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On May 11 2017 05:36 NerO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 05:17 -Archangel- wrote:On May 11 2017 05:05 NerO wrote:On May 11 2017 04:58 -Archangel- wrote:On May 11 2017 04:27 Filco wrote:On May 11 2017 03:58 -Archangel- wrote:On May 11 2017 03:36 Disregard wrote:On May 11 2017 03:09 WeddingEpisode wrote:
So you still have to touch every production facility separately to produce a unit from it? yes, honestly it's one of those features that balances the game that Blizzard probably never thought about back then. It is also a bad way to balance the game. No, you need skill, that's all. And you need skill in lots of other stupider ways (like lets make it so you cannot just click the building and press a hotkey but need to press another hotkey first or 1000 different bad ways to create bad skill checks). It is just another artificial barrier that does not need to be. Skill can be found in other ways. And how did that work out for SC2 long term with Blizzard pumping Millions of cash into the pro scene?  It is a huge stretch to blame problems of sc2 on a single feature called Multiple building selection. You're right, custom hotkeys,uncapped unit grouping, and numerous WoW/LoL in game spells also contributed to the failing SC2 pro scene.
I'd say the improved unit pathing (making units clump up way more) and high damage (particularly on AoE) had a bigger detrimental effect on the game. That's not to say all the other factors aren't a part of it all and adds up to big differences but I feel my points are mentioned too rarely.
I say this as someone who has mainly played SC2 and am only really about to start playing BW sometime between now and release of Remastered (meaning my points above might not carry too much weight). It's quite easy for me to see how the lack of MBS and auto-mining and other things make up for a lot of other deficiencies in the game's balance.
I will say that custom hotkeys is probably the smallest part of it and is mostly artificial difficulty. There comes a point where you should probably focus more on making sure new players like me feel more welcome without sacrificing much of the true difficulties in the game.
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51393 Posts
On May 11 2017 06:02 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Can someone explain to me why custom hotkeys would effect balance at all? If you're able to type without looking at your keyboard it seems you're unaffected by this kind of thing. And while things like the 12 unit selection limit were conscious balance decisions, as far as I know this is not how they chose hotkeys. Marine starts with M, so their hotkey is "M." Medic is C because M was taken by Marine. I don't think they made the hotkey for lings "Z" because they thought it would be more balanced to give zergs that kind of hotkey closer to their resting position.
I mean would anyone think they lost a ZvZ because their opponent cheated by pressing V for their Overlords instead of O? It just seems like such an easy way to ease both returning and new players into BW whilst having at most a minuscule effect on balance.
it doesn't. it's all a QoL thing. you aren't going to be able to beat flash overnight if you have superior key bindings to him.
anyway, the option is available to all users so i don't see what the problem is.
even when i was playing the PTR, i tried experimenting with E for Probe and E for Pylon and after a few games I just had to switch back to P, it's just way too hard to learn. stuff like v for overlord is obviously useful and not hard to re-learn though.
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On May 11 2017 05:41 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 05:21 GGzerG wrote:
MBS would completely break the balance of BW, anyone who thinks otherwise clearly doesn't understand the game well enough... It would influence balance yes and some other things can be rebalanced to counter it. Maybe limit it to 12 buildings like units are :D But lack of this feature alone will prevent SC Remastered to become popular in the West. I am really not sure what is the end goal of Blizzard with this Remastered. Is it just doing it because they are so rich and they can?
By popular in the West, do you mean : shortlived and played by whining babies always begging blizzard fo patches, before they move on to something else? Then let it not be "popular in the West". But you know what? It will be popular. Because bw is perfect, and every single person who plays it competitively long enough to master it will tell you that it is. Maybe that's what you need to do my friend : go on the battlefield and train your ass off. Multiplayer in bw all comes down to this question : "do you have what it takes?". I say that with kindness, and not aggressiveness. It's about pain and sweat. Victories are deserved, earned. They are made in blood. It's a sport man. A game against yourself before it is against your opponent. If you want it easier, it's totaly fine : enjoy sc2 and glhf my friend.
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Custom hotkeys aren't game-changing, maybe for specific situations such manner pylons might be easier to abuse but pro-gamers are so used to the vanilla keys.
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On May 11 2017 07:12 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 06:02 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Can someone explain to me why custom hotkeys would effect balance at all? If you're able to type without looking at your keyboard it seems you're unaffected by this kind of thing. And while things like the 12 unit selection limit were conscious balance decisions, as far as I know this is not how they chose hotkeys. Marine starts with M, so their hotkey is "M." Medic is C because M was taken by Marine. I don't think they made the hotkey for lings "Z" because they thought it would be more balanced to give zergs that kind of hotkey closer to their resting position.
I mean would anyone think they lost a ZvZ because their opponent cheated by pressing V for their Overlords instead of O? It just seems like such an easy way to ease both returning and new players into BW whilst having at most a minuscule effect on balance. it doesn't. it's all a QoL thing. you aren't going to be able to beat flash overnight if you have superior key bindings to him. anyway, the option is available to all users so i don't see what the problem is. even when i was playing the PTR, i tried experimenting with E for Probe and E for Pylon and after a few games I just had to switch back to P, it's just way too hard to learn. stuff like v for overlord is obviously useful and not hard to re-learn though.
That is how you explain it to yourself. I can easily say that BW having MBS is not going to let you beat Flash overnight (or probably ever).
Everyone draws that line somewhere else.
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I was referring to custom hotkeys,single building selection and 12 units limit are untouchable features,as stated by the devs.
For people who have not understand it yet,SCremaster doesn't want to appeal to the western scene,this is 100% made for Koreans.If some foreigners come to BW than it will obviously be better, but if they don't,the remastered will be a success based on KR sales alone.
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fcuk this thing right in the pussy
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On May 11 2017 07:50 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 07:12 GTR wrote:On May 11 2017 06:02 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Can someone explain to me why custom hotkeys would effect balance at all? If you're able to type without looking at your keyboard it seems you're unaffected by this kind of thing. And while things like the 12 unit selection limit were conscious balance decisions, as far as I know this is not how they chose hotkeys. Marine starts with M, so their hotkey is "M." Medic is C because M was taken by Marine. I don't think they made the hotkey for lings "Z" because they thought it would be more balanced to give zergs that kind of hotkey closer to their resting position.
I mean would anyone think they lost a ZvZ because their opponent cheated by pressing V for their Overlords instead of O? It just seems like such an easy way to ease both returning and new players into BW whilst having at most a minuscule effect on balance. it doesn't. it's all a QoL thing. you aren't going to be able to beat flash overnight if you have superior key bindings to him. anyway, the option is available to all users so i don't see what the problem is. even when i was playing the PTR, i tried experimenting with E for Probe and E for Pylon and after a few games I just had to switch back to P, it's just way too hard to learn. stuff like v for overlord is obviously useful and not hard to re-learn though. That is how you explain it to yourself. I can easily say that BW having MBS is not going to let you beat Flash overnight (or probably ever). Everyone draws that line somewhere else.
Custom hotkeys are not a big deal at all. I can never understand why people are so against it lol. It's not going to make one person better and it's not going to make a player win or lose because they changed their hotkeys.
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On May 11 2017 07:50 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 07:12 GTR wrote:On May 11 2017 06:02 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Can someone explain to me why custom hotkeys would effect balance at all? If you're able to type without looking at your keyboard it seems you're unaffected by this kind of thing. And while things like the 12 unit selection limit were conscious balance decisions, as far as I know this is not how they chose hotkeys. Marine starts with M, so their hotkey is "M." Medic is C because M was taken by Marine. I don't think they made the hotkey for lings "Z" because they thought it would be more balanced to give zergs that kind of hotkey closer to their resting position.
I mean would anyone think they lost a ZvZ because their opponent cheated by pressing V for their Overlords instead of O? It just seems like such an easy way to ease both returning and new players into BW whilst having at most a minuscule effect on balance. it doesn't. it's all a QoL thing. you aren't going to be able to beat flash overnight if you have superior key bindings to him. anyway, the option is available to all users so i don't see what the problem is. even when i was playing the PTR, i tried experimenting with E for Probe and E for Pylon and after a few games I just had to switch back to P, it's just way too hard to learn. stuff like v for overlord is obviously useful and not hard to re-learn though. That is how you explain it to yourself. I can easily say that BW having MBS is not going to let you beat Flash overnight (or probably ever). Everyone draws that line somewhere else.
I'm not sure those things are analogous. Changing keybinds would be like switching keys around on a piano. The notes and the mechanism for playing them are the same, all that changes are the locations of the keys that trigger them. Something like MBS would be like adding effects to the piano, at which point it becomes a different instrument entirely. If we were talking about making StarCraft 3 it would be a great discussion, but this is being billed explicitly as a faithful remaster of the original game, so I feel like the devs are rightly being very light-handed with any changes.
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On May 11 2017 05:52 eviltomahawk wrote:
I think it's possible to design and balance a game around MBS, unlimited unit selection, auto-mine, and smart casting even though SC2 didn't completely succeed in that regard. IMO, most of its problems stemmed from unit design and economy design. However, that's a discussion for another game and not for BW, which should mostly remain as is.
+1 totally agree, SC2 problem is also pathing mechanics, max fluid & concentrated = less tactics
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United States4883 Posts
There's tons of evidence from SC2 that optimal hotkey setups deliver minor improvements but do not vastly improve the skill level of the player. The easiest example is TheCore by Jakatak. While I commend him for the long hours of work put into this project, it simply does not greatly improve the skill of the player. No one has gone from Bronze to GM solely due to a better hotkey layout, and no pro except some B tier foreigner Zerg used it (I can't remember exactly who, but he did not improve by much).
The only people who are even remotely affected by custom keybinds are 1) people who disabilities who physically can't jump around the keyboard, and 2) very low level players who are unable to shift positions properly. While there is some debate that a small QoL change raises the skill floor even by a small amount and thus reduces the diversity of skill in the game, we have historically seen that low level SC2 players have benefited only slightly from more optimal hotkey setups; the sheer difficulty of multi-tasking, basic macro, and unit control are far larger barriers than pressing the right buttons accurately every time.
Before I get pounced on for comparing everything to a different game, I personally believe that BW has far greater complexities in the areas of multi-tasking, strategic thinking, and micro and therefore is affected even less by custom hotkeys.
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On May 11 2017 10:10 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 05:52 eviltomahawk wrote:
I think it's possible to design and balance a game around MBS, unlimited unit selection, auto-mine, and smart casting even though SC2 didn't completely succeed in that regard. IMO, most of its problems stemmed from unit design and economy design. However, that's a discussion for another game and not for BW, which should mostly remain as is. +1 totally agree, SC2 problem is also pathing mechanics, max fluid & concentrated = less tactics
Yeah, the clumping did cause pretty bad design problems, but I will admit that out of the many RTS games that I've played, SC2's pathing personally felt like one of the most comfortable to use. I wished they could have kept that comfort and convenience while fixing the clumping problem.
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Anyone else had a difficult time as a spectator with SC2? I gave up on it quickly because I just couldn't get into it with the clumping design and the heavy color saturation.
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On May 11 2017 10:30 EsportsJohn wrote:
Before I get pounced on for comparing everything to a different game, I personally believe that BW has far greater complexities in the areas of multi-tasking, strategic thinking, and micro and therefore is affected even less by custom hotkeys.
I believe something along these lines was said by Day[9] when talking about the main differences between StarCraft I and II, and why Brood War was NOT mainly a strategy game. While mechanics are not everything about it, there are so many other things that make the first StarCraft a more complex game than the second, that believing custom hotkeys will mess everything up is a very foolish idea.
The customization of hotkeys helps solving annoying and minor issues in hand positioning, finding comfort and microscopically faster commands. People used to do it all the time in WarCraft III, which already made it possible, and it was very insignificant (aside from maybe skill combos like "Nova coil" who would become much easier that way, but that doesn't apply largely to BW).
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On May 11 2017 09:48 erin[go]bragh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 07:50 -Archangel- wrote:On May 11 2017 07:12 GTR wrote:On May 11 2017 06:02 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Can someone explain to me why custom hotkeys would effect balance at all? If you're able to type without looking at your keyboard it seems you're unaffected by this kind of thing. And while things like the 12 unit selection limit were conscious balance decisions, as far as I know this is not how they chose hotkeys. Marine starts with M, so their hotkey is "M." Medic is C because M was taken by Marine. I don't think they made the hotkey for lings "Z" because they thought it would be more balanced to give zergs that kind of hotkey closer to their resting position.
I mean would anyone think they lost a ZvZ because their opponent cheated by pressing V for their Overlords instead of O? It just seems like such an easy way to ease both returning and new players into BW whilst having at most a minuscule effect on balance. it doesn't. it's all a QoL thing. you aren't going to be able to beat flash overnight if you have superior key bindings to him. anyway, the option is available to all users so i don't see what the problem is. even when i was playing the PTR, i tried experimenting with E for Probe and E for Pylon and after a few games I just had to switch back to P, it's just way too hard to learn. stuff like v for overlord is obviously useful and not hard to re-learn though. That is how you explain it to yourself. I can easily say that BW having MBS is not going to let you beat Flash overnight (or probably ever). Everyone draws that line somewhere else. I'm not sure those things are analogous. Changing keybinds would be like switching keys around on a piano. The notes and the mechanism for playing them are the same, all that changes are the locations of the keys that trigger them. Something like MBS would be like adding effects to the piano, at which point it becomes a different instrument entirely. If we were talking about making StarCraft 3 it would be a great discussion, but this is being billed explicitly as a faithful remaster of the original game, so I feel like the devs are rightly being very light-handed with any changes.
Both reduce mechanical requirement of the game by different amounts. That is all the difference between them.
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1.18 is already hated enough as is in korea for splitting fish and the ASL drama while being inferior to 1.16, if they add rebindable hotkeys it'll just be even more dead... the thing is, korea doesn't need or want "QOL" adjustments for d- players that think it's hard to hit o for overlord.. they also don't need or want input issues or a new dependency on blizzard for servers/updates when sc2 is still plagued with maphack and bnet .20. 1.18 is a charade given that we have a perfect game already in 1.16, a game that has been available for free for the past like 15+ years..
and yes, hotkeys do affect balance, how can you even argue that decreasing the mechanical difficulty of a game so dependent on mechanical proficiency wouldn't affect balance? maybe a new hotkey setup for terran would make them easy as hell to play? for instance, having all of your control groups on 1234qwert, maybe controlling 9 control groups of bio would be retardedly easy to play, making skterran the dominant build? or zerg, which routinely use all 9 control groups and vision hot keys? it's not a QOL 'improvement', it's a fundamental change to the game which is why it has been banned from ladders for those 15 years+ that 1.16 has been free..
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On May 11 2017 17:52 Endymion wrote:
and yes, hotkeys do affect balance, how can you even argue that decreasing the mechanical difficulty of a game so dependent on mechanical proficiency wouldn't affect balance? maybe a new hotkey setup for terran would make them easy as hell to play? for instance, having all of your control groups on 1234qwert, maybe controlling 9 control groups of bio would be retardedly easy to play, making skterran the dominant build? or zerg, which routinely use all 9 control groups and vision hot keys? it's not a QOL 'improvement', it's a fundamental change to the game which is why it has been banned from ladders for those 15 years+ that 1.16 has been free..
If the initial keybinding menu in the old PTR was an indicator of things to come then control groups and camera location hotkeys will remain the same. you will most likely only be able to remap unit ability and production hotkeys - which is fine by me.
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Germany3128 Posts
On May 11 2017 17:52 Endymion wrote:
1.18 is already hated enough as is in korea for splitting fish and the ASL drama while being inferior to 1.16, if they add rebindable hotkeys it'll just be even more dead... the thing is, korea doesn't need or want "QOL" adjustments for d- players that think it's hard to hit o for overlord.. they also don't need or want input issues or a new dependency on blizzard for servers/updates when sc2 is still plagued with maphack and bnet .20. 1.18 is a charade given that we have a perfect game already in 1.16, a game that has been available for free for the past like 15+ years..
and yes, hotkeys do affect balance, how can you even argue that decreasing the mechanical difficulty of a game so dependent on mechanical proficiency wouldn't affect balance? maybe a new hotkey setup for terran would make them easy as hell to play? for instance, having all of your control groups on 1234qwert, maybe controlling 9 control groups of bio would be retardedly easy to play, making skterran the dominant build? or zerg, which routinely use all 9 control groups and vision hot keys? it's not a QOL 'improvement', it's a fundamental change to the game which is why it has been banned from ladders for those 15 years+ that 1.16 has been free..
Wasn't the whole korean scene like: WTF where did our rebindable hotkeys go, when they patched them out? They want rebindable hotkeys.
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On May 11 2017 18:16 TheNewEra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 17:52 Endymion wrote:
1.18 is already hated enough as is in korea for splitting fish and the ASL drama while being inferior to 1.16, if they add rebindable hotkeys it'll just be even more dead... the thing is, korea doesn't need or want "QOL" adjustments for d- players that think it's hard to hit o for overlord.. they also don't need or want input issues or a new dependency on blizzard for servers/updates when sc2 is still plagued with maphack and bnet .20. 1.18 is a charade given that we have a perfect game already in 1.16, a game that has been available for free for the past like 15+ years..
and yes, hotkeys do affect balance, how can you even argue that decreasing the mechanical difficulty of a game so dependent on mechanical proficiency wouldn't affect balance? maybe a new hotkey setup for terran would make them easy as hell to play? for instance, having all of your control groups on 1234qwert, maybe controlling 9 control groups of bio would be retardedly easy to play, making skterran the dominant build? or zerg, which routinely use all 9 control groups and vision hot keys? it's not a QOL 'improvement', it's a fundamental change to the game which is why it has been banned from ladders for those 15 years+ that 1.16 has been free.. Wasn't the whole korean scene like: WTF where did our rebindable hotkeys go, when they patched them out? They want rebindable hotkeys.
Any source of that? I'm curious to listen to KR feedback
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Germany3128 Posts
On May 11 2017 19:17 raff100 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 18:16 TheNewEra wrote:On May 11 2017 17:52 Endymion wrote:
1.18 is already hated enough as is in korea for splitting fish and the ASL drama while being inferior to 1.16, if they add rebindable hotkeys it'll just be even more dead... the thing is, korea doesn't need or want "QOL" adjustments for d- players that think it's hard to hit o for overlord.. they also don't need or want input issues or a new dependency on blizzard for servers/updates when sc2 is still plagued with maphack and bnet .20. 1.18 is a charade given that we have a perfect game already in 1.16, a game that has been available for free for the past like 15+ years..
and yes, hotkeys do affect balance, how can you even argue that decreasing the mechanical difficulty of a game so dependent on mechanical proficiency wouldn't affect balance? maybe a new hotkey setup for terran would make them easy as hell to play? for instance, having all of your control groups on 1234qwert, maybe controlling 9 control groups of bio would be retardedly easy to play, making skterran the dominant build? or zerg, which routinely use all 9 control groups and vision hot keys? it's not a QOL 'improvement', it's a fundamental change to the game which is why it has been banned from ladders for those 15 years+ that 1.16 has been free.. Wasn't the whole korean scene like: WTF where did our rebindable hotkeys go, when they patched them out? They want rebindable hotkeys. Any source of that? I'm curious to listen to KR feedback
Gonna search for it later. I only read this myself in one of the patch threads here
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EPT
