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Throughout the history of Starcraft Pro-gaming many kings have risen and fallen..
We talk of domination of Saviour at the moment but we all know that he won't be reigning as king forever. So in the end, overall achievement is what matters the most.
Over the years most dominantly there has been Freemura era, Giyom era, Boxer era, Nada era, Julyzerg era, Iloveoov era and currently is the Saviour era.... Let's take a moment to think about who's the greatest player of all times.. I had to translate all the awards from Korean to English so some of them may not be accurate.
According to Uzoo, (from 1999) *May not be up to date
1st Nada Pantech EX 774.4 1370.8 383 29.2 2557.4 2nd Boxer SK텔레콤 T1 1346.8 580.7 -7.8 415.4 2335.1 3rd Yellow KTF Magicⓝs 1055.2 659.7 21 112.8 1848.7 4th Iloveoov SK텔레콤 T1 811.2 891.8 0 31.2 1734.2 5th Julyzerg MBC게임 HERO 908.4 248.2 0 25 1181.6 6th Xellos CJ ENTUS 565 226.4 96.9 202.2 1090.5 7th Chojja KTF Magicⓝs 212.4 687 95.1 20 1014.5 8th Nal_ra KTF Magicⓝs 538.8 420.6 48 1 1008.4 9th Reach KTF Magicⓝs 756.6 226.8 -4.3 1.8 980.9 10th Gorush SK텔레콤 T1 427 430.8 0 52 909.8 11th HOTforever 은퇴 373.4 316.2 121.5 4.4 815.5 12th Kingdom SK텔레콤 T1 422 257.4 87.1 -0.4 766.1 13th Grrrr 은퇴 456.4 1.3 21 65 543.7 14th Mumyung SK텔레콤 T1 79 444 -17.4 10.6 516.2 15th Garimto 은퇴 506.8 0 -0.5 -0.8 505.5 16th Saviour CJ ENTUS 51.2 441 0 0 492.2
I have excluded all Team play wins and pro-league wins from the awards
Saviour
2005 Uzoo MSL win 2006 CYON MSL second 2006 Pringles MSL win 2006 Pringles MSL season 2 win 2006 3rd Superfight win
2007 OSL finalist
Julyzerg
2003 iTV Amateur tournament win 2003 KizooRodeo walk 2nd Starleague win 2003 iTV Rookie tournament 3rd 2004 Gillete OSL win 2004 iTV ranking 7th deciding tournament win 2005 KT-KTF premier league win (all leagues combined) 2005 EVER OSL win 2005 IOPS OSL 2nd 2006 Shinhan OSL 2nd
Iloveoov
2003 TG Sambo MSL win 2003 ITV gamespecial Rookie tournament winiTV 2003 Airwalk National Amateur tournament win 2004 Hanoforce Sengame MSL win 2004 Gillete OSL 3rd 2004 7th ITV ranking tournament 2nd 2004 Spris MSL win 2004 EVER OSL win 2005 So1 OSL 3rd 2006 CYON MSL 3rd 2006 Shinhan OSL win 2006 WCG2006 win
Nada
2nd Megapass Cybergame Grand Prix league win
1st Samsung Magicstation WCG win
2001 KPGA TOUR 4th league win 2002 KPGA TOUR 2nd league win 2002 KPGA TOUR 3rd league win 2003 Panasonic OSL win 2003 ghemTV 3rd Starleague win 2003 Hotbreak Ongamenet masters OSL win 2003 Byurook market FindAll challenger open Starleague 2nd 2003 Stout MSL 2nd 2003 TG Sambo MSL 3rd 2004 KTF BIgi premier league win 2004 KT-KTF Premier league combined championship win 2004 Hanaforce Sengame MSL 2nd 2005 IOPS OSL win 2006 Shinhan OSL season 2 win 2007 OSL finalist
Boxer
1999 1st SBS Multi Game Championship win 2000 Samsung Digital KIGL King of Kings win 2000 M.police Game league win 2001 The 1st World Cyber Games win 2001 Coca Cola OSL win 2001 Hanbit Soft OSL win 2001 3rd Game-Q starleague win 2001 Zzgame.com Progamer 32 invite win 2002 World Cyber Games win 2002 KPGA TOUR 1st league win 2003 KTF Bigi 4 Kings win 2003 EC KPGA Tour Winner's championship 2nd
2003 Olympus OSL 3rd
2003 Toona BIG 4 SPECIAL win 2004 KT Megapass Nespot Premierleauge win 2004 KT-KTF Premier leauge combined championship 2nd 2004 EVER OSL 2nd 2005 Sneakers All star league 2nd round 3rd 2005 So1 OSL 2nd Xellos
2002 pgr21.com tournament win 2002 2nd Ongamenet challenge leauge 1st 2003 Olympus OSL win 2004 KTF Bigi Premier leauge 2nd 2004 WCG win 2005 EVER OSL 3rd
Yellow
KT OSL king of kings win
2000 GameRacer MeSa 2nd
2000 Battle Top 2nd Chunggang 3rd 2000 Gamei Captain league win 2000 iTV Hangame Survival league win
2001 Hanbit SOft KPGA Winner's Championship win 2001 PSB Megapass Cyber Grand Prix league 1st 2001 Ongamenet Star King selection league 3rd 2001 iTV Rookie tournament 1st 2001 GameBugs Championship 1st 2001 Coca Cola OSL 2nd 2002 WCG Progamer selection 1st 2002 KPGA Tour 1st and 2nd league 2nd 2002 WCG 2nd 2003 KTEC KPGA Tour Winner's Championship win 2003 Byurook Market FindAll Challenger Open Starleague win 2003 iTV Starcraft Ranking deciding tournament 5th league win
2003 MBC Yeo Soo 4 Kings win 2003 Olympus OSL 2nd 2003 TG Sambo MSL 2nd 2004 KT-KTF Premierleague KT Official League 2nd 2005 Sneakers MBC All star league win 2006 Shinhan OSL season 1 3rd
Grrrr (Guillaum Patry)
PGL Season 4 win Blizzard World championship win Seul Ki Bang invite win i2e2 Starleague win Crazio 8 All Stars win SBS Starleague win KBS Conet Stargleague win Hanaro Tooniverse Starleague win 2000 Ongamenet Kings of Kings win 2001 WCG Canada 1st 2002 1st GhemTV Starleague 2nd 2003 WCG 3rd
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Grrr is ranked 13th still? Wow, amazing.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
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They should add the CJ event where he won singlehandedly for his team. It was HIS win more than it was a team win.
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On February:17 Locke. wrote: They should add the CJ event where he won singlehandedly for his team. It was HIS win more than it was a team win. he excluded superfight adn stuff, i think that was it
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Well, mumyung did qualify to a LOT of big leagues. Which in itself is an achievement. He just never went far in them.
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Mumyung is actually quiet old school..
2000 Jeonbook Ghetto League win 2000 i-touch017 league (4 consecutive wins) 2000 Jeonbook Western Sea University League win 2001 E-notes Captain League win 2001 zzgame Challenger League win 2002 KPGA Winner's Championship win 2003 iTV Staracraft Ranking Deciding 5th League 2nd
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On February 18 2007 08:17 Locke. wrote: They should add the CJ event where he won singlehandedly for his team. It was HIS win more than it was a team win. oh comeon, it was just 3 bo1 wins -.- not that noteworthy in terms of accomplishments
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On February 18 2007 08:18 Pressure wrote:Show nested quote +On February:17 Locke. wrote: They should add the CJ event where he won singlehandedly for his team. It was HIS win more than it was a team win. he excluded superfight adn stuff, i think that was it
Well I didn't exclude superfight win from Saviour.. otherwise his list is too short.. T.T
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Grrr #1, fuck all the other 
nah, cool ranking
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
actually its me.
I am the best around, and nobody is ever going to hold me down.
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fuck all haters, mumyung #1
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Yellow achievement's list is the longest, he's the best, i always knew it!!!
Seriously, that's a very good list, thanks a lot. I'd like to know the meaning of all the numbers in front of the names, can you provide us that?
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For me BoxeR is the best player of all time.
His achievements list is very long and very impressive, and makes a strong case for him.
But a list of achievements ie top 4 finishes in tourneys shouldnt be the only criteria to decide the greatest player of all time. Boxer did a lot of shit that wouldnt show up in a list like that, he changed how the game was played in many ways, more than any other player has influenced it, and he was a major force behind starcraft exploding as a professional game in Korea.
Go Boxer!
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On February 18 2007 08:37 Ryp wrote: sAviOr not saviour
Of all the players listed above, you've only noticed his id being mentioned inaccurately? Translation itself takes a lot of time.. as if I will care about gamer ID's upper and lower caps.. In Korea we all call them by their real names anyway..
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I never knew yellow had so many accomplishments :S thanks 1tym.
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Ryp deserve a punch to the face.
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Hey 1tym I couldnt figure out what the figures in the first table represent. Could you please tell me?
<3
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Braavos36372 Posts
these lists really can't be used as comparisons, if you look at lets say iloveoov's and savior's lists they are more recent, harder starleagues whereas Yellow's list is filled with shit like "2000 GameRacer MeSa 2nd, 2000 Battle Top 2nd Chunggang 3rd, 2000 Gamei Captain league win, or ITV rookie tournament win" who cares if he got 2nd in some random tournament in 2000 when progaming wasn't developed yet.
nada's are far more impressive with his recent success, and his career clearly has been the best of all time. nobody seems to mention that boxer's OSL finals record is pretty bad. after boxer's two starleague wins in like 2000/2001, he's lost 4 straight finals (garimto, reach, oov, anytime), making him 3-4, if you include his MSL win in 2002.
for comparison's sake, in starleague finals, Nada is 6-3 (with 1 OSL pending), oov is 5-0, and savior is 3-1 (with 2 pending). these guys also have won during the modern era, when competition was the toughest.
oov and savior have had the most amazing periods of dominance. savior has achieved probably the highest level of brood war ever played. nada has the best career. nobody is discounting Boxer or Yellow or Grrrr's contributions to the beginnings of BW, but their careers simply cannot be compared. it is SO much harder to win now than before.
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On February 18 2007 09:10 Gandalf wrote: Hey 1tym I couldnt figure out what the figures in the first table represent. Could you please tell me?
<3
Figures represents win points from various tournaments/leagues..
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[GG99]SlayeR is greatest player of all time.
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It's impossible to compare any players on a symmetrical level anyway because later the era, tougher it will become. In last 2 years, number of registered pro-gamers doubled. I don't see it decreasing any moment. If that's the case, then we may just have to refer to the latest tournament winner and call him the greatest of all times. But then the winners will always change so we won't get any 'true' champions in the end.
The definition "The greatest of all times" does not necessarily connote the competition level, it just means greatest at the time of the player's era.
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Braavos36372 Posts
1tym did a great job translating all of this, but the highlights really can be shortened to:
Saviour 2005 Uzoo MSL win 2006 CYON MSL second 2006 Pringles MSL win 2006 Pringles MSL season 2 win 2007 Shinhan3 OSL finalist 2007 GOMTV MSL finalist
Julyzerg 2004 Gillete OSL win 2005 EVER OSL win 2005 IOPS OSL 2nd 2006 Shinhan OSL 2nd Iloveoov 2003 TG Sambo MSL win 2004 Hanoforce Sengame MSL win 2004 Spris MSL win 2004 EVER OSL win 2006 Shinhan OSL win 2006 WCG2006 win
Nada 2001 KPGA TOUR 4th league win 2002 KPGA TOUR 2nd league win 2002 KPGA TOUR 3rd league win 2003 Panasonic OSL win 2003 ghemTV 3rd Starleague win 2003 Stout MSL 2nd 2004 Hanaforce Sengame MSL 2nd 2005 IOPS OSL win 2006 Shinhan OSL season 2 win 2007 OSL finalist
Boxer 2001 The 1st World Cyber Games win 2001 Coca Cola OSL win 2001 Hanbit Soft OSL win 2001 SKY1 OSL 2nd 2002 World Cyber Games win 2002 SKY2 OSL 2nd 2003 KTEC KPGA (MSL) 2nd 2004 EVER OSL 2nd 2005 So1 OSL 2nd Xellos 2003 Olympus OSL win 2004 WCG win
Yellow 2001 Coca Cola OSL 2nd 2003 Olympus OSL 2nd 2003 KTEC KPGA (MSL) win
Grrrr (Guillaum Patry) 99/00 Hanaro Communication Tooniverse win
the snickers all star or masters or superfights should not really be included
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So close between Nada and Savior. Those two are truly champions of all time. As previously mentioned, it is SO much harder to win now than before. I am absolutely shocked by Savior's double final entry, and Savior vs Nada will truly be epic. I'm sure both of them will practice for this more than anything imaginable...
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Braavos36372 Posts
On February 18 2007 09:35 1tym wrote: It's impossible to compare any players on a symmetrical level anyway because later the era, tougher it will become. In last 2 years, number of registered pro-gamers doubled. I don't see it decreasing any moment. If that's the case, then we may just have to refer to the latest tournament winner and call him the greatest of all times. But then the winners will always change so we won't get any 'true' champions in the end.
The definition "The greatest of all times" does not necessarily connote the competition level, it just means greatest at the time of the player's era. you are right, but to an extent. but nada has been the greatest in two, possibly three eras, and i think that justifies putting him at a level above oov, savior, boxer, or july. yellow or xellos should not even be mentioned in the same breath as those four.
if savior manages to win an osl or two, that would put him in serious contention with NaDa for the best career of all time.
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On February 18 2007 09:39 exalted wrote: So close between Nada and Savior. Those two are truly champions of all time. As previously mentioned, it is SO much harder to win now than before. I am absolutely shocked by Savior's double final entry, and Savior vs Nada will truly be epic. I'm sure both of them will practice for this more than anything imaginable... I agree that it's harder to win now than it was in previous years, but until savior actually wins an OSL you can't really put him in front of oov (3 MSL + 2 OSL + WCG vs 3 MSL + 0 OSL + 0 WCG).
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United Arab Emirates5091 Posts
hm pretty interesting compilation of all their achievements
i have a feeling savior is gona get a long list soon and it is only gona get longer =D
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It's the player of ALL Time, if NaDa can play like this a this moment is because of Boxer 
So i'll stay with GARIMTO and SlayerS`_BoxeR`
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On February 18 2007 09:41 NuclearAntelope wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2007 09:39 exalted wrote: So close between Nada and Savior. Those two are truly champions of all time. As previously mentioned, it is SO much harder to win now than before. I am absolutely shocked by Savior's double final entry, and Savior vs Nada will truly be epic. I'm sure both of them will practice for this more than anything imaginable... I agree that it's harder to win now than it was in previous years, but until savior actually wins an OSL you can't really put him in front of oov (3 MSL + 2 OSL + WCG vs 3 MSL + 0 OSL + 0 WCG).
Yeah I agree... I think many people are forgetting about the Oov era.. Oov at the time of domination was a freakin monster.. He had as much force as Saviour now has..
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Braavos36372 Posts
i agree. its also hard to put him in front of Boxer or July given that they are multiple OSL winners.
right now i'd say it's Nada, then oov, then boxer/july/savior in some order.
IF savior wins both finals in the next two weeks, it'll be Nada, then oov/savior.
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Man, it's close between Savior and Nada... I'd give Savior more time, as his lists of accomplishments are EXPLODING at the moment...
Boxer, on the other hand, is just in a class of his own... You can't really compare him to other progamers.
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Braavos36372 Posts
you easily can compare boxer to other progamers. his style and personality and presence and pure watchability (the WOW moments) is unrivaled, and he's done so much for BW as an ambassador and pioneer, but his career accomplishments can easily be weighed against other progamers and unfortunately his career, strictly accomplishment wise, is no longer the best. Nada and oov clearly have better resumes.
however, we all know that Boxer's career cannot and should not be measured this way =)
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
i think the combination of july and oov is singlehandedly responsible for the lack of protoss today. they dealt the race of aiur such a bodyblow in their dominating periods =(
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
I think purely achievement wise, NaDa is the greatest player. However, I feel that Boxer should be the greatest player if you take into account all he has done for SC and all the time it took him to popularize SC in Korea. He could've been practicing in all that time. I'm sure he would've won more tournaments if he had just practiced 24/7 without caring about his fans. But he does, and that's what makes him great in my books.
Savior just might take the title away from NaDa if he can continue to dominate though.  After 20 months of dominance, he can change races to Terran, then after another 20, to Protoss, then he can go random for another 40~
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Right now nada is definitely the greatest of all time. But If savior keeps winning the way he does then yea I'm sure he will pass him eventually. But its always the same argument when it comes to these things. The era they played in and the field of competition. ( ex. Is kobe better then jordan? or is Shaq better then Wilt) We will never know =[
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
The most accomplished yeah, but not "definitely the greatest", there is more to being great than being successful. Note that I am neither saying that Nada isn't great or saying that Boxer is necessarily the greatest, but just that saying Nada is "definitely the greatest" is a bit of a stretch.
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Boxer is obviously the greatest of all time. and I wouldn't try to argue with me unless you want slaughtered!
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Nada has been just as influential to bw as Boxer had been. Watch pro-games before Nada's dominance and notice how sloppy and inefficiently they played; even the elite players such as boxer, yellow, and garimto had terrible mechanics. That all changed when Nada came onto the scene. For better or worse, Nada's dominance changed starcraft into a much more macro oriented game, paving the way for players such as iloveoov and savior.
Sure Boxer had a ton of nice little tricks and moves that we can remember him by but he never really changed the way the game was played fundamentally. You could maybe argue that he changed the way terran was played at that time with his use of dropships and harass tactics and such, but Nada's influence is felt on every race in every matchup.
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well, my favourite player of all time is Boxer. But I think NADA Should be awarded the greatest player of all time.
Why? Because he is like an owner of a time machine. If you look at the beginning of SC Progaming in 2001 you can see him as a finalist, and if you look at the current most important tourney he is also a finalist. Its like "holy shit this guy was among the best playing against the dinossaurs and he is still fighting against global warming!". He had moments of slumping but never ceased to be a fuckign threat to ANY player in ANY era.
That's why my vote goes for Nada.
Savior is in an awesome momentum, but people forget too early. Maybe noone did ever dominate like he is doing right now, and if he continue like that for some more time maybe the Best Player Ever Title will be his.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On February 18 2007 11:25 ApollyoN wrote: Nada has been just as influential to bw as Boxer had been. Watch pro-games before Nada's dominance and notice how sloppy and inefficiently they played; even the elite players such as boxer, yellow, and garimto had terrible mechanics. That all changed when Nada came onto the scene. For better or worse, Nada's dominance changed starcraft into a much more macro oriented game, paving the way for players such as iloveoov and savior. terrible mechanics? not as good as now, but certainly not terrible -.-
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Watch, for instance, the nazgul vs boxer reps on this site. Those games represented top-level tvp but probably wouldnt even be at the level of a decent foreigner today.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
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i was hoping YellOw would make a comeback and actually win an OSL or something...i feel it would be kinda disappointing to be a really well known progamer and not win the OSL once during your career. can't help feeling a little sorry for the guy, since he's made it to so many finals.
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On February 18 2007 11:25 ApollyoN wrote:
Sure Boxer had a ton of nice little tricks and moves that we can remember him by but he never really changed the way the game was played fundamentally.
boxer was playing in the micro era. He did change starcraft. WIll all his unorthodox build he was the master of cheese.
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On February 18 2007 11:35 RtS)Night[Mare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2007 11:25 ApollyoN wrote:
Sure Boxer had a ton of nice little tricks and moves that we can remember him by but he never really changed the way the game was played fundamentally. boxer was playing in the micro era. He did change starcraft. WIll all his unorthodox build he was the master of cheese. If thats all you look at you're missing the big picture. Nada's influence can be seen in pretty much every player that is playing today. What did boxer do that changed how p or z was played? He didn't; his mark on the game was a style that was successful for a couple of years, but his gimmicks couldnt work after Nada changed the game, from about late 2002 until now.
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Being the greatest isn't just about achievements, little tricks and what not. It's about being Charismatic, and being a people's champion. It's about not just playing a game, but being one with the game.
Loving the game as if it was your lover. you can tell by the way Boxer writes, that he is truly in love with the game. In his interviews a lot of times, he will donate his games to his fans, not playing to win, but playing to entertain them in the best possible way.
No matter how hard anti Boxer fans will put down his achievements or his legacy, boxer will always be talked about no matter what, because that is how GREAT he is.
That is what I call the Greatest.
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wow @ Grrr ranking.. impressive.
but still, Nal_Ra is and will always be the best Starcraft player to me.
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On February 18 2007 11:08 Carnac wrote: The most accomplished yeah, but not "definitely the greatest", there is more to being great than being successful. Note that I am neither saying that Nada isn't great or saying that Boxer is necessarily the greatest, but just that saying Nada is "definitely the greatest" is a bit of a stretch.
When i said definitely the greatest. I meant it on his accomplishments only since everyone above me was showing there achievements and accomplishments
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Oov was fucking monster, but Nada deserves more. Edit: Woot, I'm a vulture
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yeah oov was so fucking SCARY, lol
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If sAviOr wins this osl and msl with this imba maps he is the greatest player of all times.
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On February 18 2007 11:55 Sacajawea wrote: Being the greatest isn't just about achievements, little tricks and what not. It's about being Charismatic, and being a people's champion. It's about not just playing a game, but being one with the game.
Loving the game as if it was your lover. you can tell by the way Boxer writes, that he is truly in love with the game. In his interviews a lot of times, he will donate his games to his fans, not playing to win, but playing to entertain them in the best possible way.
No matter how hard anti Boxer fans will put down his achievements or his legacy, boxer will always be talked about no matter what, because that is how GREAT he is.
That is what I call the Greatest.
I was about to post pretty much that except you're far better than me at putting it into words.
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Um shouldn't Savior be higher ranked than Giyom?
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On February 18 2007 11:22 Sacajawea wrote: Boxer is obviously the greatest of all time. and I wouldn't try to argue with me unless you want slaughtered! damn straight D:
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Very hard to compare Boxer to others somehow.. But anyway Nada is easily the best player of all times and currently no mather how you judge.
He won the last OSL. In the final of this one.. Look at his records and how he dominated the Boxer back then... I really hope he beats Savior in this final to seal the case..
If Savior wins then he is the best player right now, but Nada is still greatest ever
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On February 18 2007 14:25 Patriot.dlk wrote: Very hard to compare Boxer to others somehow.. But anyway Nada is easily the best player of all times and currently no mather how you judge.
Imho there's a (subtile) difference between "best of all time" and "greatest of all time". I agree that Nada's been the most achieved and probably the most skillful player ever (even though other players might claim that title in the long run too, esp. Savior, but Oov too if he can overcome his slump). But in the word "great" there's imho something wider than that, something definitely more subjective too, which Sacajawea described pretty well in his post.
The combined charisma, skills, extreme consistency, "wow factor", effect on progaming, effect on the game itself, all these things (plus tons more) make Boxer the greatest ever to me, and by a pretty significant margin.
Btw (unrelated to what I've just written),
Look at his records and how he dominated the Boxer back then...
He didn't really dominate Boxer. They actually haven't met much in very important games. Only series I can remember is the KT-KTF final which Nada won. Overall Boxer still has a (slightly) winning record vs him.
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On February 18 2007 13:33 One Page Memory wrote:Oov was fucking monster, but Nada deserves more.
Damn, I don't even think Savior has those kind of winning rates (except in ZvP maybe). Fucking scary. T_T
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nice ranking nice to see Grrr still there .
Go draco? xD
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On February 18 2007 08:21 Carnac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2007 08:17 Locke. wrote: They should add the CJ event where he won singlehandedly for his team. It was HIS win more than it was a team win. oh comeon, it was just 3 bo1 wins -.- not that noteworthy in terms of accomplishments
Looking at some of these accomplishments it is easily on par imho.
Even though Savior's list is short there just isn't that much filler. I mean look at Mumyungs list... University league win? What the fuck does that mean? He beat some college kids who had a tournament? aaaaaaa
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Osaka27128 Posts
On February 18 2007 11:25 ApollyoN wrote:
Sure Boxer had a ton of nice little tricks and moves that we can remember him by but he never really changed the way the game was played fundamentally.
This is the dumbest thing I have ever read. It saddens me that you have been on this site for so long but have failed to learn anything.
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On February 18 2007 14:51 PoP wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2007 14:25 Patriot.dlk wrote: Very hard to compare Boxer to others somehow.. But anyway Nada is easily the best player of all times and currently no mather how you judge.
Imho there's a (subtile) difference between "best of all time" and "greatest of all time". I agree that Nada's been the most achieved and probably the most skillful player ever (even though other players might claim that title in the long run too, esp. Savior, but Oov too if he can overcome his slump). But in the word "great" there's imho something wider than that, something definitely more subjective too, which Sacajawea described pretty well in his post. The combined charisma, skills, extreme consistency, "wow factor", effect on progaming, effect on the game itself, all these things (plus tons more) make Boxer the greatest ever to me, and by a pretty significant margin. Btw (unrelated to what I've just written), He didn't really dominate Boxer. They actually haven't met much in very important games. Only series I can remember is the KT-KTF final which Nada won. Overall Boxer still has a (slightly) winning record vs him.
I agree with you 100%. I meant exactly that when I said you cant compare with boxer.. Thanks for correcting in the mather of nada vs boxer. I just remeberered that Nada pretty much beat him every time after Nada began to be dominant but I dont remember this very well so I assume you are correct=)
I do however think that it's pretty damn hard to be more best ever then Nada considering how way back he actually goes and he's not done yet=)
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I would go with Boxer.
Boxer practically pioneered progaming in Korea.
It was Boxer who showed the world how Starcraft could and should be played, It was Boxer who attracted interest from investors for progaming.
If Boxer never existed, Starcraft might have been long dead by now. Without Boxer, there would be no Nada, no Oov, no Savior, no anyone.
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On February 18 2007 15:49 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2007 11:25 ApollyoN wrote:
Sure Boxer had a ton of nice little tricks and moves that we can remember him by but he never really changed the way the game was played fundamentally. This is the dumbest thing I have ever read. It saddens me that you have been on this site for so long but have failed to learn anything. Maybe, but what are some specific examples disproving this? What elements about the game today can we directly trace back to boxer's influence, and how are these better than someone like Garimto's or TheMarine's (who probably had just as much influence on how terran is played as boxer)? And im not just talking about popularizing the bunker rush against yellow or something like that. I'll admit I dont follow progaming as closely as a lot of people on this site seem to but I dont get the hero worship still surrounding Boxer, who has basically been a yellow in the modern era. I also know this probably isnt the most popular stance here
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Just wait til Boxer comes back...
And all those recent 2nd place OSLs have to have meaning. -_-;; But it's ok.. just wait til he's back. Just wait.
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On February 18 2007 15:49 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2007 11:25 ApollyoN wrote:
Sure Boxer had a ton of nice little tricks and moves that we can remember him by but he never really changed the way the game was played fundamentally. This is the dumbest thing I have ever read. It saddens me that you have been on this site for so long but have failed to learn anything.
Awsome quote to say. I laughed, but it's very true.
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dang sc tourney back in 1999? boxer i think was the most consistent until 2006 but he was/is still popular that year, with nice moves. he'll be back though like garimto
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
Was it not boxer who set the standard for marine medic control that has influenced all terran players that have come after him?
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Boxer is the king 
That title should no be set by statistics, Boxer show the whole world how to play starcraft. Many times.
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Boxer is the only Terran i respect.
Mainly cause he plays micro/aggressive style, and the occasional cheese. Terran these days are all macro pussies, by fast expanding every single game.
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Legionnaire.
But I'm biased, since he doesn't act like a pompous ass when I try to talk to him on MSN.
So yeah.
Oh, last night there was someone on my favorite CS:S server with the name "Grrr...."
He didn't respond to GiYoM, so I ripped him a new one for stealing his ID. Everyone thinks I'm a psychopath now. :/
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Call me a Savior fanboy, but if Savior wins both starleagues, he surely moves up the #1 on this list.
I mean we all know how hard it is just to qualify for one of these tournaments, let alone win one, and for Savior to win both simultaneously would be something you will probably never see again in BW progaming.
For the sake of discussion though, here's my list as of now: Nada Oov Savior/July/Boxer
Boxer is defintely the most influential gamer of all time though. Hands down.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
was i the only one that thought the OP was going to be some random with 8 posts saying "omg savior is gooood"
on a more serious note, imo it really depends on what your looking for. Accomplishments? probably nada/boxer. Most innovative? i would say Ra, just because he seems to pull off insane builds without moving any muscles in his face or makuing facial features Done most for E-sports (sc related) - obviously the emporer
....ok boxer it is
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On February 18 2007 19:38 RowdierBob wrote: Call me a Savior fanboy, but if Savior wins both starleagues, he surely moves up the #1 on this list. would not enough for #1 yet he'd be tied with oov for major titles (and that even excludes oov's wcg win as well as the fact that oov has 2 osl titles and not one) and below nada
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Strictly on accomplishments (important ones) it has to be Nada. Nobody's won more of the SL's than him. 2nd rate tournaments shouldn't count. Boxer would win on Influentiality but that should be considered seperately imo.
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Forget the fact of how many he has won, but how he won it.
I mean, to win both at the same time, is something we never thought would have been possible. Has anyone even got close to such a feat before?
To win both major leagues at a time when competition is as hard as it is, shows just how good Savior is imo.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
oov also won osl and msl season that were running at the same time, except that the finals were not quite as close together
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I stand corrected then.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
and it's not like the competition was any significantly weaker in 2004 
savior is certainly making quite a statement at the moment though :p
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
well hard to say, especially across race, but nada is up there, so are savior, boxer and oov.
agree with hotbid for the most part
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On February 18 2007 16:03 ApollyoN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2007 15:49 Manifesto7 wrote:On February 18 2007 11:25 ApollyoN wrote:
Sure Boxer had a ton of nice little tricks and moves that we can remember him by but he never really changed the way the game was played fundamentally. This is the dumbest thing I have ever read. It saddens me that you have been on this site for so long but have failed to learn anything. Maybe, but what are some specific examples disproving this? What elements about the game today can we directly trace back to boxer's influence, and how are these better than someone like Garimto's or TheMarine's (who probably had just as much influence on how terran is played as boxer)? And im not just talking about popularizing the bunker rush against yellow or something like that. I'll admit I dont follow progaming as closely as a lot of people on this site seem to but I dont get the hero worship still surrounding Boxer, who has basically been a yellow in the modern era. I also know this probably isnt the most popular stance here 
boxers dropship play, his tvz, his tvt.
Hes basically influenced terran completely.
While I agree themarine was great too (started that whole turret everywhere around the map) boxer made terran into what it was for years. Terran was considered fairly weak around the time boxer first started to dominate on the scene. Themarine was very good too then, but other than that you didnt have many people (st.eagle was pretty good too then)
Nada though is more influential overall though imo, he was the first terran to be really dominant at everymatchup (themarine was really good too, but not to the extent of nada)
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On February 18 2007 20:03 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2007 16:03 ApollyoN wrote:On February 18 2007 15:49 Manifesto7 wrote:On February 18 2007 11:25 ApollyoN wrote:
Sure Boxer had a ton of nice little tricks and moves that we can remember him by but he never really changed the way the game was played fundamentally. This is the dumbest thing I have ever read. It saddens me that you have been on this site for so long but have failed to learn anything. Maybe, but what are some specific examples disproving this? What elements about the game today can we directly trace back to boxer's influence, and how are these better than someone like Garimto's or TheMarine's (who probably had just as much influence on how terran is played as boxer)? And im not just talking about popularizing the bunker rush against yellow or something like that. I'll admit I dont follow progaming as closely as a lot of people on this site seem to but I dont get the hero worship still surrounding Boxer, who has basically been a yellow in the modern era. I also know this probably isnt the most popular stance here  boxers dropship play, his tvz, his tvt. Hes basically influenced terran completely. While I agree themarine was great too (started that whole turret everywhere around the map) boxer made terran into what it was for years. Terran was considered fairly weak around the time boxer first started to dominate on the scene. Themarine was very good too then, but other than that you didnt have many people (st.eagle was pretty good too then) Nada though is more influential overall though imo, he was the first terran to be really dominant at everymatchup ( themarine was really good too, but not to the extent of nada)
You seem tired.
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Strategies and micro-control aside, there is no doubt that Boxer helped significantly in arousing more interest toward Starcraft among the public in general. If it was not for Boxer, Starleague TV rating wouldn't have been what it is today. He was the first one to ever release Starcraft pro-gaming related DVD, He has more Daum cafe members than any other pop stars in Korea(except DBSK), He is being frequently mentioned in the media, He has been selected as pro gaming ambassador to promote various E-gaming events, He has been in number of Large Organisational TV ads and so on.. I think that alone is a greater achievement than any other OSL awards mentioned in this thread.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
oov dominated the scene in a way that was very similar to what Savior is doing now. He WAS literally unstoppable at one time, and then we all witnessed the birth of July, God of War.
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so i wanted to ask a question. since i started getting into the korean scene not too long ago, i don't know anything about mumyung... was he like super good?
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He's forgettable.
Boxer, Nada, Oov, pick one and argue in triangles. Gogo TL.net. If Savior wins the OSL, I guess we will have a square or something.
Seeing that Oov pic reminded me.. Oov was a fuckin God. Boxer is Boxer. He never dies. He is forever competitive. Nada proves he never dies either.
I pick Boxer simply because the number of memorable moments with Boxer is a lot more than anyone else in my head. Besides like.. Casy.. and maybe even Rainbow. Ahaah rainbow.
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Braavos36372 Posts
did you know...
Since Boxer lost to Garimto in SKY 2001, only Nal_rA and July have appeared in consecutive OSL finals. Both went 1-1, winning the year after they lost in the finals, then falling to the champions curse the next year.
Since Boxer in 2000-2001, nobody has won consecutive OSLs... Nada is about to attempt it.
Oov's period of domination ran from Fall 2003 to Fall 2004, where he won 3 MSLs and 1 OSL. He is 5-0 when he appears in the finals.
Savior has appeared in FIVE consecutive MSL finals, and if he makes the next MSL final, he will have dominated the MSL for two entire years.
NaDa is the only player to have won OSL+MSL in the same "season" (the finals were 3 weeks apart) but nobody has ever won the OSL+MSL with the games right on top of each other like Savior is attempting to do.
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Right now, it's safe to say that NaDa is #1. No question. SaviOr's current dominance is incredible, but in terms of career results, he's behind the likes of July, Boxer and Oov. I think if he manages to pull off winning the current OSL and MSL, then he will be right behind NaDa.
SaviOr's period of complete dominance is close to an end IMO. The Terran's seem to have figured him out to an extent. He definitely hasn't seemed invincible lately. It reminds me a lot of Oov when he was on top.
Is there a list of of career earnings anywhere? Because in the end, whichever of these guys makes off with the most loot is the real winner. I'm sure SaviOr is way behind old school guys like YellOw et all with regards to that. NaDa has got to be loaded considering all his tournament wins, plus his sweet contract with Pantech.
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On February 19 2007 00:40 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: oov dominated the scene in a way that was very similar to what Savior is doing now. He WAS literally unstoppable at one time, and then we all witnessed the birth of July, God of War.
Even if he did manage to rank #1, I've never felt July ever dominated the scnene... He was good and won 2 finals and made 2 second places in OSL and won KT-KTF. But he never did anything in MSL (not even top4). His record isn't so much better then Nal_Ra's for exemple who won 1 OSL, 1 MSL and made at least 2 finals.
The true dominent players have been Boxer for a while, then Nada with a Grand slam in 2002, then Oov with 3 MSL and 1 OSL win in like a year and a half (2nd OSL title came a bit later) and crazywin pourcentages and now we are seeing Savior with 5 MSL finals in a row and a shot for an OSL title.
Savior still has a bit to go to be on par with Nada in term of titles and Oov in term of winning ratio. As said, he is dominating but people will soon start to understand how to play him and even if he still stays n°1 he wont be as dominant for too long.
On February 19 2007 01:42 Hot_Bid wrote:
NaDa is the only player to have won OSL+MSL in the same "season" (the finals were 3 weeks apart) but nobody has ever won the OSL+MSL with the games right on top of each other like Savior is attempting to do.
3 weeks or 1 week apart is kind of the same thing... And Nada won his 2 finals 3-2 and 3-0, both against Chojja. We'll see what Savior can do
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As it stands right now. Nada is God. Savior is Jesus. And Boxer is Christianity.
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On February 19 2007 01:42 Hot_Bid wrote: did you know...
Since Boxer lost to Garimto in SKY 2001, only Nal_rA and July have appeared in consecutive OSL finals. Both went 1-1, winning the year after they lost in the finals, then falling to the champions curse the next year.
Since Boxer in 2000-2001, nobody has won consecutive OSLs... Nada is about to attempt it.
Oov's period of domination ran from Fall 2003 to Fall 2004, where he won 3 MSLs and 1 OSL. He is 5-0 when he appears in the finals.
Savior has appeared in FIVE consecutive MSL finals, and if he makes the next MSL final, he will have dominated the MSL for two entire years.
NaDa is the only player to have won OSL+MSL in the same "season" (the finals were 3 weeks apart) but nobody has ever won the OSL+MSL with the games right on top of each other like Savior is attempting to do.
Then savior isn't too far from best of all time but he still got things to prove.
On February 19 2007 08:34 MYM.Testie wrote: As it stands right now. Nada is God. Savior is Jesus. And Boxer is Christianity.
rofl.
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Norway10161 Posts
Boxer is most important because he did so much to promote progaming and starcraft. A boxer game is _always_ entertaining, for good or bad, and thus he will be remembered as the greatest. Nada is more accomplished, no doubt. He has no hole in his swing
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On February 19 2007 01:42 Hot_Bid wrote: did you know...
Since Boxer lost to Garimto in SKY 2001, only Nal_rA and July have appeared in consecutive OSL finals. Both went 1-1, winning the year after they lost in the finals, then falling to the champions curse the next year.
Since Boxer in 2000-2001, nobody has won consecutive OSLs... Nada is about to attempt it.
Oov's period of domination ran from Fall 2003 to Fall 2004, where he won 3 MSLs and 1 OSL. He is 5-0 when he appears in the finals.
Savior has appeared in FIVE consecutive MSL finals, and if he makes the next MSL final, he will have dominated the MSL for two entire years.
NaDa is the only player to have won OSL+MSL in the same "season" (the finals were 3 weeks apart) but nobody has ever won the OSL+MSL with the games right on top of each other like Savior is attempting to do. You have a couple of good points, just one small thing: there never even was the possibility to win MSL&OSL this closely together, simply because the finals have never been this closely together before Not trying to take anything away from savior, but it's still a fact.
On February 19 2007 02:15 muramasa wrote: Right now, it's safe to say that NaDa is #1. No question. SaviOr's current dominance is incredible, but in terms of career results, he's behind the likes of July, Boxer and Oov. I think if he manages to pull off winning the current OSL and MSL, then he will be right behind NaDa. He's not behind July, he's pretty much right next to him. July has 3 major titles (2 OSL titles and one KT KTF Premiere League title) plus 2 runner-ups in OSL.
Savior has 3 major titles (all MSL), 1 runner-up in MSL and two finals pending.
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I guess that's true, they are about even as far as results go. Getting to the OSL finals 4 times is pretty fucking impressive though. After these finals are over, unless SaviOr somehow manages to lose them both, he'll be ahead of July.
I still like July better.
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On February 18 2007 13:33 One Page Memory wrote:Oov was fucking monster, but Nada deserves more. Christ thats inhuman.
I think many people are forgetting that those percentages include individual games, not series. Oov wasn't just winning sets, he was winning them 2-0, 3-0 constantly. Golden bagels V_V.
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[GG99]SlayeR was the best of the best in history gg thx no re nobody compared to that kid and he won one of the greatest acheivements ever..THX
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United States20661 Posts
"2003 Byurook Market FindAll Challenger Open Starleague win"
YellOw win starleague ^^; just not OSL.
Hot_Bid, your list includes a lot of MSL/OSL seconds for BoxeR and NaDa but omits all of YellOw's MSL seconds.
And why shouldn't Snickers be counted? It's not like the competition or prize money or anything was less than in Starleague. The Snickers final was and is still one of my favorites, though the fifth game was pretty anticlimactic. [NaDa lose to 9pool lol?]
GiYom won two starleagues, didn't he?
Oh and where the heck is Reach on list? He was one of the Four Kings, and still probably most accomplished Protoss of all time in terms of consistency and top finishes. It's a pity he's been in slump for like. a year now. T-T
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On February 19 2007 02:15 muramasa wrote:Right now, it's safe to say that NaDa is #1. No question. SaviOr's current dominance is incredible, but in terms of career results, he's behind the likes of July, Boxer and Oov. I think if he manages to pull off winning the current OSL and MSL, then he will be right behind NaDa. SaviOr's period of complete dominance is close to an end IMO. The Terran's seem to have figured him out to an extent. He definitely hasn't seemed invincible lately. It reminds me a lot of Oov when he was on top. Is there a list of of career earnings anywhere? Because in the end, whichever of these guys makes off with the most loot is the real winner.  I'm sure SaviOr is way behind old school guys like YellOw et all with regards to that. NaDa has got to be loaded considering all his tournament wins, plus his sweet contract with Pantech.
I don't know if the terrans have all got sAviOr figured out so much as that he's had to put up with some shitty maps this season on both OSL and MSL. Give him a map like Arcadia with its two min and gas nat and he's still gonna own most terrans.
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every 2-3 months a thread like this gets made... u guys never get bored of the same useless discussions.
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On February 21 2007 22:45 LeJe wrote: every 2-3 months a thread like this gets made... u guys never get bored of the same useless discussions.
haha 
but of course 2-3 months ago savior hadn't yet qualified for two finals in the same season, and nada hadn't completely raped the osl champion's curse to be in the running for a fourth OSL
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On February 21 2007 22:45 LeJe wrote: every 2-3 months a thread like this gets made... u guys never get bored of the same useless discussions.
That's the reality of a forum that has new members joining all the time.
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On February 19 2007 12:31 fig_newbie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2007 13:33 One Page Memory wrote:Oov was fucking monster, but Nada deserves more. Christ thats inhuman. I think many people are forgetting that those percentages include individual games, not series. Oov wasn't just winning sets, he was winning them 2-0, 3-0 constantly. Golden bagels V_V.
tennis player?
Meh, should've taken an earlier screenshot from when his TvT was still at like 77% and TvP was over 90% with a 12-1 record, before Kingdom and Xellos added several losses. When those records were reported, some members of this board probably laughed at themselves for thinking TvT was his strongest matchup. He also had a 21-1 or so tvz record in OGN before losing to July, eclipsing any boxer or nada feat. He was pretty much #1 in the world at every terran matchup, excluding players with 1-0 records. The TvT record was just as impressive as the other two when you consider that at one point more than half of his losses came from playing against Nada. So this is why I think iloveoov was the most dominant player of all time. Add the 5-0 SL finals record and the 17 or so winstreak against zerg, and the early expo revolution in strategy(not saying it's a good thing...) so there's my vote for the most dominant player, though Nada is still the greatest because of his longetivity, number of tournament wins, and somehow more satisfying, complete game.
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On February 21 2007 23:28 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2007 12:31 fig_newbie wrote:On February 18 2007 13:33 One Page Memory wrote:Oov was fucking monster, but Nada deserves more. Christ thats inhuman. I think many people are forgetting that those percentages include individual games, not series. Oov wasn't just winning sets, he was winning them 2-0, 3-0 constantly. Golden bagels V_V. tennis player? Meh, should've taken an earlier screenshot from when his TvT was still at like 77% and TvP was over 90% with a 12-1 record, before Kingdom and Xellos added several losses. When those records were reported, some members of this board probably laughed at themselves for thinking TvT was his strongest matchup. He also had a 21-1 or so tvz record in OGN before losing to July, eclipsing any boxer or nada feat. He was pretty much #1 in the world at every terran matchup, excluding players with 1-0 records. The TvT record was just as impressive as the other two when you consider that at one point more than half of his losses came from playing against Nada. So this is why I think iloveoov was the most dominant player of all time. Add the 5-0 SL finals record and the 17 or so winstreak against zerg, and the early expo revolution in strategy(not saying it's a good thing...) so there's my vote for the most dominant player, though Nada is still the greatest because of his longetivity, number of tournament wins, and somehow more satisfying, complete game.
And yet... sAviOr still managed to cream him 3-0 in the Cyon MSL semi-final. Amazing.
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On February 21 2007 23:32 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2007 23:28 iamke55 wrote:On February 19 2007 12:31 fig_newbie wrote:On February 18 2007 13:33 One Page Memory wrote:Oov was fucking monster, but Nada deserves more. Christ thats inhuman. I think many people are forgetting that those percentages include individual games, not series. Oov wasn't just winning sets, he was winning them 2-0, 3-0 constantly. Golden bagels V_V. tennis player? Meh, should've taken an earlier screenshot from when his TvT was still at like 77% and TvP was over 90% with a 12-1 record, before Kingdom and Xellos added several losses. When those records were reported, some members of this board probably laughed at themselves for thinking TvT was his strongest matchup. He also had a 21-1 or so tvz record in OGN before losing to July, eclipsing any boxer or nada feat. He was pretty much #1 in the world at every terran matchup, excluding players with 1-0 records. The TvT record was just as impressive as the other two when you consider that at one point more than half of his losses came from playing against Nada. So this is why I think iloveoov was the most dominant player of all time. Add the 5-0 SL finals record and the 17 or so winstreak against zerg, and the early expo revolution in strategy(not saying it's a good thing...) so there's my vote for the most dominant player, though Nada is still the greatest because of his longetivity, number of tournament wins, and somehow more satisfying, complete game. And yet... sAviOr still managed to cream him 3-0 in the Cyon MSL semi-final. Amazing.
This doesn't take away from oov's achievements. Oov was the most dominant player in BW history. His loses against Savior only mean that his period of dominance came to an end.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
hehe yeah oov completely raped the scene when he came on. it is just that the competitive environment of progaming makes it hard to dominate for a long time, the dominance will force adaptation and adaptation eventually either reveals the game to be imbalanced or reduces the strategic/systematic decision-making edge of the dominant force.
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On February 18 2007 08:21 Carnac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2007 08:17 Locke. wrote: They should add the CJ event where he won singlehandedly for his team. It was HIS win more than it was a team win. oh comeon, it was just 3 bo1 wins -.- not that noteworthy in terms of accomplishments yeah, that and all the other teams politely mixed up their players while CJ rudely sent their ace player for every game
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Braavos36372 Posts
you say "polite" and "rude"
everyone sees "dumb" and "smart"
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
haha. it is still a testament of savior's strength and statue, even in so short a period of time the level of dominance he showed in his games, beyond the wins and names taken down, is winning him some substantial points.
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In my opinion the greatest starcraft players list can be narrowed down to 5 players. Grrrr, Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior. Other players like Yellow, Ra and July are great in their own right, but fall short when you compare them to these 5 gods of starcraft.
Grrrr was not only the greatest foreign player ever, but dominated the early Korean programming scene. He came to Korea as the famous ladder gosu everybody knew and befuddled the best that Korea had to offer with his random play (he only selected protoss when he was in trouble which goes to show how far ahead he considered himself to be). Not only did he get astronomical tournament winnings, which by the way were the only source of income for programmers back then, his annual tournament winnings back then are still comparable to the tournament winnings of top gamers today.
Boxer is boxer. I\'ll skip him. Nada as all of you know has accomplished more than any other programmer. Oov ended Nada\'s era and took his level of domination one step further. And as of now Savior is the man to beat.
How do we compare these players? Well, there are a lot of ways. One way is to take a segment of career when these players were at their peak (their best 100 consecutive games), and compare them statistically. Of course there are a lot of factors, but I believe that as far as comparing goes, this way isn\'t too bad. I got the sources from pgr21 and other Korean starcraft community sites, I\'m pretty sure these numbers are accurate.
1. Grrrr (Feb 16th 2000 ~ April 27th 2001)
v T: 7 wins 0 loses (100%) v Z: 22 wins 16 losses (57.9%) v P: 3 wins 5 losses (37.5%) Total: 32 wins 21 losses (60.4%)
Grrrr played in an era when there were less televised matches then today and he was notorious for practicing less than he should and his era quickly came to an end. I think the guy who organized the statistics had to stretch out Grrrr\'s peak era because he didn\'t play enough games, thus the numbers don\'t look too impressive. But if you look at the televised matches from 1999 to 2000, Grrrr had the most number of wins as well as the best winning percentage.
2. Boxer (Feb 16th 2001 ~ Aug 30th 2002)
v T: 15 wins 8 losses (65.2%) v Z: 35 wins 13 losses (72.9%) v P: 19 wins 10 losses (65.5%) Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)
Boxer was famous even before his era of domination for his creative play. I guess his best display of domination can be seen in WCG 2001, where he won the whole tournmaent without losing a single game, and that's including the preliminaries. He said it himself, he practiced not so that he would win, but so that he would win in style. There may be better players than Boxer, but I don\'t think we\'ll ever see a bigger icon than him.
3. Nada (April 25th 2002 ~ March 13th 2003)
v T: 15 wins 9 losses (62.5%) v Z: 33 wins 15 losses (68.8%) v P: 22 wins 8 losses (78.6%) Total: 70 wins 30 losses (70%)
The boy genius. This guy was made for starcraft. No weak match ups, a ridiculously high apm and the ability to just look at Boxer\'s replays and copy them without breaking a sweat (Nada was titled genius after he managed to absorb build orders which Boxer took days of hard thinking to make). He was the gosu amateur who beat programmers, and then he became the greatest of them all, perhaps even better than Boxer himself. He seems to be slightly restricted in his play, despite his \'freestyle\' way of playing, which is the only reason I can come up with when answering the question \'why did Oov get the better of him?\'.
4. Oov (July 11th 2003 ~ Aug 29th 2004)
v T: 32 wins 16 losses (66.7%) v Z: 20 wins 3 losses (87%) v P: 22 wins 7 losses (75.9%) Total: 74 wins 26 losses (74%)
I have the hardest time explaining Oov\'s success (the best I can come up with is that he understood macromanagement better than anyone else at the time). His numbers are actually buffed up higher than it seems because he had instantaneous success compared to other gamers. He beat players left and right when he was an anonimity, and his winning percentage dropped to appropriate levels with each passing year.
5. Savior
Ok. It\'s clear that the four previous players now have their best days behind them. There are two periods for Savior, and even these two slots might not show him in the best light since he could do even better to increase his percentage.
a) (Feb 12th 2005 ~ sometime in 2006)
The guy who organised most of these statistics, altair, didn\'t really specify time line. I would guess the approximate date to be sometime after Savior beat Ra in the Pringles Season 2 finals.
v T: 21 wins 7 losses (75%) v Z: 20 wins 13 losses (60.6%) v P: 28 wins 11 losses (71.8%) Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)
This is the early stage of Savior\'s career at the beginning of which he had yet to be recognized as a top class gamer.
b) (March 4th 2006 ~ Feb 16th 2007)
v T: 31 wins 15 losses (67.3%) v Z: 20 wins 6 losses (76.9%) v P: 25 wins 3 losses (89.3%) Total: 76 wins 24 losses (76%)
As you all know 2006 has been Savior\'s best year by far. Depending on his results in the future, reaching 90% winning percentage versus protoss and 80% winning percentage versus zerg could be the mind boggling feat he achieves. He still does great against terran, but exposure to top class opposition over a period of time and the ever present terran favouring maps took its toll.
So there you have it. If we exclude Grrrr, because his era of dominance is hard to compare with others, you can see that there\'s hardly any difference (69, 70, 74, 76 wins out of 100 respectively) between the four programmers. The scary thing is though, Savior\'s winning percentage is increasing as time passes by, and it's already highest out of the five already.
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nice lists and statistics =)
you can not objectively say that boxer is the best/greatest of all time, because he is not ; at least not clearly..
you cant not say NaDa is the best/greatest of all time, because only achievements dont qualify you to be the \'one\' / the \'king\'
so for me its like that :
NaDa has accomplished the most, no discussion about that. NaDa is the most consistent pro gamer ever. He started winning in 2001 and is still in the hardest league 2007 playing in the final!
Boxer had the biggest impact on the game, and it has its reasons why he is called the Greatest One.. But for me this is bias and everyones ones own opinion, because everyone measures success/style/publicity/ect.. different. And so for many Boxer is the Greatest of all time. For some its NaDa and for some others its even oov/july/or mabe even Grrrr...
That is all everyones own business and i m not sure that there is actually a clear choice, that is right..
For me personaly the 5 most IMPORTANT gamers for SC/BW have been :
1. Boxer 2. NaDa 3. Savior 4. Oov 5. Grrrr...
The 5 best players in terms of skills and pure multitaskin/Micro/macro ability for me are :
1. Savior 2. NaDa 3. Oov 4. [iDEF]Slayer aka hasulurker 5. Boxer
The 5 best player of all times for me are :
1. NaDa 2. Boxer 3. Savior 4. Oov 5. Grrrr...
So as you can see.. this is all very much my own opinion and cant really be explained by pure number..
And only looking at some records.. and saying .. this is the best ever.. and this is the 2nd or 3rd isnt really the right way to do it..
If you want an objective result go with the accomplishemnts of the players, rate the win of a tourney 100% higher than the 2nd place and so on..
Put it all together and you probably get NaDa and Boxer at first place..
I find it very very nice, that Giyom is still in a \'all time\' list, because he actually gets forgotten so fast and this is very sad, because he is actually THE ONE who pathened they way for Boxer , who then made pro gaming to what it is now.. so giyom basicaly is a pioneer, even more than boxer is..
PhiL
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On February 22 2007 02:48 Letmelose wrote:+ Show Spoiler +In my opinion the greatest starcraft players list can be narrowed down to 5 players. Grrrr, Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior. Other players like Yellow, Ra and July are great in their own right, but fall short when you compare them to these 5 gods of starcraft.
Grrrr was not only the greatest foreign player ever, but dominated the early Korean programming scene. He came to Korea as the famous ladder gosu everybody knew and befuddled the best that Korea had to offer with his random play (he only selected protoss when he was in trouble which goes to show how far ahead he considered himself to be). Not only did he get astronomical tournament winnings, which by the way were the only source of income for programmers back then, his annual tournament winnings back then are still comparable to the tournament winnings of top gamers today.
Boxer is boxer. I\'ll skip him. Nada as all of you know has accomplished more than any other programmer. Oov ended Nada\'s era and took his level of domination one step further. And as of now Savior is the man to beat.
How do we compare these players? Well, there are a lot of ways. One way is to take a segment of career when these players were at their peak (their best 100 consecutive games), and compare them statistically. Of course there are a lot of factors, but I believe that as far as comparing goes, this way isn\'t too bad. I got the sources from pgr21 and other Korean starcraft community sites, I\'m pretty sure these numbers are accurate.
1. Grrrr (Feb 16th 2000 ~ April 27th 2001)
v T: 7 wins 0 loses (100%) v Z: 22 wins 16 losses (57.9%) v P: 3 wins 5 losses (37.5%) Total: 32 wins 21 losses (60.4%)
Grrrr played in an era when there were less televised matches then today and he was notorious for practicing less than he should and his era quickly came to an end. I think the guy who organized the statistics had to stretch out Grrrr\'s peak era because he didn\'t play enough games, thus the numbers don\'t look too impressive. But if you look at the televised matches from 1999 to 2000, Grrrr had the most number of wins as well as the best winning percentage.
2. Boxer (Feb 16th 2001 ~ Aug 30th 2002)
v T: 15 wins 8 losses (65.2%) v Z: 35 wins 13 losses (72.9%) v P: 19 wins 10 losses (65.5%) Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)
Boxer was famous even before his era of domination for his creative play. I guess his best display of domination can be seen in WCG 2001, where he won the whole tournmaent without losing a single game, and that's including the preliminaries. He said it himself, he practiced not so that he would win, but so that he would win in style. There may be better players than Boxer, but I don\'t think we\'ll ever see a bigger icon than him.
3. Nada (April 25th 2002 ~ March 13th 2003)
v T: 15 wins 9 losses (62.5%) v Z: 33 wins 15 losses (68.8%) v P: 22 wins 8 losses (78.6%) Total: 70 wins 30 losses (70%)
The boy genius. This guy was made for starcraft. No weak match ups, a ridiculously high apm and the ability to just look at Boxer\'s replays and copy them without breaking a sweat (Nada was titled genius after he managed to absorb build orders which Boxer took days of hard thinking to make). He was the gosu amateur who beat programmers, and then he became the greatest of them all, perhaps even better than Boxer himself. He seems to be slightly restricted in his play, despite his \'freestyle\' way of playing, which is the only reason I can come up with when answering the question \'why did Oov get the better of him?\'.
4. Oov (July 11th 2003 ~ Aug 29th 2004)
v T: 32 wins 16 losses (66.7%) v Z: 20 wins 3 losses (87%) v P: 22 wins 7 losses (75.9%) Total: 74 wins 26 losses (74%)
I have the hardest time explaining Oov\'s success (the best I can come up with is that he understood macromanagement better than anyone else at the time). His numbers are actually buffed up higher than it seems because he had instantaneous success compared to other gamers. He beat players left and right when he was an anonimity, and his winning percentage dropped to appropriate levels with each passing year.
5. Savior
Ok. It\'s clear that the four previous players now have their best days behind them. There are two periods for Savior, and even these two slots might not show him in the best light since he could do even better to increase his percentage.
a) (Feb 12th 2005 ~ sometime in 2006)
The guy who organised most of these statistics, altair, didn\'t really specify time line. I would guess the approximate date to be sometime after Savior beat Ra in the Pringles Season 2 finals.
v T: 21 wins 7 losses (75%) v Z: 20 wins 13 losses (60.6%) v P: 28 wins 11 losses (71.8%) Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)
This is the early stage of Savior\'s career at the beginning of which he had yet to be recognized as a top class gamer.
b) (March 4th 2006 ~ Feb 16th 2007)
v T: 31 wins 15 losses (67.3%) v Z: 20 wins 6 losses (76.9%) v P: 25 wins 3 losses (89.3%) Total: 76 wins 24 losses (76%)
As you all know 2006 has been Savior\'s best year by far. Depending on his results in the future, reaching 90% winning percentage versus protoss and 80% winning percentage versus zerg could be the mind boggling feat he achieves. He still does great against terran, but exposure to top class opposition over a period of time and the ever present terran favouring maps took its toll.
So there you have it. If we exclude Grrrr, because his era of dominance is hard to compare with others, you can see that there\'s hardly any difference (69, 70, 74, 76 wins out of 100 respectively) between the four programmers. The scary thing is though, Savior\'s winning percentage is increasing as time passes by, and it's already highest out of the five already.
Awesome post, thanks a lot. One thing though, change "programmer" to "progamer". Programmers are people who write programs.
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boxer is the greatest.
Altho im a zerg/savior fan.
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On February 22 2007 06:30 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2007 02:48 Letmelose wrote:+ Show Spoiler +In my opinion the greatest starcraft players list can be narrowed down to 5 players. Grrrr, Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior. Other players like Yellow, Ra and July are great in their own right, but fall short when you compare them to these 5 gods of starcraft.
Grrrr was not only the greatest foreign player ever, but dominated the early Korean programming scene. He came to Korea as the famous ladder gosu everybody knew and befuddled the best that Korea had to offer with his random play (he only selected protoss when he was in trouble which goes to show how far ahead he considered himself to be). Not only did he get astronomical tournament winnings, which by the way were the only source of income for programmers back then, his annual tournament winnings back then are still comparable to the tournament winnings of top gamers today.
Boxer is boxer. I\'ll skip him. Nada as all of you know has accomplished more than any other programmer. Oov ended Nada\'s era and took his level of domination one step further. And as of now Savior is the man to beat.
How do we compare these players? Well, there are a lot of ways. One way is to take a segment of career when these players were at their peak (their best 100 consecutive games), and compare them statistically. Of course there are a lot of factors, but I believe that as far as comparing goes, this way isn\'t too bad. I got the sources from pgr21 and other Korean starcraft community sites, I\'m pretty sure these numbers are accurate.
1. Grrrr (Feb 16th 2000 ~ April 27th 2001)
v T: 7 wins 0 loses (100%) v Z: 22 wins 16 losses (57.9%) v P: 3 wins 5 losses (37.5%) Total: 32 wins 21 losses (60.4%)
Grrrr played in an era when there were less televised matches then today and he was notorious for practicing less than he should and his era quickly came to an end. I think the guy who organized the statistics had to stretch out Grrrr\'s peak era because he didn\'t play enough games, thus the numbers don\'t look too impressive. But if you look at the televised matches from 1999 to 2000, Grrrr had the most number of wins as well as the best winning percentage.
2. Boxer (Feb 16th 2001 ~ Aug 30th 2002)
v T: 15 wins 8 losses (65.2%) v Z: 35 wins 13 losses (72.9%) v P: 19 wins 10 losses (65.5%) Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)
Boxer was famous even before his era of domination for his creative play. I guess his best display of domination can be seen in WCG 2001, where he won the whole tournmaent without losing a single game, and that's including the preliminaries. He said it himself, he practiced not so that he would win, but so that he would win in style. There may be better players than Boxer, but I don\'t think we\'ll ever see a bigger icon than him.
3. Nada (April 25th 2002 ~ March 13th 2003)
v T: 15 wins 9 losses (62.5%) v Z: 33 wins 15 losses (68.8%) v P: 22 wins 8 losses (78.6%) Total: 70 wins 30 losses (70%)
The boy genius. This guy was made for starcraft. No weak match ups, a ridiculously high apm and the ability to just look at Boxer\'s replays and copy them without breaking a sweat (Nada was titled genius after he managed to absorb build orders which Boxer took days of hard thinking to make). He was the gosu amateur who beat programmers, and then he became the greatest of them all, perhaps even better than Boxer himself. He seems to be slightly restricted in his play, despite his \'freestyle\' way of playing, which is the only reason I can come up with when answering the question \'why did Oov get the better of him?\'.
4. Oov (July 11th 2003 ~ Aug 29th 2004)
v T: 32 wins 16 losses (66.7%) v Z: 20 wins 3 losses (87%) v P: 22 wins 7 losses (75.9%) Total: 74 wins 26 losses (74%)
I have the hardest time explaining Oov\'s success (the best I can come up with is that he understood macromanagement better than anyone else at the time). His numbers are actually buffed up higher than it seems because he had instantaneous success compared to other gamers. He beat players left and right when he was an anonimity, and his winning percentage dropped to appropriate levels with each passing year.
5. Savior
Ok. It\'s clear that the four previous players now have their best days behind them. There are two periods for Savior, and even these two slots might not show him in the best light since he could do even better to increase his percentage.
a) (Feb 12th 2005 ~ sometime in 2006)
The guy who organised most of these statistics, altair, didn\'t really specify time line. I would guess the approximate date to be sometime after Savior beat Ra in the Pringles Season 2 finals.
v T: 21 wins 7 losses (75%) v Z: 20 wins 13 losses (60.6%) v P: 28 wins 11 losses (71.8%) Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)
This is the early stage of Savior\'s career at the beginning of which he had yet to be recognized as a top class gamer.
b) (March 4th 2006 ~ Feb 16th 2007)
v T: 31 wins 15 losses (67.3%) v Z: 20 wins 6 losses (76.9%) v P: 25 wins 3 losses (89.3%) Total: 76 wins 24 losses (76%)
As you all know 2006 has been Savior\'s best year by far. Depending on his results in the future, reaching 90% winning percentage versus protoss and 80% winning percentage versus zerg could be the mind boggling feat he achieves. He still does great against terran, but exposure to top class opposition over a period of time and the ever present terran favouring maps took its toll.
So there you have it. If we exclude Grrrr, because his era of dominance is hard to compare with others, you can see that there\'s hardly any difference (69, 70, 74, 76 wins out of 100 respectively) between the four programmers. The scary thing is though, Savior\'s winning percentage is increasing as time passes by, and it's already highest out of the five already. Awesome post, thanks a lot. One thing though, change "programmer" to "progamer". Programmers are people who write programs.
You know what? For the longest time I've been reading 'progamers' on this site as 'programmers' for some inexplicable reason. It really confused the hell out of me at first, I thought that people on tl called progamers 'programmers' because gamers moved onto programming after their career was over or something. The funny thing is I actually checked my post once for typos and never actually thought twice about the progamer/programmer thing -_- pretty embarassing hehe.
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A couple questions I think should be considered (that I don't know the answer to >_<):
Did people think that the old-school maps, on the whole, were imbalanced to favor Terran? Also, would people consider them imbalanced today given modern strategies and build orders?
edit: It took me a couple days to realize the word was "progamer" rather than "programmer" too.
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i really think the best way to resolve this, is to actually come up with individual areas, compare them, and see who comes out on top. saying who is 'the greatest ever' or the most influential ever is subjective, but if you can as who has the most osl wins, 2nd places, influneced the most, that sorta thing you can pretty much getter a more accurate picture.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
For me personaly the 5 most IMPORTANT gamers for SC/BW have been :
1. Boxer 2. NaDa 3. Savior 4. Oov 5. Grrrr...
bullshit
oov introduced a whole new style of play and practically invented the modern macro era. grr jumpstarted professional gaming. savior has achieved none of that.....yet
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Ok, my personal lists... The players that brought the most change to the way how BW is played are: 1. Boxer 2. Oov 3. July 4. Garmito
In terms of domination and achievements: 1. Nada 2. Oov 3. Saviour 4. Boxer
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Garimtoss is really important too...
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United States20661 Posts
On February 22 2007 05:13 MaGic~PhiL wrote: For me personaly the 5 most IMPORTANT gamers for SC/BW have been :
1. Boxer 2. NaDa 3. Savior 4. Oov 5. Grrrr...
The 5 best players in terms of skills and pure multitaskin/Micro/macro ability for me are :
1. Savior 2. NaDa 3. Oov 4. [iDEF]Slayer aka hasulurker 5. Boxer
The 5 best player of all times for me are :
1. NaDa 2. Boxer 3. Savior 4. Oov 5. Grrrr...
I don't see how YellOw doesn't make the list for most important. Same with Reach. YellOw was the hope of Zerg in a time of Uboat/HoV/NFZ/Charity/Gorky/other stupid maps. He pioneered modern Zerg play and contributed greatly to the popularity of Starcraft. After all, without Jinho, where is your Lim/Jin rok?
Reach, hero toss, only toss to do well in several Starleagues, notably EVER with its Mercury. He slumps now, yes, but he was most consistent pro along with YellOw before the slump. He made standard Protoss play - and while his PvZ now is laughable, much like BoxeR's TvP, in his time it was still feared. His contributions to macro play go unnoticed too often. He was one of the first "macro players", but due to his flashy storm micro and such, people overlook it.
So I'd put it 1. BoxeR 2. Grrr... 3. YellOw 4. Reach 5. OoV
Then by pure skill I'd put: 1. NaDa 2. sAviOr 3. ooV 4. Nal_rA 5. BoxeR
I just don't think Slayer could compete with today's people. Even if you were best in 99, you can't possibly lay claim to "most skilled", whereas best in '07 conceivably could.
All Time Greats: Four Kings + oov, I guess. I don't know how I'd rank them.
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I agree with GrandInquisitor - Boxer, oov and Nada all changed gameplay quite a bit in one way or another, maybe grrr too. Of these three, I think Boxer has done the most.
I also disagree with Magic-Phils assessment that Slayer (if he's talking about ds-slayer) ranks as no.4 in an all time list of skills + mechanical abilities (micro/macro/multitasking). Skills + mechanical abilities = everything required in a game to win, ie the mechanics, strategy, timing etc. Boxer was better than Slayer back when the latter played, and Boxer has improved tremendously since then. If Boxer had a winning record against Slayer back then, a Boxer of now would seriously ass rape him. You're forgetting how much the game has evolved and how good todays progamers are compared to the players of 1.07 and 1.08. I think all top tier progamers (eg top 30 kespa) are superior in terms of mechanical ability compared to the Slayer of back then. And its useless to argue how good Slayer might have become, because this discussion isnt about the potentially greatest SC player, its about whats actually happened. Sorry, but Slayer isnt even close to being top 5 of all time in terms of developed skill and mechanical ability. Maybe he had the talent, but if thats the case, he never played long enough to fully exploit it.
A more reasonable argument would be that Slayer is in the top 5 in terms of skill and mechanical ability when judged against the players of his own time. Even so, it would still be very hard to decide whether or not to place him in a top 5 all time list, because a lot of players have displayed excellent skills as compared to their peers in different eras.
Slayer was definitely an excellent player, but in the top 5 in terms of skill and mechanics? Probably not. Top 10? Better chance. In a top x list when judging against the players of ones own time? An excellent chance. I think I would agree.
Furthermore, I think people are forgetting how impactful Boxer initially was, just because its been so long. People were wowing over Casy's fake expo move, but back in the day Boxer changed SC by doing one out-of-the-box strategy after another. I remember when the first Boxer replays started leaking out and people were completely blown away by what he was doing, by both his strategies and his micro. I agree that even without a Boxer, Starcraft would have developed the way it has, but probably more slowly, and by the contribution of a lot of players. Boxer, I think, violently raised the bar, and changed the way people played dramatically. And not just Terran. By introducing new strategies, he forced his opponents to come up with new counters. And his crazy micro not only inspired terran players, it also encouraged protoss and zerg users to start microing harder.
He not only changed the game, he influenced other players to change it as well.
And of course he's extremely personable. Thats why he has the largest fan site.
This thread isnt about the "best" player, or the most "skilled" player, its about the "greatest" player. And greatness would embody a whole lot more than just a list of achievements.
Overall, I think BoxeR has changed the face of Starcraft more than any other player in history, and massively helped it achieve the status it has today. This is not to take away from the contributions of a lot of other players, but I think Boxer has done more than any other single starcraft player.
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And yeah, Grrr obviously gets a place in a top 5 or at least a top 10 list for kick starting pro Starcraft.
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YellOw is definitely still the father of Zerg
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On February 22 2007 09:39 Gandalf wrote: I agree with GrandInquisitor - Boxer, oov and Nada all changed gameplay quite a bit in one way or another, maybe grrr too. Of these three, I think Boxer has done the most. (if he's talking about ds-slayer)
no, hes talking about [GG99]Slayer, the guy o n east was never that good and always bragged about being sweet and stuff
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They're the same guy....
ds-slayer = [gg99]slayer
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ie the guy who lost to Boxer in some challenge to determine the "best" player of the world or something. If I remember correctly, Slayer randomed and got Zerg all games (not sure, been a while). Must have sucked to play three ZvTs straight vs Boxer.
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On February 22 2007 09:58 Gandalf wrote: They're the same guy....
ds-slayer = [gg99]slayer
Wow your an idiot. DS-SLayer is a random east newbie, while [GG99]SlayeR was one of the best players in starcraft history.
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Oh ok then my bad, its been a long while and I got confused, I'm talking about gg99 Slayer. I already clarified that by mentioning his games vs Boxer...
Its obvious a random east newbie wouldnt feature in a top 5 list by anyone anyways.
Also, I think you need to relax a bit -_-
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how many osl wins did slayer have? who is he?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On February 22 2007 08:20 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2007 06:30 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On February 22 2007 02:48 Letmelose wrote:+ Show Spoiler +In my opinion the greatest starcraft players list can be narrowed down to 5 players. Grrrr, Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior. Other players like Yellow, Ra and July are great in their own right, but fall short when you compare them to these 5 gods of starcraft.
Grrrr was not only the greatest foreign player ever, but dominated the early Korean programming scene. He came to Korea as the famous ladder gosu everybody knew and befuddled the best that Korea had to offer with his random play (he only selected protoss when he was in trouble which goes to show how far ahead he considered himself to be). Not only did he get astronomical tournament winnings, which by the way were the only source of income for programmers back then, his annual tournament winnings back then are still comparable to the tournament winnings of top gamers today.
Boxer is boxer. I\'ll skip him. Nada as all of you know has accomplished more than any other programmer. Oov ended Nada\'s era and took his level of domination one step further. And as of now Savior is the man to beat.
How do we compare these players? Well, there are a lot of ways. One way is to take a segment of career when these players were at their peak (their best 100 consecutive games), and compare them statistically. Of course there are a lot of factors, but I believe that as far as comparing goes, this way isn\'t too bad. I got the sources from pgr21 and other Korean starcraft community sites, I\'m pretty sure these numbers are accurate.
1. Grrrr (Feb 16th 2000 ~ April 27th 2001)
v T: 7 wins 0 loses (100%) v Z: 22 wins 16 losses (57.9%) v P: 3 wins 5 losses (37.5%) Total: 32 wins 21 losses (60.4%)
Grrrr played in an era when there were less televised matches then today and he was notorious for practicing less than he should and his era quickly came to an end. I think the guy who organized the statistics had to stretch out Grrrr\'s peak era because he didn\'t play enough games, thus the numbers don\'t look too impressive. But if you look at the televised matches from 1999 to 2000, Grrrr had the most number of wins as well as the best winning percentage.
2. Boxer (Feb 16th 2001 ~ Aug 30th 2002)
v T: 15 wins 8 losses (65.2%) v Z: 35 wins 13 losses (72.9%) v P: 19 wins 10 losses (65.5%) Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)
Boxer was famous even before his era of domination for his creative play. I guess his best display of domination can be seen in WCG 2001, where he won the whole tournmaent without losing a single game, and that's including the preliminaries. He said it himself, he practiced not so that he would win, but so that he would win in style. There may be better players than Boxer, but I don\'t think we\'ll ever see a bigger icon than him.
3. Nada (April 25th 2002 ~ March 13th 2003)
v T: 15 wins 9 losses (62.5%) v Z: 33 wins 15 losses (68.8%) v P: 22 wins 8 losses (78.6%) Total: 70 wins 30 losses (70%)
The boy genius. This guy was made for starcraft. No weak match ups, a ridiculously high apm and the ability to just look at Boxer\'s replays and copy them without breaking a sweat (Nada was titled genius after he managed to absorb build orders which Boxer took days of hard thinking to make). He was the gosu amateur who beat programmers, and then he became the greatest of them all, perhaps even better than Boxer himself. He seems to be slightly restricted in his play, despite his \'freestyle\' way of playing, which is the only reason I can come up with when answering the question \'why did Oov get the better of him?\'.
4. Oov (July 11th 2003 ~ Aug 29th 2004)
v T: 32 wins 16 losses (66.7%) v Z: 20 wins 3 losses (87%) v P: 22 wins 7 losses (75.9%) Total: 74 wins 26 losses (74%)
I have the hardest time explaining Oov\'s success (the best I can come up with is that he understood macromanagement better than anyone else at the time). His numbers are actually buffed up higher than it seems because he had instantaneous success compared to other gamers. He beat players left and right when he was an anonimity, and his winning percentage dropped to appropriate levels with each passing year.
5. Savior
Ok. It\'s clear that the four previous players now have their best days behind them. There are two periods for Savior, and even these two slots might not show him in the best light since he could do even better to increase his percentage.
a) (Feb 12th 2005 ~ sometime in 2006)
The guy who organised most of these statistics, altair, didn\'t really specify time line. I would guess the approximate date to be sometime after Savior beat Ra in the Pringles Season 2 finals.
v T: 21 wins 7 losses (75%) v Z: 20 wins 13 losses (60.6%) v P: 28 wins 11 losses (71.8%) Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)
This is the early stage of Savior\'s career at the beginning of which he had yet to be recognized as a top class gamer.
b) (March 4th 2006 ~ Feb 16th 2007)
v T: 31 wins 15 losses (67.3%) v Z: 20 wins 6 losses (76.9%) v P: 25 wins 3 losses (89.3%) Total: 76 wins 24 losses (76%)
As you all know 2006 has been Savior\'s best year by far. Depending on his results in the future, reaching 90% winning percentage versus protoss and 80% winning percentage versus zerg could be the mind boggling feat he achieves. He still does great against terran, but exposure to top class opposition over a period of time and the ever present terran favouring maps took its toll.
So there you have it. If we exclude Grrrr, because his era of dominance is hard to compare with others, you can see that there\'s hardly any difference (69, 70, 74, 76 wins out of 100 respectively) between the four programmers. The scary thing is though, Savior\'s winning percentage is increasing as time passes by, and it's already highest out of the five already. Awesome post, thanks a lot. One thing though, change "programmer" to "progamer". Programmers are people who write programs. You know what? For the longest time I've been reading 'progamers' on this site as 'programmers' for some inexplicable reason. It really confused the hell out of me at first, I thought that people on tl called progamers 'programmers' because gamers moved onto programming after their career was over or something. The funny thing is I actually checked my post once for typos and never actually thought twice about the progamer/programmer thing -_- pretty embarassing hehe.
It's understandable - there are a bunch of people here who do it for some reason
It's not nearly as bad as "progammers" which i've seen countless times as well
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
What systematic changes did boxer introduce?
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The greatest player of all times is BOXER. Period.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
you forgot to put that julyzerg got 2nd at wcg 2006
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On February 22 2007 11:01 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2007 08:20 Letmelose wrote:On February 22 2007 06:30 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On February 22 2007 02:48 Letmelose wrote:+ Show Spoiler +In my opinion the greatest starcraft players list can be narrowed down to 5 players. Grrrr, Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior. Other players like Yellow, Ra and July are great in their own right, but fall short when you compare them to these 5 gods of starcraft.
Grrrr was not only the greatest foreign player ever, but dominated the early Korean programming scene. He came to Korea as the famous ladder gosu everybody knew and befuddled the best that Korea had to offer with his random play (he only selected protoss when he was in trouble which goes to show how far ahead he considered himself to be). Not only did he get astronomical tournament winnings, which by the way were the only source of income for programmers back then, his annual tournament winnings back then are still comparable to the tournament winnings of top gamers today.
Boxer is boxer. I\'ll skip him. Nada as all of you know has accomplished more than any other programmer. Oov ended Nada\'s era and took his level of domination one step further. And as of now Savior is the man to beat.
How do we compare these players? Well, there are a lot of ways. One way is to take a segment of career when these players were at their peak (their best 100 consecutive games), and compare them statistically. Of course there are a lot of factors, but I believe that as far as comparing goes, this way isn\'t too bad. I got the sources from pgr21 and other Korean starcraft community sites, I\'m pretty sure these numbers are accurate.
1. Grrrr (Feb 16th 2000 ~ April 27th 2001)
v T: 7 wins 0 loses (100%) v Z: 22 wins 16 losses (57.9%) v P: 3 wins 5 losses (37.5%) Total: 32 wins 21 losses (60.4%)
Grrrr played in an era when there were less televised matches then today and he was notorious for practicing less than he should and his era quickly came to an end. I think the guy who organized the statistics had to stretch out Grrrr\'s peak era because he didn\'t play enough games, thus the numbers don\'t look too impressive. But if you look at the televised matches from 1999 to 2000, Grrrr had the most number of wins as well as the best winning percentage.
2. Boxer (Feb 16th 2001 ~ Aug 30th 2002)
v T: 15 wins 8 losses (65.2%) v Z: 35 wins 13 losses (72.9%) v P: 19 wins 10 losses (65.5%) Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)
Boxer was famous even before his era of domination for his creative play. I guess his best display of domination can be seen in WCG 2001, where he won the whole tournmaent without losing a single game, and that's including the preliminaries. He said it himself, he practiced not so that he would win, but so that he would win in style. There may be better players than Boxer, but I don\'t think we\'ll ever see a bigger icon than him.
3. Nada (April 25th 2002 ~ March 13th 2003)
v T: 15 wins 9 losses (62.5%) v Z: 33 wins 15 losses (68.8%) v P: 22 wins 8 losses (78.6%) Total: 70 wins 30 losses (70%)
The boy genius. This guy was made for starcraft. No weak match ups, a ridiculously high apm and the ability to just look at Boxer\'s replays and copy them without breaking a sweat (Nada was titled genius after he managed to absorb build orders which Boxer took days of hard thinking to make). He was the gosu amateur who beat programmers, and then he became the greatest of them all, perhaps even better than Boxer himself. He seems to be slightly restricted in his play, despite his \'freestyle\' way of playing, which is the only reason I can come up with when answering the question \'why did Oov get the better of him?\'.
4. Oov (July 11th 2003 ~ Aug 29th 2004)
v T: 32 wins 16 losses (66.7%) v Z: 20 wins 3 losses (87%) v P: 22 wins 7 losses (75.9%) Total: 74 wins 26 losses (74%)
I have the hardest time explaining Oov\'s success (the best I can come up with is that he understood macromanagement better than anyone else at the time). His numbers are actually buffed up higher than it seems because he had instantaneous success compared to other gamers. He beat players left and right when he was an anonimity, and his winning percentage dropped to appropriate levels with each passing year.
5. Savior
Ok. It\'s clear that the four previous players now have their best days behind them. There are two periods for Savior, and even these two slots might not show him in the best light since he could do even better to increase his percentage.
a) (Feb 12th 2005 ~ sometime in 2006)
The guy who organised most of these statistics, altair, didn\'t really specify time line. I would guess the approximate date to be sometime after Savior beat Ra in the Pringles Season 2 finals.
v T: 21 wins 7 losses (75%) v Z: 20 wins 13 losses (60.6%) v P: 28 wins 11 losses (71.8%) Total: 69 wins 31 losses (69%)
This is the early stage of Savior\'s career at the beginning of which he had yet to be recognized as a top class gamer.
b) (March 4th 2006 ~ Feb 16th 2007)
v T: 31 wins 15 losses (67.3%) v Z: 20 wins 6 losses (76.9%) v P: 25 wins 3 losses (89.3%) Total: 76 wins 24 losses (76%)
As you all know 2006 has been Savior\'s best year by far. Depending on his results in the future, reaching 90% winning percentage versus protoss and 80% winning percentage versus zerg could be the mind boggling feat he achieves. He still does great against terran, but exposure to top class opposition over a period of time and the ever present terran favouring maps took its toll.
So there you have it. If we exclude Grrrr, because his era of dominance is hard to compare with others, you can see that there\'s hardly any difference (69, 70, 74, 76 wins out of 100 respectively) between the four programmers. The scary thing is though, Savior\'s winning percentage is increasing as time passes by, and it's already highest out of the five already. Awesome post, thanks a lot. One thing though, change "programmer" to "progamer". Programmers are people who write programs. You know what? For the longest time I've been reading 'progamers' on this site as 'programmers' for some inexplicable reason. It really confused the hell out of me at first, I thought that people on tl called progamers 'programmers' because gamers moved onto programming after their career was over or something. The funny thing is I actually checked my post once for typos and never actually thought twice about the progamer/programmer thing -_- pretty embarassing hehe. It's understandable - there are a bunch of people here who do it for some reason It's not nearly as bad as "progammers" which i've seen countless times as well
You know, I used to confuse progamers with programmers too, probably because I only skimmed over the word.
Never thought it was progammers though lol
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On February 22 2007 09:29 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2007 05:13 MaGic~PhiL wrote: For me personaly the 5 most IMPORTANT gamers for SC/BW have been :
1. Boxer 2. NaDa 3. Savior 4. Oov 5. Grrrr...
The 5 best players in terms of skills and pure multitaskin/Micro/macro ability for me are :
1. Savior 2. NaDa 3. Oov 4. [iDEF]Slayer aka hasulurker 5. Boxer
The 5 best player of all times for me are :
1. NaDa 2. Boxer 3. Savior 4. Oov 5. Grrrr...
I don't see how YellOw doesn't make the list for most important. Same with Reach. YellOw was the hope of Zerg in a time of Uboat/HoV/NFZ/Charity/Gorky/other stupid maps. He pioneered modern Zerg play and contributed greatly to the popularity of Starcraft. After all, without Jinho, where is your Lim/Jin rok? Reach, hero toss, only toss to do well in several Starleagues, notably EVER with its Mercury. He slumps now, yes, but he was most consistent pro along with YellOw before the slump. He made standard Protoss play - and while his PvZ now is laughable, much like BoxeR's TvP, in his time it was still feared. His contributions to macro play go unnoticed too often. He was one of the first "macro players", but due to his flashy storm micro and such, people overlook it. So I'd put it 1. BoxeR 2. Grrr... 3. YellOw 4. Reach 5. OoV
As far as importance goes, I would put July above Yellow. The importance of his ITV and 2 OSL wins should not be underestimated. Before July, zerg had no meaningful tournament victories. July, not Yellow, was the great zerg hope.
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i think were forgetting Nal_rA
to me his competitiveness / skill is on the same level as Boxer / Nada / and all the top pros.
but again it's really hard to put anyone with savior since he's winning every fucking time.
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Slayer was a Norwegian guy that played many years ago. He won tournaments, were extremely talented(He has now switched to poker, and has becomed a "multi millionare" 2-3 million dollars, has it been said) He also played his way up to go to Korea, where he won the KBK. He has a documentary that probably many of you have seen, where people like Grrrr gives comments about his extremely fast hands, bit talent and etc.(If i can recall correctly) He also got invited to be a progamer. I find this very impressive, although it was in the very early era of progaming.
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is there a reason why he didnt continue with being a progamer, or he just did it for fun. Also how far off was he compared with boxer back then.
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I believe the only argument that needs to be made for Boxer's contribution to the game for things other than pure skill and mechanics is this:
There is no other progamer that all other progamers [ and especially the ' Kings ' Nada, Oov, July, Garimto etc ] mutually agree that he is the greatest caretaker of progamers and the game itself. The way Boxer has carried himself has demanded respect from every progamer that will ever play the game or has ever played the game at a competitive level. They all see him as an older brother and any of the success that any progamer receives at its very core owes some of itself to Boxer's accomplishments.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On February 22 2007 15:44 BrutalMenace wrote: i think were forgetting Nal_rA
to me his competitiveness / skill is on the same level as Boxer / Nada / and all the top pros.
but again it's really hard to put anyone with savior since he's winning every fucking time.
even though I am probably a fan of ra, I will say that his accomplishments to date are nowhere near that of the frontrunners for "the greatest"
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United States20661 Posts
On February 22 2007 14:48 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2007 09:29 Last Romantic wrote:On February 22 2007 05:13 MaGic~PhiL wrote: For me personaly the 5 most IMPORTANT gamers for SC/BW have been :
1. Boxer 2. NaDa 3. Savior 4. Oov 5. Grrrr...
The 5 best players in terms of skills and pure multitaskin/Micro/macro ability for me are :
1. Savior 2. NaDa 3. Oov 4. [iDEF]Slayer aka hasulurker 5. Boxer
The 5 best player of all times for me are :
1. NaDa 2. Boxer 3. Savior 4. Oov 5. Grrrr...
I don't see how YellOw doesn't make the list for most important. Same with Reach. YellOw was the hope of Zerg in a time of Uboat/HoV/NFZ/Charity/Gorky/other stupid maps. He pioneered modern Zerg play and contributed greatly to the popularity of Starcraft. After all, without Jinho, where is your Lim/Jin rok? Reach, hero toss, only toss to do well in several Starleagues, notably EVER with its Mercury. He slumps now, yes, but he was most consistent pro along with YellOw before the slump. He made standard Protoss play - and while his PvZ now is laughable, much like BoxeR's TvP, in his time it was still feared. His contributions to macro play go unnoticed too often. He was one of the first "macro players", but due to his flashy storm micro and such, people overlook it. So I'd put it 1. BoxeR 2. Grrr... 3. YellOw 4. Reach 5. OoV As far as importance goes, I would put July above Yellow. The importance of his ITV and 2 OSL wins should not be underestimated. Before July, zerg had no meaningful tournament victories. July, not Yellow, was the great zerg hope.
As far as better player, perhaps July above YellOw, due to wins. However, influence - YellOw is higher. July himself admits that his style is basically based on the Jinho StormZerg. So in terms of influencing the scene and the play of the game, YellOw is still top Zerg.
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On February 22 2007 16:41 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2007 14:48 Mindcrime wrote:On February 22 2007 09:29 Last Romantic wrote:On February 22 2007 05:13 MaGic~PhiL wrote: For me personaly the 5 most IMPORTANT gamers for SC/BW have been :
1. Boxer 2. NaDa 3. Savior 4. Oov 5. Grrrr...
The 5 best players in terms of skills and pure multitaskin/Micro/macro ability for me are :
1. Savior 2. NaDa 3. Oov 4. [iDEF]Slayer aka hasulurker 5. Boxer
The 5 best player of all times for me are :
1. NaDa 2. Boxer 3. Savior 4. Oov 5. Grrrr...
I don't see how YellOw doesn't make the list for most important. Same with Reach. YellOw was the hope of Zerg in a time of Uboat/HoV/NFZ/Charity/Gorky/other stupid maps. He pioneered modern Zerg play and contributed greatly to the popularity of Starcraft. After all, without Jinho, where is your Lim/Jin rok? Reach, hero toss, only toss to do well in several Starleagues, notably EVER with its Mercury. He slumps now, yes, but he was most consistent pro along with YellOw before the slump. He made standard Protoss play - and while his PvZ now is laughable, much like BoxeR's TvP, in his time it was still feared. His contributions to macro play go unnoticed too often. He was one of the first "macro players", but due to his flashy storm micro and such, people overlook it. So I'd put it 1. BoxeR 2. Grrr... 3. YellOw 4. Reach 5. OoV As far as importance goes, I would put July above Yellow. The importance of his ITV and 2 OSL wins should not be underestimated. Before July, zerg had no meaningful tournament victories. July, not Yellow, was the great zerg hope. As far as better player, perhaps July above YellOw, due to wins. However, influence - YellOw is higher. July himself admits that his style is basically based on the Jinho StormZerg. So in terms of influencing the scene and the play of the game, YellOw is still top Zerg.
Yellow is aggressive, but July takes aggression to a completely different level and he deserves credit for that. And again, I feel that July's big tournament wins gave hope and motivation to zerg players... something which Yellow's repeated failures in zvt finals did not do.
EDIT: And if we're going to talk about playstyle influence... Byun wins. Yellow's game was practically the same as Byun's but with better execution.
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In my opinion slayer had 110% the talent to become something big. But he as others became consumed in poker. Also that he was too intelligent for the game in my opinion. He weighed the pros and cons of professional Brood War gaming, deciding that pursuing an education would have a better probability outcome.
His raw skill was something to admire though. I bet if you would take his sweat and drink it. INSTANT sense o' star. SPOT THE BEETLE SPOT THE BEETLE.
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Giyom and boxer my fav :D the pioneers
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On February 22 2007 16:12 Total-War wrote: Slayer was a Norwegian guy that played many years ago. He won tournaments, were extremely talented(He has now switched to poker, and has becomed a "multi millionare" 2-3 million dollars, has it been said) He also played his way up to go to Korea, where he won the KBK. He has a documentary that probably many of you have seen, where people like Grrrr gives comments about his extremely fast hands, bit talent and etc.(If i can recall correctly) He also got invited to be a progamer. I find this very impressive, although it was in the very early era of progaming.
Yea thats why I think slayer would have been like NaDa or Iloveoov or any pro gamer today ++ in his skill if he continued to pro game all of those years.. the kid was a genius.
And 2-3 Mill in poker nice
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