EPTWhy isn't Matchmaking free anymore? - Page 14
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Blue post on the matter: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/starcraft/topic/20757485677 | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
He didn't even link to the more incriminating post, in which Waxangel complains about Blizz "pimping" SCII. www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/350009-osl-ro4-jangbi-vs-zero?page=96#1917 Seems like at that point his views were more in line with the community average. On July 09 2017 04:38 Dangermousecatdog wrote: There's something really wrong when waxangel a person who appears to have a relationship with blizzard is acting like a blizzard hired PR man, just shooting off his "citation needed" at a broadly percieved community belief. We know he is biased as fuck, but it'll be nice if he had some journalistic integrity? I don't even blame him, or anyone, really. It's just good to understand motivation. I don't think he's shilling deliberately, but if you do have a relationship with Blizzard (a) you're always going to see the "good side," because that's what Blizzard will present, and (b) there are certain things you can't say to jeopardize that relationship. So Waxangel was annoyed like other BW fans, but now is defending Blizzard. And it all makes sense, and it's all fine. Because my entire argument is that Blizzard's motivation is what leads them to make the decisions they do, and that motivation is primarily profit. I don't think Blizzard hates BW. But I do think the community should criticize what deserves to be criticized, like the cancelling of a tournament because of an imminent release. Personally, I could give two shits about $15. Most BW fans at this point are adults with incomes. Edit: The same goes for KeSPA, OGN, MBC, GOM, Afreeca, etc. Their bottom line matters, even if it's not ALL that matters. Obviously many of the people working for such organizations do have a passion too. | ||
Waxangel
United States33699 Posts
On July 08 2017 15:25 Letmelose wrote: Was Blizzard hell bent on destroying Brood War? Of course not. They wanted what's best for themselves. Sometimes, what's best for Blizzard isn't the best for Brood War. Sometimes, what's best for Blizzard is terrible for Brood War. That's all I really want people to understand, and so the level of understanding is higher than "fuck Blizzard for killing Brood War." When I see people post about KeSPA-Blizzard relations on TL, I see a lot of misinformation used to fuel a self-reinforcing, hyper-negative attitude. [On that note, thanks for providing an actually decent timeline for anyone who wants to check it out. I'd probably add that Blizzard took note of KeSPA starting to infringe on IP rights in 2007]. If my tone got bad... well I'm sorry to people like you who have researched the facts and tried to look at what motivations from both sides have led to the current situation. To everyone else, who can't be bothered to look at this situation with any more nuance, we can continue to insult each other. | ||
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Kadungon
41 Posts
It is not your tone. It is your substance. You should know better. You used to know better. And we understand very well why you take the position you do. It is a very rational one. You are dependent on the success of Blizzard. You do not have the option of just walking away and doing something else with your life. We have. We just say it as we see it. You say what is smart to say as TL staff. We know so so many former SC BW people disliked SC2. Yet, we never saw them come out and bluntly admit it. I understand perfectly well why. And I know you do to. Whether you are ready to admit it or not; that doesn't matter. And maybe the attitude of people who comment on Kespa vs Blizzard is actually hyper-positive, and yours is hyper-negative. Why the framing? No one said Blizzard is trying to kill SC BW out of hate. People only point out that a combination of their corporate attitude and their incompetence will kill SC BW. They should just release the source code and leave us alone. SC:R has a high risk of damaging the SC BW scene. Yes, it will create a short boom. But there will then also be a bust. SC BW will never be as popular in the west as SC2 was for a short period. SC:R or not. Please, just let SC BW slowly die, over a period of who knows, 5 decades. We do not need new players, new influx, new graphics. We do not need Blizzard to interfere, and force everything to follow their 'master plan'. We do nt need their booms and busts. We do not need their 'improvements'. We just need Blizzard to leave us alone. SC BW competitive scene has always been what it is because Blizzard ignored us. Ever since they refused to change the ladder speed to fastest, they have been a burden to the community. But managed to flourish despite that, because they forgot about us. That has been the blessing that made competitive SC BW in Korea possible; Blizzard forgetting about SC BW. And even with Blizzard returning to SC BW because of SC2; no one at Blizzard understands the basic principles of a competitive RTS. No one. And even if a few did, they would have no influence. | ||
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upro)wraith
Israel64 Posts
On July 09 2017 06:23 Kadungon wrote: Oh, cut the bullshit already. Your understanding isn't "higher", like you say. And I am pretty sure you do not even falsely believe that. You are just using that as a rhetorical device. It is not your tone. It is your substance. You should know better. You used to know better. And we understand very well why you take the position you do. It is a very rational one. You are dependent on the success of Blizzard. You do not have the option of just walking away and doing something else with your life. We have. We just say it as we see it. You say what is smart to say as TL staff. We know so so many former SC BW people disliked SC2. Yet, we never saw them come out and bluntly admit it. I understand perfectly well why. And I know you do to. Whether you are ready to admit it or not; that doesn't matter. And maybe the attitude of people who comment on Kespa vs Blizzard is actually hyper-positive, and yours is hyper-negative. Why the framing? No one said Blizzard is trying to kill SC BW out of hate. People only point out that a combination of their corporate attitude and their incompetence will kill SC BW. They should just release the source code and leave us alone. SC:R has a high risk of damaging the SC BW scene. Yes, it will create a short boom. But there will then also be a bust. SC BW will never be as popular in the west as SC2 was for a short period. SC:R or not. Please, just let SC BW slowly die, over a period of who knows, 5 decades. We do not need new players, new influx, new graphics. We do not need Blizzard to interfere, and force everything to follow their 'master plan'. We do nt need their booms and busts. We do not need their 'improvements'. We just need Blizzard to leave us alone. SC BW competitive scene has always been what it is because Blizzard ignored us. Ever since they refused to change the ladder speed to fastest, they have been a burden to the community. But managed to flourish despite that, because they forgot about us. That has been the blessing that made competitive SC BW in Korea possible; Blizzard forgetting about SC BW. And even with Blizzard returning to SC BW because of SC2; no one at Blizzard understands the basic principles of a competitive RTS. No one. And even if a few did, they would have no influence. It's a gift from blizzard to the BW community! they will have to pay 15$ tho... | ||
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Savant
United States379 Posts
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aFF]ZuluNAtion[
Poland173 Posts
On July 09 2017 16:43 Savant wrote: I'd pay $100. A year ago brood war remastered was next to dating Scarlett Johansson on my dream list Same, but i didnt belive Blizz will do Remaster, Scarlett dating was way more likely. | ||
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Pippah
Denmark356 Posts
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DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
On July 08 2017 15:25 Letmelose wrote: Are you sure you are totally free from bias yourself? How much do you know for a fact, that comes completely without an agenda, for you to so casually put aside all these comments on the thread. Please do educate me, and correct me if I'm wrong on the things I write below: Timeline of events. April 2010: Negotiations between Blizzard and KeSPA fail. + Show Spoiler + http://www.thisisgame.com/webzine/news/nboard/4/?n=15870 October 2010: Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague starts without Blizzard's consent, soon afterwards, MBC Game and Ongament starts their individual leagues without Blizzard's consent. November 2010: Blizzard sues MBC Game, and Ongamenet. + Show Spoiler + http://www.thisisgame.com/webzine/news/nboard/4/?n=16255 + Show Spoiler + http://www.thisisgame.com/webzine/news/rboard/1/?n=28063 October 2010: KeSPA releases a statement outlining the costs of running professional Brood War, and how Blizzard's demands will make the entire scene financially unviable. KeSPA ends their statement with how "the professional Brood War scene is need more growth and extra investment". + Show Spoiler + https://www.playxp.com/sc2/news/view.php?article_id=2255932 May 2011: Negotiations are successful. http://www.thisisgame.com/webzine/news/nboard/4/?sw=p9cl6prm6espwj&sdt=2011-06-05&page=5&n=23186 July 2011: Kim Joon Ho, the newly appointed head of KeSPA is quoted as saying "We are looking forward to renewal of the e-Sports scene with new titles like Starcraft 2, rather than the old method of relying on Brood War". + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/closed-threads/241547-rumor-blizzard-secretly-invites-kespa-for-a-deal + Show Spoiler + http://m.blog.naver.com/hellshuu/50143648268 November 2011: SK Planet 2011/2012 ProLeague starts with a change in format, and there are rumours of this being the last of the Brood War ProLeague. If tales from Afreeca streams are to be believed, players were told in advance that they would no longer play Brood War after this season of the ProLeague. May 2012: KeSPA announces the hybrid ProLeague of Brood War and Starcraft 2, with the ProLeague switching to Starcraft 2 completely after that. + Show Spoiler + http://www.thisisgame.com/esports/nboard/162/?sf=subject&sw=%ED%94%84%EB%A1%9C%EB%A6%AC%EA%B7%B8&sdt=2012-08-06&n=33091 So before Blizzard kicked their asses in the courtroom, KeSPA was all about the growth of professional Brood War, and even were willing to take hefty legal battles just for the right to continue the scene, yet as soon as they came to the realization that there was no winning against Blizzard under these circumstances, they suddenly see the light, and claim that the future of e-Sports lies with Stacraft 2, not Brood War. Just like that lovely montage done by Mr. Morhaime, who was kind enough to let the fans know what's what. Quite a bold business choice for KeSPA if Blizzard had absolutely zero say on these changes. League of Legends had yet to be huge in Korea, and professional Brood War was basically the only financially viable professional e-Sports title for years on end, and they were suddenly going to replace all that with a gaming title that was flopping in sales in Korea. I guess Kim Joon Ho was super confident that a game that was played in the PC Bangs less than Special Force was going to become the next big e-Sports hit in Korea. + Show Spoiler + http://gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=7469 Was Blizzard hell bent on destroying Brood War? Of course not. They wanted what's best for themselves. Sometimes, what's best for Blizzard isn't the best for Brood War. Sometimes, what's best for Blizzard is terrible for Brood War. If the Brood War community can't even protest the times Blizzard actively hurts their favourite game without being seen as paranoid or biased, then why do we have this site in the first place? Doesn't even the slightest possibility of something like the past happening again terrify you? You can act unbiased and nonchalant all you want, but I've heard nothing but blase, belittling comments from those who seemed to be more worried about sounding positive and not being biased, rather than providing hard concrete facts that smashes the fearmongers from the other side. Not only would I love to be wrong, I'd be willing to be astronomically wrong about the past so that I don't have to have a panic attack everytime Blizzard gets a little too cosy with the Brood War scene. Please. Put me out of my misery and put me in my place. Thank you for compiling that information, it's so annoying dealing with Blizzard apologists. Sure the community sometimes seems overly dramatic when talking about the damage Blizzard can and has inflicted, but that is because a lot of it is based on fact that we all experienced when they were doing their utmost to promote SC2 to the death of BW. | ||
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JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
On July 09 2017 16:43 Savant wrote: I'd pay $100. A year ago brood war remastered was next to dating Scarlett Johansson on my dream list You never know... Maybe it is not that far-fetched for you to start dating her then  | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
On July 09 2017 18:04 aFF]ZuluNAtion[ wrote: Same, but i didnt belive Blizz will do Remaster, Scarlett dating was way more likely. u tried to ask her ? | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
On July 09 2017 06:23 Kadungon wrote: Oh, cut the bullshit already. Your understanding isn't "higher", like you say. And I am pretty sure you do not even falsely believe that. You are just using that as a rhetorical device. It is not your tone. It is your substance. You should know better. You used to know better. And we understand very well why you take the position you do. It is a very rational one. You are dependent on the success of Blizzard. You do not have the option of just walking away and doing something else with your life. We have. We just say it as we see it. You say what is smart to say as TL staff. We know so so many former SC BW people disliked SC2. Yet, we never saw them come out and bluntly admit it. I understand perfectly well why. And I know you do to. Whether you are ready to admit it or not; that doesn't matter. And maybe the attitude of people who comment on Kespa vs Blizzard is actually hyper-positive, and yours is hyper-negative. Why the framing? No one said Blizzard is trying to kill SC BW out of hate. People only point out that a combination of their corporate attitude and their incompetence will kill SC BW. They should just release the source code and leave us alone. SC:R has a high risk of damaging the SC BW scene. Yes, it will create a short boom. But there will then also be a bust. SC BW will never be as popular in the west as SC2 was for a short period. SC:R or not. Please, just let SC BW slowly die, over a period of who knows, 5 decades. We do not need new players, new influx, new graphics. We do not need Blizzard to interfere, and force everything to follow their 'master plan'. We do nt need their booms and busts. We do not need their 'improvements'. We just need Blizzard to leave us alone. SC BW competitive scene has always been what it is because Blizzard ignored us. Ever since they refused to change the ladder speed to fastest, they have been a burden to the community. But managed to flourish despite that, because they forgot about us. That has been the blessing that made competitive SC BW in Korea possible; Blizzard forgetting about SC BW. And even with Blizzard returning to SC BW because of SC2; no one at Blizzard understands the basic principles of a competitive RTS. No one. And even if a few did, they would have no influence. I won't comment on the issue with Wax, as I don't follow TL in the recent years much. But I agree with almost everything in the post. Also, not surprised this guy is banned. Most people with strong opinions get banned on TL. Sterile place. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States8089 Posts
No problem paying $15 for a remaster. | ||
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