EPTStarCraft: Remastered to be released Summer 2017 - Page 35
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
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emc
United States3088 Posts
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 13 2017 08:05 SchAmToo wrote: There's no way to not talk about it and have it up. It ruins so much of the viewing experience of SC2. People can still, and still do, study builds of pros without it. I don't agree. For me production tab is awesome. | ||
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
Terran moves out, Zerg queues up a bunch of eggs. With production tab you know it's either drones (Well they're dead now) or a bunch of Zergling/Ultras (They could defend it), without it it's now a big possibility! It builds tension and allows casters to talk over both possibilities, it creates a sense for the spectator to realize the importance of droning at good times. If a Protoss techs to DTs and Terran just got their machine shop and starts whirring. Is it siege mode? Is it mines? Mines they can defend (possibly) because they cut Acad out early. Again, the viewer now sees the possibility of both arguments immediately to go for x or y in their builds. It allow the caster to say a lot about both before the event comes to fruition. Then its the golden moment of "THEY GOT MINES!" It puts you in the protoss's point of view too. They don't know 100% what the build was either and now they get surprised because they also didn't have that information. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10673 Posts
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raff100
498 Posts
It all comes to personal taste imho | ||
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blunderfulguy
United States1415 Posts
On May 13 2017 08:54 SchAmToo wrote: To me, I think it ruins the possibility of being surprised while creating the weight of decisions in StarCraft. It teaches why someone is so good as opposed to making it so apparent via the production tab. Terran moves out, Zerg queues up a bunch of eggs. With production tab you know it's either drones (Well they're dead now) or a bunch of Zergling/Ultras (They could defend it), without it it's now a big possibility! It builds tension and allows casters to talk over both possibilities, it creates a sense for the spectator to realize the importance of droning at good times. If a Protoss techs to DTs and Terran just got their machine shop and starts whirring. Is it siege mode? Is it mines? Mines they can defend (possibly) because they cut Acad out early. Again, the viewer now sees the possibility of both arguments immediately to go for x or y in their builds. It allow the caster to say a lot about both before the event comes to fruition. Then its the golden moment of "THEY GOT MINES!" It puts you in the protoss's point of view too. They don't know 100% what the build was either and now they get surprised because they also didn't have that information. If you look at Dota 2, League of Legends, Magic: the Gathering, Counter Strike, Gears of War, Halo, all of these games have all of the information you could ever know openly available to the casters as well as the viewers during the matches and this is not an issue for any of them. Heck, even in poker the audience knows 100% of the information on the table afaik. For StarCraft 2 I've always felt that it's just "one of those things" that some people (most of whom came from Brood War or Age of Empires, in my experience) don't like and they attribute their overall feelings about watching the game in larger part to the Production Tab than most do. But, an extremely large portion of the audience wants it there because it makes it more enjoyable for them, and having information like this available to the viewers of other competitive games not being an issue and instead making it better for those viewers leads me to believe that overall it's a good thing for StarCraft 2. It's not bad, it's just different than Brood War and other RTS games through the 00s. If you don't want it in Brood War, fine. It's understandable because it changes the way that people have been watching matches of the game since the end of the 90s, it's part of the game's identity, and the older, hardcore BW community wants to keep it that way, but I see no other reasons that it "cannot be changed no matter what" or at least have the option there for the players, viewers and organizations that happen to want it. With the Remaster targeting the newer generations of RTS players who barely know anything about the game, the option to use a Production Tab, I believe, would actually be phenomenal and help more people eventually become hardcore fans. As far as showing where the player cameras are, it adds to the "wow factor" of watching highly skilled professional players, though I don't think that it's nearly as interesting, readable, or as important as the Production Tab, so other than the little bit of clutter it adds to the mini map not being great I'm pretty neutral. I'd personally like the option there just so you could click a button and go "damn, look at how good these players are", but that's about all I think anyone would get out of it. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4334 Posts
https://soundcloud.com/starcraft-ii-official/starcraft-remastered-terran-01 | ||
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
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ReketSomething
United States6012 Posts
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
On May 13 2017 13:01 bduddy wrote: There's no legitimate reason to want "surprise" other than that it's always been that way. No legitimate sport tries to "surprise" viewers with what happens next. I like that someone else mentioned poker... the hole card camera in poker, removing the element of surprise, revolutionized TV coverage and led to a huge boom in interest and viewership. Like many other things, some people here can't see past the way it's always been... I just gave you tons of legitimate reasons in my post, but i guess you ignored them? | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On May 13 2017 08:54 SchAmToo wrote: To me, I think it ruins the possibility of being surprised while creating the weight of decisions in StarCraft. It teaches why someone is so good as opposed to making it so apparent via the production tab. Terran moves out, Zerg queues up a bunch of eggs. With production tab you know it's either drones (Well they're dead now) or a bunch of Zergling/Ultras (They could defend it), without it it's now a big possibility! It builds tension and allows casters to talk over both possibilities, it creates a sense for the spectator to realize the importance of droning at good times. If a Protoss techs to DTs and Terran just got their machine shop and starts whirring. Is it siege mode? Is it mines? Mines they can defend (possibly) because they cut Acad out early. Again, the viewer now sees the possibility of both arguments immediately to go for x or y in their builds. It allow the caster to say a lot about both before the event comes to fruition. Then its the golden moment of "THEY GOT MINES!" It puts you in the protoss's point of view too. They don't know 100% what the build was either and now they get surprised because they also didn't have that information. Personally I find that it's the other way around. I find that the production tab in sc2 gives more depth and allows the viewers to understand more of the what is going on in the game. Some starts teching to banshees or something, and now you look at how the terran is trying to stop the zerg from scouting. In your example with the drones, the commentary would be like "ohh, he spent all his larva on drones JUST before seeing the push! This will be difficult!", or "he INSTANTLY builds a bunch lings and ultras to answer attack". I don't know... I guess it's a matter of preference in the end. I myself like to get as close as I can to understand what is going on in the head of the players, and I feel the production tab really helps with that. Others maybe just want to sit back and have the game flow over them, and then maybe the production tab can detract from that experience to some extent. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On May 13 2017 13:01 bduddy wrote: If theres no legitimate reason to prefer surprise, the hidden implication in that is that surprise can not and does not emotionally impact the experience of an event. Which is ridiculous.There's no legitimate reason to want "surprise" other than that it's always been that way. No legitimate sport tries to "surprise" viewers with what happens next. I like that someone else mentioned poker... the hole card camera in poker, removing the element of surprise, revolutionized TV coverage and led to a huge boom in interest and viewership. Like many other things, some people here can't see past the way it's always been... | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On May 13 2017 07:43 SchAmToo wrote: God I hope they never add a production tab. No worse mistake in SC2 casting than everyone relying on the production tab. It removes so much excitement from the storyline of a game. Dont worry, the Brood War community is gonna add that | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On May 13 2017 13:01 bduddy wrote: No legitimate sport tries to "surprise" viewers with what happens next. Football broadcasts don't show the offensive and defensive plays that have been called for each team. NBA broadcasts don't have a mic on the coach so that viewers know the play coming out of a 4th quarter timeout. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On May 13 2017 16:37 gngfn wrote: Football broadcasts don't show the offensive and defensive plays that have been called for each team. NBA broadcasts don't have a mic on the coach so that viewers know the play coming out of a 4th quarter timeout. I feel like there's more to those decisions to limit information in sports broadcasts than just building surprise. They at least tend to show a lot more information in replays, in which case I think it's acceptable to at least have observer tools available in BW: Remastered replays. A good observer doesn't need to rely on observer tools anyways, and since there are so few dedicated observers compared to players and viewers, popular opinion could still sway them to limit use of any observer tools. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On May 13 2017 16:37 gngfn wrote: Football broadcasts don't show the offensive and defensive plays that have been called for each team. NBA broadcasts don't have a mic on the coach so that viewers know the play coming out of a 4th quarter timeout. In some cases the do actually stuff a boom mic over the teams strat talk in breaks. I remember they did it in handboll. The reason they don't do it in NBA (not that I watch it) is probably a matter of the team not wanting the strats go live on TV so the other team can hear it.  | ||
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
On May 13 2017 13:01 bduddy wrote: I like that someone else mentioned poker... the hole card camera in poker, removing the element of surprise, revolutionized TV coverage and led to a huge boom in interest and viewership. Like many other things, some people here can't see past the way it's always been... Actually, poker is a great example of surprise making the sport more interesting for the viewers. While the hole cards are shown to the audience, the community cards are not. Go watch any high tension poker show and imagine how much less exciting it would be if you would know in advance what the flop, turn and river cards were going to be. Surprises drive excitement, and excitement is key for enjoyment. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On May 13 2017 17:43 Sr18 wrote: Actually, poker is a great example of surprise making the sport more interesting for the viewers. While the hole cards are shown to the audience, the community cards are not. Go watch any high tension poker show and imagine how much less exciting it would be if you would know in advance what the flop, turn and river cards were going to be. Surprises drive excitement, and excitement is key for enjoyment. I want to understand how the players think. Why they do what they do. I think that is the role of the commnetators, explaining what is going on in the players head. For that you need to know what cards they have on their hand, I do not need to know what cards are on the board. | ||
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