much of a joke foreign StarCraft is skill wise. There's little chance that this will result in more events.
No one is arguing against day9 and artosis being there because we all know that they draw in viewers. We're debating the merit of you being there (I mean no disrespect by it, you're just no where near the top skill wise). It's like if TSL2 was invite only and you couldn't participate because the organization decided you weren't noteworthy enough before the start of the tournament. You would have been outraged I imagine...
Tbh, the organizers would have been better off for viewership hosting a Korean invitational, tastosis already in Korea it would be easy. Just need to get Day9 there.
As sad as it is, there is not much point in hosting a tournament with "top foreigners" in BW. Very few people are going to take interest in it anyway. The fact that oldschool personalities of the scene draw more attention and viewers than the top players, show how much this game suffers outside of Korea.
Some people in our scene just have to realize that "good foreigners" aren't popular. If you want to watch good players, watch the Koreans and make the best out of it that way.
Twitch probably see this aswell, that's why they are doing this as a fun thing that you can tune into and entertain yourself if you so please.
Unfortunately the fat kid can't defend himself with jokes, nothing like conning the sponsor into thinking the fat kid is a top player and the invites are top too, easy money, easy promotion for them, not so good for bw. Sooner or later every sponsor is going to see how it is.
with the pros and commentators who know the game best
Definitely happy with the invite, it's remastered, so it's nice to see the old names. Honestly I have no idea about any of the supposed to be top players at all. That would not draw my viewership
I think InControl has a point here and so does everyone else, but voicing concerns about not getting invited in every thread is plain pointless I think. At least InControl takes the trouble and speaks out, but -as he pointed out- who gets invited or not is not up to him. Do you see the other guys posting here, besides Inc? Where is Artosis, Tasteless? It seems to me they left the roots of this community a time ago from this perspective, but this is maybe not true - and they aren`t posting becaue of the reactions are harsh, I don`t know, I`m not here to judge.
I think having a tournament like this is fun (never heard of jaeyun but if he was famous with ucsd and he s fun i mea n why not?) but we shoud also get more "normal" tournaments where people like eon can go too.
Im going to tune into this event, and im happy its happening because I love BW and I think the more BW events the better, even if they are ones I dont participate in or particularly care for the format. Any SCR events whatsoever should be good for the community. That being said, im personally only interested in the competitive 1v1 SCR games so thats what ill be tuning in for.
I think its important to consider what the host/sponsors actually intended for the event, and in this case it appears to me that its a lot less serious than something like the Zotac or ESL tournaments were, otherwise surely there would have been qualifiers, and the games wouldnt have been divided into 1v1/2v2/3v3/bgh/ffa whatever, and also SC2 games, not just SCR afaik. So in this case it seems players wouldve been picked based on their ability to play both games, draw in viewers, and not cost too much or at all to fly around. Maybe some of the choices couldve been better, maybe not. I doubt whoever is in charge is a retard, there were surely multiple factors going into each consideration.
Personally Id love to see more big offline events like Zotac or ESL (preferably with more qualification spots in the case of ESL), or online events similar to TSL/TLS, with less of a focus on invites and more on qualification and top level foreign competition. The Twitch Holiday Bash isnt any of those though, and I really dont think it should be treated as if it tried to be and failed utterly.
Im super thankful to have had the opportunity to play in Zotac, and I realize that some players like eon have had a less easy time to participate in something like that despite having the skill (ESL with only 2 spots for all of europe minus italy is pretty harsh) and might feel jealous or excluded. I probably would too, but I think we should direct energy towards making more events happen rather than criticizing ones that are already happening. At the same time, maybe the organizers at twitch are misinformed about what would draw in the most viewers, and having some feedback would be beneficial also? I dont know, I just hope that its a success which leads to more investment in SCR in general.
I'm just happy to have events like this in 2017. I'm sympathetic with the top foreign players who aren't getting into these events and I hope they get a chance to prove themselves as these events keep going on. I think for the people running these tournaments inviting old school players is an easy choice, they have some crossover recognition for the larger foreign sc2 audience or just name recognition from being in the community for so long.
I do think it is kind of sad that anyone new organizing stuff for foreign BW is met with a wall of complaints. Hosting events for foreign BW is not exactly a lucrative proposition.
At the risk of taking a ton of flak, let me give My Opinion™:
This is coming from the perspective of someone that thinks money is important, but not the most important thing in the world. I say this because people will inevitably say, "Whatever makes the most money", or "Why would Twitch want to make less money?". Something along those lines. However, to me, the thing that's really important is being true to the game. What bothers me is that Twitch did not decide to find out who the best players are, and attempt to bring some big names like Day9/tasteless/artosis in to cast. That way, they would have the best players, and the most-well-known casters. Unfortunately, this is not the route they took.
6,000 dollars is a lot of money. It may not seem that way if you're rich, but for someone who put in YEARS of hard practice, the prospect of winning that money doing something they have been very passionate about would be an amazing blessing to see. Unfortunately, Twitch has decided to spit in the face of everyone who has been practicing and playing Brood War at the top level while SC2 was sucking the life out of StarCraft. That includes Bonyth, Sziky, Trutacz, Marwin, Michael, Bakuryu, Dewalt, Cryoc, Djem5, eOnzErg, DragOn, and many, many more. A lot of other good players, like sas.Ace, Ramms, AlfiO, and others had to completely retire because there was no future from investing time into the game. The game is the reason we're all here and connected, so to pretend like the game doesn't matter would be incredibly disingenuous.
Now, do I believe these players are entitled to this money? No, of course not. Twitch can do whatever it wants with its money, but conversely, I also have the freedom to say that I highly disagree with Twitch's decision. They're bringing in Draco from Poland and White-Ra from Ukraine, but they can't give a ticket to Sziky? What kind of bullshit is that? And now -- and I'm very, very, very, very sorry to say this but -- most of the names on the list got famous off of SC2, and simply have a lot of twitch followers.
If we were to move forward from here, what would be required to become more united as a whole?
I feel most opinions have been voiced and that there's also come forth some suggestions as to what can be helpful. For instance, Qikz has made a pretty good point that all the "names" (f.ex. Day9) probably get so many requests for this or that, that simply asking for some retweets etc. doesn't necessarily lead to anything. However, iNcontroL has stated in this thread that he'd love to make sure more tournaments get some recognition.
So regardless of how it's been before, regardless of whether "we've always been ignored" or anything like that, this discussion have brought forth a lot of good. Assuming we can choose to use what we have here and then move forward. To nudge the discussion towards cooperation.
As I understand, both Qikz and Eywa- have/are arranging tournaments? And we also have Rus_Brain who might read this thread? Are there any others? As for the "names" in here, we have iNcontroL and Nony, at least. Are there others - silent or overlooked?
Would it be possible to talk it over and have some sort of cooperation? Not necessarily any big commitments, but at least something that's new. Progress. For instance, send a shoutout and say "hey, I'm making this tour - can you give some exposure?". If there's some sort of network arranged, then the organizers can contact "names" willing to help out, who'll then create awareness - maybe even take part directly.
If so, who'd be interested in something like that (from both sides)?
Maybe someone in a good position could even try to connect the skill based tournaments with sponsors who can bring more money on the table?
I fear if we keep going in circles, there won't be any progress - regardless of who's correct. When there's even some terminology used (f.ex. "oldboys club" etc.), the rethoric will get increasingly polarized and the division might become total. Please, for the love of Xel'Naga - break the circle!
Notice how the people who were invited are acting in this thread.
Notice how the people who weren't invited are acting in this thread.
Coincidence?
This is an event happening in California being organized by Twitch with people in the area hosting it. If you don't like the people/players involved or the prize pool or the location, instead of bashing players, getting angry, whining more about everything and it isn't helping get what you say you want (I think there's a solid argument that maybe these users just want to be negative and nothing else), then maybe you should try doing something differently.
Maybe you should try being supportive of events. Any events, at all, just once, and see how it goes. Maybe you should think about what's good for the community instead of what you want for yourself, and see how that turns out. Maybe you should try to actually do something instead of doing nothing but being negative on forums. Maybe you should try spreading the word on social media about BW/SCR with at least a neutral voice if somehow you are incapable of being positive. Maybe you should show your support for new talent without shitting all over the people making things happen.
Maybe just maybe one of those things will help your community.
This looks fun and I am happy I will get to watch it.
I empathize with everyone's position here regarding invites, it's a reasonable perspective, but I do wish it were more possible to just enjoy the tournaments at face value without everyone being so angry all the time.
On December 17 2017 08:44 blunderfulguy wrote: Notice how the people who were invited are acting in this thread.
Notice how the people who weren't invited are acting in this thread.
Coincidence?
This is an event happening in California being organized by Twitch with people in the area hosting it. If you don't like the people/players involved or the prize pool or the location, instead of bashing players, getting angry, whining more about everything and it isn't helping get what you say you want (I think there's a solid argument that maybe these users just want to be negative and nothing else), then maybe you should try doing something differently.
Maybe you should try being supportive of events. Any events, at all, just once, and see how it goes. Maybe you should think about what's good for the community instead of what you want for yourself, and see how that turns out. Maybe you should try to actually do something instead of doing nothing but being negative on forums. Maybe you should try spreading the word on social media about BW/SCR with at least a neutral voice if somehow you are incapable of being positive. Maybe you should show your support for new talent without shitting all over the people making things happen.
Maybe just maybe one of those things will help your community.
On December 17 2017 08:44 blunderfulguy wrote: Notice how the people who were invited are acting in this thread.
Notice how the people who weren't invited are acting in this thread.
Coincidence?
This is an event happening in California being organized by Twitch with people in the area hosting it. If you don't like the people/players involved or the prize pool or the location, instead of bashing players, getting angry, whining more about everything and it isn't helping get what you say you want (I think there's a solid argument that maybe these users just want to be negative and nothing else), then maybe you should try doing something differently.
Maybe you should try being supportive of events. Any events, at all, just once, and see how it goes. Maybe you should think about what's good for the community instead of what you want for yourself, and see how that turns out. Maybe you should try to actually do something instead of doing nothing but being negative on forums. Maybe you should try spreading the word on social media about BW/SCR with at least a neutral voice if somehow you are incapable of being positive. Maybe you should show your support for new talent without shitting all over the people making things happen.
Maybe just maybe one of those things will help your community.
lol all your posts are in SC2 forums except when you drop in here to lecture people. What the fuck do you care about BW and the community surrounding it? I'm sure you're excited about this event though given that it consists of almost all people who made their careers in SC2.
On December 17 2017 08:44 blunderfulguy wrote: Notice how the people who were invited are acting in this thread.
Notice how the people who weren't invited are acting in this thread.
Coincidence?
This is an event happening in California being organized by Twitch with people in the area hosting it. If you don't like the people/players involved or the prize pool or the location, instead of bashing players, getting angry, whining more about everything and it isn't helping get what you say you want (I think there's a solid argument that maybe these users just want to be negative and nothing else), then maybe you should try doing something differently.
Maybe you should try being supportive of events. Any events, at all, just once, and see how it goes. Maybe you should think about what's good for the community instead of what you want for yourself, and see how that turns out. Maybe you should try to actually do something instead of doing nothing but being negative on forums. Maybe you should try spreading the word on social media about BW/SCR with at least a neutral voice if somehow you are incapable of being positive. Maybe you should show your support for new talent without shitting all over the people making things happen.
Maybe just maybe one of those things will help your community.
Where is Sero's invite, then?
I don't think he knows who Sero is I also demand Sero gets invited! lol. Nice guy and good player all around. Could probably beat all those invited scrubs easy!
On December 17 2017 02:55 B-royal wrote: If it's just about fun games and cultivating a sense of comradery, why does it need a prize pool of 6 000 dollars?
This is clearly the reason why it stings for a lot of top foreigners.
Yeah this is the entire issue. foreign bw 'dies' in 2009, some players keep playing, get to a higher level, keep competing, but pretty much no tournament has more than $100 prize pool for the following 7 years. Then SC:R is released, you get two events with $20000+ prize pools and another with $6k, but they end up inviting players who quit in 2009 and are clearly worse than ones who kept playing.
I'm still gonna tune in for the event and enjoy it, but I totally get why eonzerg is disappointed - he gets to see players that are clearly worse than him win more than he has won in the past 6 years of gaming from one tournament, mostly just because they had a big name a long time ago. Stuff like 'boycott the event' or whatever seems entirely counter-productive and petty though, but I definitely sympathize and think it's kinda sad how the biggest prize pool events have had so many invites - and how the invites really have not corresponded with who the actual best players are.
I mean one of my own most fun bw experiences was being invited to a tournament because I was a community favorite despite there clearly being better candidates from a skill pov, and I didn't really respond well to negativity towards that back then.. I'm happy there's cool content being produced and I don't want to join in on the negativity.
But the fact is that with this tourney, post SC:R we're gonna have had 3 big tourneys for the nonkorean scene. Those three tourneys imo featured a grand total of 1 player who has consistently produced great results in nonkorean tournaments post-SC:R. (number would look slightly better if not for restrictive visa grants! ) It's not ideal, and I think it would have been amazing if there could have been a tourney with equal stakes but where the players were chosen based on current skill levels. The thing is though, that attacking this event, or the zotac americup, or the italian esports event, that's just a really stupid way of showing your sympathy with the group of best-and-continuously-overlooked-players. If anything what you want to go for is as much exposure as possible for all brood war content so that the crowd hosting get inspired to keep it up, and then hope there ends up being some tourneys with equal prize pools but more spots for qualifiers..
If you had already organized a merit-based tournament and it was coming soon, I'm sure it'd get some mentions during this event's stream and it'd massively benefit from this event. You could probably get retweets for your event from Day[9], iNc, Artosis, etc.
None were retweeted or supported, shout outed or whathaveyou by the people you are referring too. But let's look at the greater scheme of things beyond my incompetent attempts: where was the big support for the entire Teamliquid Legacy series? TLS 1 did not receive it in 2012 and TLS Champs didn't receive it in 2016.
I could link many more, and yeah i kinda makes sense to me that Broodwar wasn't the focus of Tastosis, Day9,Incontrol or you when SC2 was still flourishing. But if those folks wanted to bring some viewership to Broodwar, why didn't they earlier i wonder?
Well, let's not dwell on that.
On December 17 2017 01:55 iNcontroL wrote: Artosis and I are working on a show that talks about sc2 and bw. The angry folk in here.. help me when it comes around to show case the new top bw foreigner talent. I will give them a spotlight and try and help them out. Maybe we can raise money for an event? Showmatches? I'm down. I'd love to give eon and others a place to shine. This event however is not that place.
Sound good?
This is actually a pretty great idea and i'd be happy to help out anyway i can if you really intend to give those players a place to shine. I'm suprised you haven't received more positive feedback for this offer tbh. I think you're sometimes bewildered why people don't show you the respect you think you earn? Well, reaching out in this way would earn you the accolades in the eyes of many "hardcore players" here i think. I'd be down to hand you the 'purple heart with diamonds on a silver string' of BW-Elitists myself.
On December 17 2017 02:55 B-royal wrote: If it's just about fun games and cultivating a sense of comradery, why does it need a prize pool of 6 000 dollars?
This is clearly the reason why it stings for a lot of top foreigners.
Yeah this is the entire issue. foreign bw 'dies' in 2009, some players keep playing, get to a higher level, keep competing, but pretty much no tournament has more than $100 prize pool for the following 7 years. Then SC:R is released, you get two events with $20000+ prize pools and another with $6k, but they end up inviting players who quit in 2009 and are clearly worse than ones who kept playing.
I'm still gonna tune in for the event and enjoy it, but I totally get why eonzerg is disappointed - he gets to see players that are clearly worse than him win more than he has won in the past 6 years of gaming from one tournament, mostly just because they had a big name a long time ago. Stuff like 'boycott the event' or whatever seems entirely counter-productive and petty though, but I definitely sympathize and think it's kinda sad how the biggest prize pool events have had so many invites - and how the invites really have not corresponded with who the actual best players are.
I mean one of my own most fun bw experiences was being invited to a tournament because I was a community favorite despite there clearly being better candidates from a skill pov, and I didn't really respond well to negativity towards that back then.. I'm happy there's cool content being produced and I don't want to join in on the negativity.
But the fact is that with this tourney, post SC:R we're gonna have had 3 big tourneys for the nonkorean scene. Those three tourneys imo featured a grand total of 1 player who has consistently produced great results in nonkorean tournaments post-SC:R. (number would look slightly better if not for restrictive visa grants! ) It's not ideal, and I think it would have been amazing if there could have been a tourney with equal stakes but where the players were chosen based on current skill levels. The thing is though, that attacking this event, or the zotac americup, or the italian esports event, that's just a really stupid way of showing your sympathy with the group of best-and-continuously-overlooked-players. If anything what you want to go for is as much exposure as possible for all brood war content so that the crowd hosting get inspired to keep it up, and then hope there ends up being some tourneys with equal prize pools but more spots for qualifiers..
yeah boycotts are the wrong way to go. But at some point i just watch a foreigner stream because it gives me more enjoyment, if im looking for BW entertainment that day. Simple as that.
On December 17 2017 08:44 blunderfulguy wrote: Notice how the people who were invited are acting in this thread.
Notice how the people who weren't invited are acting in this thread.
Coincidence?
This is an event happening in California being organized by Twitch with people in the area hosting it. If you don't like the people/players involved or the prize pool or the location, instead of bashing players, getting angry, whining more about everything and it isn't helping get what you say you want (I think there's a solid argument that maybe these users just want to be negative and nothing else), then maybe you should try doing something differently.
Maybe you should try being supportive of events. Any events, at all, just once, and see how it goes. Maybe you should think about what's good for the community instead of what you want for yourself, and see how that turns out. Maybe you should try to actually do something instead of doing nothing but being negative on forums. Maybe you should try spreading the word on social media about BW/SCR with at least a neutral voice if somehow you are incapable of being positive. Maybe you should show your support for new talent without shitting all over the people making things happen.
Maybe just maybe one of those things will help your community.
lol all your posts are in SC2 forums except when you drop in here to lecture people. What the fuck do you care about BW and the community surrounding it? I'm sure you're excited about this event though given that it consists of almost all people who made their careers in SC2.
Oh I get it, I'm not allowed to be a part of your toxic community, darn.
On December 17 2017 02:55 B-royal wrote: If it's just about fun games and cultivating a sense of comradery, why does it need a prize pool of 6 000 dollars?
This is clearly the reason why it stings for a lot of top foreigners.
Yeah this is the entire issue. foreign bw 'dies' in 2009, some players keep playing, get to a higher level, keep competing, but pretty much no tournament has more than $100 prize pool for the following 7 years. Then SC:R is released, you get two events with $20000+ prize pools and another with $6k, but they end up inviting players who quit in 2009 and are clearly worse than ones who kept playing.
I'm still gonna tune in for the event and enjoy it, but I totally get why eonzerg is disappointed - he gets to see players that are clearly worse than him win more than he has won in the past 6 years of gaming from one tournament, mostly just because they had a big name a long time ago. Stuff like 'boycott the event' or whatever seems entirely counter-productive and petty though, but I definitely sympathize and think it's kinda sad how the biggest prize pool events have had so many invites - and how the invites really have not corresponded with who the actual best players are.
I mean one of my own most fun bw experiences was being invited to a tournament because I was a community favorite despite there clearly being better candidates from a skill pov, and I didn't really respond well to negativity towards that back then.. I'm happy there's cool content being produced and I don't want to join in on the negativity.
But the fact is that with this tourney, post SC:R we're gonna have had 3 big tourneys for the nonkorean scene. Those three tourneys imo featured a grand total of 1 player who has consistently produced great results in nonkorean tournaments post-SC:R. (number would look slightly better if not for restrictive visa grants! ) It's not ideal, and I think it would have been amazing if there could have been a tourney with equal stakes but where the players were chosen based on current skill levels. The thing is though, that attacking this event, or the zotac americup, or the italian esports event, that's just a really stupid way of showing your sympathy with the group of best-and-continuously-overlooked-players. If anything what you want to go for is as much exposure as possible for all brood war content so that the crowd hosting get inspired to keep it up, and then hope there ends up being some tourneys with equal prize pools but more spots for qualifiers..
yeah boycotts are the wrong way to go. But at some point i just watch a foreigner stream because it gives me more enjoyment, if im looking for BW entertainment that day. Simple as that.
For me it's not so much a boycott as it is doing something else that I will enjoy more. I don't watch all brood war events. For instance, I don't particularly like sktl or CFC (do to their allowance of Koreans), but I watch when I can... And have nothing else to do.
For ZOTAC I watched most of the event from mobile despite my other plans because I was interested in a major LAN that featured Hawk, DragOn and Michael. Players who actually had to show their merits in qualifiers and who deserved to be there.
On December 17 2017 09:35 Liquid`Drone wrote: The thing is though, that attacking this event, or the zotac americup, or the italian esports event, that's just a really stupid way of showing your sympathy with the group of best-and-continuously-overlooked-players.
You forget that showing the world you care more about something is to hate on people who also care about the thing in the most crude way possible. If anything, the BW community made this behaviour an art of its own. It's the new "I'm vegan" or the new "I do crossfit" and way more 2018 than "ICCup admins are fascists".
wow, now I kind of applaud the organizers for being the new targets. you go girls!
On December 17 2017 08:09 Incomplete..ReV wrote: If we were to move forward from here, what would be required to become more united as a whole?
I feel most opinions have been voiced and that there's also come forth some suggestions as to what can be helpful. For instance, Qikz has made a pretty good point that all the "names" (f.ex. Day9) probably get so many requests for this or that, that simply asking for some retweets etc. doesn't necessarily lead to anything. However, iNcontroL has stated in this thread that he'd love to make sure more tournaments get some recognition.
So regardless of how it's been before, regardless of whether "we've always been ignored" or anything like that, this discussion have brought forth a lot of good. Assuming we can choose to use what we have here and then move forward. To nudge the discussion towards cooperation.
As I understand, both Qikz and Eywa- have/are arranging tournaments? And we also have Rus_Brain who might read this thread? Are there any others? As for the "names" in here, we have iNcontroL and Nony, at least. Are there others - silent or overlooked?
Would it be possible to talk it over and have some sort of cooperation? Not necessarily any big commitments, but at least something that's new. Progress. For instance, send a shoutout and say "hey, I'm making this tour - can you give some exposure?". If there's some sort of network arranged, then the organizers can contact "names" willing to help out, who'll then create awareness - maybe even take part directly.
If so, who'd be interested in something like that (from both sides)?
Maybe someone in a good position could even try to connect the skill based tournaments with sponsors who can bring more money on the table?
I fear if we keep going in circles, there won't be any progress - regardless of who's correct. When there's even some terminology used (f.ex. "oldboys club" etc.), the rethoric will get increasingly polarized and the division might become total. Please, for the love of Xel'Naga - break the circle!
To be honest, I think incontrol (and artosis) is probably the best person to build trust there because everyone else that we're talking about (personalities) have 0 activity in the community.
I think ZOTAC is a great example of a missed opportunity in this regard, none of the casters had any knowledge about the players, it's like they were nobodies... Yet Michael and DragOn are two of the most prominent figures since StarCraft 2. It's not that they would even have had to do a lot of research, the ZOTAC organization had gotten this information from community members, it was all there in an easy to read 1 page per player type thing.
The thing is, there are great opportunities every day to get more involved and better understanding of the current scene, it's not just about giving shout outs to whoever asks or seems important either. I'd love to see some of the personalities from this co-casted with Sayle, or help get funding for events.
As far as cooperation goes (from both sides), there's not much that I can offer other than my vocal support and assistance in knowledge about "new school" players. Tbh, anyone who wants to show their support for the new top level scene and people who've been involved in it kind of have to do it with no anticipated return...
Having tournaments with decent prize pools is better than having no tournaments at all, or tournaments with max $100 prize pools like BW was before remastered.
That said, the Korean scene has been fairly good about trying to promote opportunities for new players so that the scene can survive if the current most popular players move on. (which is already happening with Bisu going to the military)
And in the foreign scene, there are already many new (post SC2-era) players that are better than the most popular players, which isn't entirely true in Korea yet.
So try to understand why people might be disappointed by this announcement instead of shitting on them, calling them ungrateful, etc.
On December 17 2017 05:01 puppykiller wrote: I feel like there is a sizable portion of the community (including myself) that don't really care about the old foreign BW scene. Many of us started playing BW a bit on the later side and played it all through the sc2 period despite the fact that the scene was barely alive. This means that our connection and interest to the scene was formed while all these various casters and personalities were away trying to be successful in sc2. I don't want to speak too much for others but at least for me personally, just seeing a handful of oldschool foreigners and personalities doesn't really have any appeal.
It would be nice to see more content centered around the players who have been more recently relevant.
On December 17 2017 02:43 NonY wrote: Some really out-of-touch perspectives being revealed in these comments...
Twitch has done and continues to do plenty of work for competitive, legit esports events. But Twitch is also about community and simply having fun playing games. This event is more of the latter despite the games being legit esports games. The audience looking for legit non-Korean BW competitions is so small now. There are more people who would like to be entertained by Day[9] and friends than people who are interested in seeing top foreigner BW players compete.
If you're a fan of StarCraft, you should be happy that this event is StarCraft-themed rather than some other theme. I know it may seem like this event is misguided, but if that's how you feel, then the truth is that your preferences are in a very small minority and this event wasn't designed exactly for you.
Top BW players: I absolutely respect your hobby and the skill you've achieved, but at some point you must be at peace with the fact that your dedication to BW means that you are playing the game you prefer rather than playing the most competitive game. It is silly to bemoan the fact that the people responsible for organizing successful events are not putting faith in "top foreigner BW tournament" as a hot item in 2017. If you truly seek competition, there are better games to play than BW. If you keep practicing and waiting, I'm sure something will come along for BW, but the scene is very unlikely to flourish. It never really did outside of Korea even before SC2, not in the way you're hoping it will now.
I sincerely hope people continue to play BW competitively for their own fulfillment and enjoyment. But for the most talented players who continue to practice hard and hope for some kind of payoff or career in gaming, you ought to switch games. I wouldn't even suggest SC2. Play one of the actually big esports. If it's not about money and career, then organize your own competitions, just for the sake of fun and competition. That's what the people participating in this event did for years. The fact that is it essentially free to stream/broadcast an event now already puts you lightyears ahead of us back then. Hell, people were doing events before there were replays. The only way people heard about the games was from play-by-play reports written by observers. Look at this shit: http://classic.battle.net/scc/br/
A negative attitude toward events like this is not helpful. Events like this help foster a bigger potential audience for a serious tournament in the future. When it comes, if it's not successful, another event will be even less likely. You might be better off in the long run by having events like this first to set up the success of the event you want.
Have a positive attitude and enjoy this event for what it is. I think it will be a lot of fun. I know most of you will have fun and it's just the vocal minority that want to have their voices heard in this thread. But I truly hope they can come around and enjoy this event too.
edit: Just to be perfectly clear about my most pragmatic and useful advice for the people who want a purely merit-based foreigner BW event: It benefits you for this event to be as successful as possible. The success of this event increases the chances you get what you want. I know you're disappointed that this event isn't the event you want, but refusing to support it and having a negative attitude towards it does not help you! Your preferences are already known. You don't need to express your preferences via negative posts and boycotts. You need to build up interest in BW any way you can, including making this event a success. It is virtually inevitable that the event you want will happen and in the meantime you need to behave in a way that maximizes the chances of that event being a success when it does happen. Don't fill Twitch chat, etc, with negativity! Embrace everyone and whatever attention this event brings and plan for the future.
This is an excellent post, these are obviously things you've spent time thinking about. And, the points you've made here are very similar to my thoughts.
One thing I want to mention is: I truly respect everyone currently playing BW competitively. I watch eOn's stream extremely frequently and I try my best to support the community. I do hope for more competitive events to be hosted. But, I agree with NonY that the target audience for such an event is very small. Probably limited to TL posters or close to it at this point. If we want to get more people to watch, enjoy and appreciate BW, we need to show the FUN side of the game. Understanding and appreciating the skill that goes into BW isn't something that your average gamer can appreciate. A bunch of people laughing and having a good time and joking around with each other is something that will draw people in and interest them. It gives them something that might pique their interest in playing the game and draw them into the community.
On the other hand, the kind of outrage that people are showing in this thread, after the Larva incident, in Twitch chat and on the bnet forums is the type of thing that will drive people away. I've loved Starcraft since it was released, I haven't played that whole time but it has always been a "part" of me (for lack of better terminology). And, despite how much I love the game and was enjoying it when it first came out, reading threads on Teamliquid in particular have pretty much caused me to lose all interest, purely due to the negativity of the community. If it's capable of having that kind of impact on someone who already loves the game, I hate to imagine what it would be like for someone who watches an event like this, or Zotac, enjoys it and wants to go converse with others who watched it, then stumbles into nothing but negativity and outrage.
On December 17 2017 02:43 NonY wrote: Some really out-of-touch perspectives being revealed in these comments...
Twitch has done and continues to do plenty of work for competitive, legit esports events. But Twitch is also about community and simply having fun playing games. This event is more of the latter despite the games being legit esports games. The audience looking for legit non-Korean BW competitions is so small now. There are more people who would like to be entertained by Day[9] and friends than people who are interested in seeing top foreigner BW players compete.
If you're a fan of StarCraft, you should be happy that this event is StarCraft-themed rather than some other theme. I know it may seem like this event is misguided, but if that's how you feel, then the truth is that your preferences are in a very small minority and this event wasn't designed exactly for you.
Top BW players: I absolutely respect your hobby and the skill you've achieved, but at some point you must be at peace with the fact that your dedication to BW means that you are playing the game you prefer rather than playing the most competitive game. It is silly to bemoan the fact that the people responsible for organizing successful events are not putting faith in "top foreigner BW tournament" as a hot item in 2017. If you truly seek competition, there are better games to play than BW. If you keep practicing and waiting, I'm sure something will come along for BW, but the scene is very unlikely to flourish. It never really did outside of Korea even before SC2, not in the way you're hoping it will now.
I sincerely hope people continue to play BW competitively for their own fulfillment and enjoyment. But for the most talented players who continue to practice hard and hope for some kind of payoff or career in gaming, you ought to switch games. I wouldn't even suggest SC2. Play one of the actually big esports. If it's not about money and career, then organize your own competitions, just for the sake of fun and competition. That's what the people participating in this event did for years. The fact that is it essentially free to stream/broadcast an event now already puts you lightyears ahead of us back then. Hell, people were doing events before there were replays. The only way people heard about the games was from play-by-play reports written by observers. Look at this shit: http://classic.battle.net/scc/br/
A negative attitude toward events like this is not helpful. Events like this help foster a bigger potential audience for a serious tournament in the future. When it comes, if it's not successful, another event will be even less likely. You might be better off in the long run by having events like this first to set up the success of the event you want.
Have a positive attitude and enjoy this event for what it is. I think it will be a lot of fun. I know most of you will have fun and it's just the vocal minority that want to have their voices heard in this thread. But I truly hope they can come around and enjoy this event too.
edit: Just to be perfectly clear about my most pragmatic and useful advice for the people who want a purely merit-based foreigner BW event: It benefits you for this event to be as successful as possible. The success of this event increases the chances you get what you want. I know you're disappointed that this event isn't the event you want, but refusing to support it and having a negative attitude towards it does not help you! Your preferences are already known. You don't need to express your preferences via negative posts and boycotts. You need to build up interest in BW any way you can, including making this event a success. It is virtually inevitable that the event you want will happen and in the meantime you need to behave in a way that maximizes the chances of that event being a success when it does happen. Don't fill Twitch chat, etc, with negativity! Embrace everyone and whatever attention this event brings and plan for the future.
This is an excellent post, these are obviously things you've spent time thinking about. And, the points you've made here are very similar to my thoughts.
One thing I want to mention is: I truly respect everyone currently playing BW competitively. I watch eOn's stream extremely frequently and I try my best to support the community. I do hope for more competitive events to be hosted. But, I agree with NonY that the target audience for such an event is very small. Probably limited to TL posters or close to it at this point. If we want to get more people to watch, enjoy and appreciate BW, we need to show the FUN side of the game. Understanding and appreciating the skill that goes into BW isn't something that your average gamer can appreciate. A bunch of people laughing and having a good time and joking around with each other is something that will draw people in and interest them. It gives them something that might pique their interest in playing the game and draw them into the community.
You know what, you're right. When it comes down to it, StarCraft is just about having fun and community. I think when people just see a bunch of old friends coming together to play some friendly games, laugh, and just have a good time, it's going to bring them in. All this drama really isn't necessary. There will be more events in the future, and this is just a fun, end-of-the-year casual type of event and nobody should feel left out if
On December 16 2017 08:51 GTR wrote: $6,000 prize pool.
I'm not sold on a "target audience" thing. There isn't a SC 2 streamer atm (time of post) with 500 viewers or more. And that's supposed to be the "bigger game." Let's be honest: Day[9], himself, is the draw. Day[9] is bigger than either game.
If you want to maximize audience (not target friends of tl.net who aren't already at the event), then you could have C rank players and simply say "Day9 will be competing and commentating." That would get more viewers than current rendition.
"Half the people" only even got into starcraft cause of day[9]. It's like being the bat boy for the Yankees and being like "this model involving myself is the ticket. It's 50% me, at least."
Day[9] is the best American player ever (not factoring in unfair Korean adv for Idra). It's like having the 90's squad bulls comeback for a game, but Michael Jordan will only commentate it, while the role players of the 90's play. Tilting.
Since I can't send pms: Day[9] is way too humble, imo, in terms of his skill, and others way overrate their ability in relation. Day[9] isn't just the best American, but by far the best non Korean I've ever played. The guy treated the game like rocket science, while other nerds were gleefully ignoring tons of flaws. It's really not a comparison. Even without going to Korea, he was still almost at the level of peak Idra.
Aseem and Froz kinda moved on to other things before the skill level of everyone was all that high. Assem seemed like just another guy, outside of T vs Z. Froz... probably had as much potential as just about anyone. But, that's the problem: other things to do.
Its the same reason why all the Marvel movies are making a killing, because they bring back comic book heros that we were emotionally attached to during our childhood, in IMAX 3D HD!!.
Just like how these tournaments allows us to watch our foreigner heroes of the past (Nony, White-RA, Inc, Draco) compete in this brand new remastered game! I will definitely watch this to relive my old memories.
If you want to watch the absolute best at the game duking it out (flash, bisu, larva..etc), watch ASL instead!
On December 17 2017 03:21 iNcontroL wrote: Thankfully reachthesky doesn't actually speak for the community. Can you imagine if he did? Woof!
Anyways... gonna be fun. I'm going to stop trying to talk sense to people in this thread. At the end of the day if you really think we are bad people doing a bad thing no amount of typing in here will change that for you guys. I'm just gonna keep doing my thing.. like I have for the last 17 years.
I don't think you or any of the other old names are bad people at all. But I do think that some of us, especially the ones who have put in a lot of time and effort to make a difference in the community and develop their talents, be it writing, casting, or playing, would get some recognition. To echo what Bisudagger said, some of the smaller casters like myself, Bisudagger, EsportsJohn, would just like some bits of push by those who are at the top.
Something that stuck with me was from CM Punk from WWE, where he listed his grievances to management of how they didn't know what they were doing with talent. He was asking his bosses how people were supposed to get better if they weren't going to compete/work with those at the top. Otherwise, talent development is diminished. I suppose this might be something that people are a bit upset about, because if the same people are the ones who are always in the big events, then there's no room for the amateurs from being able to move upwards up the figurative ladder.
As a note, I do respect all that you and the rest have done. It has been invaluable to the scene and basically allowed TL to get to where it is.
of course eon and the other top foreigners have a right to be upset. they have put their whole lives into BW for such a long time and have shown great skill, but they've been left behind in recent tournaments. it's heartbreaking when you've put in all that work and there is little fruit. it's understandable and hopefully they get their chance soon.
Rus_Brain's cup is the biggest "real" tournament featuring some of the best post 2010 BW players, it would be kinda nice if Twitch and the big names like Day9, Tastosis and Incontrol supported it in any way. I view what's being done instead (this Holiday Bash thing) as entirely irrelevant as far as competitive BW is concerned.
@Incontrol, I really appreciate the fact that you're posting, especially since you're the only one. I have one question if you could possibly answer: who picked the players?
If you don't know, could you find out? Or at least tell us how that was done for the Zotac tournament? Thanks.
On December 16 2017 10:15 iNcontroL wrote: Players are picked by folks at twitch. They don't really pick people for any other reason than they think they'd be fun on the couch and people would like to see them. It isn't like white white ra is a competitive player or something.
Sorry you weren't invited but getting mad in a thread won't do much. Just msg some folk and ask what it takes.
best lineup of favourite players/casters/personalities THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO MADE THIS POSSIBLE
EDIT: i dont see this as a "real" competition, rather than an entertainment event with people who can produce fun stuff. As a twitch viewer i'm all for jokes and BGH4v4 with WhiteRa going mass dark archons. Has nothing to do with the skill of existing foreign pros, because, lets me honest, they would not produce similar contents, it would be completely different thing.
On December 16 2017 10:15 iNcontroL wrote: Players are picked by folks at twitch. They don't really pick people for any other reason than they think they'd be fun on the couch and people would like to see them. It isn't like white white ra is a competitive player or something.
Sorry you weren't invited but getting mad in a thread won't do much. Just msg some folk and ask what it takes.
I'd like to hear more about it. Don't they ask anyone? I doubt it's purely an internal decision, it wouldn't make sense.
On December 17 2017 17:11 juvenal wrote: Rus_Brain's cup is the biggest "real" tournament featuring some of the best post 2010 BW players, it would be kinda nice if Twitch and the big names like Day9, Tastosis and Incontrol supported it in any way. I view what's being done instead (this Holiday Bash thing) as entirely irrelevant as far as competitive BW is concerned.
To be fair, as someone who just caught the results, you would be hard pressed to convince me that rus_brain cup was competitive, from what I gather Mong was fed dinner while he was also feasting on Bonyth & co. Scan wrecked everyone as well.
I don't think it's a good example of a good foreigner competition which is my problem with these events, none of the ongoing events are a good place to play except TL Open (and maybe sk weekly?).
On December 17 2017 17:11 juvenal wrote: Rus_Brain's cup is the biggest "real" tournament featuring some of the best post 2010 BW players, it would be kinda nice if Twitch and the big names like Day9, Tastosis and Incontrol supported it in any way. I view what's being done instead (this Holiday Bash thing) as entirely irrelevant as far as competitive BW is concerned.
To be fair, as someone who just caught the results, you would be hard pressed to convince me that rus_brain cup was competitive, from what I gather Mong was fed dinner while he was also feasting on Bonyth & co. Scan wrecked everyone as well.
I don't think it's a good example of a good foreigner competition which is my problem with these events, none of the ongoing events are a good place to play except TL Open (and maybe sk weekly?).
It's very competitive, only the foreigners don't stand a lot of chances in the competition But I think it's honestly the totally different problem. Rus brain are the exact opposite of this twit event. It has the highest level of competition, even allowing ex pro gamers in. The Twitch event has the lowest competition, only inviting players regardless of skill.
unfortunately, top foreignersot don't have great chances to win/play in either of them.
But I would pick rus brain Cup over Twitch bash any day.
On December 17 2017 22:54 Eywa- wrote: To be fair, as someone who just caught the results, you would be hard pressed to convince me that rus_brain cup was competitive, from what I gather Mong was fed dinner while he was also feasting on Bonyth & co. Scan wrecked everyone as well.
Well, at least Mong needed both of his hands to win this.
Scan did manage to get one win of Mong. But even then he seemed way to strong for everyone. The Rus Brain cup was fun to watch though. I was switching between Eon and Scan during the event. Maybe one day we can see them at one of these show match events.
On December 16 2017 11:11 ReachTheSky wrote: They need to do away with this "oldboys club" bs. I don't want to watch players that haven't put up results in ages. I want to see the current top talent. Guess i'm not tuning in.
^
im with you 100%,
on the other side day9, tasteless, artosis, and incontrol,need to make more money of this game, before blizzard makes another game and they forget about BW and start talking about how the new title is the best game ever made and shit.
they are going to quit the scene, again... when theres nothing left.
On December 17 2017 19:17 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: best lineup of favourite players/casters/personalities THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO MADE THIS POSSIBLE
EDIT: i dont see this as a "real" competition, rather than an entertainment event with people who can produce fun stuff. As a twitch viewer i'm all for jokes and BGH4v4 with WhiteRa going mass dark archons. Has nothing to do with the skill of existing foreign pros, because, lets me honest, they would not produce similar contents, it would be completely different thing.
You're definitely right. This is just a fun, casual event, and I really can't see why these whiners are
On December 16 2017 08:51 GTR wrote: $6,000 prize pool.
On December 16 2017 09:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What a reality check,been a top foreigner player after sc2 cames out means shit.since remastered 4 big events been made,not a single top foreigner was invited.
Hey, look on the bright side, eventually SC3 will get released and everyone will flock to it. Then few years after that, StarCraft Remastered: Remastered will be made and you will be invited to its tournaments instead of people who didn't switch to SC3.
He's not mad that he doesn't get to play despite sticking to Brood War. He's mad that players who are much worse than he is (except maybe Draco) get to goof off for 6000.
Honestly i didnt see the prize of the whole thing or even read the details,i knew a last year event was coming cuz draco said he was invited on his stream,the first thing i saw was the list of players in the top and posted a picture then that post,i actually understand now that for this specific event and what they wanna do it makes perfect sense,im not angry but im sad,very actually,incontrol said something very interesting,ask some folk what it takes,and in was gonna answer him well i have a section here on tl to help noobs,before remastered i gave replaypack from fish server and thx to'zimp'they were organized by reps vs pros,i streamed for the last years for the bw community,i donate to progamers streams and also donate to make bw tourneys,and then i realized that he was no talking about that. I see how 4 big events in a game that im considered by many one of the best outside Korea been made and not only me but all the current tops except koget (JUST KIDDING ) that no one likes him didnt get an invitation.i remember watching dracos stream after the esl open and i was chatting with him when all of sudden the zotac guy appeared and invited him to the zotac invitational,i wasnt jealous,the first thing that did come to my mind was .man what god this guy pray to,he said he is not catholic.and honestly is not all about prizes but for me was more like it is so cool flying overseas and meet the players that u play online with in offline competition and meet the people that used to be big deal long ago in the bw scene that u only know about them in interviews or articles,cuz in my mind it was proly the obvious move new blood meet old.Well in the end it was the whole group in every event and with the whole negativity your head just plays with you,i wish nothing but sucess to any bw event cuz i love this game and i consider it my best friend,i cant wish bad to my best friend.
obviously twitch have sole discretion to hold whatever kind of tournament they want, but dismissing fan opinions as "entitlement" misses the point completely.
On December 18 2017 05:14 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Honestly i didnt see the prize of the whole thing or even read the details,i knew a last year event was coming cuz draco said he was invited on his stream,the first thing i saw was the list of players in the top and posted a picture then that post,i actually understand now that for this specific event and what they wanna do it makes perfect sense,im not angry but im sad,very actually,incontrol said something very interesting,ask some folk what it takes,and in was gonna answer him well i have a section here on tl to help noobs,before remastered i gave replaypack from fish server and thx to'zimp'they were organized by reps vs pros,i streamed for the last years for the bw community,i donate to progamers streams and also donate to make bw tourneys,and then i realized that he was no talking about that. I see how 4 big events in a game that im considered by many one of the best outside Korea been made and not only me but all the current tops except koget that no one likes him didnt get an invitation.i remember watching dracos stream after the esl open and i was chatting with him when all of sudden the zotac guy appeared and invited him to the zotac invitational,i wasnt jealous,the first thing that did come to my mind was .man what god this guy pray to,he said he is not catholic.and honestly is not all about prizes but for me was more like it is so cool flying overseas and meet the players that u play online with in offline competition and meet the people that used to be big deal long ago in the bw scene that u only know about them in interviews or articles,cuz in my mind it was proly the obvious move new blood meet old.Well in the end it was the whole group in every event and with the whole negativity your head just plays with you,i wish nothing but sucess to any bw event cuz i love this game and i consider it my best friend,i cant wish bad to my best friend.
Who dislikes Koget? One of the most mannered players I've seen and friendly in twitch chat etc. Also wasn't he a last minute replacement for dewalt because of visa issues?
On December 18 2017 05:14 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Honestly i didnt see the prize of the whole thing or even read the details,i knew a last year event was coming cuz draco said he was invited on his stream,the first thing i saw was the list of players in the top and posted a picture then that post,i actually understand now that for this specific event and what they wanna do it makes perfect sense,im not angry but im sad,very actually,incontrol said something very interesting,ask some folk what it takes,and in was gonna answer him well i have a section here on tl to help noobs,before remastered i gave replaypack from fish server and thx to'zimp'they were organized by reps vs pros,i streamed for the last years for the bw community,i donate to progamers streams and also donate to make bw tourneys,and then i realized that he was no talking about that. I see how 4 big events in a game that im considered by many one of the best outside Korea been made and not only me but all the current tops except koget that no one likes him didnt get an invitation.i remember watching dracos stream after the esl open and i was chatting with him when all of sudden the zotac guy appeared and invited him to the zotac invitational,i wasnt jealous,the first thing that did come to my mind was .man what god this guy pray to,he said he is not catholic.and honestly is not all about prizes but for me was more like it is so cool flying overseas and meet the players that u play online with in offline competition and meet the people that used to be big deal long ago in the bw scene that u only know about them in interviews or articles,cuz in my mind it was proly the obvious move new blood meet old.Well in the end it was the whole group in every event and with the whole negativity your head just plays with you,i wish nothing but sucess to any bw event cuz i love this game and i consider it my best friend,i cant wish bad to my best friend.
Who dislikes Koget? One of the most mannered players I've seen and friendly in twitch chat etc. Also wasn't he a last minute replacement for dewalt because of visa issues?
it is a joke,i will edit and make it clear that it is a joke.obviously a joke is not fun if i have to explain it.
For a prize pool of this size, it would have been nice to potentially have it given to players who are practicing and giving up a good amount of their time to keep their skills sharp. I understand the organizers ultimately can do whatever they want since it's their money, but I feel bad for people who are practicing hard and could provide good entertainment through solid play. Definitely not trying to bash the event, though. I'll more than likely tune in because I enjoy the banter, commentary, and stories by the old guys.
I also understand personality is a drawing factor, but I've found that events like these are actually a really good time to bring in some new faces/people that might not be as well known to the community from a personality standpoint. I enjoy watching Smash, Dota2, and CS:GO, and the Summit tournaments are one of my favorites to watch because we get to see a side of players that is hard to capture in another tournament setting. Of course, there are people who want to see and hear from people who have established themselves in the BW scene already. I know I definitely enjoy having Day9, Tastosis, and Inc on the couch. But I hope future event organizers won't be so hesitant to invite some unknowns or lesser knowns to events like these.
But I am grateful to be able to enjoy another BW event like this. Hope it goes well!
iNcholesteroL again? Mr. OutOfControl you say? Nah, I pass. It's nice to see Draco, WhiteRa and NoNy but don't get why some ex SC2 pros get invite over current BW pros? You guys are out of your minds if you ask me.
Ill tune in to watch if I can. Its not the players I would choose, but I am not choosing, or putting down the cash, so I will shut up and thank you for hosting the event.
On December 18 2017 05:14 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Honestly i didnt see the prize of the whole thing or even read the details,i knew a last year event was coming cuz draco said he was invited on his stream,the first thing i saw was the list of players in the top and posted a picture then that post,i actually understand now that for this specific event and what they wanna do it makes perfect sense,im not angry but im sad,very actually,incontrol said something very interesting,ask some folk what it takes,and in was gonna answer him well i have a section here on tl to help noobs,before remastered i gave replaypack from fish server and thx to'zimp'they were organized by reps vs pros,i streamed for the last years for the bw community,i donate to progamers streams and also donate to make bw tourneys,and then i realized that he was no talking about that. I see how 4 big events in a game that im considered by many one of the best outside Korea been made and not only me but all the current tops except koget (JUST KIDDING ) that no one likes him didnt get an invitation.i remember watching dracos stream after the esl open and i was chatting with him when all of sudden the zotac guy appeared and invited him to the zotac invitational,i wasnt jealous,the first thing that did come to my mind was .man what god this guy pray to,he said he is not catholic.and honestly is not all about prizes but for me was more like it is so cool flying overseas and meet the players that u play online with in offline competition and meet the people that used to be big deal long ago in the bw scene that u only know about them in interviews or articles,cuz in my mind it was proly the obvious move new blood meet old.Well in the end it was the whole group in every event and with the whole negativity your head just plays with you,i wish nothing but sucess to any bw event cuz i love this game and i consider it my best friend,i cant wish bad to my best friend.
We (me, you, bonyth, trutacz, terror, dandy etc etc) can fold for 10 dollars and make a tournament with each other. Prize pool will be a hundred times smaller, but the quality of the game is ten times better And since in this topic I see the interest of some people in such a show, maybe someone else will be able to support
I'll tune to watch and believe that such exposure is great for the scene as a whole. It can bring new sponsors and investors! There aren't such opportunities with the established events known to us.
I hope in the new year the organizers of such tournaments will try to navigate throughout the community and stop relying so much on the old-school members. I like seeing the old names from time to time but there are so many people who kept this scene alive in the last 7 years - they DO DESERVE to get some fame for being the experts in the scene and the people all are looking at!
The upsetting part is that whoever is big enough to not need the others for marketing or organizational purposes the organizers most probably won't reach out to anyone else. I hope this will be disproved in 2018!
there will be a StarCraft Remastered 1v1 8-player invitational with a $6,000 prize pool
I get the community portion, I get wanting a tournament/esports portion, but don't mix them. If you're going to have a tournament, invite the best; if you're going to have a community focused nostalgia fest, bring the oldies in my all means, but don't put such a large prize pool that would go a long way among the foreign amateur community, just pay some appearance fees and maybe have a token $100 prize.
On December 18 2017 05:14 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Honestly i didnt see the prize of the whole thing or even read the details,i knew a last year event was coming cuz draco said he was invited on his stream,the first thing i saw was the list of players in the top and posted a picture then that post,i actually understand now that for this specific event and what they wanna do it makes perfect sense,im not angry but im sad,very actually,incontrol said something very interesting,ask some folk what it takes,and in was gonna answer him well i have a section here on tl to help noobs,before remastered i gave replaypack from fish server and thx to'zimp'they were organized by reps vs pros,i streamed for the last years for the bw community,i donate to progamers streams and also donate to make bw tourneys,and then i realized that he was no talking about that. I see how 4 big events in a game that im considered by many one of the best outside Korea been made and not only me but all the current tops except koget (JUST KIDDING ) that no one likes him didnt get an invitation.i remember watching dracos stream after the esl open and i was chatting with him when all of sudden the zotac guy appeared and invited him to the zotac invitational,i wasnt jealous,the first thing that did come to my mind was .man what god this guy pray to,he said he is not catholic.and honestly is not all about prizes but for me was more like it is so cool flying overseas and meet the players that u play online with in offline competition and meet the people that used to be big deal long ago in the bw scene that u only know about them in interviews or articles,cuz in my mind it was proly the obvious move new blood meet old.Well in the end it was the whole group in every event and with the whole negativity your head just plays with you,i wish nothing but sucess to any bw event cuz i love this game and i consider it my best friend,i cant wish bad to my best friend.
We (me, you, bonyth, trutacz, terror, dandy etc etc) can fold for 10 dollars and make a tournament with each other. Prize pool will be a hundred times smaller, but the quality of the game is ten times better And since in this topic I see the interest of some people in such a show, maybe someone else will be able to support
I'd be interested in working and pitching on a big 2018 event. Maybe we can get everyone who wants to contribute into a discord channel and discuss it.
Uh... what did I walk into when I joined this thread?
Even though I wish we could have the best (foreign) players play in a tournament, we can't keep complaining about it every time there are organizers making their own event with invites. And that's all I'll say about that...
On December 18 2017 05:14 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Honestly i didnt see the prize of the whole thing or even read the details,i knew a last year event was coming cuz draco said he was invited on his stream,the first thing i saw was the list of players in the top and posted a picture then that post,i actually understand now that for this specific event and what they wanna do it makes perfect sense,im not angry but im sad,very actually,incontrol said something very interesting,ask some folk what it takes,and in was gonna answer him well i have a section here on tl to help noobs,before remastered i gave replaypack from fish server and thx to'zimp'they were organized by reps vs pros,i streamed for the last years for the bw community,i donate to progamers streams and also donate to make bw tourneys,and then i realized that he was no talking about that. I see how 4 big events in a game that im considered by many one of the best outside Korea been made and not only me but all the current tops except koget (JUST KIDDING ) that no one likes him didnt get an invitation.i remember watching dracos stream after the esl open and i was chatting with him when all of sudden the zotac guy appeared and invited him to the zotac invitational,i wasnt jealous,the first thing that did come to my mind was .man what god this guy pray to,he said he is not catholic.and honestly is not all about prizes but for me was more like it is so cool flying overseas and meet the players that u play online with in offline competition and meet the people that used to be big deal long ago in the bw scene that u only know about them in interviews or articles,cuz in my mind it was proly the obvious move new blood meet old.Well in the end it was the whole group in every event and with the whole negativity your head just plays with you,i wish nothing but sucess to any bw event cuz i love this game and i consider it my best friend,i cant wish bad to my best friend.
We (me, you, bonyth, trutacz, terror, dandy etc etc) can fold for 10 dollars and make a tournament with each other. Prize pool will be a hundred times smaller, but the quality of the game is ten times better And since in this topic I see the interest of some people in such a show, maybe someone else will be able to support
I'd be interested in working and pitching on this. Maybe we can get everyone who wants to contribute into a discord channel and discuss it.
(Not here since it's seriously off topic )
I'm gonna try to watch the games today (I'm at work on a Monday...), but I am HIGHLY interested in this. It's been a long time since there has been a tournament with the true best players. IMO, collaborate with the players on the structure of it, since it would be all about them.
Man can’t wait to watch this love these guys. On the other note I would love to watch some of the top foreign players play. I haven’t watched a top foreigner tournament in like 10 years. Can anyone direct me to some of those? Also yeah I think it would be great if there were some high paying tournaments for foreigners but you have to have a big enough scene to put that on..... we ain’t back there guy, we barely we before sc2. Hopefully events like this can build up to the point that we can have those
Just so this isn't taken the wrong way, I'd like to preface it by saying that I absolutely do wish there were big money tournaments for the top foreign players. They work had and they deserve it without a doubt.
That said, there's something that I'm curious about.
My premise: For a tournament to be worth investing in/sponsoring, it must have the promise of sufficient viewership to provide a reasonable Return on Investment for the sponsor. (If you disagree with this premise, please let me know why. But, I believe it's a fair statement for any sort of sustainable sponsorship ecosystem.)
My curiosity: We have multiple tournaments every weekend which are participated in by the majority of the top players in our foreign community. The viewership for these events is generally quite low, usually no more than 1000 viewers and typically substantially less than that.
What is it that leads those of you arguing that an event like this should be about skill/top players to believe that a larger prize pool would result in substantially larger viewership to justify the investment of a sponsor?
In closing: I believe that if there were statistics that showed it would be profitable for a sponsor to invest these larger prize pools in events for top foreign players, then they would be sponsoring them. The reason these large prize pools go to events like this that *more* about fun than competition is because they appeal to a broader audience and therefore have a higher potential ROI.
I'd like to hear from those of you who disagree with me as to why. I'm perfectly happy to be wrong in this case, but I haven't come up with any reasonable logic to prove myself wrong.
On December 18 2017 23:15 AManHasNoName wrote: Just so this isn't taken the wrong way, I'd like to preface it by saying that I absolutely do wish there were big money tournaments for the top foreign players. They work had and they deserve it without a doubt.
That said, there's something that I'm curious about.
My premise: For a tournament to be worth investing in/sponsoring, it must have the promise of sufficient viewership to provide a reasonable Return on Investment for the sponsor. (If you disagree with this premise, please let me know why. But, I believe it's a fair statement for any sort of sustainable sponsorship ecosystem.)
My curiosity: We have multiple tournaments every weekend which are participated in by the majority of the top players in our foreign community. The viewership for these events is generally quite low, usually no more than 1000 viewers and typically substantially less than that.
What is it that leads those of you arguing that an event like this should be about skill/top players to believe that a larger prize pool would result in substantially larger viewership to justify the investment of a sponsor?
In closing: I believe that if there were statistics that showed it would be profitable for a sponsor to invest these larger prize pools in events for top foreign players, then they would be sponsoring them. The reason these large prize pools go to events like this that *more* about fun than competition is because they appeal to a broader audience and therefore have a higher potential ROI.
I'd like to hear from those of you who disagree with me as to why. I'm perfectly happy to be wrong in this case, but I haven't come up with any reasonable logic to prove myself wrong.
i think if we put Day9 Artosis Tasteless to Cast TL Open we will get similar viewers but obviously the prize is 200$(and i think is amazing,We used to play for years defiler tours for 50$ or 75$ and we did keep the community running for a long time) and there are not salaries for the casters :/
Good players can also play for fun, no reason not to invite them really IMO and more people would watch it and bring more cash. Still, it's better than nothing especially after a long BW draught that involved all those casters.
It all depends on who picked up the lineup for the 6k$ tourney. - If it's Twitch then whatever, there's nothing we can do, they dont know the game. - If it's the "couch guys, who know the game best" then it's more problematic because it means they have convinced Twitch it was the best possible lineup to invest their BW's 6k$ (+ the whole event price) which is absurd. And since 2 of the casters are also going to compete I can only assume that's what actually happened.
On December 17 2017 04:53 playa wrote: The way to actually promote BW is to show that it can pay to actually play the game. These tournaments just foster "you should have been there to buddy up. Too late, but hope you enjoy our entertainment."
I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's really indicative of what BW has always been about. I once qualified for the final 4 of a WCG qualifer. There was no bracket or time given out, yet. Sheth and Nyoken decided to "MAKE THEIR OWN BRACKET" and time up, and not inform me nor the other guy (non old boys club member). They just played against each other to decide who would go to the USA finals...
The final 4 was supposed to be randomized; ie., no way to know who you should be playing until the admin made the bracket. It was the biggest joke to ever happen in esports. But, since it benefited the "old guard," it was viewed as the most legit thing ever. Totally normal and kosher. That's the kind of power that tl.net wielded over tournaments and the community. They do w/e they feel like, and if you're not apart of the buddy system, then you're a noob compared to us and you don't even deserve to play in things you qualified for
Hi. First, this never happened. I didn't have any clout with WCG. I wasn't a part of the old boys club then. I'm still not really now.
Second, I'm really sorry about the situation of the game and the tournament scene. I wish there was infinite tournaments with only the highest skill bracket of foreigners. I know I'm not good anymore. I'm just doing whatever small things I can to bring more attention to this game, because I love it. I think everyone at the event feels similarly. I hope our love for the game can help grow the scene and benefit the great foreigner players that are here.
On December 18 2017 05:14 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Honestly i didnt see the prize of the whole thing or even read the details,i knew a last year event was coming cuz draco said he was invited on his stream,the first thing i saw was the list of players in the top and posted a picture then that post,i actually understand now that for this specific event and what they wanna do it makes perfect sense,im not angry but im sad,very actually,incontrol said something very interesting,ask some folk what it takes,and in was gonna answer him well i have a section here on tl to help noobs,before remastered i gave replaypack from fish server and thx to'zimp'they were organized by reps vs pros,i streamed for the last years for the bw community,i donate to progamers streams and also donate to make bw tourneys,and then i realized that he was no talking about that. I see how 4 big events in a game that im considered by many one of the best outside Korea been made and not only me but all the current tops except koget (JUST KIDDING ) that no one likes him didnt get an invitation.i remember watching dracos stream after the esl open and i was chatting with him when all of sudden the zotac guy appeared and invited him to the zotac invitational,i wasnt jealous,the first thing that did come to my mind was .man what god this guy pray to,he said he is not catholic.and honestly is not all about prizes but for me was more like it is so cool flying overseas and meet the players that u play online with in offline competition and meet the people that used to be big deal long ago in the bw scene that u only know about them in interviews or articles,cuz in my mind it was proly the obvious move new blood meet old.Well in the end it was the whole group in every event and with the whole negativity your head just plays with you,i wish nothing but sucess to any bw event cuz i love this game and i consider it my best friend,i cant wish bad to my best friend.
We (me, you, bonyth, trutacz, terror, dandy etc etc) can fold for 10 dollars and make a tournament with each other. Prize pool will be a hundred times smaller, but the quality of the game is ten times better And since in this topic I see the interest of some people in such a show, maybe someone else will be able to support
Would donate £100.00 but all taking part would have to worship the ground I walk on and name their first born after me. Or merely show good games and save replays and upload them for the BW fanbase....I'm undecided .
OT: Good initiative, can appreciate another event but can also see the POVs of a lot of posters in the thread and their valid points. Honestly I wasn't expecting the event iNcontroL spoke of to be....well more of the same, but I do remember a similar event happening for SC2 either during the beta or at release.
Hopefully with the holiday season all but upon us more prospective fans and players will see the game and hijinks and get interested and more events to take place.
On December 17 2017 04:53 playa wrote: The way to actually promote BW is to show that it can pay to actually play the game. These tournaments just foster "you should have been there to buddy up. Too late, but hope you enjoy our entertainment."
I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's really indicative of what BW has always been about. I once qualified for the final 4 of a WCG qualifer. There was no bracket or time given out, yet. Sheth and Nyoken decided to "MAKE THEIR OWN BRACKET" and time up, and not inform me nor the other guy (non old boys club member). They just played against each other to decide who would go to the USA finals...
The final 4 was supposed to be randomized; ie., no way to know who you should be playing until the admin made the bracket. It was the biggest joke to ever happen in esports. But, since it benefited the "old guard," it was viewed as the most legit thing ever. Totally normal and kosher. That's the kind of power that tl.net wielded over tournaments and the community. They do w/e they feel like, and if you're not apart of the buddy system, then you're a noob compared to us and you don't even deserve to play in things you qualified for
Hi. First, this never happened. I didn't have any clout with WCG. I wasn't a part of the old boys club then. I'm still not really now.
Second, I'm really sorry about the situation of the game and the tournament scene. I wish there was infinite tournaments with only the highest skill bracket of foreigners. I know I'm not good anymore. I'm just doing whatever small things I can to bring more attention to this game, because I love it. I think everyone at the event feels similarly. I hope our love for the game can help grow the scene and benefit the great foreigner players that are here.
no problem, if it's just about that and you folks all just want to promote Broodwar everybody can happily donate their prize-money and or attendance money to:
Liquid`Nazgul
and he will fund TSL 5 from that. With open Qualifiers! Thx in advance mate! Thinking about it, it's fair enough if everybody donates half of it, foreign top players will be more than happy to compete in the toughest tournament of 2018 for 3k in prizes total!
Ask Tyler and the bois if they agree aswell, im sure they'll love my idea, will ya?
It's nice you view it this way Sheth, all sarcasm aside. I believe you really you feel that way and want to support Broodwar. But people are not upset you folks do a couch-nostalgia-meetup-event sponsored by twitch. They take issue on the
On December 16 2017 08:51 GTR wrote: $6,000 prize pool.
*spittake*
That's more then the total amount of prize money being distributed throughout the entire year 2017 for competitive foreigner tours that were accessible to everybody if I'm not mistaken. As long as sponsored Nostalgia Events have considerably bigger prizes that competitive open tournaments, there's bound to be unhappiness about it.
I don't wanna badmouth you or any participant here, the reasons why sponsors go that route are very obvious and have been discussed in this thread as well. Nothing we can do really, besides trying to get more publicity for the current top players. We need the support of folks like you in this who made a name for them in SC2 and have a big following. But for now and the immediate future, we have to take it as it is.
On December 18 2017 20:31 Grettin wrote: Holy shit this thread is a shitshow. I'll be tuning in regardless of the lineup.
It really is lol. It seems like every thread discussing older BW players have been extremely toxic, starting with the thread where it was announced that Day[9] would be doing a new BW Daily show and he was mocked for "leaving Brood War". Heck, the FilthyCup's were cancelled because he got tired of all the freaking complaining that goes on in this forum and decided it just wasn't worth his time and money anymore.
Hopefully this event gets put on the front page of Twitch, like the release event was. With this group of commentators plus the casual environment, it should be just as fun. I don't expect the ~30,000 viewers that the release event had but I think it can pull in quite a bit if it gets on the front page again.
On December 18 2017 20:31 Grettin wrote: Holy shit this thread is a shitshow. I'll be tuning in regardless of the lineup.
It really is lol. It seems like every thread discussing older BW players have been extremely toxic, starting with the thread where it was announced that Day[9] would be doing a new BW Daily show and he was mocked for "leaving Brood War". Heck, the FilthyCup's were cancelled because he got tired of all the freaking complaining that goes on in this forum and decided it just wasn't worth his time and money anymore.
Hopefully this event gets put on the front page of Twitch, like the release event was. With this group of commentators plus the casual environment, it should be just as fun. I don't expect the ~30,000 viewers that the release event had but I think it can pull in quite a bit if it gets on the front page again.
I didn’t know about that... that’s really sad that people would be nasty to Sean. He has done so damn much for this community and for people to shit talk is appalling.
Being a member of this so called “silent majority” group (created this account to basically just share my opinion), I thought I could share the view of one member of this group.
I go back to the GOMTV days, and really enjoy watching competitive BW. However, time limitation only allow me to now watch this casually whenever I have a minute, which more often than not, means watching the recorded videos, and not stream.
1. As I am not a hardcore player, the most important for me are the casters to be entertained (basically, the choice I make is not whether to watch an “casual invite tournament” vs “qualifying only tournament”, but BW tournament vs a regular TV show). As such, the casters need to know the current meta of builds, able to comment on the choices of the players, but make this entertaining to watch. Derailing too much, as in some previous tournament makes me basically just fast-forward (e.g. not starting talking about the actual game but old stories until min 6 when the mutas are already over the Terran base...), and being too “nerdy” is just boring too watch. However, I use these videos to also learn new tactics/builds, so comment on the placemen/timing of buildings are great. I personally like the Artoisis/Tasteless duo, and follow them on Twitter to watch their BW casts and love the ASL 1-4 seasons. This is one of the reason why I am not watching the other Foreign BW matches. I have tried to find other tournaments, but the effort needed to first find the “best” tournament, and find the correct order of videos in the tournament (e.g. not start with finals that pop up first...) with what I view as “good” casters is just daunting.
2. I don’t care anything about the old school BW players. I am going to watch this, and would so regardless of whether the players were the top or second-tier. Not because I don’t want to see the best (which I DO), but out of lack of knowledge of the top players outside of Korea. I actually thought the guys in the latest Zotac cup represented the best of the Foreign BW community, and was a bit surprised to see all different names like Eonzerg pop up in this thread that I did not know about (sorry guys). This only goes to show that the promoters of these tournaments bear some responsibility to field the best to educate and promote the community. If the casual viewers do not know about the rest, this will be the only thing they would see.
As a consequence of the two points above, I don’t agree with the some of the points of the organizers that having the old dudes instead of the top foreign community represented is good for the game. I would prefer to have Artoisis/Tasteless (and Day9,Incontrol) as casters for a tournament with 16+ players representing the best the foreign community has to offer, that way at least we can give these new players something more to play for, while we as viewers are entertained.
That being said, I am really happy about this as well! I am looking forward to be entertained by the casters, but by looking at the competition for what it is, and not what it could be. Hope to see more cool stuff coming out of the SC:R community.
On December 19 2017 06:14 Jack_ wrote: What a game by WhiteRa!
WhiteRa putting on a contain clinic, I can't believe how many times he broke 2+ tanks and assorted other units with one reaver, one dragoon, and a handful of zealots.
On December 18 2017 23:15 AManHasNoName wrote: Just so this isn't taken the wrong way, I'd like to preface it by saying that I absolutely do wish there were big money tournaments for the top foreign players. They work had and they deserve it without a doubt.
That said, there's something that I'm curious about.
My premise: For a tournament to be worth investing in/sponsoring, it must have the promise of sufficient viewership to provide a reasonable Return on Investment for the sponsor. (If you disagree with this premise, please let me know why. But, I believe it's a fair statement for any sort of sustainable sponsorship ecosystem.)
My curiosity: We have multiple tournaments every weekend which are participated in by the majority of the top players in our foreign community. The viewership for these events is generally quite low, usually no more than 1000 viewers and typically substantially less than that.
What is it that leads those of you arguing that an event like this should be about skill/top players to believe that a larger prize pool would result in substantially larger viewership to justify the investment of a sponsor?
In closing: I believe that if there were statistics that showed it would be profitable for a sponsor to invest these larger prize pools in events for top foreign players, then they would be sponsoring them. The reason these large prize pools go to events like this that *more* about fun than competition is because they appeal to a broader audience and therefore have a higher potential ROI.
I'd like to hear from those of you who disagree with me as to why. I'm perfectly happy to be wrong in this case, but I haven't come up with any reasonable logic to prove myself wrong.
i think if we put Day9 Artosis Tasteless to Cast TL Open we will get similar viewers but obviously the prize is 200$(and i think is amazing,We used to play for years defiler tours for 50$ or 75$ and we did keep the community running for a long time) and there are not salaries for the casters :/
I 100% agree that having some hype casters would bump those numbers. But, at the same time there are events like the OGN Super Match which had EffOrt vs Flash finals and Tasteless/Artosis casting it on Twitch and it still only got ~1k viewers. Players like White-Ra, NonY, Draco and incontrol are also a big part of what brings in such a broad audience.
Yo Sheth, this has nothing to do with anything in this thread but it's cool to see you around again! Loved remembering watching you beat Rain's DTs that one time :D
On December 16 2017 09:49 GTR wrote: i think people should have realised by now these 'invitationals' are not really tournaments.
True. But at the same time the prize pools have been large. It's not hard to understand why Eon and others would be more than a little bummed out.
In fairness though Eon, you guys right now are better players than most of these guys, but they are big name personas that have been relevant factors on TL and in SC2 as well. You're know by a small number of BW players, these guys are known by a much larger base, which is often the draw for invitationals.
The top four guys on the left are HUGE personalities in starcraft across both games. Tens of thousands of followers or more. Sheth is a very well known SC2 streamer. Draco is legit good right now and famous. NonY is also one of the most famous. White-Ra is a big name legend with some funny russian hype around him from BW and SC2.
The only two that seem out of place are Kawaii and Jaeyun. I don't know Jaeyun at all, and Kawaii as far as I know was good at BW/SC2 but was never really a big name either.
Jaeyun was the star player and one of the best during the CSL Brood War days where he carried UCSD to the 2009 CSL title and runner up in 2010 CSL.
You got it wrong.... we won in 2010 against Duke and lost in 2009 against Waterloo. Jaeyun took down Nony in the ace match when he was a pro-level player.
On December 17 2017 04:53 playa wrote: The way to actually promote BW is to show that it can pay to actually play the game. These tournaments just foster "you should have been there to buddy up. Too late, but hope you enjoy our entertainment."
I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's really indicative of what BW has always been about. I once qualified for the final 4 of a WCG qualifer. There was no bracket or time given out, yet. Sheth and Nyoken decided to "MAKE THEIR OWN BRACKET" and time up, and not inform me nor the other guy (non old boys club member). They just played against each other to decide who would go to the USA finals...
The final 4 was supposed to be randomized; ie., no way to know who you should be playing until the admin made the bracket. It was the biggest joke to ever happen in esports. But, since it benefited the "old guard," it was viewed as the most legit thing ever. Totally normal and kosher. That's the kind of power that tl.net wielded over tournaments and the community. They do w/e they feel like, and if you're not apart of the buddy system, then you're a noob compared to us and you don't even deserve to play in things you qualified for
Hi. First, this never happened. I didn't have any clout with WCG. I wasn't a part of the old boys club then. I'm still not really now.
Second, I'm really sorry about the situation of the game and the tournament scene. I wish there was infinite tournaments with only the highest skill bracket of foreigners. I know I'm not good anymore. I'm just doing whatever small things I can to bring more attention to this game, because I love it. I think everyone at the event feels similarly. I hope our love for the game can help grow the scene and benefit the great foreigner players that are here.
It takes even more audacity to claim this didn't happen. Apparently screwing others over is such a norm that it's hard to remember. I'm sure it's still searchable on the site. I even remember the other player in the final 4 that you two screwed over (timestop).
BW has always been a joke. I hear Xeris, who had jack to do with anything, encouraged you two to do the dumbest thing ever. If it didn't happen, I wonder how you ended up playing Nyoken in a final 4. Final 4 with 2 players, hmm... wonder how that can happen.
Meanwhile, I took a walkover only under the condition that it couldn't be rescheduled, and then played the guy when I had no obligation to, via WCG rules. Yet, I got attacked mercilessly for months... Why? Other guy was Idra. Welcome to TL.net.
On December 19 2017 08:34 Ty2 wrote: It's hard to explain, but the older style way of playing just feels much more exciting and suspenseful to watch. These guys have such good experience playing competitively and there are so many micro oriented and unstandard builds. I'm loving it.
Yeah, I agree. There have definitely been some really great games today! Super fun event so far :D
On December 19 2017 08:34 Ty2 wrote: It's hard to explain, but the older style way of playing just feels much more exciting and suspenseful to watch. These guys have such good experience playing competitively and there are so many micro oriented and unstandard builds. I'm loving it.
incontrol game vs kawaii on longinus was indeed pretty cool,reminds me a bit the game that Jaedong played vs flash on eye of the storm. in the ASL his game vs draco on taucross i feel like it was an inspiration of the gameplay that Michael showed vs dragon.
On December 18 2017 23:15 AManHasNoName wrote: Just so this isn't taken the wrong way, I'd like to preface it by saying that I absolutely do wish there were big money tournaments for the top foreign players. They work had and they deserve it without a doubt.
That said, there's something that I'm curious about.
My premise: For a tournament to be worth investing in/sponsoring, it must have the promise of sufficient viewership to provide a reasonable Return on Investment for the sponsor. (If you disagree with this premise, please let me know why. But, I believe it's a fair statement for any sort of sustainable sponsorship ecosystem.)
My curiosity: We have multiple tournaments every weekend which are participated in by the majority of the top players in our foreign community. The viewership for these events is generally quite low, usually no more than 1000 viewers and typically substantially less than that.
What is it that leads those of you arguing that an event like this should be about skill/top players to believe that a larger prize pool would result in substantially larger viewership to justify the investment of a sponsor?
In closing: I believe that if there were statistics that showed it would be profitable for a sponsor to invest these larger prize pools in events for top foreign players, then they would be sponsoring them. The reason these large prize pools go to events like this that *more* about fun than competition is because they appeal to a broader audience and therefore have a higher potential ROI.
I'd like to hear from those of you who disagree with me as to why. I'm perfectly happy to be wrong in this case, but I haven't come up with any reasonable logic to prove myself wrong.
i think if we put Day9 Artosis Tasteless to Cast TL Open we will get similar viewers but obviously the prize is 200$(and i think is amazing,We used to play for years defiler tours for 50$ or 75$ and we did keep the community running for a long time) and there are not salaries for the casters :/
I 100% agree that having some hype casters would bump those numbers. But, at the same time there are events like the OGN Super Match which had EffOrt vs Flash finals and Tasteless/Artosis casting it on Twitch and it still only got ~1k viewers. Players like White-Ra, NonY, Draco and incontrol are also a big part of what brings in such a broad audience.
That's because Day9 is the one that brings in the majority of viewers out of anyone involved in this event. More than Artosis, more than Tasteless.
On December 17 2017 04:53 playa wrote: The way to actually promote BW is to show that it can pay to actually play the game. These tournaments just foster "you should have been there to buddy up. Too late, but hope you enjoy our entertainment."
I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's really indicative of what BW has always been about. I once qualified for the final 4 of a WCG qualifer. There was no bracket or time given out, yet. Sheth and Nyoken decided to "MAKE THEIR OWN BRACKET" and time up, and not inform me nor the other guy (non old boys club member). They just played against each other to decide who would go to the USA finals...
The final 4 was supposed to be randomized; ie., no way to know who you should be playing until the admin made the bracket. It was the biggest joke to ever happen in esports. But, since it benefited the "old guard," it was viewed as the most legit thing ever. Totally normal and kosher. That's the kind of power that tl.net wielded over tournaments and the community. They do w/e they feel like, and if you're not apart of the buddy system, then you're a noob compared to us and you don't even deserve to play in things you qualified for
Hi. First, this never happened. I didn't have any clout with WCG. I wasn't a part of the old boys club then. I'm still not really now.
Second, I'm really sorry about the situation of the game and the tournament scene. I wish there was infinite tournaments with only the highest skill bracket of foreigners. I know I'm not good anymore. I'm just doing whatever small things I can to bring more attention to this game, because I love it. I think everyone at the event feels similarly. I hope our love for the game can help grow the scene and benefit the great foreigner players that are here.
It takes even more audacity to claim this didn't happen. Apparently screwing others over is such a norm that it's hard to remember. I'm sure it's still searchable on the site. I even remember the other player in the final 4 that you two screwed over (timestop).
BW has always been a joke. I hear Xeris, who had jack to do with anything, encouraged you two to do the dumbest thing ever. If it didn't happen, I wonder how you ended up playing Nyoken in a final 4. Final 4 with 2 players, hmm... wonder how that can happen.
Meanwhile, I took a walkover only under the condition that it couldn't be rescheduled, and then played the guy when I had no obligation to, via WCG rules. Yet, I got attacked mercilessly for months... Why? Other guy was Idra. Welcome to TL.net.
What... lol. I've never had anything to do with WCG.
On December 16 2017 09:49 GTR wrote: i think people should have realised by now these 'invitationals' are not really tournaments.
True. But at the same time the prize pools have been large. It's not hard to understand why Eon and others would be more than a little bummed out.
In fairness though Eon, you guys right now are better players than most of these guys, but they are big name personas that have been relevant factors on TL and in SC2 as well. You're know by a small number of BW players, these guys are known by a much larger base, which is often the draw for invitationals.
The top four guys on the left are HUGE personalities in starcraft across both games. Tens of thousands of followers or more. Sheth is a very well known SC2 streamer. Draco is legit good right now and famous. NonY is also one of the most famous. White-Ra is a big name legend with some funny russian hype around him from BW and SC2.
The only two that seem out of place are Kawaii and Jaeyun. I don't know Jaeyun at all, and Kawaii as far as I know was good at BW/SC2 but was never really a big name either.
Jaeyun was the star player and one of the best during the CSL Brood War days where he carried UCSD to the 2009 CSL title and runner up in 2010 CSL.
You got it wrong.... we won in 2010 against Duke and lost in 2009 against Waterloo. Jaeyun took down Nony in the ace match when he was a pro-level player.
On December 17 2017 04:53 playa wrote: The way to actually promote BW is to show that it can pay to actually play the game. These tournaments just foster "you should have been there to buddy up. Too late, but hope you enjoy our entertainment."
I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's really indicative of what BW has always been about. I once qualified for the final 4 of a WCG qualifer. There was no bracket or time given out, yet. Sheth and Nyoken decided to "MAKE THEIR OWN BRACKET" and time up, and not inform me nor the other guy (non old boys club member). They just played against each other to decide who would go to the USA finals...
The final 4 was supposed to be randomized; ie., no way to know who you should be playing until the admin made the bracket. It was the biggest joke to ever happen in esports. But, since it benefited the "old guard," it was viewed as the most legit thing ever. Totally normal and kosher. That's the kind of power that tl.net wielded over tournaments and the community. They do w/e they feel like, and if you're not apart of the buddy system, then you're a noob compared to us and you don't even deserve to play in things you qualified for
Hi. First, this never happened. I didn't have any clout with WCG. I wasn't a part of the old boys club then. I'm still not really now.
Second, I'm really sorry about the situation of the game and the tournament scene. I wish there was infinite tournaments with only the highest skill bracket of foreigners. I know I'm not good anymore. I'm just doing whatever small things I can to bring more attention to this game, because I love it. I think everyone at the event feels similarly. I hope our love for the game can help grow the scene and benefit the great foreigner players that are here.
It takes even more audacity to claim this didn't happen. Apparently screwing others over is such a norm that it's hard to remember. I'm sure it's still searchable on the site. I even remember the other player in the final 4 that you two screwed over (timestop).
BW has always been a joke. I hear Xeris, who had jack to do with anything, encouraged you two to do the dumbest thing ever. If it didn't happen, I wonder how you ended up playing Nyoken in a final 4. Final 4 with 2 players, hmm... wonder how that can happen.
Meanwhile, I took a walkover only under the condition that it couldn't be rescheduled, and then played the guy when I had no obligation to, via WCG rules. Yet, I got attacked mercilessly for months... Why? Other guy was Idra. Welcome to TL.net.
What... lol. I've never had anything to do with WCG.
Yeah I know, which irked me even more. Apparently you had some obsession with running tournaments whether involved or not. Interesting coincidence.
Wish there were more new players here... even if they don't have the cachet with the older fans (wait, am I "older" now?) I agree you gotta get new guys in and publicized if the scene's going to keep going.
Still great to pull up TL randomly and find a BW event on.
Its an end of year party stream, not a high skill tournament its meant to be full of jokes and laughs, zooming in on artosis's mouth when playing etc
Yeah 6k is alot of some players but tbh i think the prize pool was never the main thing it was to just advertise hey guys we have a prize pool too, look at current esport prize pools even for minor tournaments of big games 6k is like nothing to those games. Its nothing to those sponsers with samsung and tencent connections, if this event had no prize pool there would be no hate so this means some players think are entitled to this money that could have just gone else where. Twitch and its sponsers didnt want a high skill tournament they wanted day9 incontrol tastosis and these other personailities and history figures that they know will get along for this fun stream twitch didnt have to give a prize pool its just common practice for showmatches.
Its a party...like an end of year office party with a raffle, ur not entitled to any of the prize...thats not what its about its for fun just enjoy it.
Get angry if its actually a tournament because this is not one
Tldr: personailities were considered first...without them this doesnt even exist
On December 17 2017 04:53 playa wrote: The way to actually promote BW is to show that it can pay to actually play the game. These tournaments just foster "you should have been there to buddy up. Too late, but hope you enjoy our entertainment."
I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's really indicative of what BW has always been about. I once qualified for the final 4 of a WCG qualifer. There was no bracket or time given out, yet. Sheth and Nyoken decided to "MAKE THEIR OWN BRACKET" and time up, and not inform me nor the other guy (non old boys club member). They just played against each other to decide who would go to the USA finals...
The final 4 was supposed to be randomized; ie., no way to know who you should be playing until the admin made the bracket. It was the biggest joke to ever happen in esports. But, since it benefited the "old guard," it was viewed as the most legit thing ever. Totally normal and kosher. That's the kind of power that tl.net wielded over tournaments and the community. They do w/e they feel like, and if you're not apart of the buddy system, then you're a noob compared to us and you don't even deserve to play in things you qualified for
Hi. First, this never happened. I didn't have any clout with WCG. I wasn't a part of the old boys club then. I'm still not really now.
Second, I'm really sorry about the situation of the game and the tournament scene. I wish there was infinite tournaments with only the highest skill bracket of foreigners. I know I'm not good anymore. I'm just doing whatever small things I can to bring more attention to this game, because I love it. I think everyone at the event feels similarly. I hope our love for the game can help grow the scene and benefit the great foreigner players that are here.
It takes even more audacity to claim this didn't happen. Apparently screwing others over is such a norm that it's hard to remember. I'm sure it's still searchable on the site. I even remember the other player in the final 4 that you two screwed over (timestop).
BW has always been a joke. I hear Xeris, who had jack to do with anything, encouraged you two to do the dumbest thing ever. If it didn't happen, I wonder how you ended up playing Nyoken in a final 4. Final 4 with 2 players, hmm... wonder how that can happen.
Meanwhile, I took a walkover only under the condition that it couldn't be rescheduled, and then played the guy when I had no obligation to, via WCG rules. Yet, I got attacked mercilessly for months... Why? Other guy was Idra. Welcome to TL.net.
What... lol. I've never had anything to do with WCG.
Yeah I know, which irked me even more. Apparently you had some obsession with running tournaments whether involved or not. Interesting coincidence.
On December 17 2017 04:53 playa wrote: The way to actually promote BW is to show that it can pay to actually play the game. These tournaments just foster "you should have been there to buddy up. Too late, but hope you enjoy our entertainment."
I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's really indicative of what BW has always been about. I once qualified for the final 4 of a WCG qualifer. There was no bracket or time given out, yet. Sheth and Nyoken decided to "MAKE THEIR OWN BRACKET" and time up, and not inform me nor the other guy (non old boys club member). They just played against each other to decide who would go to the USA finals...
The final 4 was supposed to be randomized; ie., no way to know who you should be playing until the admin made the bracket. It was the biggest joke to ever happen in esports. But, since it benefited the "old guard," it was viewed as the most legit thing ever. Totally normal and kosher. That's the kind of power that tl.net wielded over tournaments and the community. They do w/e they feel like, and if you're not apart of the buddy system, then you're a noob compared to us and you don't even deserve to play in things you qualified for
Hi. First, this never happened. I didn't have any clout with WCG. I wasn't a part of the old boys club then. I'm still not really now.
Second, I'm really sorry about the situation of the game and the tournament scene. I wish there was infinite tournaments with only the highest skill bracket of foreigners. I know I'm not good anymore. I'm just doing whatever small things I can to bring more attention to this game, because I love it. I think everyone at the event feels similarly. I hope our love for the game can help grow the scene and benefit the great foreigner players that are here.
It takes even more audacity to claim this didn't happen. Apparently screwing others over is such a norm that it's hard to remember. I'm sure it's still searchable on the site. I even remember the other player in the final 4 that you two screwed over (timestop).
BW has always been a joke. I hear Xeris, who had jack to do with anything, encouraged you two to do the dumbest thing ever. If it didn't happen, I wonder how you ended up playing Nyoken in a final 4. Final 4 with 2 players, hmm... wonder how that can happen.
Meanwhile, I took a walkover only under the condition that it couldn't be rescheduled, and then played the guy when I had no obligation to, via WCG rules. Yet, I got attacked mercilessly for months... Why? Other guy was Idra. Welcome to TL.net.
What... lol. I've never had anything to do with WCG.
Yeah I know, which irked me even more. Apparently you had some obsession with running tournaments whether involved or not. Interesting coincidence.
It's a little wild to throw accusations this much later on in time, when all of this happened so long ago, no? Find the threads, Find proof, and stop derailing this thread, the event has been great...
I'll throw all the accusations I want, when it's already on the site. I remember Sheth saying Xeris talked them into it. Then the guy goes onto try to run every tournament out there. Look at me, I can run tournaments. Must be hard. So scummy, all around.
Point is, "tl favs" can do w/e they want and even ignore history on their site. Anyone else can be jewed and still be the bad guy. It's not even double standards. It's pure stupidity.
Finding proof? No one cared then, cause that's the tl.net way. Proof only matters if it favors "the good guys."
On December 19 2017 11:59 playa wrote: I'll throw all the accusations I want, when it's already on the site. I remember Sheth saying Xeris talked them into it. Then the guy goes onto try to run every tournament out there. Look at me, I can run tournaments. Must be hard. So scummy, all around.
Point is, "tl favs" can do w/e they want and even ignore history on their site. Anyone else can be jewed and still be the bad guy. It's not even double standards. It's pure stupidity.
Finding proof? No one cared then, cause that's the tl.net way. Proof only matters if it favors "the good guys."
You're trying to create a witch hunt essentially with no proof so yea it is pretty pathetic
On December 19 2017 11:59 playa wrote: I'll throw all the accusations I want, when it's already on the site. I remember Sheth saying Xeris talked them into it. Then the guy goes onto try to run every tournament out there. Look at me, I can run tournaments. Must be hard. So scummy, all around.
Point is, "tl favs" can do w/e they want and even ignore history on their site. Anyone else can be jewed and still be the bad guy. It's not even double standards. It's pure stupidity.
Finding proof? No one cared then, cause that's the tl.net way. Proof only matters if it favors "the good guys."
You're trying to create a witch hunt essentially with no proof so yea it is pretty pathetic
Not trying to create anything. It's like remembering 9/11. Where is the proof man? Reshow the video that's already on our site, so I can come up with some farcical excuses for it. Totally just imagining a final 4 of WCG where 2 players decided to play when there weren't even brackets made or a time listed. Who could possibly be at fault...
Just for "fun," I took the second. Correction, maybe it was only Nyoken who cited Xeris overeager, I'm an admin in tournaments that I have nothing to do with persona:
On June 01 2009 16:45 nyoken wrote: I'm going to make 1 big post explaining it.
I login today and see only chosen is in the channel. Chosen tells me timestop asked him to reschedule. I know nothing of this. Machinehead clearly knows nothing of this because he doesn't even know about the tournament. I don't believe Machinehead doesn't know because he just participated in the last qualifier. That was on sunday which got rescheduled to a different day because day[9] got agreement from all the players to change it. There was clearly no agreement in this one.
Based on chosen's post he says he is going to "try" to ask the admins to reschedule. That doesn't mean it will be. Since no admins are online Chosen suggests we play out our games now. I said we should play it later because I don't want any problems. Xeris enters the channel around this time and says that we should play it out, too. I agree to it. There are no admins so we play it out. I end up winning the bo3s.
People in here are saying that the finals can't be walkovered and that there was no time posted for the tournament.
Basically, everyone played stupid. All of the players, besides timestop, routinely were in the final 4s. The final 4 was always played out at 2 central and it was COMMON KNOWLEDGE there are no games to be played until the admin makes the bracket and puts it on their site. Unfortunately, WCG admins were so horrible that anything that took attention off them and their mistakes, they were always for it. Xeris... such a parasite.
On December 19 2017 11:59 playa wrote: I'll throw all the accusations I want, when it's already on the site. I remember Sheth saying Xeris talked them into it. Then the guy goes onto try to run every tournament out there. Look at me, I can run tournaments. Must be hard. So scummy, all around.
Point is, "tl favs" can do w/e they want and even ignore history on their site. Anyone else can be jewed and still be the bad guy. It's not even double standards. It's pure stupidity.
Finding proof? No one cared then, cause that's the tl.net way. Proof only matters if it favors "the good guys."
You're trying to create a witch hunt essentially with no proof so yea it is pretty pathetic
Not trying to create anything. It's like remembering 9/11. Where is the proof man? Reshow the video that's already on our site, so I can come up with some farcical excuses for it. Totally just imagining a final 4 of WCG where 2 players decided to play when there weren't even brackets made or a time listed. Who could possibly be at fault...
Just for "fun," I took the second. Correction, maybe it was only Nyoken who cited Xeris overeager, I'm an admin in tournaments that I have nothing to do with persona:
On June 01 2009 16:45 nyoken wrote: I'm going to make 1 big post explaining it.
I login today and see only chosen is in the channel. Chosen tells me timestop asked him to reschedule. I know nothing of this. Machinehead clearly knows nothing of this because he doesn't even know about the tournament. I don't believe Machinehead doesn't know because he just participated in the last qualifier. That was on sunday which got rescheduled to a different day because day[9] got agreement from all the players to change it. There was clearly no agreement in this one.
Based on chosen's post he says he is going to "try" to ask the admins to reschedule. That doesn't mean it will be. Since no admins are online Chosen suggests we play out our games now. I said we should play it later because I don't want any problems. Xeris enters the channel around this time and says that we should play it out, too. I agree to it. There are no admins so we play it out. I end up winning the bo3s.
People in here are saying that the finals can't be walkovered and that there was no time posted for the tournament.
Basically, everyone played stupid. All of the players, besides timestop routinely were in the final 4s. The final 4 was always played out at 2 central and it was COMMON KNOWLEDGE there are no games to be played until the admin makes the bracket and puts it on their site. Unfortunately, WCG admins were so horrible that anything that took attention off them and their mistakes, they were always for it. Xeris... such a parasite.
You have me so lost. I've yet to lie about a single thing in SC or SC 2. I've never felt much of a burden to provide proof -- especially when it's already on the site. I underestimated that some people still don't even want to acknowledge things they've already said and have done. Things written in stone... Speaks to a person's character.
This was a "million years ago." I only bring it up because of Seth's sudden appearance. I got absolutely KILLED on here, while trying to reschedule a match and playing it out, when an admin never agreed to the request, beforehand. These guys can decide to play each other in the final 4 and not give anyone a reschedule (when they had zero right to even play then, to begin with) and it's cool. Why is it cool? Cause it's Nyoken and Sheth.
My only point is, BW has always sucked for anyone not in the buddy club. The "new guys" shouldn't expect to ever see anything positive, outside of zotac, in regards to them. Play the game with a slave mentality and you won't be disappointed.
Really enjoyed this event. Wasn't even gonna tune in originally but then I couldn't resist and it hooked me. Also awesome games. iNcontroL vs Draco on Tau was great, and Jaeyun vs Nony's game on FS ftw!
Had a lot of fun, I had tears in my eyes (Tasteless' pet muta). Looking forward to tomorrow's cast, I hope it's as good as todays was. All the events these guys have done have been so good, this was probably the funniest so far though, I hope they make this a more regular thing.
On December 19 2017 09:58 Faustina wrote: I cannot believe docholiday is obsing... he notoriously historically misses key moments in games and drinks while casting
On December 19 2017 13:45 Trozz wrote: This is excellent! =] When you guys get together, it's just so funny.
I agree 100! There was times during the cast that I was dying laughing. The commentary during the Artosis games were amazing and Day9, Incontrol, Tasteless, Nony, Artosis all have so much good chemistry together when on the couch talking about the game or random things. I can't wait for the next 2 days!
Definitely a really great day of games and casting and general fun! I love that some of these old rivalries are showing up. Can't wait to see Artosis vs NonY tomorrow!
agreed, their current cast feels way more like the launch party cast.
the zotac one was good as well but it always felt like they were super tired. you could definitely feel the chemistry yesterday, that tasteless kid in particular has some serious swag.
On December 19 2017 09:58 Faustina wrote: I cannot believe docholiday is obsing... he notoriously historically misses key moments in games and drinks while casting
I really gotta say that the production quality and general entertainment of yesterday's cast was just top notch. Keep joking as much as you did yesterday despite what the (few) naysayers are saying in Twitch chat.
I won't make the live cast tonight but will definitely be watching the vods. Especially looking forward to Nony vs Artosis!
Edit: Artosis really is a champ for letting the rest of the crew joke about his mouth when he's playing, lol!
I almost thought the event was ruined there for a moment when i saw incontrol yawning once, but then NooonY (he's really trying hard to make people pronounce his name correctly :D) vs. Jaejun totally saved it!
Great job so far guys, really looking forward to days 2&3.
I very much appreciate the things incontrol said about future events for the foreign community this coming year. Also that they understand that koreans are WAY too good in BW to participate in (most) foreign events, in that they have had a part of their culture that promoted and cultivated skill in the game that was in no way comparable to how the rest of the world learned and picked up Starcraft. I feel like some of these other organizers have had the idea that BW can become sort of like SC2 in that foreigners and koreans can comptete together, but incontrol and co knows better. If you want to promote the foreign community - you do whats best for the competition. There is too many leagues going on right now that allows koreans to participate and it would be really nice to have events that focus on foreigners only.
On December 19 2017 23:58 SCC-Faust wrote: I don't think I'll be able to catch it live today so I hope tasteless winks at the camera for me when I watch the VOD.
I caught some of it last night, one thing that I noticed is that the in game commentary quality was very high (especially in comparison to ZOTAC), it helps a lot that the casters know the players and their play styles.
On December 19 2017 23:58 SCC-Faust wrote: I don't think I'll be able to catch it live today so I hope tasteless winks at the camera for me when I watch the VOD.
hey bud, happy birthday
Thanks man I love you. It is technically tomrorow but it is my korean birthday today.
Maybe I'm just dreaming but I think if see a NonY vs Draco MU Nony should have a chance since PvP is a lot about army control and he excels at that, despite not putting many hours into BW lately (his focus is on SC2 atm iirc).
On December 20 2017 01:02 juvenal wrote: Btw does anyone know the actual maximum number of units one can recall?
That would be a nice question for a quiz bot! Correct answers is this: recall is an area of effect spell and not limited to the amount of units.
Thus you can stack all your workers on one patch and recall them. so technically the highest amount of units you can recall is 198 probes+200scv+200drones=598 units.
That includes having one arbiter for recall (2 supply). You already killed your dark archon that you used for mind control in order to build 2 more probes!
Fun question, fun answer! Merry christmas ya'll!
E: actually when you build overlords and managed to stack them in the AOE of the recall, the amount of units you can recall is only being Limited by the minerals being available on the Map!
On December 20 2017 01:02 juvenal wrote: Btw does anyone know the actual maximum number of units one can recall?
That would be a nice question for a quiz bot! Correct answers is this: recall is an area of effect spell and not limited to the amount of units.
Thus you can stack all your workers on one patch and recall them. so technically the highest amount of units you can recall is 198 probes+200scv+200drones=598 units.
That includes having one arbiter for recall (2 supply). You already killed your dark archon that you used for mind control in order to build 2 more probes!
Fun question, fun answer! Merry christmas ya'll!
E: actually when you build overlords and managed to stack them in the AOE of the recall, the amount of units you can recall is only being Limited by the minerals being available on the Map!
Correction: Arbiter is 4 supply
And also, it is limited by surface area - you can't recall 600 units on one spot. It will probably max at around 40ish workers on the ground, plus you can recall another maybe 40 scourge
On December 20 2017 01:02 juvenal wrote: Btw does anyone know the actual maximum number of units one can recall?
That would be a nice question for a quiz bot! Correct answers is this: recall is an area of effect spell and not limited to the amount of units.
Thus you can stack all your workers on one patch and recall them. so technically the highest amount of units you can recall is 198 probes+200scv+200drones=598 units.
That includes having one arbiter for recall (2 supply). You already killed your dark archon that you used for mind control in order to build 2 more probes!
Fun question, fun answer! Merry christmas ya'll!
E: actually when you build overlords and managed to stack them in the AOE of the recall, the amount of units you can recall is only being Limited by the minerals being available on the Map!
Correction: Arbiter is 4 supply
And also, it is limited by surface area - you can't recall 600 units on one spot. It will probably max at around 40ish workers on the ground, plus you can recall another maybe 40 scourge
yeah this is correct, except that you can actually fit like 100 workers in one recall-exit-area. Sadly, you can't recall burrowed units, so you can't put 400 lings on top of each other and recall those either.
I would however assume that if you go all out on the scourge + probes mining on a patch, one recall could probably get something like 180 units total, about 105 peons and 75 scourge.
Edit: lings take a lot less space. You can fit at least 230 zerglings in one recall-exit-area. In theory, if you play team melee and you have two different players who all hotkey 10 groups of 12 zerglings, burrow them in one spot, then unburrow all of them at the same time so they are stacking, and you also stack like 75 scourge on top of that, it should be possible to recall about 300 units in one recall. The thing is that the recall exit area is quite a bit bigger than the area recalled, so it would require stacking to get the most. Unburrowed, non-stacked lings you can only get 80 of.
On December 20 2017 01:02 juvenal wrote: Btw does anyone know the actual maximum number of units one can recall?
That would be a nice question for a quiz bot! Correct answers is this: recall is an area of effect spell and not limited to the amount of units.
Thus you can stack all your workers on one patch and recall them. so technically the highest amount of units you can recall is 198 probes+200scv+200drones=598 units.
That includes having one arbiter for recall (2 supply). You already killed your dark archon that you used for mind control in order to build 2 more probes!
Fun question, fun answer! Merry christmas ya'll!
E: actually when you build overlords and managed to stack them in the AOE of the recall, the amount of units you can recall is only being Limited by the minerals being available on the Map!
Correction: Arbiter is 4 supply
And also, it is limited by surface area - you can't recall 600 units on one spot. It will probably max at around 40ish workers on the ground, plus you can recall another maybe 40 scourge
yeah this is correct, except that you can actually fit like 100 workers in one recall-exit-area. Sadly, you can't recall burrowed units, so you can't put 400 lings on top of each other and recall those either.
I would however assume that if you go all out on the scourge + probes mining on a patch, one recall could probably get something like 180 units total, about 105 peons and 75 scourge.
Edit: lings take a lot less space. You can fit at least 230 zerglings in one recall-exit-area. In theory, if you play team melee and you have two different players who all hotkey 10 groups of 12 zerglings, burrow them in one spot, then unburrow all of them at the same time so they are stacking, and you also stack like 75 scourge on top of that, it should be possible to recall about 300 units in one recall. The thing is that the recall exit area is quite a bit bigger than the area recalled, so it would require stacking to get the most. Unburrowed, non-stacked lings you can only get 80 of.
Right. I was just throwing an arbitrary number out there; I'm not exactly sure how many units you can actually recall, but lings and scourge are probably best.
I just caught the last game between Nony and Jaeyun yesterday. I'm guessing that was the best game of yesterday based on how that looked, but I'm not sure I'll be able to watch the other 8 hours.
Any other recommended series/matches/ inbetween stuff?
I'm in it for the Chill, nostalgia, good games, bad games, fun games, UMS or teamgames so if anything stuck out for you yesterday please recommend some nice recommendations!
On December 20 2017 05:15 SirGlinG wrote: I just caught the last game between Nony and Jaeyun yesterday. I'm guessing that was the best game of yesterday based on how that looked, but I'm not sure I'll be able to watch the other 8 hours.
Any other recommended series/matches/ inbetween stuff?
I'm in it for the Chill, nostalgia, good games, bad games, fun games, UMS or teamgames so if anything stuck out for you yesterday please recommend some nice recommendations!
Gotta say you folks summed the subject up pretty well and gave some very encouraging shoutouts to top foreign players. Also great exposure, i hope sponsors will embrace the idea and create open tours in 2018!
So big thx to incontrol, Tastosis, Draco for doing this!
I hope you understand the (overly) negative criticism that was voiced in this thread as what it is: just dissapointment by true fans who wish to see foreign BW do well.
Pretty cool event in the long run, would be awesome to get some shoutouts for some smaller events. You guys have 8k viewers and it'd be cool to give some exposure to some of the smaller events running on TL!
6k$ splitted between sc2 players, 2kmmr players and casters. What an amazing show! It really helps the bw foreign scene, cant wait for the next couch event.
On December 20 2017 09:04 ppp87 wrote: 6k$ splitted between sc2 players, 2kmmr players and casters. What an amazing show! It really helps the bw foreign scene, cant wait for the next couch event.
12k people watching and everyone having a good time with the game you love. Stop being a cunt and just try and enjoy something.
really fun event and really enjoying watching it. I hope for many more - and that all of you guys sign up for some of the weekly tournaments that have been going on.
I haven't taken notice of the starcraft scene in years, and this is just fantastic. It's renewed my interest in the game, I've already reinstalled SC2 and bought Remastered. Having these guys all together again for a HomestoryCup style Mini tournament is just bringing it all back
On December 20 2017 09:40 EpicDyo wrote: I haven't taken notice of the starcraft scene in years, and this is just fantastic. It's renewed my interest in the game, I've already reinstalled SC2 and bought Remastered. Having these guys all together again for a HomestoryCup style Mini tournament is just bringing it all back
Hahaha this is amazing to hear! Yeah it has stoked my interest again as well. After all the recent drama on TL I was feeling pretty burned out, but their enthusiasm and enjoyment of the game has kept me playing all day!
Blizzard deserves the slowest of slow claps for managing to accidentally break the game mid-tournament, like the electrician who shuts down the power to a whole block trying to fix a street lamp
Lol the patch breaking the finals sucked, but its more hype for tomorrow! Sadly I'll be at work...will be watching the VOD's, gogo iNcoNtroL fighting ... I know My boy the foreigner hope Draco will take it though I think 3-0.
Yea i like the hype buildup, its better this way. I probably wouldnt have tuned in to watch the custom game/sc2 portion of the event but now i might stick around after the finals.
On December 20 2017 09:32 TT1 wrote: blizzard needs to get in on this, plz :x
I guess they did get in on it pretty directly, but not in a helpful way!
Am totally hooked, very unpretentious, surprisingly good production and very entertaining. [high-pitched: or is it!?] PS: do scarabs deal friendly-fire damage?
Casters are great! I'm really enjoying their casual talk an teasing each other and next moment they give me very good information regarding ongoing game or BW world in general.
Also Nony and Draco are great addons between matches as co-casters. They both have razor sharp analysis.
Overall just hyped what next is coming from Incontrol, Day9, Tastosis and rest of the gang!
PS: I'm not sure if it is possible but after match end it would be great to have a talk with both players, not just winner. Kawaii showed in ZOTAC cup that he can do a great analysis of the matches and I was hopping he will also have a chance to analyse his games. Also overall it would be good (and fair) to hear what the losers has to say
On December 20 2017 21:18 Cvitak46 wrote: I could watch this every week!
Casters are great! I'm really enjoying their casual talk an teasing each other and next moment they give me very good information regarding ongoing game or BW world in general.
Also Nony and Draco are great addons between matches as co-casters. They both have razor sharp analysis.
Overall just hyped what next is coming from Incontrol, Day9, Tastosis and rest of the gang!
PS: I'm not sure if it is possible but after match end it would be great to have a talk with both players, not just winner. Kawaii showed in ZOTAC cup that he can do a great analysis of the matches and I was hopping he will also have a chance to analyse his games. Also overall it would be good (and fair) to hear what the losers has to say
Agreed, having NonY on the couch a bit was a real pleasure. He's well spoken and has fantastic knowledge about the game. Terrific event so far, you can tell that everyone is friends w/ one-another and it makes a very happy/hilarious environment!
I want to see more jaeyun. I really hope they don't stop hosting these events. I know there is some criticism towards them, but I really love the vibe.
On December 20 2017 21:44 SCC-Faust wrote: I want to see more jaeyun. I really hope they don't stop hosting these events. I know there is some criticism towards them, but I really love the vibe.
Agree with you. As someone who has hoped on late BW train called "Remastered" I'm really a big newb but after this event Jaeyun has a new fan
On December 20 2017 13:33 KalWarkov wrote: doubt draco will drop a map in the finals tbh
Draco was very fortunate to win game 2 in their first series. If Incontrol can get some unorthodox games going again, he'll have a chance to make it interesting, although I don't think it'll be enough to win the series
it's refreshing to hear a commentary without the 'filler' stuff. Some silences where observers are simply observing and wondering, like it's normal in other sports.
On December 21 2017 08:05 TT1 wrote: no need to feed someone looking for attention. just ignore him, everyone else does
Nah. He got banned. The "need" is discouraging trash
That works on TL because it's heavily moderated but you still cant let trolls get to you (if you do you'll just end up replying to 20 ppl a day on reddit). You're going into your finals match and you're thinking about what some random dude on TL is saying, it's just a waste of time and energy. Giving importance to his post will have a negative impact on you mentally and you're giving the person what he wants.
Be happy with your performance, you got to the finals and showed good games throughout the event. Who gives a fuck about some random dude on TL? This was another extremely successful tournament, fuck the jealous haters, keep giving BW exposure with quality events and force Blizzard's hand to get involved in the game. Great event, hope to see more of you guys in the future.
On December 21 2017 08:05 TT1 wrote: no need to feed someone looking for attention. just ignore him, everyone else does
Nah. He got banned. The "need" is discouraging trash
That works on TL because it's heavily moderated but you still cant let trolls get to you (if you do you'll just end up replying to 20 ppl a day on reddit). You're going into your finals match and you're thinking about what some random dude on TL is saying, it's just a waste of time and energy. Giving importance to his post will have a negative impact on you mentally and you're giving the person what he wants.
Be happy with your performance, you got to the finals and showed good games throughout the event. Who gives a fuck about some random dude on TL? This was another extremely successful tournament, fuck the jealous haters, keep giving BW exposure with quality events and force Blizzard's hand to get involved in the game. Great event, hope to see more of you guys in the future.
Don't read too much into what I typed lol. I just don't like trash.. didn't impact me at all.
On December 21 2017 08:05 TT1 wrote: no need to feed someone looking for attention. just ignore him, everyone else does
Nah. He got banned. The "need" is discouraging trash
That works on TL because it's heavily moderated but you still cant let trolls get to you (if you do you'll just end up replying to 20 ppl a day on reddit). You're going into your finals match and you're thinking about what some random dude on TL is saying, it's just a waste of time and energy. Giving importance to his post will have a negative impact on you mentally and you're giving the person what he wants.
Be happy with your performance, you got to the finals and showed good games throughout the event. Who gives a fuck about some random dude on TL? This was another extremely successful tournament, fuck the jealous haters, keep giving BW exposure with quality events and force Blizzard's hand to get involved in the game. Great event, hope to see more of you guys in the future.
Don't read too much into what I typed lol. I just don't like trash.. didn't impact me at all.
How can you play a final and also check fórums and get into a fight with a troll ? :D i will be so angry playing lol
That was fun 15,000 viewers for the finals is pretty solid. It would be nice if Blizzard would support these events with at least some advertising, or at the very least, not break the game with a patch right before the finals. I still feel that there's more people out there that would enjoy the chill atmosphere and humor that never knew it was happening.
Tastosis won the Xmas sweater (read: swagger) contest though, no doubt in my mind. Totally lovely, would like a first-hand account of how it compared to a recent Homestory Cup.
The tournament was nicely organized and I enjoyed watching bw again. I hope we can see more of this perhaps in a more serious setting! Thank you for organizing this
Was an absolute blast and I thought it was fun to get to know some of these players a bit better and revisit some of the old greats like Sheth and WhiteRa
The viewership for an event on monday-wednesday was incredible AND it wasn't really advertised at all.. amazing. We had around 10k+ with peaks (after host) of 32k and a high today around 15k. For Broodwar at these hours / days is AMAZING. We got great feedback and hope to springboard this into more events in 2018.
I'm highly motivated to do my part. If you are one of those guys who were trashing on the event beforehand please reroute those feelings towards helping make what you want more possible as opposed to shitting on the things you don't prefer.. I don't think anyone looks at this and HATES IT but they were sad it wasn't exactly what they wanted (a top tier seriously casted foreigner bw event). I'd like for us to have BOTH and no amount of toxicity is going to make that happen.
Anyways, thanks for watching and cheers to you all <3
I enjoyed every second of this tournament that I got to watch. The casters were hilarious, especially incontrol with the artosis impressions. Congrats to Draco, but even more, congrats to incontrol for getting 2nd place.
On December 21 2017 10:04 soujiro_ wrote: congrats to draco also respect to XenOsky and his truth bombs
His truth bomb in reality is an idiot bomb, without those 4 you wouldn't even see a foreign BW event. His statement is the exact opposite of what they're doing. Event-wise BW already has nothing, they're giving the foreign scene exposure. Do you think Blizzard would ever consider hosting BW events if they don't see it being profitable in the slightest way? What they're doing is actually helping the growth of the game, by seeing consistent viewership Blizzard might eventually consider hosting foreign events which would obviously be beneficial for the entire community.
The community should be way more supportive, everyone's in the same boat here. At the end of the day we all love the game and wanna see it grow, that's the only thing that matters.
This was a blast, and I'm amazed how many people were watching, too, especially with the influx from shroud's stream. (looking down to see 30k+ people watching broodwar in 2018, I suddenly felt like I'd taken a time machine back to 2009 again.)
It's been many, many years since I've laughed anywhere near this hard at a live cast of ANYTHING. I'd love if somebody could compile together all the highlights of the 3 day cast because some of those bizarre tangents were solid gold. Thanks a heap to iNcontroL, Arty, Tasteless and Day9 for doing this I'm really hoping you're right about this springboarding more BW events next year, to to fill in those long gaps between ASL seasons.
edit: and congrats to Draco too! I was super impressed with his play here and at the ZOTAC cup as well, he's the man to watch out for I think.
On December 21 2017 12:19 halomonian wrote: we need now a bigger bash, with all the western old school and new school, very HSC esque. And can we please get day9 to play on one of these tours?
I can't say for sure, but given the fact Sean wants to teach people I wonder if he's worried about playing on Camera as if he's not as good as people think he is people will unfortunately rip into him and say he shouldn't be teaching anyone. The internet sucks.
On December 21 2017 12:19 halomonian wrote: we need now a bigger bash, with all the western old school and new school, very HSC esque. And can we please get day9 to play on one of these tours?
On December 21 2017 12:19 halomonian wrote: we need now a bigger bash, with all the western old school and new school, very HSC esque. And can we please get day9 to play on one of these tours?
I can't say for sure, but given the fact Sean wants to teach people I wonder if he's worried about playing on Camera as if he's not as good as people think he is people will unfortunately rip into him and say he shouldn't be teaching anyone. The internet sucks.
His job is being a caster, he used to be really good and he still has a ton of knowledge, that hasn't gone anywhere. Being good at BW means playing a lot and that's extremely time consuming, when you're 30+ it's tough to find the time and energy to do so.
People find enjoyment in different things, it should be obvious to everyone that Day[9] loves the theoretical/analytical side of the game. If he finds pleasure in analyzing/talking about the game then so be it, who are we to tell him what he should be doing with his time? I'm the same way (i'm sure a lot of you are as well), i like both watching and playing BW but given the choice i'd rather watch games.
I stopped playing 2-3 months ago, my skill level is dog shit compared to what it was just a few months ago.. i still have the same amount of game knowledge tho. A high end player will retain his game knowledge, to question his credibility based on his current lvl of play is just dumb (directed at your hypothetical statement Qikz, not you).
This was the most fun I've had watching an event for at least a year. It's weird to feel like I'm buddies with a group of people who don't know me and who have never interacted with me, but it really felt like hanging out with a group of old friends. Thanks everyone. <3
On December 22 2017 00:57 Alpha-NP- wrote: I wish some broodwar players like Bonyth Sziky and Trutacz were invited to this. They are in better shape than Draco and Incontrol.
TrutaCz isn't even playing Brood War.
Sziky isn't exactly in shape either, it would be a close match vs Draco's current level.
On December 21 2017 12:19 halomonian wrote: we need now a bigger bash, with all the western old school and new school, very HSC esque. And can we please get day9 to play on one of these tours?
On December 21 2017 12:19 halomonian wrote: we need now a bigger bash, with all the western old school and new school, very HSC esque. And can we please get day9 to play on one of these tours?
I can't say for sure, but given the fact Sean wants to teach people I wonder if he's worried about playing on Camera as if he's not as good as people think he is people will unfortunately rip into him and say he shouldn't be teaching anyone. The internet sucks.
His job is being a caster, he used to be really good and he still has a ton of knowledge, that hasn't gone anywhere. Being good at BW means playing a lot and that's extremely time consuming, when you're 30+ it's tough to find the time and energy to do so.
People find enjoyment in different things, it should be obvious to everyone that Day[9] loves the theoretical side of the game. If he finds pleasure in analyzing/talking about the game then so be it, who are we to tell him what he should be doing with his time? I'm the same way (i'm sure a lot of you are as well), i like both watching and playing BW but given the choice i'd rather watch games.
I stopped playing 2-3 months ago, my skill level is dog shit compared to what it was just a few months ago.. i still have the same amount of knowledge tho. A high end player will retain his game knowledge, to question his credibility based on his current lvl of play is just dumb (directed at your hypothetical statement Qikz, not you).
You have to give day9 credit for having a strong theoretical understanding for strateg, tactics and gane flow. I agree that's not connected to current playing skill.
Then, it's thing that isn't accepted in the BW community at all: that somebody can have a strong understanding of the game while not being able to execute it properly.
On December 21 2017 12:19 halomonian wrote: we need now a bigger bash, with all the western old school and new school, very HSC esque. And can we please get day9 to play on one of these tours?
On December 21 2017 16:47 Qikz wrote:
On December 21 2017 12:19 halomonian wrote: we need now a bigger bash, with all the western old school and new school, very HSC esque. And can we please get day9 to play on one of these tours?
I can't say for sure, but given the fact Sean wants to teach people I wonder if he's worried about playing on Camera as if he's not as good as people think he is people will unfortunately rip into him and say he shouldn't be teaching anyone. The internet sucks.
His job is being a caster, he used to be really good and he still has a ton of knowledge, that hasn't gone anywhere. Being good at BW means playing a lot and that's extremely time consuming, when you're 30+ it's tough to find the time and energy to do so.
People find enjoyment in different things, it should be obvious to everyone that Day[9] loves the theoretical side of the game. If he finds pleasure in analyzing/talking about the game then so be it, who are we to tell him what he should be doing with his time? I'm the same way (i'm sure a lot of you are as well), i like both watching and playing BW but given the choice i'd rather watch games.
I stopped playing 2-3 months ago, my skill level is dog shit compared to what it was just a few months ago.. i still have the same amount of knowledge tho. A high end player will retain his game knowledge, to question his credibility based on his current lvl of play is just dumb (directed at your hypothetical statement Qikz, not you).
You have to give day9 credit for having a strong theoretical understanding for strateg, tactics and gane flow. I agree that's not connected to current playing skill.
Then, it's thing that isn't accepted in the BW community at all: that somebody can have a strong understanding of the game while not being able to execute it properly.
I think it's fair to say that the grand majority (if not all) of low level players lack some degree of strategic knowledge about the game. Simply put, until you reach a godlike mechanical level, action prioritization is a very strong skill to have, which is something that low level players don't do well at all. It has nothing to do with mechanical ability, it's a large piece of strategy that low level players are missing.
It's like if you are playing turn base strategy and you know all of the unit counters, but you don't know which actions are most valuable (and in which order they should be performed)... You only get a certain amount of turns, you have to make the most of them.
Thus, I think low level players confuse a good understanding for unit counters and behavior with global strategy, there's just a lot more that goes into it.
On December 21 2017 12:19 halomonian wrote: we need now a bigger bash, with all the western old school and new school, very HSC esque. And can we please get day9 to play on one of these tours?
On December 21 2017 16:47 Qikz wrote:
On December 21 2017 12:19 halomonian wrote: we need now a bigger bash, with all the western old school and new school, very HSC esque. And can we please get day9 to play on one of these tours?
I can't say for sure, but given the fact Sean wants to teach people I wonder if he's worried about playing on Camera as if he's not as good as people think he is people will unfortunately rip into him and say he shouldn't be teaching anyone. The internet sucks.
His job is being a caster, he used to be really good and he still has a ton of knowledge, that hasn't gone anywhere. Being good at BW means playing a lot and that's extremely time consuming, when you're 30+ it's tough to find the time and energy to do so.
People find enjoyment in different things, it should be obvious to everyone that Day[9] loves the theoretical side of the game. If he finds pleasure in analyzing/talking about the game then so be it, who are we to tell him what he should be doing with his time? I'm the same way (i'm sure a lot of you are as well), i like both watching and playing BW but given the choice i'd rather watch games.
I stopped playing 2-3 months ago, my skill level is dog shit compared to what it was just a few months ago.. i still have the same amount of knowledge tho. A high end player will retain his game knowledge, to question his credibility based on his current lvl of play is just dumb (directed at your hypothetical statement Qikz, not you).
You have to give day9 credit for having a strong theoretical understanding for strateg, tactics and gane flow. I agree that's not connected to current playing skill.
Then, it's thing that isn't accepted in the BW community at all: that somebody can have a strong understanding of the game while not being able to execute it properly.
I think it's fair to say that the grand majority (if not all) of low level players lack some degree of strategic knowledge about the game. Simply put, until you reach a godlike mechanical level, action prioritization is a very strong skill to have, which is something that low level players don't do well at all. It has nothing to do with mechanical ability, it's a large piece of strategy that low level players are missing.
It's like if you are playing turn base strategy and you know all of the unit counters, but you don't know which actions are most valuable (and in which order they should be performed)... You only get a certain amount of turns, you have to make the most of them.
Thus, I think low level players confuse a good understanding for unit counters and behavior with global strategy, there's just a lot more that goes into it.
I agree with what you said.
About Day9, he often makes really strong analytical comments, which you would only expect from a player actively practicing and playing at a very high level. I'm not aware of him practicing a lot, but, he always sounds like he knows exactly what's going on and what's really important at any given moment of time. It's impressive to me, because I always need to play a lot to have the same kind of understanding which seemingly just comes natural to him in BW from being very good in the past.
I think Day9 can get rusty and forget a lot of stuff aswell, but I think he said at the event that he has watched most of the vods from larva's youtube or something like that. If you have played the game a ton in the past, but don't play a lot now, I think you can still basically understand very high level decisions/things just by watching pro games carefully.
Loved the event SO MUCH! Thank You, guys! And with such viewership, Broodwar can't be ignored anymore. I'm excited for future events, high skill, low skill, all of them!
Awesome event, great to hear the stories and the new and old school strats. GG Incontrol, great play and no illusions how anyone (not just Geoff) would fare against Draco.
Holy fuck Incontrol on finals? Is this 2007 again? I'm impressed.
I think I enjoyed this event even more than previous ones. Wish to see more current foreigners clashing with ex top pros and plus you can mix ex SC2 pros too. Having a korean pro as the final boss on top of that will be icing on the cake - we saw how Larva delivered.
EPT
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000 or something like that to watch old OSL streams? Like a decade ago.
