To my YouTube subscribers, fans of my stream, and foreigners, I thank you for cheering for me.
All I meant to do is to give my effort to liven up the tournement and starcraft scene, and I had come to a conclusion that there would need to be a showmanship performance to pull interest.
If I look at just the results, when I pull AfreecaTV's data, It was a success and I was able to get large amount of viewers that belied the fact that it was 3-5am in the morning
Finally, to Zotac Korea and America
You worked so hard to prepare and help me around but I am sorry that I was not able to leave a good impression to the very end.
Thank you.
And I dont know if the players would see this, but there wasn't really anywhere to put this so I leave this long messege here.
Even though it has been just a few days with this competition, I was able to make friends through just StarCraft alone.
First,
Dragon. I promised to play a match with you, but I wasn't able to due to time constraint. Sorry about that. Please shoot me an email! I will play you online!
To my student, Hawk
You are same age as me, play same race as me, and have same beard as me. It was as if I was seeing American version of me! Thank you for showing so much passion towards StarCraft and let us meet next time, upgraded!
Kawaiirice, your mechanical ability was great, and if you play a bit more, you will be able to be top class player very soon!
Draco, you are very handsome, and a real gentleman with mannerisms. I thank you for that and happy birthday!
Michael! I will always remember going to PC cafe together during the night in Koreatown together! Congratulations on winning!
Ultra! Show them the power of Chilean player!
Jaeyun! Thank you for taking picture with me! Will call you!
Everyone, thank you for making awesome, amazing memories with me.
I hope that there will be time again in future where we will all meet again. Take care!
He shouldnt appologize. If i was in lx shoes i wouldnt even be embaressed. I would be impressed beyond reason and honored to be slain by larvas toes. Larva did what he does best; put on a good show. Larva your my new favorite player.
Larva fighting. Just calm down everyone. After all it was the tournaments job to have a professional tourney if they wanted to. But the whole setting was just a huge invitation for some stupid trolling by Larva. So what happened in the end? A great player put on some fun fights even though he handicapped himself. Imagine the 3-0 roflstomp Larva would've done otherwise.
why apologize ? we all want showing not this faceless koreans ^^ he makes entertainment its a showmatch it should be a shitton of fun and bad manners and shittalk thats what its for
he did exactly what he had to do to get maximum viewers maximum talk...
On December 05 2017 23:14 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: Imagine the 3-0 roflstomp Larva would've done otherwise.
man I can't even IMAGINE that. Don't know if I would've been able to continue with my life. The world would've probably ended right there and then. I'm so glad Larva acted like a clown and saved the day.
On December 05 2017 23:14 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: Imagine the 3-0 roflstomp Larva would've done otherwise.
man I can't even IMAGINE that. Don't know if I would've been able to continue with my life. The world would've probably ended right there and then. I'm so glad Larva acted like a clown and saved the day.
If that thought bothers you that much that you're considering not continuing your life, maybe you shouldn't be emotionally involving yourself in this situation? Seems very unhealthy imo.
On December 06 2017 00:06 Eywa- wrote: Personally, I think this is a terrible statement by Larva... An empty apology would have been good here.
A known Korean said some nice things about foreigners, I think it's enough
He didn't say anything about the one person he offended Since the foreigners he mentioned aren't the ones with the problem, it's kind of irrelevant that he mentioned them. (don't get me wrong, it's cool in a standalone context, but in this context it's like, well... You responded to everyone except for the dude you embarrassed)
The reason he didn't respond to Lx in this post is because he called Lx out elsewhere for not accepting his apology in person and then making a whiny post after he left which implied that Larva didn't try to apologize. We in the business call this a "dick move."
On December 06 2017 00:15 sweffymo wrote: The reason he didn't respond to Lx in this post is because he called Lx out elsewhere for not accepting his apology in person and then making a whiny post after he left which implied that Larva didn't try to apologize. We in the business call this a "dick move."
I totally agree, notice that in my post I said he should at least give an empty apology.
On December 06 2017 00:06 Eywa- wrote: Personally, I think this is a terrible statement by Larva... An empty apology would have been good here.
A known Korean said some nice things about foreigners, I think it's enough
He didn't say anything about the one person he offended Since the foreigners he mentioned aren't the ones with the problem, it's kind of irrelevant that he mentioned them. (don't get me wrong, it's cool in a standalone context, but in this context it's like, well... You responded to everyone except for the dude you embarrassed)
He tried to apologize to Lx, but he didn't accept it, on top of that Lx insulted him. why try it again?
On December 06 2017 00:15 sweffymo wrote: The reason he didn't respond to Lx in this post is because he called Lx out elsewhere for not accepting his apology in person and then making a whiny post after he left which implied that Larva didn't try to apologize. We in the business call this a "dick move."
Any source on the order of offering the apology, refusing it etc.? The original post by Legend had no mention of any apology and I think it's important for the discussion
On December 06 2017 00:06 Eywa- wrote: Personally, I think this is a terrible statement by Larva... An empty apology would have been good here.
A known Korean said some nice things about foreigners, I think it's enough
He didn't say anything about the one person he offended Since the foreigners he mentioned aren't the ones with the problem, it's kind of irrelevant that he mentioned them. (don't get me wrong, it's cool in a standalone context, but in this context it's like, well... You responded to everyone except for the dude you embarrassed)
He tried to apologize to Lx, but he didn't accept it, on top of that Lx insulted him. why try it again?
Wow, I think Larva being a memer of that caliber would take insults like a man and not like a crybaby like many call Legend
On December 06 2017 00:15 sweffymo wrote: The reason he didn't respond to Lx in this post is because he called Lx out elsewhere for not accepting his apology in person and then making a whiny post after he left which implied that Larva didn't try to apologize. We in the business call this a "dick move."
Any source on the order of offering the apology, refusing it etc.? The original post by Legend had no mention of any apology and I think it's important for the discussion
On December 06 2017 00:06 Eywa- wrote: Personally, I think this is a terrible statement by Larva... An empty apology would have been good here.
A known Korean said some nice things about foreigners, I think it's enough
He didn't say anything about the one person he offended Since the foreigners he mentioned aren't the ones with the problem, it's kind of irrelevant that he mentioned them. (don't get me wrong, it's cool in a standalone context, but in this context it's like, well... You responded to everyone except for the dude you embarrassed)
He tried to apologize to Lx, but he didn't accept it, on top of that Lx insulted him. why try it again?
Wow, I think Larva being a memer of that caliber would take insults like a man and not like a crybaby like many call Legend
He is like opposite of crybaby. He tried to apologize, lx refused, then F him. Is he supposed to beg him to accept his apology? You are beyond ridiculous. I am happy larva enjoyed his time with foreigners. Also about half of foreigners who participated in the event posted on TL saying how great person Larva actually is. Larva handles this situation like a man, not crybaby lx who made Chinese people to storm the internet with massive spam.
On December 06 2017 00:15 sweffymo wrote: The reason he didn't respond to Lx in this post is because he called Lx out elsewhere for not accepting his apology in person and then making a whiny post after he left which implied that Larva didn't try to apologize. We in the business call this a "dick move."
Any source on the order of offering the apology, refusing it etc.? The original post by Legend had no mention of any apology and I think it's important for the discussion
On December 06 2017 00:06 Eywa- wrote: Personally, I think this is a terrible statement by Larva... An empty apology would have been good here.
A known Korean said some nice things about foreigners, I think it's enough
He didn't say anything about the one person he offended Since the foreigners he mentioned aren't the ones with the problem, it's kind of irrelevant that he mentioned them. (don't get me wrong, it's cool in a standalone context, but in this context it's like, well... You responded to everyone except for the dude you embarrassed)
He tried to apologize to Lx, but he didn't accept it, on top of that Lx insulted him. why try it again?
Wow, I think Larva being a memer of that caliber would take insults like a man and not like a crybaby like many call Legend
Larva went in person to apologize but the other dude instead went to his bed crying and complaining on Webo...
On December 06 2017 00:28 aQuaSC wrote: Wow, I think Larva being a memer of that caliber would take insults like a man and not like a crybaby like many call Legend
Do you actually even know what being a "crybaby" insinuates? Maybe you should look up what words mean before using them.
Hint: It has nothing to do with how Larva represented himself or his statements.
On December 06 2017 00:15 sweffymo wrote: The reason he didn't respond to Lx in this post is because he called Lx out elsewhere for not accepting his apology in person and then making a whiny post after he left which implied that Larva didn't try to apologize. We in the business call this a "dick move."
Any source on the order of offering the apology, refusing it etc.? The original post by Legend had no mention of any apology and I think it's important for the discussion
On December 06 2017 00:27 duke91 wrote:
On December 06 2017 00:11 Eywa- wrote:
On December 06 2017 00:07 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 06 2017 00:06 Eywa- wrote: Personally, I think this is a terrible statement by Larva... An empty apology would have been good here.
A known Korean said some nice things about foreigners, I think it's enough
He didn't say anything about the one person he offended Since the foreigners he mentioned aren't the ones with the problem, it's kind of irrelevant that he mentioned them. (don't get me wrong, it's cool in a standalone context, but in this context it's like, well... You responded to everyone except for the dude you embarrassed)
He tried to apologize to Lx, but he didn't accept it, on top of that Lx insulted him. why try it again?
Wow, I think Larva being a memer of that caliber would take insults like a man and not like a crybaby like many call Legend
Larva went in person to apologize but the other dude instead went to his bed crying and complaining on Webo...
how did he apologize in person if neither speak any English? He said "sori sori sori sori"? No shit it wasn't accepted.
On December 06 2017 00:15 sweffymo wrote: The reason he didn't respond to Lx in this post is because he called Lx out elsewhere for not accepting his apology in person and then making a whiny post after he left which implied that Larva didn't try to apologize. We in the business call this a "dick move."
Any source on the order of offering the apology, refusing it etc.? The original post by Legend had no mention of any apology and I think it's important for the discussion
On December 06 2017 00:27 duke91 wrote:
On December 06 2017 00:11 Eywa- wrote:
On December 06 2017 00:07 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 06 2017 00:06 Eywa- wrote: Personally, I think this is a terrible statement by Larva... An empty apology would have been good here.
A known Korean said some nice things about foreigners, I think it's enough
He didn't say anything about the one person he offended Since the foreigners he mentioned aren't the ones with the problem, it's kind of irrelevant that he mentioned them. (don't get me wrong, it's cool in a standalone context, but in this context it's like, well... You responded to everyone except for the dude you embarrassed)
He tried to apologize to Lx, but he didn't accept it, on top of that Lx insulted him. why try it again?
Wow, I think Larva being a memer of that caliber would take insults like a man and not like a crybaby like many call Legend
Larva went in person to apologize but the other dude instead went to his bed crying and complaining on Webo...
how did he apologize in person if neither speak any English? He said "sori sori sori sori"? No shit it wasn't accepted.
Your trolling is next level. Congrats☺ because you are trolling, arent you?
I don't necessarily think he needs to apologize to Legend, but seeing as he wrote a line about pretty much everyone else it would've been nice. Apart from that it seems like he's handling the fallout in a mature way. I half expected him to escalate the situation further tbh.
On December 06 2017 00:15 sweffymo wrote: The reason he didn't respond to Lx in this post is because he called Lx out elsewhere for not accepting his apology in person and then making a whiny post after he left which implied that Larva didn't try to apologize. We in the business call this a "dick move."
Any source on the order of offering the apology, refusing it etc.? The original post by Legend had no mention of any apology and I think it's important for the discussion
On December 06 2017 00:27 duke91 wrote:
On December 06 2017 00:11 Eywa- wrote:
On December 06 2017 00:07 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 06 2017 00:06 Eywa- wrote: Personally, I think this is a terrible statement by Larva... An empty apology would have been good here.
A known Korean said some nice things about foreigners, I think it's enough
He didn't say anything about the one person he offended Since the foreigners he mentioned aren't the ones with the problem, it's kind of irrelevant that he mentioned them. (don't get me wrong, it's cool in a standalone context, but in this context it's like, well... You responded to everyone except for the dude you embarrassed)
He tried to apologize to Lx, but he didn't accept it, on top of that Lx insulted him. why try it again?
Wow, I think Larva being a memer of that caliber would take insults like a man and not like a crybaby like many call Legend
Larva went in person to apologize but the other dude instead went to his bed crying and complaining on Webo...
how did he apologize in person if neither speak any English? He said "sori sori sori sori"? No shit it wasn't accepted.
Your trolling is next level. Congrats☺ because you are trolling, arent you?
now try your best to come up with an actual answer to how Larva could possibly have apologized.
On December 06 2017 00:15 sweffymo wrote: The reason he didn't respond to Lx in this post is because he called Lx out elsewhere for not accepting his apology in person and then making a whiny post after he left which implied that Larva didn't try to apologize. We in the business call this a "dick move."
Any source on the order of offering the apology, refusing it etc.? The original post by Legend had no mention of any apology and I think it's important for the discussion
Check Legend's Weibo https://weibo.com/u/2183182844 "12月4日 13:01 来自 iPhone客户端" Time stamp of OP is December 04 13:01 GMT+8
So, the time window for Larva to find Legend and offer the apology is from 04:27 to 05:01 GMT IMHO. But at that time he's taking winner interview with casters, right? While Legend was told by friend in China what happened, then wrote the post on Weibo, right?
On December 06 2017 00:15 sweffymo wrote: The reason he didn't respond to Lx in this post is because he called Lx out elsewhere for not accepting his apology in person and then making a whiny post after he left which implied that Larva didn't try to apologize. We in the business call this a "dick move."
Any source on the order of offering the apology, refusing it etc.? The original post by Legend had no mention of any apology and I think it's important for the discussion
On December 06 2017 00:27 duke91 wrote:
On December 06 2017 00:11 Eywa- wrote:
On December 06 2017 00:07 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 06 2017 00:06 Eywa- wrote: Personally, I think this is a terrible statement by Larva... An empty apology would have been good here.
A known Korean said some nice things about foreigners, I think it's enough
He didn't say anything about the one person he offended Since the foreigners he mentioned aren't the ones with the problem, it's kind of irrelevant that he mentioned them. (don't get me wrong, it's cool in a standalone context, but in this context it's like, well... You responded to everyone except for the dude you embarrassed)
He tried to apologize to Lx, but he didn't accept it, on top of that Lx insulted him. why try it again?
Wow, I think Larva being a memer of that caliber would take insults like a man and not like a crybaby like many call Legend
Larva went in person to apologize but the other dude instead went to his bed crying and complaining on Webo...
how did he apologize in person if neither speak any English? He said "sori sori sori sori"? No shit it wasn't accepted.
Your trolling is next level. Congrats☺ because you are trolling, arent you?
now try your best to come up with an actual answer to how Larva could possibly have apologized.
I met Legend in 2008 during wcg and he was a pretty chill and fun guy. He also knew very basic English and we had some poker for fun (no money, just beers) with the other players and bw staff (mostly wgt back then). I cant imagine him not understanding a simple word like sorry. Obviously ths was almost 10 years ago and people change but I think there was something that hurt him, maybe a misunderstanding or something. Larva seems like a chill guy too. Chinese and Korean netizens are notoriously toxic and drama oriented so it is not impossible that the situation got out of hand due to external factors too. Anyways it s kinda sad.
You may don’t know how impudent and rude the Koreans were. Plenty of Japanese,Chinese and Taiwanese have bad impression of Koreans. It’s concept differences. I think this might be a reason why Chinese fans are so angry.
On December 06 2017 00:15 sweffymo wrote: The reason he didn't respond to Lx in this post is because he called Lx out elsewhere for not accepting his apology in person and then making a whiny post after he left which implied that Larva didn't try to apologize. We in the business call this a "dick move."
Any source on the order of offering the apology, refusing it etc.? The original post by Legend had no mention of any apology and I think it's important for the discussion
On December 06 2017 00:27 duke91 wrote:
On December 06 2017 00:11 Eywa- wrote:
On December 06 2017 00:07 aQuaSC wrote:
On December 06 2017 00:06 Eywa- wrote: Personally, I think this is a terrible statement by Larva... An empty apology would have been good here.
A known Korean said some nice things about foreigners, I think it's enough
He didn't say anything about the one person he offended Since the foreigners he mentioned aren't the ones with the problem, it's kind of irrelevant that he mentioned them. (don't get me wrong, it's cool in a standalone context, but in this context it's like, well... You responded to everyone except for the dude you embarrassed)
He tried to apologize to Lx, but he didn't accept it, on top of that Lx insulted him. why try it again?
Wow, I think Larva being a memer of that caliber would take insults like a man and not like a crybaby like many call Legend
Larva went in person to apologize but the other dude instead went to his bed crying and complaining on Webo...
Oh really? I hadnt heard he went to apologize in person
On December 06 2017 01:55 stevech1024 wrote: You may don’t know how impudent and rude the Koreans were. Plenty of Japanese,Chinese and Taiwanese have bad impression of Koreans. It’s concept differences. I think this might be a reason why Chinese fans are so angry.
The same thing can be said about Chinese, maybe even worse but people choose not to say that, because you don't generalize an entire nation of people like what you do here, typical angry china nationalist fanboy.
The total lack of self-awareness is astounding with you people. Hopefully, not all billion of chinese people aren't like that... right?
I'm not trying to crucify Larva, as this ultimately isn't that big a deal, but...
A showmatch is a competition. It's lighthearted, but people are spending time and money on it because they hope for some good BW performed with a competitive spirit. There is room for funny chatting between the players and there is room for unorthodox strategies, but a basic level of professional competition is expected, or else it's a waste of time.
Ask yourself: If you were Lx, would you fly to the tournament from China, knowing that in the end Larva would very likely defeat you? Sure. Would you fly to the tournament from China, knowing that Larva would defeat you with crossed hands or with his feet? I would not.
There's nothing wrong with a circus, but if I go to a BW event I'll be disappointed if it turns out that it's a circus instead.
Behaving with a professional, competitive spirit is a minimum requirement for participation in a showmatch or tournament. Larva may have gotten laughs (at Lx's expense), but he did not meet the minimum requirement that would have made the final match worthwhile.
Personally, in this particular setting, I think Larva brought some nice spice. I'm sorry for legend if he got hurt, but I don't think any of this drama is warrented, or wanted.
Good on Larva to not bend over backwards to apologize to Lx and show true respect to the other foreigners. Giving a hollow apology is not the mark of a man standing by his principles. Larva didn't break rules and from the sounds of things is the only one who handled the "drama" properly.
On December 06 2017 04:35 outscar wrote: Just ignore AquaSC, he's well known troll and BW hater. He got bored from SC2 section so he comes here to shit on everything he sees.
Larva is love, Larva is life!
Weren't you saying the same thing couple months ago? I just said what I think, not sure now why, won't make that mistake again
On December 06 2017 07:21 Jealous wrote: Good on Larva to not bend over backwards to apologize to Lx and show true respect to the other foreigners. Giving a hollow apology is not the mark of a man standing by his principles. Larva didn't break rules and from the sounds of things is the only one who handled the "drama" properly.
Larva fighting!
He tried to apologize in person since he felt doing it over phone may seem insincere but lx rejected it
On December 06 2017 07:21 Jealous wrote: Good on Larva to not bend over backwards to apologize to Lx and show true respect to the other foreigners. Giving a hollow apology is not the mark of a man standing by his principles. Larva didn't break rules and from the sounds of things is the only one who handled the "drama" properly.
Larva fighting!
He tried to apologize in person since he felt doing it over phone may seem insincere but lx rejected it
First claim the Zotac official allowed him to do so then claim lx rejected his apology. Waiting to hear the third story.
/.../ Ask yourself: If you were Lx, would you fly to the tournament from China, knowing that in the end Larva would very likely defeat you? Sure. Would you fly to the tournament from China, knowing that Larva would defeat you with crossed hands or with his feet? I would not. /.../
Yes to both questions.
I don't think this is a great metaphor though, for two reasons. First of all, I'm familiar with Larva and his antics (which Lx wasn't). If Larva were to beat me with conventional strategies, while acting all reserved and ultra-professional I'd be disappointed.
Secondly, Lx is a much better player than me, and he also has a long history in esports. I wouldn't expect Larva to play seriously versus me when I never even reached D+ on iCCup.
With that being said, the larger issue here seems to be that Larva and Lx had widely different ideas of what sort of event this was, how they were supposed to approach it, and what was expected of them. This situation wouldn't have gotten nearly as big if the communication would've worked better. Of course, the fact that there is a language barrier makes this difficult in practice. For this reason having clear rules of conduct is essential. I honestly think this entire debacle could've been avoided at the cost of a few sentences like:
"This is a laid back tournament, with the primary goal of being a fun and inclusive experience for everyone. Feel free to do crazy builds, but remember to always treat fellow players and staff members with respect. Things that are ok (but make sure everyone is in on it beforehand): _________. Things that are not ok: _________. What will happen if you do those things: ________."
The fact that Larva kept on going without anyone stopping him makes it seem like there either were only vague rules ("be nice") without any explicit definitions of unacceptable behaviour, or alternatively there were clear rules, but no one knew about them.
I'm not trying to deflect the blame over to the organizer though -- Larva alone is responsible for his words and actions. It's just sad to think that this could've been avoided...
(Sorry for the wall of text, I'm bored and can't sleep <.<)
On December 06 2017 07:21 Jealous wrote: Good on Larva to not bend over backwards to apologize to Lx and show true respect to the other foreigners. Giving a hollow apology is not the mark of a man standing by his principles. Larva didn't break rules and from the sounds of things is the only one who handled the "drama" properly.
Larva fighting!
He tried to apologize in person since he felt doing it over phone may seem insincere but lx rejected it
I know, hence the latter apology would be hollow as fuck. Larva didn't sink to that level.
On December 06 2017 13:52 jinjin5000 wrote: I'm not larva but I can relay the msg to translator he was with haha
Could you let Larva know the time that Legend sent the post on Weibo? https://weibo.com/u/2183182844 "12月4日 13:01 来自 iPhone客户端" Time stamp is December 04 13:01 GMT+8, = Dec 03 21:01 PST in LA.
And could you ask Larva the exact time that he went to find Legend and offered apology?
I read some posts claming Legend refused the apology first, then sent the post, which need to be clarified seriously IMHO.
On December 06 2017 13:52 jinjin5000 wrote: I'm not larva but I can relay the msg to translator he was with haha
Could you let Larva know the time that Legend sent the post on Weibo? https://weibo.com/u/2183182844 "12月4日 13:01 来自 iPhone客户端" Time stamp is December 04 13:01 GMT+8, = Dec 03 21:01 PST in LA.
And could you ask Larva the exact time that he went to find Legend and offered apology?
I read some posts claming Legend refused the apology first, then sent the post, which need to be clarified seriously IMHO.
Thanks a lot.
This is getting to be like murder she wrote level of drama, I hate all of this is going on and I feel sorry for Legend but really, we should just let this go I think...
Larva plays good StarCraft ,but out of game,Larva is a clown.He is extremely impolite to his opponent and this letter shows no apology to LX.You are the shame of Korean.
Idk exactly when he refused apology could be before or after but think you are getting bit too into this or just a murder mystery fan attempting to bring it into being an internet detective
Anyways, if you guys don't quite understand why Chinese are outraged, its the mindset of "Humiliate a countryman, spit on entire nation". This mindset is common in Asia, especially japan/korea/China, but china has sheer amount of number despite the whole firewall stuff
If small off comment that may be remotely negative on china on YouTube channel run by a white dude can spark outrage from thousands of Chinese, with tons of websites running article "white person talks shit on china", imagine what THIS did.
If you want to know more about it, I suggest you watch channel: ADVchina. Amazing YouTube channel who speaks without any qualms about China and living there. They cover this topic often. Give this video a watch.
On December 06 2017 16:12 jinjin5000 wrote: Idk exactly when he refused apology could be before or after but think you are getting bit too into this or just a murder mystery fan attempting to bring it into being an internet detective
Thanks for reply.
I just want to know the truth, I give my judgement based on details of truth, not rumor or imagination. I saw Larva used feet in game on twitch, so I wrote "No respect, Larva bad manner!". http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/527382-20000-zotac-cup-masters-scrm-na-sa?page=21 I insist on Larva should apologize, in this open letter every player mentioned but no Legend, not a word even an empty apology.
On getting approval: Larva also said that there may have been some miscommunication between one of Zotac staff and him since the translator wasn't there when he arrived at first.
My question: Who is the staff? What did Larva talk with him/her?
It said Larva insisted on he asked a ZOTAC staff in advance, but when incident happened, this staff said had no impresstion on that talk. Larva thought there's some miscommunication since the interpreter wasn't threre at that moment.
Larva is in the very top of starcraft, with both, his skills and his fanbase. Everyone should know already that Larva does stupid shit on camera, it is entertaining to some of his fans, and the rest should know that there is no need to take it personally, he just does it for his fans. Larva's presence is good for Starcraft community. I didn't see Larva vs Lx, but I saw the hillarious gif of him playing with his toes. Lx should not take it personally. If he felt offended, he should have impressed it in more manner rather than call Larva mentally ill.
To be honest, I am very impressed by Larva's social wisdom, not only is he a good BW player, he surely knows how to entertain his audience, and (in a neutral sense) how to manipulate information and public opinion to favour him. This post is not meant to undermine Larva's position, but is meant to analyse the entire incident and to address the elephant in the room that everyone seems to have forgotten: if a public humiliation (even if it was not meant to be a humiliation) deserves an apology, then it should deserve a public apology instead of a private one, otherwise it would strike the victim as insincere.
I tried asking a few Chinese players to dig for some info regarding what exactly happened. According to what they described, Legend said he "sat there, not knowing what to do for half an hour" after the match (let's assume the translations are correct, as of now I cannot confirm this), this appears to indicate that Larva did not apologise right after the match, probably not realising how his actions affected Legend, and that Legend likely participated in the tournament with a very serious mindset, otherwise he would just leave with a smile. Larva likely realised the severity of the issue later and decided to apologise to Legend, only to be met with refusal. From a moral perspective, a public humiliation deserves a public apology, I can hardly imagine how a private apology after a public humiliation could work out for Legend (assuming that he is TRULY offended, it appears that this is the case in Chinese culture), therefore Legend's reason for refusing Larva's private apology does not seem to be entirely unjustified. Legend probably thought that Larva's offer wasn't sincere enough, thus rejected it.
I think if it were a Westerner all of this wouldn't have happened due to different cultural customs and norms, but unfortunately this wasn't the case. Larva, likely accidentally or coincidentally, picked the wrong candidate for his shows. What's more unfortunate is that the Western audience has been easily manipulated by Larva's exploitation of the cultural gap between Western and Eastern cultures. Larva probably knew that in Western culture his behaviours would be less of a deal, especially in a show match, therefore Westerners would likely fail to realise how offensive his actions were in the eyes of Legend. Coupled with Legend's refusal of Larva's private apology, Larva has successfully painted himself as the honourable victim of a scandal, and portrayed Legend as a narrow-minded, egoistic loser who is too butthurt to act like a man. I make this deduction based on my experience as a fan of Eastern culture, so no, don't ask me which animes are good to watch otherwise you will spend the rest of your life infront of your computer...But you can start with Death Note.
Once again, I have to say I am really amazed by Larva's emotional intelligence and showmanship, I have certainly learned a lot from observing this incident. However until I can dig up more information from Legend's side, conclusions should not be given regarding this incident, but since I do not know Legend nor do I know anyone who does know him personally I guess we will never have an answer.
May the incident be settled by mature and responsible responses from both sides...
On December 06 2017 18:01 SpringWind wrote: Football,skating and now e-sports,south korea play a shameful role anywhere XD.
To any and all Chinese posters on this thread, please do not escalate the discussion to nationalism and keep the discussion relevant to this incident. Unless you want to know who died in Death Note, if you haven't seen it yet that is...
Ah yes, I was meant to address the letter as Larva seemed to have deliberately left out Legend for some reason. Thanks for the reminder, I will repost on the other thread.
On December 06 2017 18:29 FoR_BlueS wrote: To be honest, I am very impressed by Larva's social wisdom, not only is he a good BW player, he surely knows how to entertain his audience, 。。。 from both sides...
here is what I heard about the timestamp from lx and his friends and this forum:
local time 21:00 or more, game over,commentors and larva do interview. zotac twiter type larva champion
lx's friends tell lx about the foot game
in 30mins,lx sit still,no move ,and type the weibo
in next 2hour,china webs media made a lot of news about the humiliating thing
local time 1:00(second day),the staff(translator?) tell lx larva's word:"if you want an apology,I can apology to you in privite ". lx deny.
then after 3hours, zotac china say ban larva. zotac twiter delete larva champion ?
after lots' of hours,zotac us say we no ban larva. and then larva open letter.
On December 06 2017 18:01 SpringWind wrote: Football,skating and now e-sports,south korea play a shameful role anywhere XD.
To any and all Chinese posters on this thread, please do not escalate the discussion to nationalism and keep the discussion relevant to this incident. Unless you want to know who died in Death Note, if you haven't seen it yet that is...
Take a look at #57 and then think again who is keeping nationalism.
On December 06 2017 16:43 jinjin5000 wrote: Anyways, if you guys don't quite understand why Chinese are outraged, its the mindset of "Humiliate a countryman, spit on entire nation". This mindset is common in Asia, especially japan/korea/China, but china has sheer amount of number despite the whole firewall stuff
If small off comment that may be remotely negative on china on YouTube channel run by a white dude can spark outrage from thousands of Chinese, with tons of websites running article "white person talks shit on china", imagine what THIS did.
If you want to know more about it, I suggest you watch channel: ADVchina. Amazing YouTube channel who speaks without any qualms about China and living there. They cover this topic often. Give this video a watch.
Lol I don't know why you always want to emphasis this thing to a national level while actually it is not. Tell me in what other sport you can do such bad activity without a punishment and long suspend. So you think show that BM to your opponent is normal? Show match? Did you see players in Barcelona do that kind of thing during their friendly match? Did you see the same thing happen when any NBA team is in their global show match? Did you see the same thing happen when Chinese Pingpong player in a large lead? No you didn't and you will not because it is a normal rule that you SHOULD respect your opponent. You always mention "Chinese" is over reacting, is it true? I feel you are more excited because it is you not other people take legend as a representative of "Chinese" and you are imaging Larva is fooling "CHINESE player" and makes you excited. This is no good and not funny. And do not pretend to know China well and trying to sell your bias view. Again, stop making this thing "national".
On December 06 2017 18:29 FoR_BlueS wrote: To be honest, I am very impressed by Larva's social wisdom, not only is he a good BW player, he surely knows how to entertain his audience, 。。。 from both sides...
here is what I heard about the timestamp from lx and his friends and this forum:
local time 21:00 or more, game over,commentors and larva do interview. zotac twiter type larva champion
lx's friends tell lx about the foot game
in 30mins,lx sit still,no move ,and type the weibo
in next 2hour,china webs media made a lot of news about the humiliating thing
local time 1:00(second day),the staff(translator?) tell lx larva's word:"if you want an apology,I can apology to you in privite ". lx deny.
then after 3hours, zotac china say ban larva. zotac twiter delete larva champion ?
after lots' of hours,zotac us say we no ban larva. and then larva open letter.
If that is the case, then Larva probably didn't realise the severity of the issue to Legend and decided later to mitigate the negative consequences from his behaviour. He should've offered a public apology instead as the humiliation was public, this was probably why Legend refused as he probably suspected Larva's intention wasn't sincere. This public statement by Larva intentionally omitted Legend, probably as a form of protest or provocation, after all, if I correctly understood the nationalistic ideology of East Asian cultures, Larva is probably seen as a national hero in Korea now that he publicly crushed and humiliated China's best player.
For all those not familiar with East Asian cultures, one's feet is usually regarded as a symbol of the lowest status, defeating a country's best player with one's feet is sort of like raping the princess of a country after the fall of the nation, thus I can sort of understand why many Chinese players are so enraged while many Korean players are proud and strongly supportive of Larva's behaviour and response. It now seems apparent that Legend ended up biting the bullet Larva shot at him by rejecting Larva's private apology, this however became a justification for Larva, his omittance of Legend in this public statement shows it all.
Now, two questions remain to be answered:
1) Following a public humiliation in front of an international audience, Legend likely rejected Larva's apology because he felt a private apology was insincere. Therefore, should a public humiliation demand a public apology, or is a private apology sufficient? (Given the cultural context of East Asian countries it appears quite obviouly that Larva's action was indeed an act of humiliation, even though he didn't mean it)
2) Is Larva's intention to apologise sincere? Legend would probably say no, but I can't be certain as I am not familiar with either of these players.
The answer of the second question relies on the truth of the first question as premise, from a Western cultural standpoint I think the premise of the first question remains debatable as many of us do not see Larva's actions as an act of humiliation. I also don't think he intended to humiliate Legend, he probably just wanted to have some fun and make it to the headlines, but every Chinese player I've spoken to seemed to see Larva's actions as inappropriate, even some Koreans saw it as such, so I think we probably need to stop seeing this incident from a purely Western perspective and condemn Legend for being a salty crybaby and start to consider the cultural differences in East Asia.
On December 06 2017 18:01 SpringWind wrote: Football,skating and now e-sports,south korea play a shameful role anywhere XD.
To any and all Chinese posters on this thread, please do not escalate the discussion to nationalism and keep the discussion relevant to this incident. Unless you want to know who died in Death Note, if you haven't seen it yet that is...
Take a look at #57 and then think again who is keeping nationalism.
Well my friend, two wrongs doesn't make a right, just like how revenge would only cause reason for more revenge. What I was trying to say is that there are better ways to make a point than a purely nationalistic rant, I've known quite a few Koreans and many of them are very decent people, just like the Chinese friends that I have.
On December 06 2017 18:01 SpringWind wrote: Football,skating and now e-sports,south korea play a shameful role anywhere XD.
To any and all Chinese posters on this thread, please do not escalate the discussion to nationalism and keep the discussion relevant to this incident. Unless you want to know who died in Death Note, if you haven't seen it yet that is...
Take a look at #57 and then think again who is keeping nationalism.
Well my friend, two wrongs doesn't make a right, just like how revenge would only cause reason for more revenge. What I was trying to say is that there are better ways to make a point than a purely nationalistic rant, I've known quite a few Koreans and many of them are very decent people, just like the Chinese friends that I have.
I also have many Korean friends. I've just read your post above and I would say mostly I agree with your view. I want to say again I'm not pleased with the bad activity from player "Larva" himself. No matter who is the opponent and where he is from this is not a proper act in a public event. But when someone want to sell a bias view that "it is because Chinese are easily lighted" I must say I disagree with him.
Larva is Larva, he is who he is, and he makes BW more interesting to say the least. I don't follow SC2 but I heard tastosis say not once nor twice how they wish SC2 would have some personalities like him.
On December 06 2017 18:01 SpringWind wrote: Football,skating and now e-sports,south korea play a shameful role anywhere XD.
To any and all Chinese posters on this thread, please do not escalate the discussion to nationalism and keep the discussion relevant to this incident. Unless you want to know who died in Death Note, if you haven't seen it yet that is...
Take a look at #57 and then think again who is keeping nationalism.
Well my friend, two wrongs doesn't make a right, just like how revenge would only cause reason for more revenge. What I was trying to say is that there are better ways to make a point than a purely nationalistic rant, I've known quite a few Koreans and many of them are very decent people, just like the Chinese friends that I have.
I also have many Korean friends. I've just read your post above and I would say mostly I agree with your view. I want to say again I'm not pleased with the bad activity from player "Larva" himself. No matter who is the opponent and where he is from this is not a proper act in a public event. But when someone want to sell a bias view that "it is because Chinese are easily lighted" I must say I disagree with him.
Fair enough, I understand where you're coming from. I know Chinese people have very high regards for the quality of respect, so I understand the frustration that many Chinese players have.
On December 06 2017 18:29 FoR_BlueS wrote: To be honest, I am very impressed by Larva's social wisdom, not only is he a good BW player, he surely knows how to entertain his audience, 。。。 from both sides...
here is what I heard about the timestamp from lx and his friends and this forum:
local time 21:00 or more, game over,commentors and larva do interview. zotac twiter type larva champion
lx's friends tell lx about the foot game
in 30mins,lx sit still,no move ,and type the weibo
in next 2hour,china webs media made a lot of news about the humiliating thing
local time 1:00(second day),the staff(translator?) tell lx larva's word:"if you want an apology,I can apology to you in privite ". lx deny.
then after 3hours, zotac china say ban larva. zotac twiter delete larva champion ?
after lots' of hours,zotac us say we no ban larva. and then larva open letter.
If that is the case, then Larva probably didn't realise the severity of the issue to Legend and decided later to mitigate the negative consequences from his behaviour. He should've offered a public apology instead as the humiliation was public, this was probably why Legend refused as he probably suspected Larva's intention wasn't sincere. This public statement by Larva intentionally omitted Legend, probably as a form of protest or provocation, after all, if I correctly understood the nationalistic ideology of East Asian cultures, Larva is probably seen as a national hero in Korea now that he publicly crushed and humiliated China's best player.
For all those not familiar with East Asian cultures, one's feet is usually regarded as a symbol of the lowest status, defeating a country's best player with one's feet is sort of like raping the princess of a country after the fall of the nation, thus I can sort of understand why many Chinese players are so enraged while many Korean players are proud and strongly supportive of Larva's behaviour and response. It now seems apparent that Legend ended up biting the bullet Larva shot at him by rejecting Larva's private apology, this however became a justification for Larva, his omittance of Legend in this public statement shows it all.
Now, two questions remain to be answered:
1) Following a public humiliation in front of an international audience, Legend likely rejected Larva's apology because he felt a private apology was insincere. Therefore, should a public humiliation demand a public apology, or is a private apology sufficient? (Given the cultural context of East Asian countries it appears quite obviouly that Larva's action was indeed an act of humiliation, even though he didn't mean it)
2) Is Larva's intention to apologise sincere? Legend would probably say no, but I can't be certain as I am not familiar with either of these players.
The answer of the second question relies on the truth of the first question as premise, from a Western cultural standpoint I think the premise of the first question remains debatable as many of us do not see Larva's actions as an act of humiliation. I also don't think he intended to humiliate Legend, he probably just wanted to have some fun and make it to the headlines, but every Chinese player I've spoken to seemed to see Larva's actions as inappropriate, even some Koreans saw it as such, so I think we probably need to stop seeing this incident from a purely Western perspective and condemn Legend for being a salty crybaby and start to consider the cultural differences in East Asia.
I think I can add some comment here. Of course using the foot like that is really really a bad activity in Eastern culture and I'm sure Larva also know that. The other point is he should not bring the thing out of the game.
As LX said, he (and most of the SC fans and players can agree) can accept the nuke bomb, building a cc inside his base or even use pylon/overlord to write "rookie", "chobo", "cai" or any other legal word on the map. That's fine because it is inside the game, he is a better player, I can't defeat him and I have nothing to say. But the activity outside the game definitely crossed the line. Again in other sports apparently you can not do such thing to your opponent player then why it should be allowed in Zotac cup? You are playing a "game" or "esports" doesn't mean you can wreak like that, especially in a public event.
On December 06 2017 18:29 FoR_BlueS wrote: To be honest, I am very impressed by Larva's social wisdom, not only is he a good BW player, he surely knows how to entertain his audience, 。。。 from both sides...
here is what I heard about the timestamp from lx and his friends and this forum:
local time 21:00 or more, game over,commentors and larva do interview. zotac twiter type larva champion
lx's friends tell lx about the foot game
in 30mins,lx sit still,no move ,and type the weibo
in next 2hour,china webs media made a lot of news about the humiliating thing
local time 1:00(second day),the staff(translator?) tell lx larva's word:"if you want an apology,I can apology to you in privite ". lx deny.
then after 3hours, zotac china say ban larva. zotac twiter delete larva champion ?
after lots' of hours,zotac us say we no ban larva. and then larva open letter.
If that is the case, then Larva probably didn't realise the severity of the issue to Legend and decided later to mitigate the negative consequences from his behaviour. He should've offered a public apology instead as the humiliation was public, this was probably why Legend refused as he probably suspected Larva's intention wasn't sincere. This public statement by Larva intentionally omitted Legend, probably as a form of protest or provocation, after all, if I correctly understood the nationalistic ideology of East Asian cultures, Larva is probably seen as a national hero in Korea now that he publicly crushed and humiliated China's best player.
For all those not familiar with East Asian cultures, one's feet is usually regarded as a symbol of the lowest status, defeating a country's best player with one's feet is sort of like raping the princess of a country after the fall of the nation, thus I can sort of understand why many Chinese players are so enraged while many Korean players are proud and strongly supportive of Larva's behaviour and response. It now seems apparent that Legend ended up biting the bullet Larva shot at him by rejecting Larva's private apology, this however became a justification for Larva, his omittance of Legend in this public statement shows it all.
Now, two questions remain to be answered:
1) Following a public humiliation in front of an international audience, Legend likely rejected Larva's apology because he felt a private apology was insincere. Therefore, should a public humiliation demand a public apology, or is a private apology sufficient? (Given the cultural context of East Asian countries it appears quite obviouly that Larva's action was indeed an act of humiliation, even though he didn't mean it)
2) Is Larva's intention to apologise sincere? Legend would probably say no, but I can't be certain as I am not familiar with either of these players.
The answer of the second question relies on the truth of the first question as premise, from a Western cultural standpoint I think the premise of the first question remains debatable as many of us do not see Larva's actions as an act of humiliation. I also don't think he intended to humiliate Legend, he probably just wanted to have some fun and make it to the headlines, but every Chinese player I've spoken to seemed to see Larva's actions as inappropriate, even some Koreans saw it as such, so I think we probably need to stop seeing this incident from a purely Western perspective and condemn Legend for being a salty crybaby and start to consider the cultural differences in East Asia.
I think I can add some comment here. Of course using the foot like that is really really a bad activity in Eastern culture and I'm sure Larva also know that. The other point is he should not bring the thing out of the game.
As LX said, he (and most of the SC fans and players can agree) can accept the nuke bomb, building a cc inside his base or even use pylon/overlord to write "rookie", "chobo", "cai" or any other legal word on the map. That's fine because it is inside the game, he is a better player, I can't defeat him and I have nothing to say. But the activity outside the game definitely crossed the line. Again in other sports apparently you can not do such thing to your opponent player then why it should be allowed in Zotac cup? You are playing a "game" or "esports" doesn't mean you can wreak like that, especially in a public event.
I don't get it. So are you against all the ceremonies FBH did because it was disrespectful and outside the game? Or that one ceremony where a player threw a bowl of rice at FBH's booth after a game, declaring that beating him was as easy as eating rice?
On December 06 2017 16:43 jinjin5000 wrote: Anyways, if you guys don't quite understand why Chinese are outraged, its the mindset of "Humiliate a countryman, spit on entire nation". This mindset is common in Asia, especially japan/korea/China, but china has sheer amount of number despite the whole firewall stuff
If small off comment that may be remotely negative on china on YouTube channel run by a white dude can spark outrage from thousands of Chinese, with tons of websites running article "white person talks shit on china", imagine what THIS did.
If you want to know more about it, I suggest you watch channel: ADVchina. Amazing YouTube channel who speaks without any qualms about China and living there. They cover this topic often. Give this video a watch.
Lol I don't know why you always want to emphasis this thing to a national level while actually it is not. Tell me in what other sport you can do such bad activity without a punishment and long suspend. So you think show that BM to your opponent is normal? Show match? Did you see players in Barcelona do that kind of thing during their friendly match? Did you see the same thing happen when any NBA team is in their global show match? Did you see the same thing happen when Chinese Pingpong player in a large lead? No you didn't and you will not because it is a normal rule that you SHOULD respect your opponent. You always mention "Chinese" is over reacting, is it true? I feel you are more excited because it is you not other people take legend as a representative of "Chinese" and you are imaging Larva is fooling "CHINESE player" and makes you excited. This is no good and not funny. And do not pretend to know China well and trying to sell your bias view. Again, stop making this thing "national".
You dont see the irony in your own words, do you?
Let me preface this that while I thought what Larva did was hilarious, it was 100% out of line if the other party was hurt by it. I felt bit uncomfortable during the celebrations and BM and thought it was bit of bad taste, and legend has 100% right to be livid by the behavior if he wasn't aware of this happening beforehand. But I am not talking about Legend, I am talking about this whole phenomenon of race wars spilling over in multiple forums of multiple languages including TeamLiquid with sole purpose of defending a country's honor over a single hurt player.
Seems like nationalism more than others factors to me. I lived in Korea and they did same thing. I see my asian friends from China/Korea/Japan do the same thing. I grew up being taught that this sort of behavior was right and along lines of "you represent your country's reputation when you go overseas" sort of mentality. Has to be that.
Its not political really, its just inherent part of our culture that tends to sway that way. This is of foreign concept to most westerners who may not understand this. As a person who spent childhood in Korea before moving to US, I could see that this kind of concept may be foreign to those of non-asian origin.
I am not trying to attack China. I am trying to explain to unfamiliar people why this issue became so big. Hell, if you look at larva's forum pages, its filled with koreans and Chinese telling each other to kill themselves and being in middle of huge flame race war. Why did this start? Its because of our culture really. Larva, who represented Korea, dissed on Chinese player, who represented China, and that pissed off many people on internet, as fellow countryman got insulted, and by proxy, the nation was shamed.
Would this sort of reaction have happened if it was a non-asian player? I highly doubt it. Did this happen when Larva taunted Sea and when he BM'd against other Koreans while he was streaming? Nope. Would it have had happened if it was Chinese player doing it to Korean? Hell yea. Japanese player doing it to Korean/Chinese? Yup. A non asian-player doing it to Chinese/Korean/Japanese? Oh yes.
This mentality of "insult a fellow countrymen, and you insult our entire nation" mentality isn't a widespread idea in the west. Even in more nationalistic western countries, its not as extreme as it is in our nations.
Because of this, this concept may not make sense to a lot of westerners, but that video does perfectly well to explain that sort of mentality.
Ask yourself this: Would non-asians have this sort of huge reaction if a player from their own nationality got humiliated?
On December 06 2017 18:29 FoR_BlueS wrote: Coupled with Legend's refusal of Larva's private apology, Larva has successfully painted himself as the honourable victim of a scandal, and portrayed Legend as a narrow-minded, egoistic loser who is too butthurt to act like a man. I make this deduction based on my experience as a fan of Eastern culture, so no, don't ask me which animes are good to watch otherwise you will spend the rest of your life infront of your computer...But you can start with Death Note.
On December 06 2017 18:01 SpringWind wrote: Football,skating and now e-sports,south korea play a shameful role anywhere XD.
To any and all Chinese posters on this thread, please do not escalate the discussion to nationalism and keep the discussion relevant to this incident. Unless you want to know who died in Death Note, if you haven't seen it yet that is...
this jingoistic nationalism is so annoying on both sides. both china and korea are great, the dispute REALLY shouldn't have some forced nationality angle
On December 06 2017 16:43 jinjin5000 wrote: Anyways, if you guys don't quite understand why Chinese are outraged, its the mindset of "Humiliate a countryman, spit on entire nation". This mindset is common in Asia, especially japan/korea/China, but china has sheer amount of number despite the whole firewall stuff
If small off comment that may be remotely negative on china on YouTube channel run by a white dude can spark outrage from thousands of Chinese, with tons of websites running article "white person talks shit on china", imagine what THIS did.
If you want to know more about it, I suggest you watch channel: ADVchina. Amazing YouTube channel who speaks without any qualms about China and living there. They cover this topic often. Give this video a watch.
Lol I don't know why you always want to emphasis this thing to a national level while actually it is not. Tell me in what other sport you can do such bad activity without a punishment and long suspend. So you think show that BM to your opponent is normal? Show match? Did you see players in Barcelona do that kind of thing during their friendly match? Did you see the same thing happen when any NBA team is in their global show match? Did you see the same thing happen when Chinese Pingpong player in a large lead? No you didn't and you will not because it is a normal rule that you SHOULD respect your opponent. You always mention "Chinese" is over reacting, is it true? I feel you are more excited because it is you not other people take legend as a representative of "Chinese" and you are imaging Larva is fooling "CHINESE player" and makes you excited. This is no good and not funny. And do not pretend to know China well and trying to sell your bias view. Again, stop making this thing "national".
You dont see the irony in your own words, do you?
Let me preface this that while I thought what Larva did was hilarious, it was 100% out of line if the other party was hurt by it. I felt bit uncomfortable during the celebrations and BM and thought it was bit of bad taste, and legend has 100% right to be livid by the behavior if he wasn't aware of this happening beforehand. But I am not talking about Legend, I am talking about this whole phenomenon of race wars spilling over in multiple forums of multiple languages including TeamLiquid with sole purpose of defending a country's honor over a single hurt player.
Seems like nationalism more than others factors to me. I lived in Korea and they did same thing. I see my asian friends from China/Korea/Japan do the same thing. I grew up being taught that this sort of behavior was right and along lines of "you represent your country's reputation when you go overseas" sort of mentality. Has to be that.
Its not political really, its just inherent part of our culture that tends to sway that way. This is of foreign concept to most westerners who may not understand this. As a person who spent childhood in Korea before moving to US, I could see that this kind of concept may be foreign to those of non-asian origin.
I am not trying to attack China. I am trying to explain to unfamiliar people why this issue became so big. Hell, if you look at larva's forum pages, its filled with koreans and Chinese telling each other to kill themselves and being in middle of huge flame race war. Why did this start? Its because of our culture really. Larva, who represented Korea, dissed on Chinese player, who represented China, and that pissed off many people on internet, as fellow countryman got insulted, and by proxy, the nation was shamed.
Would this sort of reaction have happened if it was a non-asian player? I highly doubt it. Did this happen when Larva taunted Sea and when he BM'd against other Koreans while he was streaming? Nope. Would it have had happened if it was Chinese player doing it to Korean? Hell yea. Japanese player doing it to Korean/Chinese? Yup. A non asian-player doing it to Chinese/Korean/Japanese? Oh yes.
This mentality of "insult a fellow countrymen, and you insult our entire nation" mentality isn't a widespread idea in the west. Even in more nationalistic western countries, its not as extreme as it is in our nations.
Because of this, this concept may not make sense to a lot of westerners, but that video does perfectly well to explain that sort of mentality.
Ask yourself this: Would non-asians have this sort of huge reaction if a player from their own nationality got humiliated?
It is funny that you are the only person who brought up this nationalism thing and used it to attack people from another country.
Is it really nationalism? It is very simple: would Chinese people be angry if LX did the same thing to PJ in a nationally broadcasted match? Of course, even LX's fans wouldn't accept it, and he would've basically ruined himself because nobody would play him anymore or respect him any more.
On December 06 2017 16:43 jinjin5000 wrote: Anyways, if you guys don't quite understand why Chinese are outraged, its the mindset of "Humiliate a countryman, spit on entire nation". This mindset is common in Asia, especially japan/korea/China, but china has sheer amount of number despite the whole firewall stuff
If small off comment that may be remotely negative on china on YouTube channel run by a white dude can spark outrage from thousands of Chinese, with tons of websites running article "white person talks shit on china", imagine what THIS did.
If you want to know more about it, I suggest you watch channel: ADVchina. Amazing YouTube channel who speaks without any qualms about China and living there. They cover this topic often. Give this video a watch.
Lol I don't know why you always want to emphasis this thing to a national level while actually it is not. Tell me in what other sport you can do such bad activity without a punishment and long suspend. So you think show that BM to your opponent is normal? Show match? Did you see players in Barcelona do that kind of thing during their friendly match? Did you see the same thing happen when any NBA team is in their global show match? Did you see the same thing happen when Chinese Pingpong player in a large lead? No you didn't and you will not because it is a normal rule that you SHOULD respect your opponent. You always mention "Chinese" is over reacting, is it true? I feel you are more excited because it is you not other people take legend as a representative of "Chinese" and you are imaging Larva is fooling "CHINESE player" and makes you excited. This is no good and not funny. And do not pretend to know China well and trying to sell your bias view. Again, stop making this thing "national".
You dont see the irony in your own words, do you?
Let me preface this that while I thought what Larva did was hilarious, it was 100% out of line if the other party was hurt by it. I felt bit uncomfortable during the celebrations and BM and thought it was bit of bad taste, and legend has 100% right to be livid by the behavior if he wasn't aware of this happening beforehand. But I am not talking about Legend, I am talking about this whole phenomenon of race wars spilling over in multiple forums of multiple languages including TeamLiquid with sole purpose of defending a country's honor over a single hurt player.
Seems like nationalism more than others factors to me. I lived in Korea and they did same thing. I see my asian friends from China/Korea/Japan do the same thing. I grew up being taught that this sort of behavior was right and along lines of "you represent your country's reputation when you go overseas" sort of mentality. Has to be that.
Its not political really, its just inherent part of our culture that tends to sway that way. This is of foreign concept to most westerners who may not understand this. As a person who spent childhood in Korea before moving to US, I could see that this kind of concept may be foreign to those of non-asian origin.
I am not trying to attack China. I am trying to explain to unfamiliar people why this issue became so big. Hell, if you look at larva's forum pages, its filled with koreans and Chinese telling each other to kill themselves and being in middle of huge flame race war. Why did this start? Its because of our culture really. Larva, who represented Korea, dissed on Chinese player, who represented China, and that pissed off many people on internet, as fellow countryman got insulted, and by proxy, the nation was shamed.
Would this sort of reaction have happened if it was a non-asian player? I highly doubt it. Did this happen when Larva taunted Sea and when he BM'd against other Koreans while he was streaming? Nope. Would it have had happened if it was Chinese player doing it to Korean? Hell yea. Japanese player doing it to Korean/Chinese? Yup. A non asian-player doing it to Chinese/Korean/Japanese? Oh yes.
This mentality of "insult a fellow countrymen, and you insult our entire nation" mentality isn't a widespread idea in the west. Even in more nationalistic western countries, its not as extreme as it is in our nations.
Because of this, this concept may not make sense to a lot of westerners, but that video does perfectly well to explain that sort of mentality.
Ask yourself this: Would non-asians have this sort of huge reaction if a player from their own nationality got humiliated?
It is funny that you are the only person who brought up this nationalism thing and used it to attack people from a country
Then maybe China shouldn’t bring nationalism into an incident that has nothing to do with it? The fact that this is getting Chinese National headline from bunch of state controlled articles and Chinese netizens getting outraged is because the person who did the bm was Korean and not a white foreign player.
On December 06 2017 16:43 jinjin5000 wrote: Anyways, if you guys don't quite understand why Chinese are outraged, its the mindset of "Humiliate a countryman, spit on entire nation". This mindset is common in Asia, especially japan/korea/China, but china has sheer amount of number despite the whole firewall stuff
If small off comment that may be remotely negative on china on YouTube channel run by a white dude can spark outrage from thousands of Chinese, with tons of websites running article "white person talks shit on china", imagine what THIS did.
If you want to know more about it, I suggest you watch channel: ADVchina. Amazing YouTube channel who speaks without any qualms about China and living there. They cover this topic often. Give this video a watch.
Lol I don't know why you always want to emphasis this thing to a national level while actually it is not. Tell me in what other sport you can do such bad activity without a punishment and long suspend. So you think show that BM to your opponent is normal? Show match? Did you see players in Barcelona do that kind of thing during their friendly match? Did you see the same thing happen when any NBA team is in their global show match? Did you see the same thing happen when Chinese Pingpong player in a large lead? No you didn't and you will not because it is a normal rule that you SHOULD respect your opponent. You always mention "Chinese" is over reacting, is it true? I feel you are more excited because it is you not other people take legend as a representative of "Chinese" and you are imaging Larva is fooling "CHINESE player" and makes you excited. This is no good and not funny. And do not pretend to know China well and trying to sell your bias view. Again, stop making this thing "national".
You dont see the irony in your own words, do you?
Let me preface this that while I thought what Larva did was hilarious, it was 100% out of line if the other party was hurt by it. I felt bit uncomfortable during the celebrations and BM and thought it was bit of bad taste, and legend has 100% right to be livid by the behavior if he wasn't aware of this happening beforehand. But I am not talking about Legend, I am talking about this whole phenomenon of race wars spilling over in multiple forums of multiple languages including TeamLiquid with sole purpose of defending a country's honor over a single hurt player.
Seems like nationalism more than others factors to me. I lived in Korea and they did same thing. I see my asian friends from China/Korea/Japan do the same thing. I grew up being taught that this sort of behavior was right and along lines of "you represent your country's reputation when you go overseas" sort of mentality. Has to be that.
Its not political really, its just inherent part of our culture that tends to sway that way. This is of foreign concept to most westerners who may not understand this. As a person who spent childhood in Korea before moving to US, I could see that this kind of concept may be foreign to those of non-asian origin.
I am not trying to attack China. I am trying to explain to unfamiliar people why this issue became so big. Hell, if you look at larva's forum pages, its filled with koreans and Chinese telling each other to kill themselves and being in middle of huge flame race war. Why did this start? Its because of our culture really. Larva, who represented Korea, dissed on Chinese player, who represented China, and that pissed off many people on internet, as fellow countryman got insulted, and by proxy, the nation was shamed.
Would this sort of reaction have happened if it was a non-asian player? I highly doubt it. Did this happen when Larva taunted Sea and when he BM'd against other Koreans while he was streaming? Nope. Would it have had happened if it was Chinese player doing it to Korean? Hell yea. Japanese player doing it to Korean/Chinese? Yup. A non asian-player doing it to Chinese/Korean/Japanese? Oh yes.
This mentality of "insult a fellow countrymen, and you insult our entire nation" mentality isn't a widespread idea in the west. Even in more nationalistic western countries, its not as extreme as it is in our nations.
Because of this, this concept may not make sense to a lot of westerners, but that video does perfectly well to explain that sort of mentality.
Ask yourself this: Would non-asians have this sort of huge reaction if a player from their own nationality got humiliated?
It is funny that you are the only person who brought up this nationalism thing and used it to attack people from a country
Then maybe China shouldn’t bring nationalism into an incident that has nothing to do with it? The fact that this is getting Chinese National headline from bunch of state controlled articles and media is because the person who did the bm was Korean and not a white foreign player.
I didn't see a single post on this forum that a Chinese brought up nationalism into this incident.
You must be kidding - of course Chinese media wouldn't make it headline if nobody cares about it. It is because it happened to LX, otherwise who cares? Would Indian cricket games make the headline of New York Times? Is it because of nationalism?
I believe some people here way overestimated the "impact" of this incident in China. No, it didn't make any headline of major media in China. Very few people really followed or cared about the few online media reports. BW is essentially a dead game in China, that is sad, but it is the truth. Maybe some Chinese like to bring up nationalism, but not this time. Why? Who would care about a game if almost nobody plays it?
On December 06 2017 16:43 jinjin5000 wrote: Anyways, if you guys don't quite understand why Chinese are outraged, its the mindset of "Humiliate a countryman, spit on entire nation". This mindset is common in Asia, especially japan/korea/China, but china has sheer amount of number despite the whole firewall stuff
If small off comment that may be remotely negative on china on YouTube channel run by a white dude can spark outrage from thousands of Chinese, with tons of websites running article "white person talks shit on china", imagine what THIS did.
If you want to know more about it, I suggest you watch channel: ADVchina. Amazing YouTube channel who speaks without any qualms about China and living there. They cover this topic often. Give this video a watch.
Lol I don't know why you always want to emphasis this thing to a national level while actually it is not. Tell me in what other sport you can do such bad activity without a punishment and long suspend. So you think show that BM to your opponent is normal? Show match? Did you see players in Barcelona do that kind of thing during their friendly match? Did you see the same thing happen when any NBA team is in their global show match? Did you see the same thing happen when Chinese Pingpong player in a large lead? No you didn't and you will not because it is a normal rule that you SHOULD respect your opponent. You always mention "Chinese" is over reacting, is it true? I feel you are more excited because it is you not other people take legend as a representative of "Chinese" and you are imaging Larva is fooling "CHINESE player" and makes you excited. This is no good and not funny. And do not pretend to know China well and trying to sell your bias view. Again, stop making this thing "national".
You dont see the irony in your own words, do you?
Let me preface this that while I thought what Larva did was hilarious, it was 100% out of line if the other party was hurt by it. I felt bit uncomfortable during the celebrations and BM and thought it was bit of bad taste, and legend has 100% right to be livid by the behavior if he wasn't aware of this happening beforehand. But I am not talking about Legend, I am talking about this whole phenomenon of race wars spilling over in multiple forums of multiple languages including TeamLiquid with sole purpose of defending a country's honor over a single hurt player.
Seems like nationalism more than others factors to me. I lived in Korea and they did same thing. I see my asian friends from China/Korea/Japan do the same thing. I grew up being taught that this sort of behavior was right and along lines of "you represent your country's reputation when you go overseas" sort of mentality. Has to be that.
Its not political really, its just inherent part of our culture that tends to sway that way. This is of foreign concept to most westerners who may not understand this. As a person who spent childhood in Korea before moving to US, I could see that this kind of concept may be foreign to those of non-asian origin.
I am not trying to attack China. I am trying to explain to unfamiliar people why this issue became so big. Hell, if you look at larva's forum pages, its filled with koreans and Chinese telling each other to kill themselves and being in middle of huge flame race war. Why did this start? Its because of our culture really. Larva, who represented Korea, dissed on Chinese player, who represented China, and that pissed off many people on internet, as fellow countryman got insulted, and by proxy, the nation was shamed.
Would this sort of reaction have happened if it was a non-asian player? I highly doubt it. Did this happen when Larva taunted Sea and when he BM'd against other Koreans while he was streaming? Nope. Would it have had happened if it was Chinese player doing it to Korean? Hell yea. Japanese player doing it to Korean/Chinese? Yup. A non asian-player doing it to Chinese/Korean/Japanese? Oh yes.
This mentality of "insult a fellow countrymen, and you insult our entire nation" mentality isn't a widespread idea in the west. Even in more nationalistic western countries, its not as extreme as it is in our nations.
Because of this, this concept may not make sense to a lot of westerners, but that video does perfectly well to explain that sort of mentality.
Ask yourself this: Would non-asians have this sort of huge reaction if a player from their own nationality got humiliated?
My friend I have to say again that your understanding does not reflect the fact very well. You are describing it to be a national news in China but it is not. Who else will care the hell of a dead game, lol.
You see some fans from China discussing this thing on the forum or reddit, yes, but the reason is not "China is insulted". LX was one of the best SC players(he retired many years ago though) and he brought many good memories to the SC fans. Do you really think there will be no fan come out and complain if Grrr/Heaton/Grubby is insulted?
People are here because we love starcraft for many years, this fvcking dead game. We want to treat it more like a "sport" than just a game, we want players and fans of this game respect each other. C'mon this is such an old game and many fans are about (or already) to teach their son to play it. No one will expect this game to be like Snooker but stop showing your foot to your opponent just like you are still in primary school.
And answer to your last question, of course yes. So many football players are suspended because of doing gestures to fans. I watched many games or sports, SC/CS/WAR3/OW/FIFA, Soccer, Basketball, Tennis... it was the first time I saw this kind of activity can gain praises instead of punishment. If someone show his foot over the net to Federer, I bet he does not need to play tennis any more this life.
And I add here, if it is LX did the same thing to Larva, will fans cheer for that? No, they will blame him. Don't say that Larva's game skill is better so he can do that. When LX was in his golden age and joined SKT1, Larva was still in high school. You can insult your opponent because you have better game skill, is it correct thing?
On December 07 2017 05:38 thinkinger wrote: I didn't see a single post on this forum that a Chinese brought up nationalism into this incident.
You must be kidding - of course Chinese media wouldn't make it headline if nobody cares about it. It is because it happened to LX, otherwise who cares? Would Indian cricket games make the headline of New York Times? Is it because of nationalism?
Of course no Chinese person would say "I'm here because of 'nationalism'". But the very fact that these threads have been flooded by I'd say over a dozen new accounts just to comment on this one tiny incident is what makes people think nationalism. That, and the aggressive, confrontational tone of all these new posters. Flooding in here and demanding apologies and respect is a sure way to get neither.
On December 06 2017 18:29 FoR_BlueS wrote: To be honest, I am very impressed by Larva's social wisdom, not only is he a good BW player, he surely knows how to entertain his audience, 。。。 from both sides...
here is what I heard about the timestamp from lx and his friends and this forum。。。。a.
I donot think larva will do real apology to lx in privite not even in public.
I sponsored lots of game larva vs somepro. About two month ago,I sponsor larva vs someone,3/2,500balloons. I said to larva that I want to join game to and observer . Larva ignor what I said and start the game ,then he said 'sori" "sori" "I didnot see " .It looks like he didnot see my word.If true It is OK and I donot mind.But finally my friend (who speak korea language)told me that larva notice what I said ,larva talk in Korea language that he actually see what I said but still "ignor "me.
Here is the larva's black history (a korea friend told me this yesterday)^_^:
Larva use to smoke and had bad manner in SKT1 although he was not even a adult.When lose to someone (elder than him),he start to talk shit. Once he was drinking alcohol and eating pig's foot, and SKT1 coach find him.Larva got punished by coach and he should upload 40 replays of practice everyday.Larva thought coach was busy and would never watch his replays.Then larva upload replays ( only 2-3mins lenth) to the coach.Coachs watched these replays and decide wash larva away.When the new zerg-practicor come,larva was fired.Larva beg but no use.
Larva then prepare to interview as zerg-practicor of CJ.But he wear SKT1 uniform for the interview.CJ coach said to him:"are you crazy""you will do crazy things in the future and we donot want cover your ass and will not hire you"Then no company want larva.
On December 06 2017 18:01 SpringWind wrote: Football,skating and now e-sports,south korea play a shameful role anywhere XD.
To any and all Chinese posters on this thread, please do not escalate the discussion to nationalism and keep the discussion relevant to this incident. Unless you want to know who died in Death Note, if you haven't seen it yet that is...
LOL,are you threatening me? The thing what larva did is totally nationalism.
“For in the end, he was trying to tell us what afflicted the people in 'Brave New World' was not that they were laughing instead of thinking, but that they did not know what they were laughing about and why they had stopped thinking.”
― Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business
I donot think larva will do real apology to lx in privite not even in public.
I sponsored lots of game larva vs somepro. About two month ago,I sponsor larva vs someone,3/2,500balloons. I said to larva that I want to join game to and observer . Larva ignor what I said and start the game ,then he said 'sori" "sori" "I didnot see " .It looks like he didnot see my word.If true It is OK and I donot mind.But finally my friend (who speak korea language)told me that larva notice what I said ,larva talk in Korea language that he actually see what I said but still "ignor "me.
Do you really need to post same shit on every thread with double post?
On December 06 2017 18:01 SpringWind wrote: Football,skating and now e-sports,south korea play a shameful role anywhere XD.
To any and all Chinese posters on this thread, please do not escalate the discussion to nationalism and keep the discussion relevant to this incident. Unless you want to know who died in Death Note, if you haven't seen it yet that is...
LOL,are you threatening me? The thing what larva did is totally nationalism.
I will tell you who died in the Death Note anime to ruin one of the best TV shows ever for you . Just kidding, it was supposed to be a joke.
“For in the end, he was trying to tell us what afflicted the people in 'Brave New World' was not that they were laughing instead of thinking, but that they did not know what they were laughing about and why they had stopped thinking.”
― Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business
Ah yes, it's proof that we live in a dystopia that anyone could laugh at someone playing StarCraft with his foot. The appropriate response to seeing that is obviously to stop and deeply think about the nature of public discourse.
all these chinese posters are just foaming at the mouth trying to talk shit about larva while claiming it's totally not about being chinese, while claiming that larva shamed korea and that he shamed lx because he was chinese; but no, none of the 20 chinese posters here are doing this because lx is chinese, it's because he's cool.
Love hate or whatever, this thing should be over soon and most people that are not interested with bw in the first place would forget and move on.
If anything, Larva's opinion shows that he thinks BW as a pro scene is becoming a scene in the past, what left is mostly streams and getting viewers, which suits his interests in the first place.
On December 07 2017 12:44 Yiome wrote: If anything, Larva's opinion shows that he thinks BW as a pro scene is becoming a scene in the past, what left is mostly streams and getting viewers, which suits his interests in the first place.
It is a bit sad really.
??? Where is this coming from
Man if FireBatHero in his samsung khan jacket pulled this on lx you people would still react the same.
I donot think larva will do real apology to lx in privite not even in public.
I sponsored lots of game larva vs somepro. About two month ago,I sponsor larva vs someone,3/2,500balloons. I said to larva that I want to join game to and observer . Larva ignor what I said and start the game ,then he said 'sori" "sori" "I didnot see " .It looks like he didnot see my word.If true It is OK and I donot mind.But finally my friend (who speak korea language)told me that larva notice what I said ,larva talk in Korea language that he actually see what I said but still "ignor "me.
Do you really need to post same shit on every thread with double post?
I donot think larva will do real apology to lx in privite not even in public.
I sponsored lots of game larva vs somepro. About two month ago,I sponsor larva vs someone,3/2,500balloons. I said to larva that I want to join game to and observer . Larva ignor what I said and start the game ,then he said 'sori" "sori" "I didnot see " .It looks like he didnot see my word.If true It is OK and I donot mind.But finally my friend (who speak korea language)told me that larva notice what I said ,larva talk in Korea language that he actually see what I said but still "ignor "me.
Do you really need to post same shit on every thread with double post?
as opposed to your highly informative posts?
What I posted twice or thrice? And what's not informative about my posts? I posted only Larva's stuns on Larva thread and after on merged thread on spoiler so ppl will get quick reference nothing else. Let's talk about your posts then. You posted like 4 times about he didn't apologizing on this thread. On other threads you constantly contradicting and trying to make what Larva did super bad. What you achieved? Nothing. Are you secretly chinese?
I donot think larva will do real apology to lx in privite not even in public.
I sponsored lots of game larva vs somepro. About two month ago,I sponsor larva vs someone,3/2,500balloons. I said to larva that I want to join game to and observer . Larva ignor what I said and start the game ,then he said 'sori" "sori" "I didnot see " .It looks like he didnot see my word.If true It is OK and I donot mind.But finally my friend (who speak korea language)told me that larva notice what I said ,larva talk in Korea language that he actually see what I said but still "ignor "me.
Do you really need to post same shit on every thread with double post?
I donot think larva will do real apology to lx in privite not even in public.
I sponsored lots of game larva vs somepro. About two month ago,I sponsor larva vs someone,3/2,500balloons. I said to larva that I want to join game to and observer . Larva ignor what I said and start the game ,then he said 'sori" "sori" "I didnot see " .It looks like he didnot see my word.If true It is OK and I donot mind.But finally my friend (who speak korea language)told me that larva notice what I said ,larva talk in Korea language that he actually see what I said but still "ignor "me.
Do you really need to post same shit on every thread with double post?
On December 07 2017 12:44 Yiome wrote: If anything, Larva's opinion shows that he thinks BW as a pro scene is becoming a scene in the past, what left is mostly streams and getting viewers, which suits his interests in the first place.
It is a bit sad really.
??? Where is this coming from
Man if FireBatHero in his samsung khan jacket pulled this on lx you people would still react the same.
All I meant to do is to give my effort to liven up the tournement and starcraft scene, and I had come to a conclusion that there would need to be a showmanship performance to pull interest.
If I look at just the results, when I pull AfreecaTV's data, It was a success and I was able to get large amount of viewers that belied the fact that it was 3-5am in the morning
Did you read what he said or just see that my TL profiles says "China" ? lol I did not really care about this thing being an insult. It just proves Larva is being Larva, and just like countless streamers, trying to make a living by being relevant. Nothing wrong with that, that's the world we are living in now.
it was the equivalent of a WCG group stage; they only brought in Larva as an event to the side of the main tournament
i'm pretty sure larva wouldn't practice as hard as he does or get as far in many ASLs if he was a BJ who only cares about getting balloons like you made him out to be
you talk shit about him but he's a very serious competitor who works for it.
I was surprised... And I think lx's reaction was more through embarassment. tbf the zotac admins should've intervened and stopped the game <2minutes if it was "against their regulations". His terran seemed pretty awful and if he had attempted the same thing against Draco he would have been crushed lol..
EPT
Since the foreigners he mentioned aren't the ones with the problem, it's kind of irrelevant that he mentioned them. (don't get me wrong, it's cool in a standalone context, but in this context it's like, well... You responded to everyone except for the dude you embarrassed)
