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Garimtoss is really important too...
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United States20661 Posts
On February 22 2007 05:13 MaGic~PhiL wrote: For me personaly the 5 most IMPORTANT gamers for SC/BW have been :
1. Boxer 2. NaDa 3. Savior 4. Oov 5. Grrrr...
The 5 best players in terms of skills and pure multitaskin/Micro/macro ability for me are :
1. Savior 2. NaDa 3. Oov 4. [iDEF]Slayer aka hasulurker 5. Boxer
The 5 best player of all times for me are :
1. NaDa 2. Boxer 3. Savior 4. Oov 5. Grrrr...
I don't see how YellOw doesn't make the list for most important. Same with Reach. YellOw was the hope of Zerg in a time of Uboat/HoV/NFZ/Charity/Gorky/other stupid maps. He pioneered modern Zerg play and contributed greatly to the popularity of Starcraft. After all, without Jinho, where is your Lim/Jin rok?
Reach, hero toss, only toss to do well in several Starleagues, notably EVER with its Mercury. He slumps now, yes, but he was most consistent pro along with YellOw before the slump. He made standard Protoss play - and while his PvZ now is laughable, much like BoxeR's TvP, in his time it was still feared. His contributions to macro play go unnoticed too often. He was one of the first "macro players", but due to his flashy storm micro and such, people overlook it.
So I'd put it 1. BoxeR 2. Grrr... 3. YellOw 4. Reach 5. OoV
Then by pure skill I'd put: 1. NaDa 2. sAviOr 3. ooV 4. Nal_rA 5. BoxeR
I just don't think Slayer could compete with today's people. Even if you were best in 99, you can't possibly lay claim to "most skilled", whereas best in '07 conceivably could.
All Time Greats: Four Kings + oov, I guess. I don't know how I'd rank them.
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I agree with GrandInquisitor - Boxer, oov and Nada all changed gameplay quite a bit in one way or another, maybe grrr too. Of these three, I think Boxer has done the most.
I also disagree with Magic-Phils assessment that Slayer (if he's talking about ds-slayer) ranks as no.4 in an all time list of skills + mechanical abilities (micro/macro/multitasking). Skills + mechanical abilities = everything required in a game to win, ie the mechanics, strategy, timing etc. Boxer was better than Slayer back when the latter played, and Boxer has improved tremendously since then. If Boxer had a winning record against Slayer back then, a Boxer of now would seriously ass rape him. You're forgetting how much the game has evolved and how good todays progamers are compared to the players of 1.07 and 1.08. I think all top tier progamers (eg top 30 kespa) are superior in terms of mechanical ability compared to the Slayer of back then. And its useless to argue how good Slayer might have become, because this discussion isnt about the potentially greatest SC player, its about whats actually happened. Sorry, but Slayer isnt even close to being top 5 of all time in terms of developed skill and mechanical ability. Maybe he had the talent, but if thats the case, he never played long enough to fully exploit it.
A more reasonable argument would be that Slayer is in the top 5 in terms of skill and mechanical ability when judged against the players of his own time. Even so, it would still be very hard to decide whether or not to place him in a top 5 all time list, because a lot of players have displayed excellent skills as compared to their peers in different eras.
Slayer was definitely an excellent player, but in the top 5 in terms of skill and mechanics? Probably not. Top 10? Better chance. In a top x list when judging against the players of ones own time? An excellent chance. I think I would agree.
Furthermore, I think people are forgetting how impactful Boxer initially was, just because its been so long. People were wowing over Casy's fake expo move, but back in the day Boxer changed SC by doing one out-of-the-box strategy after another. I remember when the first Boxer replays started leaking out and people were completely blown away by what he was doing, by both his strategies and his micro. I agree that even without a Boxer, Starcraft would have developed the way it has, but probably more slowly, and by the contribution of a lot of players. Boxer, I think, violently raised the bar, and changed the way people played dramatically. And not just Terran. By introducing new strategies, he forced his opponents to come up with new counters. And his crazy micro not only inspired terran players, it also encouraged protoss and zerg users to start microing harder.
He not only changed the game, he influenced other players to change it as well.
And of course he's extremely personable. Thats why he has the largest fan site.
This thread isnt about the "best" player, or the most "skilled" player, its about the "greatest" player. And greatness would embody a whole lot more than just a list of achievements.
Overall, I think BoxeR has changed the face of Starcraft more than any other player in history, and massively helped it achieve the status it has today. This is not to take away from the contributions of a lot of other players, but I think Boxer has done more than any other single starcraft player.
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And yeah, Grrr obviously gets a place in a top 5 or at least a top 10 list for kick starting pro Starcraft.
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YellOw is definitely still the father of Zerg
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On February 22 2007 09:39 Gandalf wrote: I agree with GrandInquisitor - Boxer, oov and Nada all changed gameplay quite a bit in one way or another, maybe grrr too. Of these three, I think Boxer has done the most. (if he's talking about ds-slayer)
no, hes talking about [GG99]Slayer, the guy o n east was never that good and always bragged about being sweet and stuff
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They're the same guy....
ds-slayer = [gg99]slayer
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ie the guy who lost to Boxer in some challenge to determine the "best" player of the world or something. If I remember correctly, Slayer randomed and got Zerg all games (not sure, been a while). Must have sucked to play three ZvTs straight vs Boxer.
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On February 22 2007 09:58 Gandalf wrote: They're the same guy....
ds-slayer = [gg99]slayer
Wow your an idiot. DS-SLayer is a random east newbie, while [GG99]SlayeR was one of the best players in starcraft history.
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Oh ok then my bad, its been a long while and I got confused, I'm talking about gg99 Slayer. I already clarified that by mentioning his games vs Boxer...
Its obvious a random east newbie wouldnt feature in a top 5 list by anyone anyways.
Also, I think you need to relax a bit -_-
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how many osl wins did slayer have? who is he?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On February 22 2007 08:20 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2007 06:30 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On February 22 2007 02:48 Letmelose wrote:+ Show Spoiler +In my opinion the greatest starcraft players list can be narrowed down to 5 players. Grrrr, Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior. Other players like Yellow, Ra and July are great in their own right, but fall short when you compare them to these 5 gods of starcraft.
Grrrr was not only the greatest foreign player ever, but dominated the early Korean programming scene. He came to Korea as the famous ladder gosu everybody knew and befuddled the best that Korea had to offer with his random play (he only selected protoss when he was in trouble which goes to show how far ahead he considered himself to be). Not only did he get astronomical tournament winnings, which by the way were the only source of income for programmers back then, his annual tournament winnings back then are still comparable to the tournament winnings of top gamers today.
Boxer is boxer. I\'ll skip him. Nada as all of you know has accomplished more than any other programmer. Oov ended Nada\'s era and took his level of domination one step further. And as of now Savior is the man to beat.
How do we compare these players? Well, there are a lot of ways. One way is to take a segment of career when these players were at their peak (their best 100 consecutive games), and compare them statistically. Of course there are a lot of factors, but I believe that as far as comparing goes, this way isn\'t too bad. I got the sources from pgr21 and other Korean starcraft community sites, I\'m pretty sure these numbers are accurate.
1. Grrrr (Feb 16th 2000 ~ April 27th 2001)
v T: 7 wins 0 loses (100%) v Z: 22 wins 16 losses (57.9%) v P: 3 wins 5 losses (37.5%) Total: 32 wins 21 losses (60.4%)
Grrrr played in an era when there were less televised matches then today and he was notorious for practicing less than he should and his era quickly came to an end. I think the guy who organized the statistics had to stretch out Grrrr\'s peak era because he didn\'t play enough games, thus the numbers don\'t look too impressive. But if you look at the televised matches from 1999 to 2000, Grrrr had the most number of wins as well as the best winning percentage.
2. Boxer (Feb 16th 2001 ~ Aug 30th 2002)
v T: 15 wins 8 losses (65.2%) v Z: 35 wins 13 losses (72.9%) v P: 19 wins 10 losses (65.5%) Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)
Boxer was famous even before his era of domination for his creative play. I guess his best display of domination can be seen in WCG 2001, where he won the whole tournmaent without losing a single game, and that's including the preliminaries. He said it himself, he practiced not so that he would win, but so that he would win in style. There may be better players than Boxer, but I don\'t think we\'ll ever see a bigger icon than him.
3. Nada (April 25th 2002 ~ March 13th 2003)
v T: 15 wins 9 losses (62.5%) v Z: 33 wins 15 losses (68.8%) v P: 22 wins 8 losses (78.6%) Total: 70 wins 30 losses (70%)
The boy genius. This guy was made for starcraft. No weak match ups, a ridiculously high apm and the ability to just look at Boxer\'s replays and copy them without breaking a sweat (Nada was titled genius after he managed to absorb build orders which Boxer took days of hard thinking to make). He was the gosu amateur who beat programmers, and then he became the greatest of them all, perhaps even better than Boxer himself. He seems to be slightly restricted in his play, despite his \'freestyle\' way of playing, which is the only reason I can come up with when answering the question \'why did Oov get the better of him?\'.
4. Oov (July 11th 2003 ~ Aug 29th 2004)
v T: 32 wins 16 losses (66.7%) v Z: 20 wins 3 losses (87%) v P: 22 wins 7 losses (75.9%) Total: 74 wins 26 losses (74%)
I have the hardest time explaining Oov\'s success (the best I can come up with is that he understood macromanagement better than anyone else at the time). His numbers are actually buffed up higher than it seems because he had instantaneous success compared to other gamers. He beat players left and right when he was an anonimity, and his winning percentage dropped to appropriate levels with each passing year.
5. Savior
Ok. It\'s clear that the four previous players now have their best days behind them. There are two periods for Savior, and even these two slots might not show him in the best light since he could do even better to increase his percentage.
a) (Feb 12th 2005 ~ sometime in 2006)
The guy who organised most of these statistics, altair, didn\'t really specify time line. I would guess the approximate date to be sometime after Savior beat Ra in the Pringles Season 2 finals.
v T: 21 wins 7 losses (75%) v Z: 20 wins 13 losses (60.6%) v P: 28 wins 11 losses (71.8%) Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)
This is the early stage of Savior\'s career at the beginning of which he had yet to be recognized as a top class gamer.
b) (March 4th 2006 ~ Feb 16th 2007)
v T: 31 wins 15 losses (67.3%) v Z: 20 wins 6 losses (76.9%) v P: 25 wins 3 losses (89.3%) Total: 76 wins 24 losses (76%)
As you all know 2006 has been Savior\'s best year by far. Depending on his results in the future, reaching 90% winning percentage versus protoss and 80% winning percentage versus zerg could be the mind boggling feat he achieves. He still does great against terran, but exposure to top class opposition over a period of time and the ever present terran favouring maps took its toll.
So there you have it. If we exclude Grrrr, because his era of dominance is hard to compare with others, you can see that there\'s hardly any difference (69, 70, 74, 76 wins out of 100 respectively) between the four programmers. The scary thing is though, Savior\'s winning percentage is increasing as time passes by, and it's already highest out of the five already. Awesome post, thanks a lot. One thing though, change "programmer" to "progamer". Programmers are people who write programs. You know what? For the longest time I've been reading 'progamers' on this site as 'programmers' for some inexplicable reason. It really confused the hell out of me at first, I thought that people on tl called progamers 'programmers' because gamers moved onto programming after their career was over or something. The funny thing is I actually checked my post once for typos and never actually thought twice about the progamer/programmer thing -_- pretty embarassing hehe.
It's understandable - there are a bunch of people here who do it for some reason
It's not nearly as bad as "progammers" which i've seen countless times as well
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
What systematic changes did boxer introduce?
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The greatest player of all times is BOXER. Period.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
you forgot to put that julyzerg got 2nd at wcg 2006
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On February 22 2007 11:01 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2007 08:20 Letmelose wrote:On February 22 2007 06:30 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On February 22 2007 02:48 Letmelose wrote:+ Show Spoiler +In my opinion the greatest starcraft players list can be narrowed down to 5 players. Grrrr, Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior. Other players like Yellow, Ra and July are great in their own right, but fall short when you compare them to these 5 gods of starcraft.
Grrrr was not only the greatest foreign player ever, but dominated the early Korean programming scene. He came to Korea as the famous ladder gosu everybody knew and befuddled the best that Korea had to offer with his random play (he only selected protoss when he was in trouble which goes to show how far ahead he considered himself to be). Not only did he get astronomical tournament winnings, which by the way were the only source of income for programmers back then, his annual tournament winnings back then are still comparable to the tournament winnings of top gamers today.
Boxer is boxer. I\'ll skip him. Nada as all of you know has accomplished more than any other programmer. Oov ended Nada\'s era and took his level of domination one step further. And as of now Savior is the man to beat.
How do we compare these players? Well, there are a lot of ways. One way is to take a segment of career when these players were at their peak (their best 100 consecutive games), and compare them statistically. Of course there are a lot of factors, but I believe that as far as comparing goes, this way isn\'t too bad. I got the sources from pgr21 and other Korean starcraft community sites, I\'m pretty sure these numbers are accurate.
1. Grrrr (Feb 16th 2000 ~ April 27th 2001)
v T: 7 wins 0 loses (100%) v Z: 22 wins 16 losses (57.9%) v P: 3 wins 5 losses (37.5%) Total: 32 wins 21 losses (60.4%)
Grrrr played in an era when there were less televised matches then today and he was notorious for practicing less than he should and his era quickly came to an end. I think the guy who organized the statistics had to stretch out Grrrr\'s peak era because he didn\'t play enough games, thus the numbers don\'t look too impressive. But if you look at the televised matches from 1999 to 2000, Grrrr had the most number of wins as well as the best winning percentage.
2. Boxer (Feb 16th 2001 ~ Aug 30th 2002)
v T: 15 wins 8 losses (65.2%) v Z: 35 wins 13 losses (72.9%) v P: 19 wins 10 losses (65.5%) Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)
Boxer was famous even before his era of domination for his creative play. I guess his best display of domination can be seen in WCG 2001, where he won the whole tournmaent without losing a single game, and that's including the preliminaries. He said it himself, he practiced not so that he would win, but so that he would win in style. There may be better players than Boxer, but I don\'t think we\'ll ever see a bigger icon than him.
3. Nada (April 25th 2002 ~ March 13th 2003)
v T: 15 wins 9 losses (62.5%) v Z: 33 wins 15 losses (68.8%) v P: 22 wins 8 losses (78.6%) Total: 70 wins 30 losses (70%)
The boy genius. This guy was made for starcraft. No weak match ups, a ridiculously high apm and the ability to just look at Boxer\'s replays and copy them without breaking a sweat (Nada was titled genius after he managed to absorb build orders which Boxer took days of hard thinking to make). He was the gosu amateur who beat programmers, and then he became the greatest of them all, perhaps even better than Boxer himself. He seems to be slightly restricted in his play, despite his \'freestyle\' way of playing, which is the only reason I can come up with when answering the question \'why did Oov get the better of him?\'.
4. Oov (July 11th 2003 ~ Aug 29th 2004)
v T: 32 wins 16 losses (66.7%) v Z: 20 wins 3 losses (87%) v P: 22 wins 7 losses (75.9%) Total: 74 wins 26 losses (74%)
I have the hardest time explaining Oov\'s success (the best I can come up with is that he understood macromanagement better than anyone else at the time). His numbers are actually buffed up higher than it seems because he had instantaneous success compared to other gamers. He beat players left and right when he was an anonimity, and his winning percentage dropped to appropriate levels with each passing year.
5. Savior
Ok. It\'s clear that the four previous players now have their best days behind them. There are two periods for Savior, and even these two slots might not show him in the best light since he could do even better to increase his percentage.
a) (Feb 12th 2005 ~ sometime in 2006)
The guy who organised most of these statistics, altair, didn\'t really specify time line. I would guess the approximate date to be sometime after Savior beat Ra in the Pringles Season 2 finals.
v T: 21 wins 7 losses (75%) v Z: 20 wins 13 losses (60.6%) v P: 28 wins 11 losses (71.8%) Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)
This is the early stage of Savior\'s career at the beginning of which he had yet to be recognized as a top class gamer.
b) (March 4th 2006 ~ Feb 16th 2007)
v T: 31 wins 15 losses (67.3%) v Z: 20 wins 6 losses (76.9%) v P: 25 wins 3 losses (89.3%) Total: 76 wins 24 losses (76%)
As you all know 2006 has been Savior\'s best year by far. Depending on his results in the future, reaching 90% winning percentage versus protoss and 80% winning percentage versus zerg could be the mind boggling feat he achieves. He still does great against terran, but exposure to top class opposition over a period of time and the ever present terran favouring maps took its toll.
So there you have it. If we exclude Grrrr, because his era of dominance is hard to compare with others, you can see that there\'s hardly any difference (69, 70, 74, 76 wins out of 100 respectively) between the four programmers. The scary thing is though, Savior\'s winning percentage is increasing as time passes by, and it's already highest out of the five already. Awesome post, thanks a lot. One thing though, change "programmer" to "progamer". Programmers are people who write programs. You know what? For the longest time I've been reading 'progamers' on this site as 'programmers' for some inexplicable reason. It really confused the hell out of me at first, I thought that people on tl called progamers 'programmers' because gamers moved onto programming after their career was over or something. The funny thing is I actually checked my post once for typos and never actually thought twice about the progamer/programmer thing -_- pretty embarassing hehe. It's understandable - there are a bunch of people here who do it for some reason It's not nearly as bad as "progammers" which i've seen countless times as well
You know, I used to confuse progamers with programmers too, probably because I only skimmed over the word.
Never thought it was progammers though lol
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On February 22 2007 09:29 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2007 05:13 MaGic~PhiL wrote: For me personaly the 5 most IMPORTANT gamers for SC/BW have been :
1. Boxer 2. NaDa 3. Savior 4. Oov 5. Grrrr...
The 5 best players in terms of skills and pure multitaskin/Micro/macro ability for me are :
1. Savior 2. NaDa 3. Oov 4. [iDEF]Slayer aka hasulurker 5. Boxer
The 5 best player of all times for me are :
1. NaDa 2. Boxer 3. Savior 4. Oov 5. Grrrr...
I don't see how YellOw doesn't make the list for most important. Same with Reach. YellOw was the hope of Zerg in a time of Uboat/HoV/NFZ/Charity/Gorky/other stupid maps. He pioneered modern Zerg play and contributed greatly to the popularity of Starcraft. After all, without Jinho, where is your Lim/Jin rok? Reach, hero toss, only toss to do well in several Starleagues, notably EVER with its Mercury. He slumps now, yes, but he was most consistent pro along with YellOw before the slump. He made standard Protoss play - and while his PvZ now is laughable, much like BoxeR's TvP, in his time it was still feared. His contributions to macro play go unnoticed too often. He was one of the first "macro players", but due to his flashy storm micro and such, people overlook it. So I'd put it 1. BoxeR 2. Grrr... 3. YellOw 4. Reach 5. OoV
As far as importance goes, I would put July above Yellow. The importance of his ITV and 2 OSL wins should not be underestimated. Before July, zerg had no meaningful tournament victories. July, not Yellow, was the great zerg hope.
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i think were forgetting Nal_rA
to me his competitiveness / skill is on the same level as Boxer / Nada / and all the top pros.
but again it's really hard to put anyone with savior since he's winning every fucking time.
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Slayer was a Norwegian guy that played many years ago. He won tournaments, were extremely talented(He has now switched to poker, and has becomed a "multi millionare" 2-3 million dollars, has it been said) He also played his way up to go to Korea, where he won the KBK. He has a documentary that probably many of you have seen, where people like Grrrr gives comments about his extremely fast hands, bit talent and etc.(If i can recall correctly) He also got invited to be a progamer. I find this very impressive, although it was in the very early era of progaming.
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