On May 31 2016 13:37 -NegativeZero- wrote:
damn it, you got me really excited for a second there
damn it, you got me really excited for a second there
If only it was foreigner "Overwatch" NZ would go instantly back to BW mapmaking, right? ^^
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outscar
2828 Posts
On May 31 2016 13:37 -NegativeZero- wrote: Show nested quote + On May 31 2016 13:08 Noah2nd wrote: On May 31 2016 13:04 BLinD-RawR wrote: so map is official for afreeca starleague? also overwatch by negativezero? Yes. It wll be use the League. And No. New map of Ragnarok[Valkyrie]. damn it, you got me really excited for a second there If only it was foreigner "Overwatch" NZ would go instantly back to BW mapmaking, right? ^^ | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
On May 31 2016 20:33 Garrl wrote: Show nested quote + On May 31 2016 17:48 kogeT wrote: I've posted this already, but how any of you can say this is a terran map? This map has an extremely difficult 3rd to be taken, 2 ramps to natural (denies rax FE), a lot of high ground that makes it super difficult to push, huge main that is difficult to be covered with turrets. All in all, this map will be a 2 base madness with huge amount of early game cheeses (you can build proxys everywhere). Only thing that I find OK for terran on that map is harassment potential both for vultures and drops. Also vs Z early game survival would be a problem (unless you cheese) every single map ever since the dawn of starcraft has looked 'like a terran map' because they see high ground and think tanks. It's more like narrow paths and cliffable main and nat that make it look hard. Terran has to worry about a backdoor attack in the early game though, so maybe it's some compensation. Also Terran in general do badly outside of a professional practice environment, so maybe they need the boost (except for Flash of course). I like this person's maps a lot usually, but this one actually looks quite amateur. Maybe there is some refinement that will happen. There's at least multiple paths for players to circumvent the Terran blob, so it's not that bad. Muta harass can be quite strong on these maps too, although I'm really thinking of TvP balance. Zerg might have a really difficult time stopping a quick m&m push since they have to cover two chokes just for their natural. | ||
Piste
6165 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49496 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19152 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1526 Posts
Actually just looking at the two-minute deco job tells a lot of how much any one cared to actually provide a thought-out high-quality map... From the potential cheesy map abuse. this comparable to Bifrost, which equals more than a decade of regress in the evolution of maps. Balance is any ones guess, but my bet is its terrible On May 31 2016 19:07 LaStScan wrote: P>Z P>T Z>T End of my speech ![]() Maybe you see something different from me, but I don't really agree with any of these. First of, has any one who does not see this as a Terran map considered that Terran can just easily take four bases through the backdoor at the left side? Most of the map is buildable, nat to nat distance is short, there are abusable cliffs all around the nat and the ridge in front of the nat, together with these other features, means terran can easily set up a contain there (well, at least it is only a semi-contain, as three entrances into the main/nat area mean one can at least sneak out through the backdoor). Also looks like a terrific map for all sorts of Vulture harassment. Maps with backdoor to the natural, especially with an open backdoor like this, have always been notoriously Z>P. I don't see how this would be the exception. It's not that taking a 3rd and 4th would be hard as Zerg, either. | ||
Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [ big ass post] + Can we agree on that the base at 3 o clock is extremly hard to take for any race, because its very open? At the same time, base at 9 o clock is also very open, but considering how close it is to both long ramp expos, this looks pretty doable. But first, lets look at the map in total to determine where we should expand. If we split the map in half and remove main/nat, we can see that the left side of the map has 5 bases to take, while the right side has 3 bases. This means if you manage to occupy the left side, you already have access to more bases compared to the other one. ![]() What about general map features around those expos? Trying to expand to the right side secures you lots of random ridges, but the bases itself are hard to secure. If you take right side corner expo as a 3rd base, your direct path to that expo is only through small ramps, while the enemy can attack you at 3 locations through big chokes. At the same time, your main can still easily be dropped from every angle and the access to your back to very open. So for terrans in tvp its a nightmare to take this corner expo.... small attack at corner expo, then recall into main and terran army is stuck at ramp.... same with zvp, defiler/ling attack at corner into doom drop. ![]() Trying to expand to the left side, you first have to take a mineral only, but this is also the base furthest away from your enemy, so its the easiest 3rd base to defend. You reduce the surface where your main can be dropped, you secured your backdoor. Disadvantages are, that he can contain you outside your natural, or focus on gas at natural/temples behind. after you took the 4th on the left side, you can defend the big ramp and your natural and only have to worry about recall/doom drop in a small area. it may be hard to reinforce through the backdoor, but tanks can support from main and sunken/cannons at high ground 4th are still good. ![]() Conclusion: left side has 2 more bases to take compared to right side, taking bases on left side is easier to do and gives you more benefits (imo). Can we agree on that? So imo, everybody should focus their mid-lategame plan to secure the left side (red) while stopping the enemy from doing so (ground attack = yellow, drop/recall = blue). ![]() lets look how i see the matchups being played out. TvP: ![]() (PS: picture is missing a pylon wall below the 3 o clock base AND a blue arrow over the cliff at 9 o clock to terran 4th) The mains are close by air distance, open backdoor... terran should open vulture drop and take advantage of that. Afterwards they can defend early reaver drop by p with wraith. not exactly sure how survivability for terran is against proxy stuff, but if the game goes into some sort of standard mid-lategame, terran should be expanding to left side, securing his highground triangle outside his nat, and then focus all his pushing efforts along the red line in order to secure base 5 and poke at base 6. Red dots for turrets, Red lines for depot placement. Protoss can decide between taking 3rd at top right for 3rd gas or 3rd at top left to reduce vulture harass potential, with Blue Lines for Pylon walls. But after protoss has 4 bases, what is his 5th base? Taking terran base 6 is hard to defend because terrans main focus is taking red base 5 and 6, so even if protoss can take it, it easily gets destroyed. the only other 5th base left is the 3 o clock base (bottom right is too far away and is next to terrans door), but as said earlier, this base is rather open, and lots of dead space around it, while terran gets red base 5 and 6. Because of that, protoss has to stop terran from getting a secure position near red base 5 or he loses the economy war. He either attacks on ground or recalls into main, nat or 4th base. If protoss decides to ge carrier, he might have a chance to take red base 6 as a 5th while trying to get the carriers into terran backdoor. TvZ ![]() Actually after making the map i realized that this MU isnt that bad. TvZ best MU anyway :D Ok, close air means 2 hatch muta or mass muta and terran might have problems defending mass ling when going 1 rax cc, or defending mass muta with that open main..... But this map feels like destination, vultures are your friend, especially behind zerg nat. Because its a 2 player map, ebay block is also effective in detering zerg from going 2 hatch muta. Against 3 hatch zergs, vulture drop/fantasy build is still really good because of close air/big main/space behind natural. So imo, terran should open 1 fac with vulture into drop if possible and defend with valkonic. Now Zerg decides to either mass muta it or switch into lurker. With mass muta, zerg just takes gas bases and terran tries to kill mass muta..... If zerg goes lurker, game should go like my map shows. zerg takes 3rd with lurker and defends tank/vessel push with lurker/defiler. terran can try to go for drops into main, while changing targets between nat and 3rd of zerg (not indicated on map) or push the natural from the highground to kill gas. after that if terran goes late mech, he should take 3rd/4th while zerg takes 4th. Now zerg can either make fast muta switch (its only 3 gas, but bases are already secured and terran is spreading wide + still has open main) or pushes forward with lurker/swarm towards 5th/6th at left side and to the ramps. (purple arrows/lines) If terran decides to expand to the purple X, zerg can easily swarm push it from his 3rd, but at the same time, zerg cant take this base without queens (or drops) because tanks from main can deny mining. Now it looks like terran can attack mineral line from 9 o clock with tanks from middle, but i still think that the advantage in lategame goes to zerg, because just by securing the 9 o clock base with lurker/swarm, he can send in lings to the 3rd of terran and easily deny this base and by that time, zerg has drop + ovi speed finished and can start doom dropping into main while getting base at 9 o clock and the purple X. ZvP ![]() This is like Chain Reaction all over again... except you dont even have to mine out the backdoor.... and your hydras can attack the mineral line.... from the high ground..... I first thought about doing a map for lategame, but then i realized that 3 hatch hydra is just too strong. if p defends with mass cannons, he gets dropped or has lurkers behind his nat from either bottom left or temple...... If p somehow denies that strat, with like idk.... 1 base stuff with probe/pylon blocking that bottom left base and the game somehow evens out, zerg can still take his 2 backdoor bases as 3rd/4th and then use his secured spot at the left side to take the other 2 left bases and start pressure with mass drops. only solution then for p seems to start with heavy cors/reaver, take both backdoor expos himself and then leapfrog the left side. in the end, all MUs come down to: TvP: can protoss stop terran from securing the left 3 bases? TvZ: can terran stop zerg from securing his 3rd base at the left side/ drop him while pushing to kill his 3rd base at left side? ZvP: 3 hatch hydra!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My Proposed changes try to bring more focus to the right side of the map, in TvP, protoss gets an easier 5th base, while terran cant just blindly push to left side. in TvZ, terran gets an easier 5th base, while zerg cant just blindly push the left side. and in ZvP, if 3 hatch hydra somehow isnt an option anymore, protoss has easier 5th base while zerg cant just blindly push the left side. It will make the map symmetric just like blue storm and provide painful game to play and watch once the map has been split, heavily terran favored. when you split bluestorm, the split line consists of "cliff---- very long low ground with high ground ramps leading to it---cliff" so you either drop/recall over cliff where 1000 turrets are or you w8 for enemy to attack you up the high ground.... on this map, if you split top vs bottom, the split line consists of (left to right) "cliff--- low ground with 2 bases close by---cliff---- big low/highground space again with my new bases close by----cliff---low ground". Just getting into a real split map state will be very hard except for tvt, because the bases at left or right side are not that far from each other, while getting from left base to right base is harder. And you can still recall over middle cliff into main because of unbuildable space or runby at right side into corner expo. | ||
Freakling
Germany1526 Posts
Now it looks like terran can attack mineral line from 9 o clock with tanks from middle No, they cannot. Tank range is 12, distance here is at least 14 between where tanks can be placed and where workers would be mining. Otherwise your analysis seems spot on. | ||
Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
On June 01 2016 03:01 Freakling wrote: Show nested quote + Now it looks like terran can attack mineral line from 9 o clock with tanks from middle No, they cannot. Tank range is 12, distance here is at least 14 between where tanks can be placed and where workers would be mining. Otherwise your analysis seems spot on. thx, couldnt see that from just the map. | ||
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
I mostly agree with Bakuryu, map needs a change imo. | ||
LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
On June 01 2016 02:19 Freakling wrote: Well, there are mining bugs in both mains and the top natural. Tells you everything you need to know about the amount of prior testing that went into this @_@ Actually just looking at the two-minute deco job tells a lot of how much any one cared to actually provide a thought-out high-quality map... From the potential cheesy map abuse. this comparable to Bifrost, which equals more than a decade of regress in the evolution of maps. Balance is any ones guess, but my bet is its terrible Maybe you see something different from me, but I don't really agree with any of these. First of, has any one who does not see this as a Terran map considered that Terran can just easily take our bases through the backdoor at the left side? Most of the map is buildable, nat to nat distance is short, there are abusable cliffs all around the nat and the ridge in front of the nat, together with these other features, means terran can easily set up a contain there (well, at least it is only a semi-contain, as three entrances into the main/nat area mean one can at least sneak out through the backdoor). Also looks like a terrific map for all sorts of Vulture harassment. Maps with backdoor to the natural, especially with an open backdoor like this, have always been notoriously Z>P. I don't see how this would be the exception. It's not that taking a 3rd and 4th would be hard as Zerg, either. Tvz, terran requires a lot of turrets around the base. Terran requires to study of the building placements. It is not easy to find a perfect condition spot of turret within a few days. Zerg? Simple. Sunk straight line, build stuff on creep pretty much. Whoever is good at sk terran and survive first 10 mins of the game will be okay. Tvp, ugly looking map to expand. This will be more likely timing attack/strategy terran than upgrade style terran. Current protoss level players are amazing at playing against timing attack terran. The downside of protoss is once he gives away the high ground position, he loses 2nd gas and won't able to do anything. Zvp, zerg will require to study some hatchery, chamber, hydra den placement, and whoever is good at lurker hydra ling hive style will be good at this map (looking forward to see amazing ZvP by Hero). Protoss will be happy to face zerg's army a lot before hive finishes. Since zerg has to defend 3rd (if he took right side corner) then zerg has to come out of the map to face protoss. Common style of TvZ in 2 players map - 2 base 2 rax att1 4 rax - 3 hatch muta (9d/9 drone scout 12h) TvP - dropship, 4/5 fact timing into 3rd - reaver 3 base macro slight slow tempo arbiter PvZ - no muta fast hive style - 5-7 gates push into 3rd, goon ht | ||
WhiteKnight.US
Great Britain102 Posts
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1903 Posts
TvP early game seems very scary. Gas steal is very good for protoss because the standard response 1 rax fe is a bad idea on this map. On top of that you need more turrets vs reavers because there are more possible angles of attack and also there are a lot of proxy locations. On the other hand vultures also have a good time. Oov build seems like a good choice. The map reminds me a bit of sin chupung ryeong which is my all time favorite map =) | ||
Connor5620
Australia200 Posts
it will be nice to see how the cliffs behind the naturals will be used in gameplay lurkers? storm drops? maybe reavers? the map itself looks nice every base except the main can be shelled by tanks if bisu were to play on this map he had better get out of the slump hes been in for years! (fact) | ||
-NegativeZero-
United States2140 Posts
On May 31 2016 22:16 outscar wrote: Show nested quote + On May 31 2016 13:37 -NegativeZero- wrote: On May 31 2016 13:08 Noah2nd wrote: On May 31 2016 13:04 BLinD-RawR wrote: so map is official for afreeca starleague? also overwatch by negativezero? Yes. It wll be use the League. And No. New map of Ragnarok[Valkyrie]. damn it, you got me really excited for a second there If only it was foreigner "Overwatch" NZ would go instantly back to BW mapmaking, right? ^^ lol maybe - one of the reasons i stopped was that there wasn't much demand for new bw maps, but if that changed... although it still wouldn't change the fact that i'm bad at bw and bad at theorizing high level strategies on maps | ||
Lucumo
6850 Posts
On May 31 2016 20:33 Garrl wrote: Show nested quote + On May 31 2016 17:48 kogeT wrote: I've posted this already, but how any of you can say this is a terran map? This map has an extremely difficult 3rd to be taken, 2 ramps to natural (denies rax FE), a lot of high ground that makes it super difficult to push, huge main that is difficult to be covered with turrets. All in all, this map will be a 2 base madness with huge amount of early game cheeses (you can build proxys everywhere). Only thing that I find OK for terran on that map is harassment potential both for vultures and drops. Also vs Z early game survival would be a problem (unless you cheese) every single map ever since the dawn of starcraft has looked 'like a terran map' because they see high ground and think tanks. Exactly, I guess he hasn't been around in many map threads because then he would also know that siege tanks shoot across half the map. | ||
puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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outscar
2828 Posts
1st impressions are vulture harass is strong on this one and 1st base trade game against Shuttle already made me excited after countless FS/CB . After I realized hydras are more problematic than vultures. | ||
HaFnium
United Kingdom1071 Posts
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