EPTLarva's Open Letter to Fans and Zotac Players - Page 4
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SpringWind
China230 Posts
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FoR_BlueS
New Zealand21 Posts
I tried asking a few Chinese players to dig for some info regarding what exactly happened. According to what they described, Legend said he "sat there, not knowing what to do for half an hour" after the match (let's assume the translations are correct, as of now I cannot confirm this), this appears to indicate that Larva did not apologise right after the match, probably not realising how his actions affected Legend, and that Legend likely participated in the tournament with a very serious mindset, otherwise he would just leave with a smile. Larva likely realised the severity of the issue later and decided to apologise to Legend, only to be met with refusal. From a moral perspective, a public humiliation deserves a public apology, I can hardly imagine how a private apology after a public humiliation could work out for Legend (assuming that he is TRULY offended, it appears that this is the case in Chinese culture), therefore Legend's reason for refusing Larva's private apology does not seem to be entirely unjustified. Legend probably thought that Larva's offer wasn't sincere enough, thus rejected it. I think if it were a Westerner all of this wouldn't have happened due to different cultural customs and norms, but unfortunately this wasn't the case. Larva, likely accidentally or coincidentally, picked the wrong candidate for his shows. What's more unfortunate is that the Western audience has been easily manipulated by Larva's exploitation of the cultural gap between Western and Eastern cultures. Larva probably knew that in Western culture his behaviours would be less of a deal, especially in a show match, therefore Westerners would likely fail to realise how offensive his actions were in the eyes of Legend. Coupled with Legend's refusal of Larva's private apology, Larva has successfully painted himself as the honourable victim of a scandal, and portrayed Legend as a narrow-minded, egoistic loser who is too butthurt to act like a man. I make this deduction based on my experience as a fan of Eastern culture, so no, don't ask me which animes are good to watch otherwise you will spend the rest of your life infront of your computer...But you can start with Death Note. Once again, I have to say I am really amazed by Larva's emotional intelligence and showmanship, I have certainly learned a lot from observing this incident. However until I can dig up more information from Legend's side, conclusions should not be given regarding this incident, but since I do not know Legend nor do I know anyone who does know him personally I guess we will never have an answer. May the incident be settled by mature and responsible responses from both sides... | ||
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FoR_BlueS
New Zealand21 Posts
On December 06 2017 18:01 SpringWind wrote: Football,skating and now e-sports,south korea play a shameful role anywhere XD. To any and all Chinese posters on this thread, please do not escalate the discussion to nationalism and keep the discussion relevant to this incident. Unless you want to know who died in Death Note, if you haven't seen it yet that is...  | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1426 Posts
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FoR_BlueS
New Zealand21 Posts
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s_k_911
China361 Posts
On December 06 2017 18:29 FoR_BlueS wrote: To be honest, I am very impressed by Larva's social wisdom, not only is he a good BW player, he surely knows how to entertain his audience, 。。。 from both sides... here is what I heard about the timestamp from lx and his friends and this forum: local time 21:00 or more, game over,commentors and larva do interview. zotac twiter type larva champion lx's friends tell lx about the foot game in 30mins,lx sit still,no move ,and type the weibo in next 2hour,china webs media made a lot of news about the humiliating thing local time 1:00(second day),the staff(translator?) tell lx larva's word:"if you want an apology,I can apology to you in privite ". lx deny. then after 3hours, zotac china say ban larva. zotac twiter delete larva champion ? after lots' of hours,zotac us say we no ban larva. and then larva open letter. | ||
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kissayumi
China6 Posts
On December 06 2017 18:41 FoR_BlueS wrote: To any and all Chinese posters on this thread, please do not escalate the discussion to nationalism and keep the discussion relevant to this incident. Unless you want to know who died in Death Note, if you haven't seen it yet that is... Take a look at #57 and then think again who is keeping nationalism. | ||
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kissayumi
China6 Posts
On December 06 2017 16:43 jinjin5000 wrote: Anyways, if you guys don't quite understand why Chinese are outraged, its the mindset of "Humiliate a countryman, spit on entire nation". This mindset is common in Asia, especially japan/korea/China, but china has sheer amount of number despite the whole firewall stuff If small off comment that may be remotely negative on china on YouTube channel run by a white dude can spark outrage from thousands of Chinese, with tons of websites running article "white person talks shit on china", imagine what THIS did. If you want to know more about it, I suggest you watch channel: ADVchina. Amazing YouTube channel who speaks without any qualms about China and living there. They cover this topic often. Give this video a watch. Lol I don't know why you always want to emphasis this thing to a national level while actually it is not. Tell me in what other sport you can do such bad activity without a punishment and long suspend. So you think show that BM to your opponent is normal? Show match? Did you see players in Barcelona do that kind of thing during their friendly match? Did you see the same thing happen when any NBA team is in their global show match? Did you see the same thing happen when Chinese Pingpong player in a large lead? No you didn't and you will not because it is a normal rule that you SHOULD respect your opponent. You always mention "Chinese" is over reacting, is it true? I feel you are more excited because it is you not other people take legend as a representative of "Chinese" and you are imaging Larva is fooling "CHINESE player" and makes you excited. This is no good and not funny. And do not pretend to know China well and trying to sell your bias view. Again, stop making this thing "national". | ||
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FoR_BlueS
New Zealand21 Posts
On December 06 2017 19:08 s_k_911 wrote: here is what I heard about the timestamp from lx and his friends and this forum: local time 21:00 or more, game over,commentors and larva do interview. zotac twiter type larva champion lx's friends tell lx about the foot game in 30mins,lx sit still,no move ,and type the weibo in next 2hour,china webs media made a lot of news about the humiliating thing local time 1:00(second day),the staff(translator?) tell lx larva's word:"if you want an apology,I can apology to you in privite ". lx deny. then after 3hours, zotac china say ban larva. zotac twiter delete larva champion ? after lots' of hours,zotac us say we no ban larva. and then larva open letter. If that is the case, then Larva probably didn't realise the severity of the issue to Legend and decided later to mitigate the negative consequences from his behaviour. He should've offered a public apology instead as the humiliation was public, this was probably why Legend refused as he probably suspected Larva's intention wasn't sincere. This public statement by Larva intentionally omitted Legend, probably as a form of protest or provocation, after all, if I correctly understood the nationalistic ideology of East Asian cultures, Larva is probably seen as a national hero in Korea now that he publicly crushed and humiliated China's best player. For all those not familiar with East Asian cultures, one's feet is usually regarded as a symbol of the lowest status, defeating a country's best player with one's feet is sort of like raping the princess of a country after the fall of the nation, thus I can sort of understand why many Chinese players are so enraged while many Korean players are proud and strongly supportive of Larva's behaviour and response. It now seems apparent that Legend ended up biting the bullet Larva shot at him by rejecting Larva's private apology, this however became a justification for Larva, his omittance of Legend in this public statement shows it all. Now, two questions remain to be answered: 1) Following a public humiliation in front of an international audience, Legend likely rejected Larva's apology because he felt a private apology was insincere. Therefore, should a public humiliation demand a public apology, or is a private apology sufficient? (Given the cultural context of East Asian countries it appears quite obviouly that Larva's action was indeed an act of humiliation, even though he didn't mean it) 2) Is Larva's intention to apologise sincere? Legend would probably say no, but I can't be certain as I am not familiar with either of these players. The answer of the second question relies on the truth of the first question as premise, from a Western cultural standpoint I think the premise of the first question remains debatable as many of us do not see Larva's actions as an act of humiliation. I also don't think he intended to humiliate Legend, he probably just wanted to have some fun and make it to the headlines, but every Chinese player I've spoken to seemed to see Larva's actions as inappropriate, even some Koreans saw it as such, so I think we probably need to stop seeing this incident from a purely Western perspective and condemn Legend for being a salty crybaby and start to consider the cultural differences in East Asia. | ||
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FoR_BlueS
New Zealand21 Posts
On December 06 2017 23:53 kissayumi wrote: Take a look at #57 and then think again who is keeping nationalism. Well my friend, two wrongs doesn't make a right, just like how revenge would only cause reason for more revenge. What I was trying to say is that there are better ways to make a point than a purely nationalistic rant, I've known quite a few Koreans and many of them are very decent people, just like the Chinese friends that I have. | ||
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FoR_BlueS
New Zealand21 Posts
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kissayumi
China6 Posts
On December 07 2017 00:22 FoR_BlueS wrote: Well my friend, two wrongs doesn't make a right, just like how revenge would only cause reason for more revenge. What I was trying to say is that there are better ways to make a point than a purely nationalistic rant, I've known quite a few Koreans and many of them are very decent people, just like the Chinese friends that I have. I also have many Korean friends. I've just read your post above and I would say mostly I agree with your view. I want to say again I'm not pleased with the bad activity from player "Larva" himself. No matter who is the opponent and where he is from this is not a proper act in a public event. But when someone want to sell a bias view that "it is because Chinese are easily lighted" I must say I disagree with him. | ||
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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FoR_BlueS
New Zealand21 Posts
On December 07 2017 00:28 kissayumi wrote: I also have many Korean friends. I've just read your post above and I would say mostly I agree with your view. I want to say again I'm not pleased with the bad activity from player "Larva" himself. No matter who is the opponent and where he is from this is not a proper act in a public event. But when someone want to sell a bias view that "it is because Chinese are easily lighted" I must say I disagree with him. Fair enough, I understand where you're coming from. I know Chinese people have very high regards for the quality of respect, so I understand the frustration that many Chinese players have. | ||
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kissayumi
China6 Posts
On December 07 2017 00:16 FoR_BlueS wrote: If that is the case, then Larva probably didn't realise the severity of the issue to Legend and decided later to mitigate the negative consequences from his behaviour. He should've offered a public apology instead as the humiliation was public, this was probably why Legend refused as he probably suspected Larva's intention wasn't sincere. This public statement by Larva intentionally omitted Legend, probably as a form of protest or provocation, after all, if I correctly understood the nationalistic ideology of East Asian cultures, Larva is probably seen as a national hero in Korea now that he publicly crushed and humiliated China's best player. For all those not familiar with East Asian cultures, one's feet is usually regarded as a symbol of the lowest status, defeating a country's best player with one's feet is sort of like raping the princess of a country after the fall of the nation, thus I can sort of understand why many Chinese players are so enraged while many Korean players are proud and strongly supportive of Larva's behaviour and response. It now seems apparent that Legend ended up biting the bullet Larva shot at him by rejecting Larva's private apology, this however became a justification for Larva, his omittance of Legend in this public statement shows it all. Now, two questions remain to be answered: 1) Following a public humiliation in front of an international audience, Legend likely rejected Larva's apology because he felt a private apology was insincere. Therefore, should a public humiliation demand a public apology, or is a private apology sufficient? (Given the cultural context of East Asian countries it appears quite obviouly that Larva's action was indeed an act of humiliation, even though he didn't mean it) 2) Is Larva's intention to apologise sincere? Legend would probably say no, but I can't be certain as I am not familiar with either of these players. The answer of the second question relies on the truth of the first question as premise, from a Western cultural standpoint I think the premise of the first question remains debatable as many of us do not see Larva's actions as an act of humiliation. I also don't think he intended to humiliate Legend, he probably just wanted to have some fun and make it to the headlines, but every Chinese player I've spoken to seemed to see Larva's actions as inappropriate, even some Koreans saw it as such, so I think we probably need to stop seeing this incident from a purely Western perspective and condemn Legend for being a salty crybaby and start to consider the cultural differences in East Asia. I think I can add some comment here. Of course using the foot like that is really really a bad activity in Eastern culture and I'm sure Larva also know that. The other point is he should not bring the thing out of the game. As LX said, he (and most of the SC fans and players can agree) can accept the nuke bomb, building a cc inside his base or even use pylon/overlord to write "rookie", "chobo", "cai" or any other legal word on the map. That's fine because it is inside the game, he is a better player, I can't defeat him and I have nothing to say. But the activity outside the game definitely crossed the line. Again in other sports apparently you can not do such thing to your opponent player then why it should be allowed in Zotac cup? You are playing a "game" or "esports" doesn't mean you can wreak like that, especially in a public event. | ||
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fishyuri
1 Post
User was banned for this post. | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On December 07 2017 00:41 kissayumi wrote: I think I can add some comment here. Of course using the foot like that is really really a bad activity in Eastern culture and I'm sure Larva also know that. The other point is he should not bring the thing out of the game. As LX said, he (and most of the SC fans and players can agree) can accept the nuke bomb, building a cc inside his base or even use pylon/overlord to write "rookie", "chobo", "cai" or any other legal word on the map. That's fine because it is inside the game, he is a better player, I can't defeat him and I have nothing to say. But the activity outside the game definitely crossed the line. Again in other sports apparently you can not do such thing to your opponent player then why it should be allowed in Zotac cup? You are playing a "game" or "esports" doesn't mean you can wreak like that, especially in a public event. I don't get it. So are you against all the ceremonies FBH did because it was disrespectful and outside the game? Or that one ceremony where a player threw a bowl of rice at FBH's booth after a game, declaring that beating him was as easy as eating rice? | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1426 Posts
On December 07 2017 00:07 kissayumi wrote: Lol I don't know why you always want to emphasis this thing to a national level while actually it is not. Tell me in what other sport you can do such bad activity without a punishment and long suspend. So you think show that BM to your opponent is normal? Show match? Did you see players in Barcelona do that kind of thing during their friendly match? Did you see the same thing happen when any NBA team is in their global show match? Did you see the same thing happen when Chinese Pingpong player in a large lead? No you didn't and you will not because it is a normal rule that you SHOULD respect your opponent. You always mention "Chinese" is over reacting, is it true? I feel you are more excited because it is you not other people take legend as a representative of "Chinese" and you are imaging Larva is fooling "CHINESE player" and makes you excited. This is no good and not funny. And do not pretend to know China well and trying to sell your bias view. Again, stop making this thing "national". You dont see the irony in your own words, do you? Let me preface this that while I thought what Larva did was hilarious, it was 100% out of line if the other party was hurt by it. I felt bit uncomfortable during the celebrations and BM and thought it was bit of bad taste, and legend has 100% right to be livid by the behavior if he wasn't aware of this happening beforehand. But I am not talking about Legend, I am talking about this whole phenomenon of race wars spilling over in multiple forums of multiple languages including TeamLiquid with sole purpose of defending a country's honor over a single hurt player. Seems like nationalism more than others factors to me. I lived in Korea and they did same thing. I see my asian friends from China/Korea/Japan do the same thing. I grew up being taught that this sort of behavior was right and along lines of "you represent your country's reputation when you go overseas" sort of mentality. Has to be that. Its not political really, its just inherent part of our culture that tends to sway that way. This is of foreign concept to most westerners who may not understand this. As a person who spent childhood in Korea before moving to US, I could see that this kind of concept may be foreign to those of non-asian origin. I am not trying to attack China. I am trying to explain to unfamiliar people why this issue became so big. Hell, if you look at larva's forum pages, its filled with koreans and Chinese telling each other to kill themselves and being in middle of huge flame race war. Why did this start? Its because of our culture really. Larva, who represented Korea, dissed on Chinese player, who represented China, and that pissed off many people on internet, as fellow countryman got insulted, and by proxy, the nation was shamed. Would this sort of reaction have happened if it was a non-asian player? I highly doubt it. Did this happen when Larva taunted Sea and when he BM'd against other Koreans while he was streaming? Nope. Would it have had happened if it was Chinese player doing it to Korean? Hell yea. Japanese player doing it to Korean/Chinese? Yup. A non asian-player doing it to Chinese/Korean/Japanese? Oh yes. This mentality of "insult a fellow countrymen, and you insult our entire nation" mentality isn't a widespread idea in the west. Even in more nationalistic western countries, its not as extreme as it is in our nations. Because of this, this concept may not make sense to a lot of westerners, but that video does perfectly well to explain that sort of mentality. Ask yourself this: Would non-asians have this sort of huge reaction if a player from their own nationality got humiliated? | ||
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Jealous
10152 Posts
On December 06 2017 18:29 FoR_BlueS wrote: Coupled with Legend's refusal of Larva's private apology, Larva has successfully painted himself as the honourable victim of a scandal, and portrayed Legend as a narrow-minded, egoistic loser who is too butthurt to act like a man. I make this deduction based on my experience as a fan of Eastern culture, so no, don't ask me which animes are good to watch otherwise you will spend the rest of your life infront of your computer...But you can start with Death Note. I'm fucking crying right now. JUST L O L On December 06 2017 18:41 FoR_BlueS wrote: To any and all Chinese posters on this thread, please do not escalate the discussion to nationalism and keep the discussion relevant to this incident. Unless you want to know who died in Death Note, if you haven't seen it yet that is... BRUH | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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