On July 07 2017 22:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Toi be fair though there did seem to be a definate undercurrent of trying to sink BW to push SC2 sales in the phrasing and actions of Blizzard. Now of course the opposite will be true, but without the sinking of SC2.
again: citation, please (I'm still waiting for the actual videos/text on the previous quotes too)
your being unreasonable here. Do you expect an official Blizzard bluepost to say " oh well, we tried to shut Broodwar down in Korea, so our new title could be that much more successful" ? Obv. that didn't happen, coz it would've been a PR disaster. i don't know what you are thinking, expecting your discussion partner to deliver citations along those lines, that doesn't make any sense. Ofc we all have to make up our own mind on the motivation for what happened. There's enough material on the "what happened" part and to most of us who have been around long enough, it's pretty clear.
If you feel different, fine, but you're not making a point by saying "citation needed".
so..
Hey, why don't you tell me what you think happened in the "KeSPA debacle."
Blizzard wanted KESPA to acknowledge their ownership of the SC1 IP. The dispute with KESPA harmed SC1 rather than some sinister plan to destroy the passion of a long time fan base for a game they made 11 years prior.
Blizzard is sinking more resources into SC1. Blizzard kept SC1 servers going during an era when server support was not exactly stellar for RTS titles. What is EA doing with C&C? Ensemble with AoE?
Has Blizz always made the correct strategic moves? no. Relative to the alternatives at my disposal for RTS games Blizz has done the best job by a huge margin.
Seeing as i can't mind control monstrous entertainment software companies into doing my exact bidding... i'll have to settle for selecting the best out of several options and tolerate the company's shortcomings.
Well said JimmyJRaynor, summed up my thought's exactly pretty much, I won't mind purchasing the game for 15$ for all of the hard work Blizzard is putting into it, looks amazing.
On July 08 2017 10:17 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Blizzard wanted KESPA to acknowledge their ownership of the SC1 IP. The dispute with KESPA harmed SC1 rather than some sinister plan to destroy the passion of a long time fan base for a game they made 11 years prior.
Blizzard is sinking more resources into SC1. Blizzard kept SC1 servers going during an era when server support was not exactly stellar for RTS titles. What is EA doing with C&C? Ensemble with AoE?
Has Blizz always made the correct strategic moves? no. Relative to the alternatives at my disposal for RTS games Blizz has done the best job by a huge margin.
Seeing as i can't mind control monstrous entertainment software companies into doing my exact bidding... i'll have to settle for selecting the best out of several options and tolerate the company's shortcomings.
welcome to being a consumer.
Well both AOE 1 and 2 have gotten/are getting remake... but yes, in between, they were less supportive.
I don't think there was anything sinister about anything they did, nor what KeSPA did, although some modest incompetence in some of the moves for both.
Blizzard equally deserves praise of their good moves and condemnation of their bad ones. But again, BW competition largely continued over private servers, and BW has not functioned well on modern Windows for a long time. So there are both good and bad moves. Overall, I believe SC:R is a good one. As long as they don't try to micromanage the increasingly revitalized scene.
On July 07 2017 22:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Toi be fair though there did seem to be a definate undercurrent of trying to sink BW to push SC2 sales in the phrasing and actions of Blizzard. Now of course the opposite will be true, but without the sinking of SC2.
again: citation, please (I'm still waiting for the actual videos/text on the previous quotes too)
It's your choice to disbelieve the collective memory of several people who watched a video. I'm not going to hunt down the entire OSL finals video. The games are easy to find, but the whole broadcast less so. If you feel better thinking that it didn't happen, go for it.
no, I'm wondering if an innocuous quote was misinterpreted and twisted by a biased community, as seems to be the norm around here
On July 07 2017 22:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Toi be fair though there did seem to be a definate undercurrent of trying to sink BW to push SC2 sales in the phrasing and actions of Blizzard. Now of course the opposite will be true, but without the sinking of SC2.
again: citation, please (I'm still waiting for the actual videos/text on the previous quotes too)
It's your choice to disbelieve the collective memory of several people who watched a video. I'm not going to hunt down the entire OSL finals video. The games are easy to find, but the whole broadcast less so. If you feel better thinking that it didn't happen, go for it.
no, I'm wondering if an innocuous quote was misinterpreted and twisted by a biased community, as seems to be the norm around here
Are you sure you are totally free from bias yourself? How much do you know for a fact, that comes completely without an agenda, for you to so casually put aside all these comments on the thread. Please do educate me, and correct me if I'm wrong on the things I write below:
Timeline of events.
April 2010: Negotiations between Blizzard and KeSPA fail.
October 2010: Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague starts without Blizzard's consent, soon afterwards, MBC Game and Ongament starts their individual leagues without Blizzard's consent.
November 2010: Blizzard sues MBC Game, and Ongamenet.
October 2010: KeSPA releases a statement outlining the costs of running professional Brood War, and how Blizzard's demands will make the entire scene financially unviable. KeSPA ends their statement with how "the professional Brood War scene is need more growth and extra investment".
July 2011: Kim Joon Ho, the newly appointed head of KeSPA is quoted as saying "We are looking forward to renewal of the e-Sports scene with new titles like Starcraft 2, rather than the old method of relying on Brood War".
November 2011: SK Planet 2011/2012 ProLeague starts with a change in format, and there are rumours of this being the last of the Brood War ProLeague. If tales from Afreeca streams are to be believed, players were told in advance that they would no longer play Brood War after this season of the ProLeague.
May 2012: KeSPA announces the hybrid ProLeague of Brood War and Starcraft 2, with the ProLeague switching to Starcraft 2 completely after that.
So before Blizzard kicked their asses in the courtroom, KeSPA was all about the growth of professional Brood War, and even were willing to take hefty legal battles just for the right to continue the scene, yet as soon as they came to the realization that there was no winning against Blizzard under these circumstances, they suddenly see the light, and claim that the future of e-Sports lies with Stacraft 2, not Brood War. Just like that lovely montage done by Mr. Morhaime, who was kind enough to let the fans know what's what.
Quite a bold business choice for KeSPA if Blizzard had absolutely zero say on these changes. League of Legends had yet to be huge in Korea, and professional Brood War was basically the only financially viable professional e-Sports title for years on end, and they were suddenly going to replace all that with a gaming title that was flopping in sales in Korea. I guess Kim Joon Ho was super confident that a game that was played in the PC Bangs less than Special Force was going to become the next big e-Sports hit in Korea.
Was Blizzard hell bent on destroying Brood War? Of course not. They wanted what's best for themselves. Sometimes, what's best for Blizzard isn't the best for Brood War. Sometimes, what's best for Blizzard is terrible for Brood War. If the Brood War community can't even protest the times Blizzard actively hurts their favourite game without being seen as paranoid or biased, then why do we have this site in the first place?
Doesn't even the slightest possibility of something like the past happening again terrify you? You can act unbiased and nonchalant all you want, but I've heard nothing but blase, belittling comments from those who seemed to be more worried about sounding positive and not being biased, rather than providing hard concrete facts that smashes the fearmongers from the other side. Not only would I love to be wrong, I'd be willing to be astronomically wrong about the past so that I don't have to have a panic attack everytime Blizzard gets a little too cosy with the Brood War scene. Please. Put me out of my misery and put me in my place.
On July 07 2017 22:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Toi be fair though there did seem to be a definate undercurrent of trying to sink BW to push SC2 sales in the phrasing and actions of Blizzard. Now of course the opposite will be true, but without the sinking of SC2.
again: citation, please (I'm still waiting for the actual videos/text on the previous quotes too)
It's your choice to disbelieve the collective memory of several people who watched a video. I'm not going to hunt down the entire OSL finals video. The games are easy to find, but the whole broadcast less so. If you feel better thinking that it didn't happen, go for it.
no, I'm wondering if an innocuous quote was misinterpreted and twisted by a biased community, as seems to be the norm around here
I don't think the Blizzard message can be found anymore as they wisely decided to not include it in the official game VODs. But the reactions in the LP-thread, including yours are not positive.
On July 07 2017 22:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Toi be fair though there did seem to be a definate undercurrent of trying to sink BW to push SC2 sales in the phrasing and actions of Blizzard. Now of course the opposite will be true, but without the sinking of SC2.
again: citation, please (I'm still waiting for the actual videos/text on the previous quotes too)
It's your choice to disbelieve the collective memory of several people who watched a video. I'm not going to hunt down the entire OSL finals video. The games are easy to find, but the whole broadcast less so. If you feel better thinking that it didn't happen, go for it.
no, I'm wondering if an innocuous quote was misinterpreted and twisted by a biased community, as seems to be the norm around here
Of course the quotes of Blizzard were perceived badly, even though the intention were probably anything but malicious. However, Blizzard willingly chose their battle grounds and made their statements in a context in which they could only be interpreted as negative.
The worst part about Blizzard is that most veteran posters were madly in love with the company some decade ago for a lot of reasons. Keeping upt he ordinary servers, trying cooperations with ladders like WGTour, handing out help and organizing high level events such as the WWI/Mystery Map Invitational in addition to events you seriously didn't expect, such as the Sandlot. And that's only Brood War.
At some point this philosophy seemed to change, not including old fans every once in a while, but the opposite: trying to convince old fans that regardless what Blizzard would do next would be the best shit ever. At first it was just mildly unnerving, especially if you had doubts that SCII would live up to the hype. Over time it became annoying, then frustrating and eventually it made you rage a lot, given the entire KeSPA conflict and the PR-idiocy, which carried on even years after SCII was released. Blizzard transformed into one of these companies that constantly sends you spam via mail and then wonders why you really don't want to talk to them. Worse, they were pretty successful in sending the message "if you don't like the current Blizzard, you never were a true fan or don't know what's good". At least that's Blizzard for me. I would have understood if they just stopped the support, I would have understood if they communicated the issue with the KeSPA more transparently, but well... Blizzard just doesn't really care anymore.
I can perfectly understand any fan who now hates that company. It feels like a massive betrayal and there's no sugar coating that. And this really only is Blizzard's fault in my eyes.
On July 07 2017 22:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Toi be fair though there did seem to be a definate undercurrent of trying to sink BW to push SC2 sales in the phrasing and actions of Blizzard. Now of course the opposite will be true, but without the sinking of SC2.
again: citation, please (I'm still waiting for the actual videos/text on the previous quotes too)
It's your choice to disbelieve the collective memory of several people who watched a video. I'm not going to hunt down the entire OSL finals video. The games are easy to find, but the whole broadcast less so. If you feel better thinking that it didn't happen, go for it.
no, I'm wondering if an innocuous quote was misinterpreted and twisted by a biased community, as seems to be the norm around here
It is a shame TL is no longer a community made up by people that think like LetmeLose.
A corporate mentality has closely seeped into TL staff, shaped by selecting certain people and not selecting certain others. And I am sure all staff also feel some bias. The TL agenda is closely aligned with the Blizzard agenda. If Blizzard does well, so does TL. TL had a boom because of SC2. Before that, we were people enjoying a game that was only really still popular in Korea and that normal games had long rejected because of the graphics or because they found it too difficult. Yet we understood that the gameplay was something beautiful. And we had an attitude unlike 99% of all gamers out there back then.
In fact, most of us had quit being gamers, but only kept playing SC BW.
Yes, we were elitists, and we loved it that way. We didn't want or need new people. If someone at the current TL staff would suggest TL shrink down back to their original size again, and only do SC BW, to slowly shrink over time, they would get fired.
Waxangel should know better. I remember his arguments. He kind of pro-Kespa/OGN in the past. But at some point, when being pro-Kespa/OGN meant being anti-Blizzard, he wavered and changed his mind. Now he is an Blizzard apologist. Many people on the TL staff have no degrees and no opportunities to get a real job. They do not have the luxury to stick with an unpopular game. Tasteless and Artosis wanted an esports game. Never ever did they have the option of saying: "I either do SC BW, or I go back to the US." No. They made a commitment, took a lot of risk, and now they have to cheer for Blizzard no matter what. If SC2 dies, SC BW dies, SC:R dies, they hope they can move on to a new game.
I remember being a champion of Blizzard games with the releases of WC2 and Diablo. I convinced my classmates they were the best game devs because they were 'special'. But you have to stay realistic. Blizzard has a certain strategy. They saw that Flash playing Jaedong had huge tv ratings, meaning ad revenu. They never realized that without Flash or Jaedong, the rating would be zero. No sane person is ever going to watch two Blizzard AI's play vs each other. Without the players, there is zero value. I understand very well that the players had bad rights back then. It also pains me to see that so many supertalented players from back then still don't have normal lives, and many of them are still returning to SC BW to try to get some money to buy food. But Blizzard never acknowledged the added value of the players. The IP they wanted to claim, all the added value was created by the players, not Blizzard. So yes, they did deliberately try to destroy RTS esports, and they succeeeded. They did not try to improve the player position at all. And all things they tried to get RTS esports to work for them, rather than SKT or KTF, that utterly failed.
Blizzard wasn't only being the type or corporation described in the documentary 'The Corporation': They also were completely incompetent in achieving their own corporate goals. If they had manage to get esports with SC2 to be like SC BW in Korea, but then world-wide, while destroying the SC BW scene, then at least I could have had some respect for that. But no. They lit the fire and burned everything down, while hopelessly failing to replace anything new.
Blizzard are utterly incompetent at understanding the basic principles of RTS. And, utterly incompetent at understanding the esports business model. That they are a 'greedy corporation', that is a given. They are banned by law from being charitable.
And seeing TL staff, who are supposed to be 'respected veterans', come out and tow the Blizzard line, when we know that they know better, that is just a sad thing to see. If even TL staff cannot admit what really happened with Blizzard and Korean esports, then how can we expect the top management at Vivendi, ie boring old white men, to understand it as well?
Any support dissident movements inside Blizzard themselves might have been there, they were never even supported by a community like TL. I am sure people at Blizzard tried to stand up against all the terrible things they did; both the malicious ones and the incompetent ones. But of course, they failed and were either fired or left. We saw many exodus waves at Blizzard. And I am sure Blizzard has no problem finding new people to replace them. There must be a long line of people, WoW players, who are somewhat competent at their own expertise, very willing to work at Blizzard and to conform to whatever management decides.
I don't think any deciding made after 2014 mattered. And I also didn't notice a change. It just a new multinational management, also all old white men, making the same type of decisions in the same manner. So it is also logical that we saw no change.
If you have ever been close to management of a fortune500 level size company, you know how it works.
probably activision is closer to management of blizzard than vivendi o_o but perhaps not on classic development idk eh^^ but I mean activision is a game company, yeah theres been change since before vivendi sold~~ edit: interestingly activision was actually bought by vivendi in 2007 as they merged with blizzard lol didnt know that, ultimately I guess this is a take over of blizzard by activision from vivendi
I am very skeptical and critical of highly corporate, PC SJW pandering developers like Blizzard, but I have to be honest here, the Remaster so far is fairly low on the corporate scumbag scale. I say so far because I don't know if anything else is in the pipeline.
I understand some people having reservations about Blizz bullying their way into the bw scene in Korea. I don't know personally. My gut feeling is bw is a bit too small for them at this point to bother with much more than a cheap and cheerful Remaster cash-in and leave it at that, but maybe there could be something a bit more sinister at play with all the KeSPA history and what not.
On July 07 2017 22:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Toi be fair though there did seem to be a definate undercurrent of trying to sink BW to push SC2 sales in the phrasing and actions of Blizzard. Now of course the opposite will be true, but without the sinking of SC2.
again: citation, please (I'm still waiting for the actual videos/text on the previous quotes too)
It's your choice to disbelieve the collective memory of several people who watched a video. I'm not going to hunt down the entire OSL finals video. The games are easy to find, but the whole broadcast less so. If you feel better thinking that it didn't happen, go for it.
no, I'm wondering if an innocuous quote was misinterpreted and twisted by a biased community, as seems to be the norm around here
Are you sure you are totally free from bias yourself? How much do you know for a fact, that comes completely without an agenda, for you to so casually put aside all these comments on the thread. Please do educate me, and correct me if I'm wrong on the things I write below:
Timeline of events.
April 2010: Negotiations between Blizzard and KeSPA fail.
October 2010: Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague starts without Blizzard's consent, soon afterwards, MBC Game and Ongament starts their individual leagues without Blizzard's consent.
November 2010: Blizzard sues MBC Game, and Ongamenet.
October 2010: KeSPA releases a statement outlining the costs of running professional Brood War, and how Blizzard's demands will make the entire scene financially unviable. KeSPA ends their statement with how "the professional Brood War scene is need more growth and extra investment".
July 2011: Kim Joon Ho, the newly appointed head of KeSPA is quoted as saying "We are looking forward to renewal of the e-Sports scene with new titles like Starcraft 2, rather than the old method of relying on Brood War".
November 2011: SK Planet 2011/2012 ProLeague starts with a change in format, and there are rumours of this being the last of the Brood War ProLeague. If tales from Afreeca streams are to be believed, players were told in advance that they would no longer play Brood War after this season of the ProLeague.
May 2012: KeSPA announces the hybrid ProLeague of Brood War and Starcraft 2, with the ProLeague switching to Starcraft 2 completely after that.
So before Blizzard kicked their asses in the courtroom, KeSPA was all about the growth of professional Brood War, and even were willing to take hefty legal battles just for the right to continue the scene, yet as soon as they came to the realization that there was no winning against Blizzard under these circumstances, they suddenly see the light, and claim that the future of e-Sports lies with Stacraft 2, not Brood War. Just like that lovely montage done by Mr. Morhaime, who was kind enough to let the fans know what's what.
Quite a bold business choice for KeSPA if Blizzard had absolutely zero say on these changes. League of Legends had yet to be huge in Korea, and professional Brood War was basically the only financially viable professional e-Sports title for years on end, and they were suddenly going to replace all that with a gaming title that was flopping in sales in Korea. I guess Kim Joon Ho was super confident that a game that was played in the PC Bangs less than Special Force was going to become the next big e-Sports hit in Korea.
Was Blizzard hell bent on destroying Brood War? Of course not. They wanted what's best for themselves. Sometimes, what's best for Blizzard isn't the best for Brood War. Sometimes, what's best for Blizzard is terrible for Brood War. If the Brood War community can't even protest the times Blizzard actively hurts their favourite game without being seen as paranoid or biased, then why do we have this site in the first place?
Doesn't even the slightest possibility of something like the past happening again terrify you? You can act unbiased and nonchalant all you want, but I've heard nothing but blase, belittling comments from those who seemed to be more worried about sounding positive and not being biased, rather than providing hard concrete facts that smashes the fearmongers from the other side. Not only would I love to be wrong, I'd be willing to be astronomically wrong about the past so that I don't have to have a panic attack everytime Blizzard gets a little too cosy with the Brood War scene. Please. Put me out of my misery and put me in my place.
On July 08 2017 21:32 Kadungon wrote: No sane person is ever going to watch two Blizzard AI's play vs each other. Without the players, there is zero value. ... The IP they wanted to claim, all the added value was created by the players, not Blizzard.
so true. It's the players people want to watch. Blizz created the game they are playing in, sure, but the final balance push came from the community by way of maps, and the eyeballs come to see what players do on them. Blizz claiming they have final say over a tournament running their program is crazy to me, like if Microsoft were to assert the same because it was running on Windows.
I thought this was all in the past, with SC2's performance and longevity compared to BW able to argue against Blizz's method even after they "won" but here we go again
I thought this was all in the past, with SC2's performance and longevity compared to BW able to argue against Blizz's method even after they "won" but here we go again
Nope, if you read this thread thoroughly you will see there are still delusional people who argue that "clearly what Blizzard is doing is good because look at the financial success and player numbers of all their games". Yeah, they are successful because of Blizzard's reputation in the gaming industry (which was mostly built on the great games of yesteryear like BW, Warcraft RTS and the first few iterations of WoW) and their level of polish and production value which attracts millions of casuals. That does not mean that their balance and design choices with respect to the competitive aspects of their games are correct or good. Just because they can attract large numbers of casual players to some of their games, and also fanatics who instantly love anything Blizzard, does not mean that everything they're doing is automatically correct and good.
Look at SC2. Blizzard said that WoL sold 5 million copies in 2010. At the height of BL infestor in 2012, the playerbase was down to 200k across all servers combined, as estimated by those community ladder rank sites. And only at such abyssal lows did Blizzard finally decide "hey maybe we should add some kind of social element like people have been bugging us for two years, you know, the ones that all our old games had".
I don't understand how it's possible to defend this. Sure, 200k is more than almost any other game, but it's also painfully obvious that were it not for their blunders we could have retained more people.
On July 07 2017 22:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Toi be fair though there did seem to be a definate undercurrent of trying to sink BW to push SC2 sales in the phrasing and actions of Blizzard. Now of course the opposite will be true, but without the sinking of SC2.
again: citation, please (I'm still waiting for the actual videos/text on the previous quotes too)
It's your choice to disbelieve the collective memory of several people who watched a video. I'm not going to hunt down the entire OSL finals video. The games are easy to find, but the whole broadcast less so. If you feel better thinking that it didn't happen, go for it.
no, I'm wondering if an innocuous quote was misinterpreted and twisted by a biased community, as seems to be the norm around here
I don't think the Blizzard message can be found anymore as they wisely decided to not include it in the official game VODs. But the reactions in the LP-thread, including yours are not positive.
On July 07 2017 22:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Toi be fair though there did seem to be a definate undercurrent of trying to sink BW to push SC2 sales in the phrasing and actions of Blizzard. Now of course the opposite will be true, but without the sinking of SC2.
again: citation, please (I'm still waiting for the actual videos/text on the previous quotes too)
It's your choice to disbelieve the collective memory of several people who watched a video. I'm not going to hunt down the entire OSL finals video. The games are easy to find, but the whole broadcast less so. If you feel better thinking that it didn't happen, go for it.
no, I'm wondering if an innocuous quote was misinterpreted and twisted by a biased community, as seems to be the norm around here
Are you sure you are totally free from bias yourself? How much do you know for a fact, that comes completely without an agenda, for you to so casually put aside all these comments on the thread. Please do educate me, and correct me if I'm wrong on the things I write below:
Timeline of events.
April 2010: Negotiations between Blizzard and KeSPA fail.
October 2010: Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague starts without Blizzard's consent, soon afterwards, MBC Game and Ongament starts their individual leagues without Blizzard's consent.
November 2010: Blizzard sues MBC Game, and Ongamenet.
October 2010: KeSPA releases a statement outlining the costs of running professional Brood War, and how Blizzard's demands will make the entire scene financially unviable. KeSPA ends their statement with how "the professional Brood War scene is need more growth and extra investment".
July 2011: Kim Joon Ho, the newly appointed head of KeSPA is quoted as saying "We are looking forward to renewal of the e-Sports scene with new titles like Starcraft 2, rather than the old method of relying on Brood War".
November 2011: SK Planet 2011/2012 ProLeague starts with a change in format, and there are rumours of this being the last of the Brood War ProLeague. If tales from Afreeca streams are to be believed, players were told in advance that they would no longer play Brood War after this season of the ProLeague.
May 2012: KeSPA announces the hybrid ProLeague of Brood War and Starcraft 2, with the ProLeague switching to Starcraft 2 completely after that.
So before Blizzard kicked their asses in the courtroom, KeSPA was all about the growth of professional Brood War, and even were willing to take hefty legal battles just for the right to continue the scene, yet as soon as they came to the realization that there was no winning against Blizzard under these circumstances, they suddenly see the light, and claim that the future of e-Sports lies with Stacraft 2, not Brood War. Just like that lovely montage done by Mr. Morhaime, who was kind enough to let the fans know what's what.
Quite a bold business choice for KeSPA if Blizzard had absolutely zero say on these changes. League of Legends had yet to be huge in Korea, and professional Brood War was basically the only financially viable professional e-Sports title for years on end, and they were suddenly going to replace all that with a gaming title that was flopping in sales in Korea. I guess Kim Joon Ho was super confident that a game that was played in the PC Bangs less than Special Force was going to become the next big e-Sports hit in Korea.
Was Blizzard hell bent on destroying Brood War? Of course not. They wanted what's best for themselves. Sometimes, what's best for Blizzard isn't the best for Brood War. Sometimes, what's best for Blizzard is terrible for Brood War. If the Brood War community can't even protest the times Blizzard actively hurts their favourite game without being seen as paranoid or biased, then why do we have this site in the first place?
Doesn't even the slightest possibility of something like the past happening again terrify you? You can act unbiased and nonchalant all you want, but I've heard nothing but blase, belittling comments from those who seemed to be more worried about sounding positive and not being biased, rather than providing hard concrete facts that smashes the fearmongers from the other side. Not only would I love to be wrong, I'd be willing to be astronomically wrong about the past so that I don't have to have a panic attack everytime Blizzard gets a little too cosy with the Brood War scene. Please. Put me out of my misery and put me in my place.
While I still don't agree with being needlessly pessimistic about SC:Remaster (as most things indicate they've been listening to the community and are being pretty generous in some aspects like free 1.18, low price, zero change to gameplay etc.), I did kind of forget the big attitude they had around 2010-2012. The chat channel stuff, Diablo 3's PR in general, and the stuff you've posted as well.
It's worth noting that at some point (around lotv?) Blizzard seemingly smartened up and has been pretty good about keeping a good relationship with the community like with David Kim's weekly updates he did for a while, a lot of the features they finally put in LOTV etc. Overwatch seems to get really good support as well.
On July 07 2017 22:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Toi be fair though there did seem to be a definate undercurrent of trying to sink BW to push SC2 sales in the phrasing and actions of Blizzard. Now of course the opposite will be true, but without the sinking of SC2.
again: citation, please (I'm still waiting for the actual videos/text on the previous quotes too)
It's your choice to disbelieve the collective memory of several people who watched a video. I'm not going to hunt down the entire OSL finals video. The games are easy to find, but the whole broadcast less so. If you feel better thinking that it didn't happen, go for it.
no, I'm wondering if an innocuous quote was misinterpreted and twisted by a biased community, as seems to be the norm around here
Are you sure you are totally free from bias yourself? How much do you know for a fact, that comes completely without an agenda, for you to so casually put aside all these comments on the thread. Please do educate me, and correct me if I'm wrong on the things I write below:
Timeline of events.
April 2010: Negotiations between Blizzard and KeSPA fail.
October 2010: Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague starts without Blizzard's consent, soon afterwards, MBC Game and Ongament starts their individual leagues without Blizzard's consent.
November 2010: Blizzard sues MBC Game, and Ongamenet.
October 2010: KeSPA releases a statement outlining the costs of running professional Brood War, and how Blizzard's demands will make the entire scene financially unviable. KeSPA ends their statement with how "the professional Brood War scene is need more growth and extra investment".
July 2011: Kim Joon Ho, the newly appointed head of KeSPA is quoted as saying "We are looking forward to renewal of the e-Sports scene with new titles like Starcraft 2, rather than the old method of relying on Brood War".
November 2011: SK Planet 2011/2012 ProLeague starts with a change in format, and there are rumours of this being the last of the Brood War ProLeague. If tales from Afreeca streams are to be believed, players were told in advance that they would no longer play Brood War after this season of the ProLeague.
May 2012: KeSPA announces the hybrid ProLeague of Brood War and Starcraft 2, with the ProLeague switching to Starcraft 2 completely after that.
So before Blizzard kicked their asses in the courtroom, KeSPA was all about the growth of professional Brood War, and even were willing to take hefty legal battles just for the right to continue the scene, yet as soon as they came to the realization that there was no winning against Blizzard under these circumstances, they suddenly see the light, and claim that the future of e-Sports lies with Stacraft 2, not Brood War. Just like that lovely montage done by Mr. Morhaime, who was kind enough to let the fans know what's what.
Quite a bold business choice for KeSPA if Blizzard had absolutely zero say on these changes. League of Legends had yet to be huge in Korea, and professional Brood War was basically the only financially viable professional e-Sports title for years on end, and they were suddenly going to replace all that with a gaming title that was flopping in sales in Korea. I guess Kim Joon Ho was super confident that a game that was played in the PC Bangs less than Special Force was going to become the next big e-Sports hit in Korea.
Was Blizzard hell bent on destroying Brood War? Of course not. They wanted what's best for themselves. Sometimes, what's best for Blizzard isn't the best for Brood War. Sometimes, what's best for Blizzard is terrible for Brood War. If the Brood War community can't even protest the times Blizzard actively hurts their favourite game without being seen as paranoid or biased, then why do we have this site in the first place?
Doesn't even the slightest possibility of something like the past happening again terrify you? You can act unbiased and nonchalant all you want, but I've heard nothing but blase, belittling comments from those who seemed to be more worried about sounding positive and not being biased, rather than providing hard concrete facts that smashes the fearmongers from the other side. Not only would I love to be wrong, I'd be willing to be astronomically wrong about the past so that I don't have to have a panic attack everytime Blizzard gets a little too cosy with the Brood War scene. Please. Put me out of my misery and put me in my place.
While I still don't agree with being needlessly pessimistic about SC:Remaster (as most things indicate they've been listening to the community and are being pretty generous in some aspects like free 1.18, low price, zero change to gameplay etc.), I did kind of forget the big attitude they had around 2010-2012. The chat channel stuff, Diablo 3's PR in general, and the stuff you've posted as well.
It's worth noting that at some point (around lotv?) Blizzard seemingly smartened up and has been pretty good about keeping a good relationship with the community like with David Kim's weekly updates he did for a while, a lot of the features they finally put in LOTV etc. Overwatch seems to get really good support as well.
I agree very much with Overwatch and how their development team has handled community interactions. It honestly feels like two different companies sometimes, when I see how overwatch started off and continually improved it's relationship with it's base, as opposed to the shit show that occured with SC2, and various things we're still seeing now with the ATB league.
Although at the very least, the SC:R team proper seems responsive and dedicated to making a game that we appreciate. No team is perfect, but if that trend continues, I'd say I'll at least be pleased. Now I can't remember how big the SC:R team is, but if they employed a community manager that does his job as well as Jeff Kaplan, I'd feel very good about Blizzard's involvement with the SC e-sports scene.
But unfortunately, while Overwatch was given a lot of attention since it's inception, the fact that Blizzard has been so hot and cold with BW has been nothing sort of infuriating for most people, and if they had just picked some sort of consistent plan, for involvement or not, I doubt we would be here right now.
EPT
