Just so this isn't taken the wrong way, I'd like to preface it by saying that I absolutely do wish there were big money tournaments for the top foreign players. They work had and they deserve it without a doubt.
That said, there's something that I'm curious about.
My premise: For a tournament to be worth investing in/sponsoring, it must have the promise of sufficient viewership to provide a reasonable Return on Investment for the sponsor. (If you disagree with this premise, please let me know why. But, I believe it's a fair statement for any sort of sustainable sponsorship ecosystem.)
My curiosity: We have multiple tournaments every weekend which are participated in by the majority of the top players in our foreign community. The viewership for these events is generally quite low, usually no more than 1000 viewers and typically substantially less than that.
What is it that leads those of you arguing that an event like this should be about skill/top players to believe that a larger prize pool would result in substantially larger viewership to justify the investment of a sponsor?
In closing: I believe that if there were statistics that showed it would be profitable for a sponsor to invest these larger prize pools in events for top foreign players, then they would be sponsoring them. The reason these large prize pools go to events like this that *more* about fun than competition is because they appeal to a broader audience and therefore have a higher potential ROI.
I'd like to hear from those of you who disagree with me as to why. I'm perfectly happy to be wrong in this case, but I haven't come up with any reasonable logic to prove myself wrong.
On December 18 2017 23:15 AManHasNoName wrote: Just so this isn't taken the wrong way, I'd like to preface it by saying that I absolutely do wish there were big money tournaments for the top foreign players. They work had and they deserve it without a doubt.
That said, there's something that I'm curious about.
My premise: For a tournament to be worth investing in/sponsoring, it must have the promise of sufficient viewership to provide a reasonable Return on Investment for the sponsor. (If you disagree with this premise, please let me know why. But, I believe it's a fair statement for any sort of sustainable sponsorship ecosystem.)
My curiosity: We have multiple tournaments every weekend which are participated in by the majority of the top players in our foreign community. The viewership for these events is generally quite low, usually no more than 1000 viewers and typically substantially less than that.
What is it that leads those of you arguing that an event like this should be about skill/top players to believe that a larger prize pool would result in substantially larger viewership to justify the investment of a sponsor?
In closing: I believe that if there were statistics that showed it would be profitable for a sponsor to invest these larger prize pools in events for top foreign players, then they would be sponsoring them. The reason these large prize pools go to events like this that *more* about fun than competition is because they appeal to a broader audience and therefore have a higher potential ROI.
I'd like to hear from those of you who disagree with me as to why. I'm perfectly happy to be wrong in this case, but I haven't come up with any reasonable logic to prove myself wrong.
i think if we put Day9 Artosis Tasteless to Cast TL Open we will get similar viewers but obviously the prize is 200$(and i think is amazing,We used to play for years defiler tours for 50$ or 75$ and we did keep the community running for a long time) and there are not salaries for the casters :/
Good players can also play for fun, no reason not to invite them really IMO and more people would watch it and bring more cash. Still, it's better than nothing especially after a long BW draught that involved all those casters.
It all depends on who picked up the lineup for the 6k$ tourney. - If it's Twitch then whatever, there's nothing we can do, they dont know the game. - If it's the "couch guys, who know the game best" then it's more problematic because it means they have convinced Twitch it was the best possible lineup to invest their BW's 6k$ (+ the whole event price) which is absurd. And since 2 of the casters are also going to compete I can only assume that's what actually happened.
On December 17 2017 04:53 playa wrote: The way to actually promote BW is to show that it can pay to actually play the game. These tournaments just foster "you should have been there to buddy up. Too late, but hope you enjoy our entertainment."
I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's really indicative of what BW has always been about. I once qualified for the final 4 of a WCG qualifer. There was no bracket or time given out, yet. Sheth and Nyoken decided to "MAKE THEIR OWN BRACKET" and time up, and not inform me nor the other guy (non old boys club member). They just played against each other to decide who would go to the USA finals...
The final 4 was supposed to be randomized; ie., no way to know who you should be playing until the admin made the bracket. It was the biggest joke to ever happen in esports. But, since it benefited the "old guard," it was viewed as the most legit thing ever. Totally normal and kosher. That's the kind of power that tl.net wielded over tournaments and the community. They do w/e they feel like, and if you're not apart of the buddy system, then you're a noob compared to us and you don't even deserve to play in things you qualified for
Hi. First, this never happened. I didn't have any clout with WCG. I wasn't a part of the old boys club then. I'm still not really now.
Second, I'm really sorry about the situation of the game and the tournament scene. I wish there was infinite tournaments with only the highest skill bracket of foreigners. I know I'm not good anymore. I'm just doing whatever small things I can to bring more attention to this game, because I love it. I think everyone at the event feels similarly. I hope our love for the game can help grow the scene and benefit the great foreigner players that are here.
On December 18 2017 05:14 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Honestly i didnt see the prize of the whole thing or even read the details,i knew a last year event was coming cuz draco said he was invited on his stream,the first thing i saw was the list of players in the top and posted a picture then that post,i actually understand now that for this specific event and what they wanna do it makes perfect sense,im not angry but im sad,very actually,incontrol said something very interesting,ask some folk what it takes,and in was gonna answer him well i have a section here on tl to help noobs,before remastered i gave replaypack from fish server and thx to'zimp'they were organized by reps vs pros,i streamed for the last years for the bw community,i donate to progamers streams and also donate to make bw tourneys,and then i realized that he was no talking about that. I see how 4 big events in a game that im considered by many one of the best outside Korea been made and not only me but all the current tops except koget (JUST KIDDING ) that no one likes him didnt get an invitation.i remember watching dracos stream after the esl open and i was chatting with him when all of sudden the zotac guy appeared and invited him to the zotac invitational,i wasnt jealous,the first thing that did come to my mind was .man what god this guy pray to,he said he is not catholic.and honestly is not all about prizes but for me was more like it is so cool flying overseas and meet the players that u play online with in offline competition and meet the people that used to be big deal long ago in the bw scene that u only know about them in interviews or articles,cuz in my mind it was proly the obvious move new blood meet old.Well in the end it was the whole group in every event and with the whole negativity your head just plays with you,i wish nothing but sucess to any bw event cuz i love this game and i consider it my best friend,i cant wish bad to my best friend.
We (me, you, bonyth, trutacz, terror, dandy etc etc) can fold for 10 dollars and make a tournament with each other. Prize pool will be a hundred times smaller, but the quality of the game is ten times better And since in this topic I see the interest of some people in such a show, maybe someone else will be able to support
Would donate £100.00 but all taking part would have to worship the ground I walk on and name their first born after me. Or merely show good games and save replays and upload them for the BW fanbase....I'm undecided .
OT: Good initiative, can appreciate another event but can also see the POVs of a lot of posters in the thread and their valid points. Honestly I wasn't expecting the event iNcontroL spoke of to be....well more of the same, but I do remember a similar event happening for SC2 either during the beta or at release.
Hopefully with the holiday season all but upon us more prospective fans and players will see the game and hijinks and get interested and more events to take place.
On December 17 2017 04:53 playa wrote: The way to actually promote BW is to show that it can pay to actually play the game. These tournaments just foster "you should have been there to buddy up. Too late, but hope you enjoy our entertainment."
I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's really indicative of what BW has always been about. I once qualified for the final 4 of a WCG qualifer. There was no bracket or time given out, yet. Sheth and Nyoken decided to "MAKE THEIR OWN BRACKET" and time up, and not inform me nor the other guy (non old boys club member). They just played against each other to decide who would go to the USA finals...
The final 4 was supposed to be randomized; ie., no way to know who you should be playing until the admin made the bracket. It was the biggest joke to ever happen in esports. But, since it benefited the "old guard," it was viewed as the most legit thing ever. Totally normal and kosher. That's the kind of power that tl.net wielded over tournaments and the community. They do w/e they feel like, and if you're not apart of the buddy system, then you're a noob compared to us and you don't even deserve to play in things you qualified for
Hi. First, this never happened. I didn't have any clout with WCG. I wasn't a part of the old boys club then. I'm still not really now.
Second, I'm really sorry about the situation of the game and the tournament scene. I wish there was infinite tournaments with only the highest skill bracket of foreigners. I know I'm not good anymore. I'm just doing whatever small things I can to bring more attention to this game, because I love it. I think everyone at the event feels similarly. I hope our love for the game can help grow the scene and benefit the great foreigner players that are here.
no problem, if it's just about that and you folks all just want to promote Broodwar everybody can happily donate their prize-money and or attendance money to:
Liquid`Nazgul
and he will fund TSL 5 from that. With open Qualifiers! Thx in advance mate! Thinking about it, it's fair enough if everybody donates half of it, foreign top players will be more than happy to compete in the toughest tournament of 2018 for 3k in prizes total!
Ask Tyler and the bois if they agree aswell, im sure they'll love my idea, will ya?
It's nice you view it this way Sheth, all sarcasm aside. I believe you really you feel that way and want to support Broodwar. But people are not upset you folks do a couch-nostalgia-meetup-event sponsored by twitch. They take issue on the
On December 16 2017 08:51 GTR wrote: $6,000 prize pool.
*spittake*
That's more then the total amount of prize money being distributed throughout the entire year 2017 for competitive foreigner tours that were accessible to everybody if I'm not mistaken. As long as sponsored Nostalgia Events have considerably bigger prizes that competitive open tournaments, there's bound to be unhappiness about it.
I don't wanna badmouth you or any participant here, the reasons why sponsors go that route are very obvious and have been discussed in this thread as well. Nothing we can do really, besides trying to get more publicity for the current top players. We need the support of folks like you in this who made a name for them in SC2 and have a big following. But for now and the immediate future, we have to take it as it is.
On December 18 2017 20:31 Grettin wrote: Holy shit this thread is a shitshow. I'll be tuning in regardless of the lineup.
It really is lol. It seems like every thread discussing older BW players have been extremely toxic, starting with the thread where it was announced that Day[9] would be doing a new BW Daily show and he was mocked for "leaving Brood War". Heck, the FilthyCup's were cancelled because he got tired of all the freaking complaining that goes on in this forum and decided it just wasn't worth his time and money anymore.
Hopefully this event gets put on the front page of Twitch, like the release event was. With this group of commentators plus the casual environment, it should be just as fun. I don't expect the ~30,000 viewers that the release event had but I think it can pull in quite a bit if it gets on the front page again.
On December 18 2017 20:31 Grettin wrote: Holy shit this thread is a shitshow. I'll be tuning in regardless of the lineup.
It really is lol. It seems like every thread discussing older BW players have been extremely toxic, starting with the thread where it was announced that Day[9] would be doing a new BW Daily show and he was mocked for "leaving Brood War". Heck, the FilthyCup's were cancelled because he got tired of all the freaking complaining that goes on in this forum and decided it just wasn't worth his time and money anymore.
Hopefully this event gets put on the front page of Twitch, like the release event was. With this group of commentators plus the casual environment, it should be just as fun. I don't expect the ~30,000 viewers that the release event had but I think it can pull in quite a bit if it gets on the front page again.
I didn’t know about that... that’s really sad that people would be nasty to Sean. He has done so damn much for this community and for people to shit talk is appalling.
Being a member of this so called “silent majority” group (created this account to basically just share my opinion), I thought I could share the view of one member of this group.
I go back to the GOMTV days, and really enjoy watching competitive BW. However, time limitation only allow me to now watch this casually whenever I have a minute, which more often than not, means watching the recorded videos, and not stream.
1. As I am not a hardcore player, the most important for me are the casters to be entertained (basically, the choice I make is not whether to watch an “casual invite tournament” vs “qualifying only tournament”, but BW tournament vs a regular TV show). As such, the casters need to know the current meta of builds, able to comment on the choices of the players, but make this entertaining to watch. Derailing too much, as in some previous tournament makes me basically just fast-forward (e.g. not starting talking about the actual game but old stories until min 6 when the mutas are already over the Terran base...), and being too “nerdy” is just boring too watch. However, I use these videos to also learn new tactics/builds, so comment on the placemen/timing of buildings are great. I personally like the Artoisis/Tasteless duo, and follow them on Twitter to watch their BW casts and love the ASL 1-4 seasons. This is one of the reason why I am not watching the other Foreign BW matches. I have tried to find other tournaments, but the effort needed to first find the “best” tournament, and find the correct order of videos in the tournament (e.g. not start with finals that pop up first...) with what I view as “good” casters is just daunting.
2. I don’t care anything about the old school BW players. I am going to watch this, and would so regardless of whether the players were the top or second-tier. Not because I don’t want to see the best (which I DO), but out of lack of knowledge of the top players outside of Korea. I actually thought the guys in the latest Zotac cup represented the best of the Foreign BW community, and was a bit surprised to see all different names like Eonzerg pop up in this thread that I did not know about (sorry guys). This only goes to show that the promoters of these tournaments bear some responsibility to field the best to educate and promote the community. If the casual viewers do not know about the rest, this will be the only thing they would see.
As a consequence of the two points above, I don’t agree with the some of the points of the organizers that having the old dudes instead of the top foreign community represented is good for the game. I would prefer to have Artoisis/Tasteless (and Day9,Incontrol) as casters for a tournament with 16+ players representing the best the foreign community has to offer, that way at least we can give these new players something more to play for, while we as viewers are entertained.
That being said, I am really happy about this as well! I am looking forward to be entertained by the casters, but by looking at the competition for what it is, and not what it could be. Hope to see more cool stuff coming out of the SC:R community.
On December 19 2017 06:14 Jack_ wrote: What a game by WhiteRa!
WhiteRa putting on a contain clinic, I can't believe how many times he broke 2+ tanks and assorted other units with one reaver, one dragoon, and a handful of zealots.
EPT
but obviously the prize is 200$(and i think is amazing,We used to play for years defiler tours for 50$ or 75$ and we did keep the community running for a long time) and there are not salaries for the casters :/
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