EPTWhat can we as a community do to improve StarCraft - Page 16
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
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iopq
United States953 Posts
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On November 24 2017 21:18 ProMeTheus112 wrote: errr look thats the opposite of what i want of a ladder, because any system that makes an imbalance between win and loss encourages grinding and makes the ladder inefficient and tedious as a tool for getting better (and getting matched well and playing better more fun games) like, preferably, even no win streak bonus, no motw bonus, etc, only based on ladder points and equal win/loss at equal rating, why not equal win/loss at non equal ratings too just smaller than if equal ratings and I say this while I'm never at the top of ladder 100% agree. we don't need blizz throwing us virtual points to placate our fragility. I don't even see how that would alleviate ladder anxiety. It's a superficial band aid for people who probably won't even stick with the game. hell, I actually like BW because losing is brutal and that's what makes that one win worthwhile. The best way to alleviate ladder anxiety is to have an effective MM system that helps you a fair chance to win at least half your games. Please don't inflate points. The BW crowd don't need that, we know the ass reaming we are getting ourselves into. On November 25 2017 13:57 duke91 wrote: I think they made BW free to justify SC2 being free. SCR is intentionally bugged kill of BW so that they can promote SC2 in korea. Cant explain otherwise how a Billion dollar company couldnt do what some random korean dude can in terms of not programming shit. Thoughts? Just no. Intentionally bugged to promote SC2 in Korea? Come on man. I visit Korea every year and more people are now playing BW in Lan Cafes due to SC: Remastered. I hardly see any SC2 games here, but I see a lot more SC:R ladder, UMS, and fastest. The lan cafes (PC bangs) all have huge posters promoting SC:R as well. It's a good time to play BW in Korea. | ||
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toriak
Slovakia477 Posts
On November 25 2017 13:57 duke91 wrote: I think they made BW free to justify SC2 being free. SCR is intentionally bugged kill of BW so that they can promote SC2 in korea. Cant explain otherwise how a Billion dollar company couldnt do what some random korean dude can in terms of not programming shit. Thoughts? SCR is not BW ! Saying so is like killing of the game. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 25 2017 15:14 Golgotha wrote: Just no. Intentionally bugged to promote SC2 in Korea? Come on man. I visit Korea every year and more people are now playing BW in Lan Cafes due to SC: Remastered. I hardly see any SC2 games here, but I see a lot more SC:R ladder, UMS, and fastest. The lan cafes (PC bangs) all have huge posters promoting SC:R as well. It's a good time to play BW in Korea. Quite honestly, Blizzard have bigger fish to fry with their main product Overwatch lagging behind in popularity behind titles such as PUBG, or League of Legends at the moment. Brood War is the least of Blizzard's worries at the moment, and their lack of competency reflects their stance on the matter. It's like an abusive step-father harping on about necessary structure for the family, and how hard it is for him to sustain financial stability. Nefarious intentions be damned, if Blizzard is going to be involved within the Brood War scene to this degree, the least the community can ask for is some semblance of competency without being hen pecked by non-Brood War community members and corporate shills. Further more, there's no need to pretend that Starcraft Remastered has somehow revitalized Brood War's popularity in Korea to whole new levels. That's just factually incorrect, and all you needed to do was check out the numbers after searching on Google for all of ten seconds. Brood War's numbers from November 2012: 3.36% http://www.gametrics.com/news/news02_view.aspx?seqid=8125 Brood War's numbers from November 2013: 3.27% http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=15175 Brood War's numbers from November 2014: 3.36% http://www.gametrics.com/news/news02_view.aspx?seqid=21103 Brood War's numbers from November 2015: 3.61% http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=26073 Brood War's numbers from November 2016: 3.2% http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=29322 Brood War's numbers from November 2017: 2.8% http://www.gametrics.com/ Brood War was always had a following in Korea, whether Blizzard was being involved or not. It's always been good to watch and play Brood War, and it would be great if Blizzard didn't fuck that experience up, whether it is through their greed or incompetence. I really couldn't give two shits about Blizzard's intentions as long as the Brood War scene benefits from it. Right now you are suggesting a benefit that clearly does not seem to exist. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On November 25 2017 15:45 Letmelose wrote: Quite honestly, Blizzard have bigger fish to fry with their main product Overwatch lagging behind in popularity behind titles such as PUBG, or League of Legends at the moment. Brood War is the least of Blizzard's worries at the moment, and their lack of competency reflects their stance on the matter. It's like an abusive step-father harping on about necessary structure for the family, and how hard it is for him to sustain financial stability. Nefarious intentions be damned, if Blizzard is going to be involved within the Brood War scene to this degree, the least the community can ask for is some semblance of competency without being hen pecked by non-Brood War community members and corporate shills. Further more, there's no need to pretend that Starcraft Remastered has somehow revitalized Brood War's popularity in Korea to whole new levels. That's just factually incorrect, and all you needed to do was check out the numbers after searching on Google for all of ten seconds. Brood War's numbers from November 2012: 3.36% http://www.gametrics.com/news/news02_view.aspx?seqid=8125 Brood War's numbers from November 2013: 3.27% http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=15175 Brood War's numbers from November 2014: 3.36% http://www.gametrics.com/news/news02_view.aspx?seqid=21103 Brood War's numbers from November 2015: 3.61% http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=26073 Brood War's number from November 2016: 3.2% http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=29322 Brood War's number from November 2017: 2.8% http://www.gametrics.com/ Brood War was always had a following in Korea, whether Blizzard was being involved or not. It's always been good to watch and play Brood War, and it would be great if Blizzard didn't fuck that experience up, whether it is through their greed or incompetence. I really couldn't care two shits about Blizzard's intentions as long as the Brood War scene benefits from it. Right now you are suggesting a benefit that clearly does not seem to exist. Lol don't get me wrong, I ain't saying that it's some kind of atmosphere rise. I ain't saying that SC:R revitalized the scene, that's arguable. I made those points because some people think that blizzard is conspiring against the BW scene and trying to bring about its downfall. What I'm saying is that Blizz didn't intentionally bug SC:R so that it could promote the sc2 scene in korea. Not sure how else to put it without people thinking I am suggesting something else. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
So, it's not the crew that is working on the game, it's more in the way that their bosses tell them to work on the game, or not, corresponding to the value this has for the fans and the longevity of the game. And they have an agenda for this if they're greedy enough to want to make us more likely to move on to their other more pricy "modern" money grinding games. Which they certainly have seemed to be for a while. So yeah I'm not inside blizzard HQ checking that stuff out but that's the perception I'm receiving from this business for quite some years yeah, pretty confirmed imo lol. Like the overall strategy for SC:R from a business standpoint seems to be, let's make a bunch of money and try to regrab a bit of reputation for not seemingly trying to pretend that BW doesn't exist anymore, but let's put it in a awkward situation so that there is in the long run more incentive to play these other games which are linked to all of its players in the launcher adware and just work a lot better where it counts and from which we are grinding a lot more money continuously by design. That's the call that the bosses of actiblizz can make/arrange and for those who profit from it, shareholders of the company, not the employees working on the game. + Show Spoiler + It almost looks as an attempt to insinuate to people who try it now and didn't play it before "hey this is an old game, it still works weird like that you may think its because its old, so maybe just play more recent games buy more games the new stuff coming out go go" lol is that a stretch? maybe, maybe not, I've seen blizzard take this type of attitude with "you think you want it, but you don't" stuff | ||
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shall_burn
252 Posts
On November 25 2017 09:28 killanator wrote: Just to put in my final 2 cents about ladder anxiety, I totally agree with what you say. I played iccup back in 09-10, and best I ever got was hovering at D, I had terrible ladder anxiety in those days and in SC2. Since RM, I have come back to BW, and I continually have been playing ladder (or hunters, whatever I want to) and losing and playing badly a lot, but I haven't lost my enjoyment even though I generally lose. I have looked at it like the way I look at golf. If you're not a golfer, hopefully you can still understand this analogy. As a whole, I am terrible at golf. I don't get good scores, and if I focused on getting a good score, I would be miserable every time and have no fun. But what I can do is make a good shot here and there, maybe a good drive or good pitch, and maybe even get a birdie once in a while. I still get a shit score at the end of the day but I relish those good moments. I have taken this viewpoint into my starcraft playing. Maybe I didn't win, and overall I never play well. I will never be very good at this game. But I can focus on that one fight where I did well, good micro at certain points, a good drop I did, good storms, maybe just even had fun building my base. And even if I generally lose, I win once in a while to. Just learn to relish the smaller moments in the game where you might do certain things well. Eventually you will probably get better, but don't play with the goal of getting better. Play with the goal of finding smaller things that you enjoy. If you don't enjoy smaller things like that, you probably don't enjoy the game, especially if your only goal is to be good when you are not. In my city, some grandpas and elderly men are playing football in the park every Sunday. Of course, they do it for fun. Now imagine, if they tried hard to "get better" to play like the pros, etc. From my observation, people are anxious and have 0 fun because they try to copy pros. They only enjoy the "perfect" games with shiny timings, standart unit compositions, etc. Of course, such games are almost non-existent even amongst actual pros... leave alone the amateurs. The perfectionism, I think, is the root of ladder anxiety. Now, Imagine those football-grandpas actually trying to get good and pay like professional soccer players... Ridiculous | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
How can anyone say blizzard does this for money? How does that make sense? SC generates no money! Remaster is a passion project! Bw is not popular outside of korea. Even in korea the younger generation doesn't pick up bw. The unpopularity has nothing to do with lag, interface or anything else than the gameplay. It is too frustrating for normal players. If you don't like SC:R, play the free version. The old version of bw is still supported. But guys don't make up conspiracy theories that blizzard tries to kill sc/bw to promote sc2. It makes no sense financially, from a marketing point of view and logically. What would they gain? Nothing! | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
and these problems are induced or worsened by the way the system is laid out | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
On November 25 2017 23:20 ProMeTheus112 wrote: well the unpopularity does have to do with lag and interface since some of us most passionate bw players have been quitting to play the game for those reasons lol We don't need the old players who were always passionate about bw. We need new players in millions to become popular. Just asking: Does the old version lag too? Can't you play on ICCup? Aren't there still private servers? EDIT: In my time bw games were always laggy (every second, third game was laggy). And games vs koreans and us west were unplayable (1-2 sec lag, timeout). | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On November 25 2017 23:24 todespolka wrote: We don't need the old players who were always passionate about bw. We need new players in millions to become popular. Just asking: Does the old version lag too? Can't you play on ICCup? Aren't there still private servers? So you want millions new players and don't care for the passionate players but you say the game is too frustrating for normal players. The old version works quite a lot better as I'm sure you know. I think you know that ICCup is still online. There exist private servers. So ? You must be implying that I should not write my opinion and just go play there. But I could do either of these, or both, or none, as I wish^^ On November 25 2017 23:24 todespolka wrote: games vs koreans and us west were unplayable (1-2 sec lag, timeout). ya you see that's why like I said problems induced or worsened by way SC:R system is laid out, one example of it basically this is a way of laying out a system that specifically worsens the issues you may have with pear to pear network thing instead of making a system that specifically improves the advantages you may have with pear to pear network thing... lol tie it all to korea where the game cannot ungrow and this creates an environment where it is bad to get good or rank higher if you are not where the game is already grown. perfect^^ status quo check, go buy hearthstone thx | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28690 Posts
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On November 25 2017 23:24 todespolka wrote: We don't need the old players who were always passionate about bw. We need new players in millions to become popular. Just asking: Does the old version lag too? Can't you play on ICCup? Aren't there still private servers? EDIT: In my time bw games were always laggy (every second, third game was laggy). And games vs koreans and us west were unplayable (1-2 sec lag, timeout). No one ever thought BW was going to become massively popular with the release of SC:R, not even Blizzard. You're off-kilter here and completely missing the point regardless. Also pre-SC:R lag was not nearly as bad for several reasons. Most aren't Blizzard's fault. Foreigners mostly played against foreigners. If you used a lan latency launcher along with your opponent (chaos, mca64, iccup launcher, etc.) and you still experienced lag frequently, chances are you're the person with the shit internet connection and somehow were the last person to get the memo, cause you are by far in the minority. If you just loaded up StarCraft as a new player and tried to play games on the public servers, I don't blame you though for experiencing lag. That is one thing StarCraft: Remastered has done right; removing the difficult entry barrier to play the game. Not everyone knew that you needed 3rd party programs to play the game with lan latency. Brood War is unfortunately one of the most unwelcoming games for people to get into. The mechanics are hard, the design is a bit archaic, and the amount of knowledge you need just to win your first game sets the bar higher than any game I know. These are also on top of the fact that you had to know that the most populous servers weren't even public ones at the later parts of the games history on top of realizing about the 3rd party launchers, etc. However, as I said previously, my lag with Koreans was not this bad pre-SC:R. I played hundreds of games on Fish in preparation for the release of Remastered, and I can say without a doubt that it was way less laggy than it is in its current state (and I am ballparking that about 90%+ of my opponents are Korean on ladder atm). I agree with Drone, but I really have no solution or guess here why that is. Something that interests me though is the numbers letmelose provided - with BW becoming less and less populous, yet Grant has said since the release the numbers have only been growing. Does that mean that there was less than 2.8% of people playing BW on August 2017 and then somehow magically climbed up to 2.8% in this current month? | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28690 Posts
I also noticed that every game gradually got the TR reduced - but it never happened that the TR was increased. It's a very bad solution if temporary lag automatically reduces the TR and it's not corrected afterwards. | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
On November 25 2017 23:30 ProMeTheus112 wrote: So you want millions new players and don't care for the passionate players but you say the game is too frustrating for normal players. The old version works quite a lot better as I'm sure you know. I think you know that ICCup is still online. There exist private servers. So ? You must be implying that I should not write my opinion and just go play there. But I could do either of these, or both, or none, as I wish^^ No, you misunderstood me. It is one thing to complain, give feedback and it is another to bitch, start conspiracy theories, falsehoods and other bullshit. It makes no sense for blizzard to destroy bw, because it is such a small part of their business. I would even argue that SC:R is a passion project, at most a marketing project and that blizzard remasters bw because they like the game. Is that impossible? Do all big companies need to be evil? I asked about the old version, because if the old version still functions, then there is no reason to quit the game. Regarding popularity I wanted to say that bw was never popular outside of korea to begin with and that it is certainly not popular enough today to justify a big developer team and maybe not big enough to solve global lag issues, skill issues in small regions and other issues. SC/BW is a very good game, but the PvP is enjoyed only by a fraction of people. This is fine! Not every game has to attract the masses, but people have to stop with the demand that blizzard has to support bw the same way they support overwatch, hearthstone and world of warcraft. | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5098 Posts
Blizzard doesn't make shit off sc1 so why would they even bother? I never expected anything at all from Blizzard after sc2 was released and it proved to be a total shit show. The fact that they even made remastered is a bit strange to me. I suggest we stop whining and bickering and start a fund. We all have full time jobs now so if everyone can donate whatever they can, we can give this to shieldbattery or whichever developers out there as a sort of "donation" or "encouragement". The funds would be collected and supervised by 3 or more persons. A range of surveys/polls made to see what features need to be developed and then a discussion with the developers on a feasible timeline and delivery date with agreed upon updates and bugfixes. Seriously if we cannot band together and even do this then just give up. No petition or facebook group or boycotting is going to make Blizzard give half a fuck. There is no incentive in sight for them. No revenue generating in game features, not enough users to justify ads, and no audience for competitions. It is the greatest game of all time and it will slowly die with a whimper. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On November 26 2017 00:14 todespolka wrote: No, you misunderstood me. It is one thing to complain, give feedback and it is another to bitch, start conspiracy theories, falsehoods and other bullshit. It makes no sense for blizzard to destroy bw, because it is such a small part of their business. I would even argue that SC:R is a passion project, at most a marketing project and that blizzard remasters bw because they like the game. Is that impossible? Do all big companies need to be evil? I asked about the old version, because if the old version still functions, then there is no reason to quit the game. Regarding popularity I wanted to say that bw was never popular outside of korea to begin with and that it is certainly not popular enough today to justify a big developer team and maybe not big enough to solve global lag issues, skill issues in small regions and other issues. SC/BW is a very good game, but the PvP is enjoyed only by a fraction of people. This is fine! Not every game has to attract the masses, but people have to stop with the demand that blizzard has to support bw the same way they support overwatch, hearthstone and world of warcraft. if they were not going to make a proper job of implementing their global ladder system for example (thats only one of the issues in SC:R), then they should not have gone that direction in the first place if it doesn't work, don't leave it broke for months as you release the game, right? you can have your own opinion on how messed up or not blizzard is, i have my own and I'll say it when i wanna its not about bitching like i dont enjoy it i just want the game FIXED NOW and even yesterday | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28690 Posts
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