and it doesn't surprise you that he was able to pull this off? also, goliaths deal 20 damage (explosive) with a 4 pt attack mod and have infinite range.
Let's be honest, Goliaths are a rather poor counter to Mutas; they just barely trade better than 1-for-1 due to Muta's damage type advantage (which, coincidentially is what makes it the most usable air unit in the game; most common AA is explosive with Rine, Photon Cannon and Archon for typeless - the only Concussive AA unit is Ghost which doesn't see play). Goliath has the insane range and base armor of 1 along with better upgrades, but out of the box, Goli are dealing 10 damage per hit vs. Muta's 8+2+.5 Glaive at higher rate of fire and immensely higher range, but with poorer mobility meaning only part of the Goliath army is firing at any given time. That said, it's still the best mech has available when not splashing Valks - just the fact that Goli aren't much stronger while being the "answer unit" makes the whole mech build rather vulnerable to Mutas as you need similar quantities to even stand a chance, making quick switches in Z build very hard to cope with. Z masters abuse that mercilessly, as the game so perfectly shows.
and it doesn't surprise you that he was able to pull this off? also, goliaths deal 20 damage (explosive) with a 4 pt attack mod and have infinite range.
Let's be honest, Goliaths are a rather poor counter to Mutas; they just barely trade better than 1-for-1 due to Muta's damage type advantage (which, coincidentially is what makes it the most usable air unit in the game; most common AA is explosive with Rine, Photon Cannon and Archon for typeless - the only Concussive AA unit is Ghost which doesn't see play). Goliath has the insane range and base armor of 1 along with better upgrades, but out of the box, Goli are dealing 10 damage per hit vs. Muta's 8+2+.5 Glaive at higher rate of fire and immensely higher range, but with poorer mobility meaning only part of the Goliath army is firing at any given time. That said, it's still the best mech has available when not splashing Valks - just the fact that Goli aren't much stronger while being the "answer unit" makes the whole mech build rather vulnerable to Mutas as you need similar quantities to even stand a chance, making quick switches in Z build very hard to cope with. Z masters abuse that mercilessly, as the game so perfectly shows.
and it doesn't surprise you that he was able to pull this off? also, goliaths deal 20 damage (explosive) with a 4 pt attack mod and have infinite range.
Let's be honest, Goliaths are a rather poor counter to Mutas; they just barely trade better than 1-for-1 due to Muta's damage type advantage (which, coincidentially is what makes it the most usable air unit in the game; most common AA is explosive with Rine, Photon Cannon and Archon for typeless - the only Concussive AA unit is Ghost which doesn't see play). Goliath has the insane range and base armor of 1 along with better upgrades, but out of the box, Goli are dealing 10 damage per hit vs. Muta's 8+2+.5 Glaive at higher rate of fire and immensely higher range, but with poorer mobility meaning only part of the Goliath army is firing at any given time. That said, it's still the best mech has available when not splashing Valks - just the fact that Goli aren't much stronger while being the "answer unit" makes the whole mech build rather vulnerable to Mutas as you need similar quantities to even stand a chance, making quick switches in Z build very hard to cope with. Z masters abuse that mercilessly, as the game so perfectly shows.
and it doesn't surprise you that he was able to pull this off? also, goliaths deal 20 damage (explosive) with a 4 pt attack mod and have infinite range.
Let's be honest, Goliaths are a rather poor counter to Mutas; they just barely trade better than 1-for-1 due to Muta's damage type advantage (which, coincidentially is what makes it the most usable air unit in the game; most common AA is explosive with Rine, Photon Cannon and Archon for typeless - the only Concussive AA unit is Ghost which doesn't see play). Goliath has the insane range and base armor of 1 along with better upgrades, but out of the box, Goli are dealing 10 damage per hit vs. Muta's 8+2+.5 Glaive at higher rate of fire and immensely higher range, but with poorer mobility meaning only part of the Goliath army is firing at any given time. That said, it's still the best mech has available when not splashing Valks - just the fact that Goli aren't much stronger while being the "answer unit" makes the whole mech build rather vulnerable to Mutas as you need similar quantities to even stand a chance, making quick switches in Z build very hard to cope with. Z masters abuse that mercilessly, as the game so perfectly shows.
and it doesn't surprise you that he was able to pull this off? also, goliaths deal 20 damage (explosive) with a 4 pt attack mod and have infinite range.
Let's be honest, Goliaths are a rather poor counter to Mutas; they just barely trade better than 1-for-1 due to Muta's damage type advantage (which, coincidentially is what makes it the most usable air unit in the game; most common AA is explosive with Rine, Photon Cannon and Archon for typeless - the only Concussive AA unit is Ghost which doesn't see play). Goliath has the insane range and base armor of 1 along with better upgrades, but out of the box, Goli are dealing 10 damage per hit vs. Muta's 8+2+.5 Glaive at higher rate of fire and immensely higher range, but with poorer mobility meaning only part of the Goliath army is firing at any given time. That said, it's still the best mech has available when not splashing Valks - just the fact that Goli aren't much stronger while being the "answer unit" makes the whole mech build rather vulnerable to Mutas as you need similar quantities to even stand a chance, making quick switches in Z build very hard to cope with. Z masters abuse that mercilessly, as the game so perfectly shows.
If it were this simple, no terran would ever go mech against Z....
Goliaths get stronger vs mutas with numbers and upgrades. Specifically the range upgrade and the armor/weapons upgrades are stronger for the gollies than the mutas due to how the numbers are calculated. Figure there are also going to be a lot of dead mutas before they even start attacking in a big muta vs gollie fight just due to the gollies' range. It's also very easy to 1shot kill a muta with a group of gollies.. just ctrl+click a gollie and A+click a muta.
I think you missed the point of the post though. He was just giving reasons as to why the goliaths didn't just absolutely destroy the mutas. Obviously at a certain critical mass, the gols will just have too much firepower and no muta will be able to penetrate before succumbing to the missle fire. However, if used and timed correctly, mutas can hold their own against gols.
On March 28 2009 13:50 boredcouch wrote: baileys[fOrGe]:
I think you missed the point of the post though. He was just giving reasons as to why the goliaths didn't just absolutely destroy the mutas. Obviously at a certain critical mass, the gols will just have too much firepower and no muta will be able to penetrate before succumbing to the missle fire. However, if used and timed correctly, mutas can hold their own against gols.
No, his point was that goliaths are a "rather poor counter" to mutalisks, which just isn't true. Maybe in much smaller numbers goliaths arent great, but a terran will almost never move out with that few goliaths.
Not to mention that mutalisks usefullness is inversely related to the level of upgrades, given both mutas/gols are even in upgrades.
Okay, so why did the gols perform so poorly against the mutas? Let's be real, compared to marines, valks, and science vessels, gols are much less cost effective counter for the terran user. By the way, fully upgraded gols and fully upgraded mutas would just be like a normal gol vs. a normal muta.
Doing the math: Each gol upgrade is +4 Each muta armor upgrade will increase armor by 1.
Explosive damage is halved by the small size of the muta +4/2 =+2 now. The missles are split into two, thus causing the armor upgrade to count twice. +2-1-1=0
With everything on the line, OZ's second-best player and the unlikely hero from CJ duke it out in an amazing TvT. Even if you don't like TvT(weirdos), it is absolutely worth a watch.
On March 28 2009 18:30 boredcouch wrote: sixghost:
Okay, so why did the gols perform so poorly against the mutas? Let's be real, compared to marines, valks, and science vessels, gols are much less cost effective counter for the terran user. By the way, fully upgraded gols and fully upgraded mutas would just be like a normal gol vs. a normal muta.
Doing the math: Each gol upgrade is +4 Each muta armor upgrade will increase armor by 1.
Explosive damage is halved by the small size of the muta +4/2 =+2 now. The missles are split into two, thus causing the armor upgrade to count twice. +2-1-1=0
You cant hit and run vs goliath. It's not just simple math like 1+1 = 2. SC is more complicated than that.
With everything on the line, OZ's second-best player and the unlikely hero from CJ duke it out in an amazing TvT. Even if you don't like TvT(weirdos), it is absolutely worth a watch.
skyhigh vs young was WAY more entertaining. skyhigh's harass wasn't even THAT good (although not bad by any stretch) vs spear, spear just sucked COMPLETE balls. seriously I've never seen a protoss player play worse than that in PL.
All the fucking games of the WL finals are recommended, they are up on jon747. Except for the last but second game maybe, but I can't tell you how not to watch it without spoiling, so just watch them all:D
sickest mutalisk micro ive seen ever. It wasnt close at all but just from start to end dominance. Crazy hydra vs fanta has nothing on this. Never have i seen a zerg make zvt look so imbalanced.
sickest mutalisk micro ive seen ever. It wasnt close at all but just from start to end dominance. Crazy hydra vs fanta has nothing on this. Never have i seen a zerg make zvt look so imbalanced.
Thirding this, game 2 of WL finals cannot be missed. + Show Spoiler +
Seriously, that game was so one sided and I can't figure out what Iris did wrong. He did an anti-mutal build and got absolutely murdered by all-in mutaball. Its like Jaedong had solved ZvT.
sickest mutalisk micro ive seen ever. It wasnt close at all but just from start to end dominance. Crazy hydra vs fanta has nothing on this. Never have i seen a zerg make zvt look so imbalanced.
Thirding this, game 2 of WL finals cannot be missed. + Show Spoiler +
Seriously, that game was so one sided and I can't figure out what Iris did wrong. He did an anti-mutal build and got absolutely murdered by all-in mutaball. Its like Jaedong had solved ZvT.
LOL... did I just see Jaedong micro 2 and then 3 seperate groups of mutalisks in complete unison like it was standard practice or am i just really stoned?
guys. do yourself a favor and just watch the entire winners league series. there were two games that was subpar but the rest of the games and the drama of the series itself was well worth the time it took to watch. if you absolutely must skip a game, skip these two:+ Show Spoiler +
Bisu was obviously having a grudge against terran, after his defeat in the OSL :D He was very agressive all the time (well, except against Nada), dominating performance. I enjoyed it
Bisu was obviously having a grudge against terran, after his defeat in the OSL :D He was very agressive all the time (well, except against Nada), dominating performance. I enjoyed it
Here is a VOD for this game (at Youku, from wfbrood):
EPT
