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Greatest player of all times - Page 6

Forum Index > BW General
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tomatriedes
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
New Zealand5356 Posts
February 21 2007 13:29 GMT
#101
On February 19 2007 02:15 muramasa wrote:
Right now, it's safe to say that NaDa is #1. No question. SaviOr's current dominance is incredible, but in terms of career results, he's behind the likes of July, Boxer and Oov. I think if he manages to pull off winning the current OSL and MSL, then he will be right behind NaDa.

SaviOr's period of complete dominance is close to an end IMO. The Terran's seem to have figured him out to an extent. He definitely hasn't seemed invincible lately. It reminds me a lot of Oov when he was on top.

Is there a list of of career earnings anywhere? Because in the end, whichever of these guys makes off with the most loot is the real winner. I'm sure SaviOr is way behind old school guys like YellOw et all with regards to that. NaDa has got to be loaded considering all his tournament wins, plus his sweet contract with Pantech.


I don't know if the terrans have all got sAviOr figured out so much as that he's had to put up with some shitty maps this season on both OSL and MSL. Give him a map like Arcadia with its two min and gas nat and he's still gonna own most terrans.
LeJe
Profile Joined December 2006
Romania65 Posts
February 21 2007 13:45 GMT
#102
every 2-3 months a thread like this gets made... u guys never get bored of the same useless discussions.
Locked
Profile Joined September 2004
United States4182 Posts
February 21 2007 13:46 GMT
#103
On February 21 2007 22:45 LeJe wrote:
every 2-3 months a thread like this gets made... u guys never get bored of the same useless discussions.


haha

but of course 2-3 months ago savior hadn't yet qualified for two finals in the same season, and nada hadn't completely raped the osl champion's curse to be in the running for a fourth OSL
UMS map pack http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=50442
tomatriedes
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
New Zealand5356 Posts
February 21 2007 13:55 GMT
#104
On February 21 2007 22:45 LeJe wrote:
every 2-3 months a thread like this gets made... u guys never get bored of the same useless discussions.


That's the reality of a forum that has new members joining all the time.
iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
February 21 2007 14:28 GMT
#105
On February 19 2007 12:31 fig_newbie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2007 13:33 One Page Memory wrote:
[image loading]

Oov was fucking monster, but Nada deserves more.

Christ thats inhuman.

I think many people are forgetting that those percentages include individual games, not series. Oov wasn't just winning sets, he was winning them 2-0, 3-0 constantly. Golden bagels V_V.


tennis player?

Meh, should've taken an earlier screenshot from when his TvT was still at like 77% and TvP was over 90% with a 12-1 record, before Kingdom and Xellos added several losses. When those records were reported, some members of this board probably laughed at themselves for thinking TvT was his strongest matchup. He also had a 21-1 or so tvz record in OGN before losing to July, eclipsing any boxer or nada feat. He was pretty much #1 in the world at every terran matchup, excluding players with 1-0 records. The TvT record was just as impressive as the other two when you consider that at one point more than half of his losses came from playing against Nada. So this is why I think iloveoov was the most dominant player of all time. Add the 5-0 SL finals record and the 17 or so winstreak against zerg, and the early expo revolution in strategy(not saying it's a good thing...) so there's my vote for the most dominant player, though Nada is still the greatest because of his longetivity, number of tournament wins, and somehow more satisfying, complete game.
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
tomatriedes
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
New Zealand5356 Posts
February 21 2007 14:32 GMT
#106
On February 21 2007 23:28 iamke55 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2007 12:31 fig_newbie wrote:
On February 18 2007 13:33 One Page Memory wrote:
[image loading]

Oov was fucking monster, but Nada deserves more.

Christ thats inhuman.

I think many people are forgetting that those percentages include individual games, not series. Oov wasn't just winning sets, he was winning them 2-0, 3-0 constantly. Golden bagels V_V.


tennis player?

Meh, should've taken an earlier screenshot from when his TvT was still at like 77% and TvP was over 90% with a 12-1 record, before Kingdom and Xellos added several losses. When those records were reported, some members of this board probably laughed at themselves for thinking TvT was his strongest matchup. He also had a 21-1 or so tvz record in OGN before losing to July, eclipsing any boxer or nada feat. He was pretty much #1 in the world at every terran matchup, excluding players with 1-0 records. The TvT record was just as impressive as the other two when you consider that at one point more than half of his losses came from playing against Nada. So this is why I think iloveoov was the most dominant player of all time. Add the 5-0 SL finals record and the 17 or so winstreak against zerg, and the early expo revolution in strategy(not saying it's a good thing...) so there's my vote for the most dominant player, though Nada is still the greatest because of his longetivity, number of tournament wins, and somehow more satisfying, complete game.


And yet... sAviOr still managed to cream him 3-0 in the Cyon MSL semi-final. Amazing.
KovacsFlorian
Profile Joined January 2006
204 Posts
February 21 2007 15:24 GMT
#107
On February 21 2007 23:32 tomatriedes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2007 23:28 iamke55 wrote:
On February 19 2007 12:31 fig_newbie wrote:
On February 18 2007 13:33 One Page Memory wrote:
[image loading]

Oov was fucking monster, but Nada deserves more.

Christ thats inhuman.

I think many people are forgetting that those percentages include individual games, not series. Oov wasn't just winning sets, he was winning them 2-0, 3-0 constantly. Golden bagels V_V.


tennis player?

Meh, should've taken an earlier screenshot from when his TvT was still at like 77% and TvP was over 90% with a 12-1 record, before Kingdom and Xellos added several losses. When those records were reported, some members of this board probably laughed at themselves for thinking TvT was his strongest matchup. He also had a 21-1 or so tvz record in OGN before losing to July, eclipsing any boxer or nada feat. He was pretty much #1 in the world at every terran matchup, excluding players with 1-0 records. The TvT record was just as impressive as the other two when you consider that at one point more than half of his losses came from playing against Nada. So this is why I think iloveoov was the most dominant player of all time. Add the 5-0 SL finals record and the 17 or so winstreak against zerg, and the early expo revolution in strategy(not saying it's a good thing...) so there's my vote for the most dominant player, though Nada is still the greatest because of his longetivity, number of tournament wins, and somehow more satisfying, complete game.


And yet... sAviOr still managed to cream him 3-0 in the Cyon MSL semi-final. Amazing.


This doesn't take away from oov's achievements. Oov was the most dominant player in BW history. His loses against Savior only mean that his period of dominance came to an end.
You talking to me? You talking to me? You talking to me? Then who the hell else are you talking to? You talking to me? Well, I am the only one here. Who do the fuck do you think you are talking to? Oh, yeah? Ok.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 21 2007 16:52 GMT
#108
hehe yeah oov completely raped the scene when he came on. it is just that the competitive environment of progaming makes it hard to dominate for a long time, the dominance will force adaptation and adaptation eventually either reveals the game to be imbalanced or reduces the strategic/systematic decision-making edge of the dominant force.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Resonate
Profile Joined October 2002
United Kingdom8402 Posts
February 21 2007 17:00 GMT
#109
On February 18 2007 08:21 Carnac wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2007 08:17 Locke. wrote:
They should add the CJ event where he won singlehandedly for his team. It was HIS win more than it was a team win.
oh comeon, it was just 3 bo1 wins -.- not that noteworthy in terms of accomplishments

yeah, that and all the other teams politely mixed up their players while CJ rudely sent their ace player for every game
Memory lane in nice
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36375 Posts
February 21 2007 17:24 GMT
#110
you say "polite" and "rude"

everyone sees "dumb" and "smart"
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 21 2007 17:26 GMT
#111
haha. it is still a testament of savior's strength and statue, even in so short a period of time the level of dominance he showed in his games, beyond the wins and names taken down, is winning him some substantial points.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-02-21 17:53:21
February 21 2007 17:48 GMT
#112
In my opinion the greatest starcraft players list can be narrowed down to 5 players. Grrrr, Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior. Other players like Yellow, Ra and July are great in their own right, but fall short when you compare them to these 5 gods of starcraft.

Grrrr was not only the greatest foreign player ever, but dominated the early Korean programming scene. He came to Korea as the famous ladder gosu everybody knew and befuddled the best that Korea had to offer with his random play (he only selected protoss when he was in trouble which goes to show how far ahead he considered himself to be). Not only did he get astronomical tournament winnings, which by the way were the only source of income for programmers back then, his annual tournament winnings back then are still comparable to the tournament winnings of top gamers today.

Boxer is boxer. I\'ll skip him. Nada as all of you know has accomplished more than any other programmer. Oov ended Nada\'s era and took his level of domination one step further. And as of now Savior is the man to beat.

How do we compare these players? Well, there are a lot of ways. One way is to take a segment of career when these players were at their peak (their best 100 consecutive games), and compare them statistically. Of course there are a lot of factors, but I believe that as far as comparing goes, this way isn\'t too bad. I got the sources from pgr21 and other Korean starcraft community sites, I\'m pretty sure these numbers are accurate.

1. Grrrr (Feb 16th 2000 ~ April 27th 2001)

v T: 7 wins 0 loses (100%)
v Z: 22 wins 16 losses (57.9%)
v P: 3 wins 5 losses (37.5%)
Total: 32 wins 21 losses (60.4%)

Grrrr played in an era when there were less televised matches then today and he was notorious for practicing less than he should and his era quickly came to an end. I think the guy who organized the statistics had to stretch out Grrrr\'s peak era because he didn\'t play enough games, thus the numbers don\'t look too impressive. But if you look at the televised matches from 1999 to 2000, Grrrr had the most number of wins as well as the best winning percentage.

2. Boxer (Feb 16th 2001 ~ Aug 30th 2002)

v T: 15 wins 8 losses (65.2%)
v Z: 35 wins 13 losses (72.9%)
v P: 19 wins 10 losses (65.5%)
Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)

Boxer was famous even before his era of domination for his creative play. I guess his best display of domination can be seen in WCG 2001, where he won the whole tournmaent without losing a single game, and that's including the preliminaries. He said it himself, he practiced not so that he would win, but so that he would win in style. There may be better players than Boxer, but I don\'t think we\'ll ever see a bigger icon than him.

3. Nada (April 25th 2002 ~ March 13th 2003)

v T: 15 wins 9 losses (62.5%)
v Z: 33 wins 15 losses (68.8%)
v P: 22 wins 8 losses (78.6%)
Total: 70 wins 30 losses (70%)

The boy genius. This guy was made for starcraft. No weak match ups, a ridiculously high apm and the ability to just look at Boxer\'s replays and copy them without breaking a sweat (Nada was titled genius after he managed to absorb build orders which Boxer took days of hard thinking to make). He was the gosu amateur who beat programmers, and then he became the greatest of them all, perhaps even better than Boxer himself. He seems to be slightly restricted in his play, despite his \'freestyle\' way of playing, which is the only reason I can come up with when answering the question \'why did Oov get the better of him?\'.

4. Oov (July 11th 2003 ~ Aug 29th 2004)

v T: 32 wins 16 losses (66.7%)
v Z: 20 wins 3 losses (87%)
v P: 22 wins 7 losses (75.9%)
Total: 74 wins 26 losses (74%)

I have the hardest time explaining Oov\'s success (the best I can come up with is that he understood macromanagement better than anyone else at the time). His numbers are actually buffed up higher than it seems because he had instantaneous success compared to other gamers. He beat players left and right when he was an anonimity, and his winning percentage dropped to appropriate levels with each passing year.

5. Savior

Ok. It\'s clear that the four previous players now have their best days behind them. There are two periods for Savior, and even these two slots might not show him in the best light since he could do even better to increase his percentage.

a) (Feb 12th 2005 ~ sometime in 2006)

The guy who organised most of these statistics, altair, didn\'t really specify time line. I would guess the approximate date to be sometime after Savior beat Ra in the Pringles Season 2 finals.

v T: 21 wins 7 losses (75%)
v Z: 20 wins 13 losses (60.6%)
v P: 28 wins 11 losses (71.8%)
Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)

This is the early stage of Savior\'s career at the beginning of which he had yet to be recognized as a top class gamer.

b) (March 4th 2006 ~ Feb 16th 2007)

v T: 31 wins 15 losses (67.3%)
v Z: 20 wins 6 losses (76.9%)
v P: 25 wins 3 losses (89.3%)
Total: 76 wins 24 losses (76%)

As you all know 2006 has been Savior\'s best year by far. Depending on his results in the future, reaching 90% winning percentage versus protoss and 80% winning percentage versus zerg could be the mind boggling feat he achieves. He still does great against terran, but exposure to top class opposition over a period of time and the ever present terran favouring maps took its toll.

So there you have it. If we exclude Grrrr, because his era of dominance is hard to compare with others, you can see that there\'s hardly any difference (69, 70, 74, 76 wins out of 100 respectively) between the four programmers. The scary thing is though, Savior\'s winning percentage is increasing as time passes by, and it's already highest out of the five already.
TL+ Member
PhilGood2DaY
Profile Joined September 2005
Germany7424 Posts
February 21 2007 20:13 GMT
#113
nice lists and statistics =)

you can not objectively say that boxer is the best/greatest of all time, because he is not ; at least not clearly..

you cant not say NaDa is the best/greatest of all time, because only achievements dont qualify you to be the \'one\' / the \'king\'


so for me its like that :


NaDa has accomplished the most, no discussion about that. NaDa is the most consistent pro gamer ever. He started winning in 2001 and is still in the hardest league 2007 playing in the final!


Boxer had the biggest impact on the game, and it has its reasons why he is called the Greatest One.. But for me this is bias and everyones ones own opinion, because everyone measures success/style/publicity/ect.. different. And so for many Boxer is the Greatest of all time. For some its NaDa and for some others its even oov/july/or mabe even Grrrr...

That is all everyones own business and i m not sure that there is actually a clear choice, that is right..


For me personaly the 5 most IMPORTANT gamers for SC/BW have been :

1. Boxer
2. NaDa
3. Savior
4. Oov
5. Grrrr...

The 5 best players in terms of skills and pure multitaskin/Micro/macro ability for me are :

1. Savior
2. NaDa
3. Oov
4. [iDEF]Slayer aka hasulurker
5. Boxer

The 5 best player of all times for me are :

1. NaDa
2. Boxer
3. Savior
4. Oov
5. Grrrr...



So as you can see.. this is all very much my own opinion and cant really be explained by pure number..

And only looking at some records.. and saying .. this is the best ever.. and this is the 2nd or 3rd isnt really the right way to do it..

If you want an objective result go with the accomplishemnts of the players, rate the win of a tourney 100% higher than the 2nd place and so on..

Put it all together and you probably get NaDa and Boxer at first place..


I find it very very nice, that Giyom is still in a \'all time\' list, because he actually gets forgotten so fast and this is very sad, because he is actually THE ONE who pathened they way for Boxer , who then made pro gaming to what it is now.. so giyom basicaly is a pioneer, even more than boxer is..


PhiL
hatred outlives the hateful
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
February 21 2007 21:30 GMT
#114
On February 22 2007 02:48 Letmelose wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
In my opinion the greatest starcraft players list can be narrowed down to 5 players. Grrrr, Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior. Other players like Yellow, Ra and July are great in their own right, but fall short when you compare them to these 5 gods of starcraft.

Grrrr was not only the greatest foreign player ever, but dominated the early Korean programming scene. He came to Korea as the famous ladder gosu everybody knew and befuddled the best that Korea had to offer with his random play (he only selected protoss when he was in trouble which goes to show how far ahead he considered himself to be). Not only did he get astronomical tournament winnings, which by the way were the only source of income for programmers back then, his annual tournament winnings back then are still comparable to the tournament winnings of top gamers today.

Boxer is boxer. I\'ll skip him. Nada as all of you know has accomplished more than any other programmer. Oov ended Nada\'s era and took his level of domination one step further. And as of now Savior is the man to beat.

How do we compare these players? Well, there are a lot of ways. One way is to take a segment of career when these players were at their peak (their best 100 consecutive games), and compare them statistically. Of course there are a lot of factors, but I believe that as far as comparing goes, this way isn\'t too bad. I got the sources from pgr21 and other Korean starcraft community sites, I\'m pretty sure these numbers are accurate.

1. Grrrr (Feb 16th 2000 ~ April 27th 2001)

v T: 7 wins 0 loses (100%)
v Z: 22 wins 16 losses (57.9%)
v P: 3 wins 5 losses (37.5%)
Total: 32 wins 21 losses (60.4%)

Grrrr played in an era when there were less televised matches then today and he was notorious for practicing less than he should and his era quickly came to an end. I think the guy who organized the statistics had to stretch out Grrrr\'s peak era because he didn\'t play enough games, thus the numbers don\'t look too impressive. But if you look at the televised matches from 1999 to 2000, Grrrr had the most number of wins as well as the best winning percentage.

2. Boxer (Feb 16th 2001 ~ Aug 30th 2002)

v T: 15 wins 8 losses (65.2%)
v Z: 35 wins 13 losses (72.9%)
v P: 19 wins 10 losses (65.5%)
Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)

Boxer was famous even before his era of domination for his creative play. I guess his best display of domination can be seen in WCG 2001, where he won the whole tournmaent without losing a single game, and that's including the preliminaries. He said it himself, he practiced not so that he would win, but so that he would win in style. There may be better players than Boxer, but I don\'t think we\'ll ever see a bigger icon than him.

3. Nada (April 25th 2002 ~ March 13th 2003)

v T: 15 wins 9 losses (62.5%)
v Z: 33 wins 15 losses (68.8%)
v P: 22 wins 8 losses (78.6%)
Total: 70 wins 30 losses (70%)

The boy genius. This guy was made for starcraft. No weak match ups, a ridiculously high apm and the ability to just look at Boxer\'s replays and copy them without breaking a sweat (Nada was titled genius after he managed to absorb build orders which Boxer took days of hard thinking to make). He was the gosu amateur who beat programmers, and then he became the greatest of them all, perhaps even better than Boxer himself. He seems to be slightly restricted in his play, despite his \'freestyle\' way of playing, which is the only reason I can come up with when answering the question \'why did Oov get the better of him?\'.

4. Oov (July 11th 2003 ~ Aug 29th 2004)

v T: 32 wins 16 losses (66.7%)
v Z: 20 wins 3 losses (87%)
v P: 22 wins 7 losses (75.9%)
Total: 74 wins 26 losses (74%)

I have the hardest time explaining Oov\'s success (the best I can come up with is that he understood macromanagement better than anyone else at the time). His numbers are actually buffed up higher than it seems because he had instantaneous success compared to other gamers. He beat players left and right when he was an anonimity, and his winning percentage dropped to appropriate levels with each passing year.

5. Savior

Ok. It\'s clear that the four previous players now have their best days behind them. There are two periods for Savior, and even these two slots might not show him in the best light since he could do even better to increase his percentage.

a) (Feb 12th 2005 ~ sometime in 2006)

The guy who organised most of these statistics, altair, didn\'t really specify time line. I would guess the approximate date to be sometime after Savior beat Ra in the Pringles Season 2 finals.

v T: 21 wins 7 losses (75%)
v Z: 20 wins 13 losses (60.6%)
v P: 28 wins 11 losses (71.8%)
Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)

This is the early stage of Savior\'s career at the beginning of which he had yet to be recognized as a top class gamer.

b) (March 4th 2006 ~ Feb 16th 2007)

v T: 31 wins 15 losses (67.3%)
v Z: 20 wins 6 losses (76.9%)
v P: 25 wins 3 losses (89.3%)
Total: 76 wins 24 losses (76%)

As you all know 2006 has been Savior\'s best year by far. Depending on his results in the future, reaching 90% winning percentage versus protoss and 80% winning percentage versus zerg could be the mind boggling feat he achieves. He still does great against terran, but exposure to top class opposition over a period of time and the ever present terran favouring maps took its toll.

So there you have it. If we exclude Grrrr, because his era of dominance is hard to compare with others, you can see that there\'s hardly any difference (69, 70, 74, 76 wins out of 100 respectively) between the four programmers. The scary thing is though, Savior\'s winning percentage is increasing as time passes by, and it's already highest out of the five already.


Awesome post, thanks a lot. One thing though, change "programmer" to "progamer". Programmers are people who write programs.
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
wXs.Havok
Profile Joined October 2006
Argentina529 Posts
February 21 2007 22:51 GMT
#115
boxer is the greatest.

Altho im a zerg/savior fan.
Read this and you`re gay
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
February 21 2007 23:20 GMT
#116
On February 22 2007 06:30 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2007 02:48 Letmelose wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
In my opinion the greatest starcraft players list can be narrowed down to 5 players. Grrrr, Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior. Other players like Yellow, Ra and July are great in their own right, but fall short when you compare them to these 5 gods of starcraft.

Grrrr was not only the greatest foreign player ever, but dominated the early Korean programming scene. He came to Korea as the famous ladder gosu everybody knew and befuddled the best that Korea had to offer with his random play (he only selected protoss when he was in trouble which goes to show how far ahead he considered himself to be). Not only did he get astronomical tournament winnings, which by the way were the only source of income for programmers back then, his annual tournament winnings back then are still comparable to the tournament winnings of top gamers today.

Boxer is boxer. I\'ll skip him. Nada as all of you know has accomplished more than any other programmer. Oov ended Nada\'s era and took his level of domination one step further. And as of now Savior is the man to beat.

How do we compare these players? Well, there are a lot of ways. One way is to take a segment of career when these players were at their peak (their best 100 consecutive games), and compare them statistically. Of course there are a lot of factors, but I believe that as far as comparing goes, this way isn\'t too bad. I got the sources from pgr21 and other Korean starcraft community sites, I\'m pretty sure these numbers are accurate.

1. Grrrr (Feb 16th 2000 ~ April 27th 2001)

v T: 7 wins 0 loses (100%)
v Z: 22 wins 16 losses (57.9%)
v P: 3 wins 5 losses (37.5%)
Total: 32 wins 21 losses (60.4%)

Grrrr played in an era when there were less televised matches then today and he was notorious for practicing less than he should and his era quickly came to an end. I think the guy who organized the statistics had to stretch out Grrrr\'s peak era because he didn\'t play enough games, thus the numbers don\'t look too impressive. But if you look at the televised matches from 1999 to 2000, Grrrr had the most number of wins as well as the best winning percentage.

2. Boxer (Feb 16th 2001 ~ Aug 30th 2002)

v T: 15 wins 8 losses (65.2%)
v Z: 35 wins 13 losses (72.9%)
v P: 19 wins 10 losses (65.5%)
Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)

Boxer was famous even before his era of domination for his creative play. I guess his best display of domination can be seen in WCG 2001, where he won the whole tournmaent without losing a single game, and that's including the preliminaries. He said it himself, he practiced not so that he would win, but so that he would win in style. There may be better players than Boxer, but I don\'t think we\'ll ever see a bigger icon than him.

3. Nada (April 25th 2002 ~ March 13th 2003)

v T: 15 wins 9 losses (62.5%)
v Z: 33 wins 15 losses (68.8%)
v P: 22 wins 8 losses (78.6%)
Total: 70 wins 30 losses (70%)

The boy genius. This guy was made for starcraft. No weak match ups, a ridiculously high apm and the ability to just look at Boxer\'s replays and copy them without breaking a sweat (Nada was titled genius after he managed to absorb build orders which Boxer took days of hard thinking to make). He was the gosu amateur who beat programmers, and then he became the greatest of them all, perhaps even better than Boxer himself. He seems to be slightly restricted in his play, despite his \'freestyle\' way of playing, which is the only reason I can come up with when answering the question \'why did Oov get the better of him?\'.

4. Oov (July 11th 2003 ~ Aug 29th 2004)

v T: 32 wins 16 losses (66.7%)
v Z: 20 wins 3 losses (87%)
v P: 22 wins 7 losses (75.9%)
Total: 74 wins 26 losses (74%)

I have the hardest time explaining Oov\'s success (the best I can come up with is that he understood macromanagement better than anyone else at the time). His numbers are actually buffed up higher than it seems because he had instantaneous success compared to other gamers. He beat players left and right when he was an anonimity, and his winning percentage dropped to appropriate levels with each passing year.

5. Savior

Ok. It\'s clear that the four previous players now have their best days behind them. There are two periods for Savior, and even these two slots might not show him in the best light since he could do even better to increase his percentage.

a) (Feb 12th 2005 ~ sometime in 2006)

The guy who organised most of these statistics, altair, didn\'t really specify time line. I would guess the approximate date to be sometime after Savior beat Ra in the Pringles Season 2 finals.

v T: 21 wins 7 losses (75%)
v Z: 20 wins 13 losses (60.6%)
v P: 28 wins 11 losses (71.8%)
Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)

This is the early stage of Savior\'s career at the beginning of which he had yet to be recognized as a top class gamer.

b) (March 4th 2006 ~ Feb 16th 2007)

v T: 31 wins 15 losses (67.3%)
v Z: 20 wins 6 losses (76.9%)
v P: 25 wins 3 losses (89.3%)
Total: 76 wins 24 losses (76%)

As you all know 2006 has been Savior\'s best year by far. Depending on his results in the future, reaching 90% winning percentage versus protoss and 80% winning percentage versus zerg could be the mind boggling feat he achieves. He still does great against terran, but exposure to top class opposition over a period of time and the ever present terran favouring maps took its toll.

So there you have it. If we exclude Grrrr, because his era of dominance is hard to compare with others, you can see that there\'s hardly any difference (69, 70, 74, 76 wins out of 100 respectively) between the four programmers. The scary thing is though, Savior\'s winning percentage is increasing as time passes by, and it's already highest out of the five already.


Awesome post, thanks a lot. One thing though, change "programmer" to "progamer". Programmers are people who write programs.


You know what? For the longest time I've been reading 'progamers' on this site as 'programmers' for some inexplicable reason. It really confused the hell out of me at first, I thought that people on tl called progamers 'programmers' because gamers moved onto programming after their career was over or something. The funny thing is I actually checked my post once for typos and never actually thought twice about the progamer/programmer thing -_- pretty embarassing hehe.
TL+ Member
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-02-21 23:31:26
February 21 2007 23:30 GMT
#117
A couple questions I think should be considered (that I don't know the answer to >_<):

Did people think that the old-school maps, on the whole, were imbalanced to favor Terran? Also, would people consider them imbalanced today given modern strategies and build orders?

edit: It took me a couple days to realize the word was "progamer" rather than "programmer" too.
gg_hertzz
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
2152 Posts
February 21 2007 23:30 GMT
#118
i really think the best way to resolve this, is to actually come up with individual areas, compare them, and see who comes out on top. saying who is 'the greatest ever' or the most influential ever is subjective, but if you can as who has the most osl wins, 2nd places, influneced the most, that sorta thing you can pretty much getter a more accurate picture.
GrandInquisitor *
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
New York City13113 Posts
February 21 2007 23:32 GMT
#119

For me personaly the 5 most IMPORTANT gamers for SC/BW have been :

1. Boxer
2. NaDa
3. Savior
4. Oov
5. Grrrr...


bullshit

oov introduced a whole new style of play and practically invented the modern macro era. grr jumpstarted professional gaming. savior has achieved none of that.....yet
What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero?
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
February 22 2007 00:26 GMT
#120
Ok, my personal lists...
The players that brought the most change to the way how BW is played are:
1. Boxer
2. Oov
3. July
4. Garmito

In terms of domination and achievements:
1. Nada
2. Oov
3. Saviour
4. Boxer
I'll call Nada.
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