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The Ladder Smurf Myth - Page 3

Forum Index > BW General
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Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
October 14 2015 20:55 GMT
#41
Do you go to an apple store and complain that your latest mac doesn't come with linux?

No, because Mac is UNIX based and almost anything I would run on Linux runs on Mac.

Not sure what point you're trying to make.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
GeckoXp
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Germany2016 Posts
October 15 2015 07:45 GMT
#42
The point I'm trying to make is that casuals can never be satisfied with a ladder, as casual play and ladder play contradict each other directly. A result of this is that any beginner has to realize what he wants to do. You can't hardly blame ladder systems for not catering optimal set ups to people who're interested in a service that's not described.

To elaborate...

+ Show Spoiler [to not derail the topic] +

This works under the assumption you do not talk about the original Blizzard B.net ladder system, which was always kind of shit, thanks to bot users, hackers and the abscence of the publisher for the majority of the history.


Any competitive ladder (server) always advertised itself as competitive environment. Competition implies that the participants will play to win, no matter what. This involves a lot of cheese (not an issue) and a player base aiming to improve. I can't come up with one example that said otherwise, e.g. "Join World Gaming Tour for some fun games in your spare time" or "Join the Pro Gaming Tour to find some games whenever you want to". The motto is more like "play with the best, die like the rest".

This being said, before the beta any given ladder system worked well enough to give eager players opponents, which were about right. There's always a margin of error, regardless of the system used. It really doesn't matter if it's Elo, Glicko or something like WGT/PGT schemes. All those are estimators and all of these estimators have their ups and downs. Just one out of many examples:

Any given estimator has a start value. Depending on the punishment terms you go up or down very quickly or not. In Elo you might lose ten games as beginner, before you find "good" opponents, which won't smash you. The start value however is shit for those, who'se actual skill is close to it - e.g. in Elo with a start value of 1000 points. You'll always get a ratio of at least 45%++ people who just started out, but who're actually higher than 1000 points. On ICCup, as D rank, you might run into players who start late. That's shit, but you can't compensate for that, it comes witht he system.
      Almost all of the more dynamic systems (Elo, Glicko) set their start points in a way that they hit beginners and casuals the hardest. It might, just might, benefit the established player class, but not really. If you have a closer look, you most likely will still need more than 30 games to get a good rating - meaning that you'll be placed where you belong. You simply need some observations for your estimator to work. That's statistic basic stuff. It won't change the fact that people with less interest to play some strangers on a casual basis have to endure this one time estimation progress.

Now you might argue that this can be circumvented with never-ending seasons, e.g. no stat reset. Yeah, no, it can't. Any ladder system will suffer from point inflation, this really is a thing for Elo and you can observe it with the current ICCup scheme towards the end of the season. It's another byproduct of the mathematics of the system. Glicko2 might compensate for that (similar to B.net 2.0's whatstheirface point pool) - but this is just another form of ladder reset / pushes you into a circle that estimates you yet again against unsound opponents. If you don't get what I mean: If you can't play for three months, your rating will lose its meaning and you have to win more points again afterwards.

Also, for ladders there's this thing I tried to explain: Beginners and casuals drop out sooner, thanks to the start value conundrum explained before. Since they will face a ton of unequal opponents they start to lose motivation sooner. We had a server (2008-2009) for beginners on bw.de with 3k registered accounts, from which about 600 tried to play more than 50 games. In the end only 50 people stuck around, the rest wasn't satisfied, mostly calling the server "too hard". This was despite the fact that any signed up player had a rating of less than 2500 D+ points on ICCup. The average player was a stable D. And it wasn't even a competitive ladder, more like a place to find other beginners, until you wanted to go on ICCup.



... so if you say that you miss that "we as community" never fixed the problems for casuals, my answer is: casuals you can never really satisfy. They're easier and automatically satisfied if the player base is good enough. Because then, and only then, they can go into public games without ratings. Nobody cares too much in these games.



And now in the case you think about B.net 2.0's system or that of any MOBA:

These only work thanks to a lot more players in the system. Imagine a SCII system of all the divisions with less than 4000 players per base. It would get meaningless. The first ones to experience the idiocy of the system would - as they always do - the top players. Only few opponents, always the same faces. The next to experience boredom would be the bottom in the copper league, or whatever is down there. Same phenomeneon. You need variance, and you simply never had enough of it for BW after 2010.
pebble444
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Italy2497 Posts
October 15 2015 16:22 GMT
#43
in my experience the only bm players are 2vs2; i don' t know why but once you enter that 2x2 ladder, game rooms and game itself people just get weird and sticky
"Awaken my Child, and embrace the Glory that is your Birthright"
dRaW
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada5744 Posts
October 15 2015 18:25 GMT
#44
On October 16 2015 01:22 pebble444 wrote:
in my experience the only bm players are 2vs2; i don' t know why but once you enter that 2x2 ladder, game rooms and game itself people just get weird and sticky


I bm probably once every two games. I think that the reason why 2v2 players are 'bm' is because they have someone else to blame for their short comings.
I don't need luck, luck is for noobs, good luck to you though
TopRamen
Profile Joined February 2011
United States96 Posts
October 16 2015 03:59 GMT
#45
Why do we care about BM?
Use your noodle!
skzlime
Profile Joined July 2005
Hungary462 Posts
October 16 2015 20:44 GMT
#46
hello
is this the league of dota forum?
i have a problem pls help me. i sold my girlfriend to buy an olympic account and champion terran skin for my units but whenever i play i always lose even though i play much lower ranks than olympic so my rank should win (i lost vs D- but he had 300 APM so i think he was BoxeR or Faker maybe but SKT pro for sure). because of this i am now C+ and my units look the same as before please fix this bug because i really want to get my wins THANK YOU
life is balanced, L2P
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
October 16 2015 22:09 GMT
#47
On October 17 2015 05:44 skzlime wrote:
hello
is this the league of dota forum?
i have a problem pls help me. i sold my girlfriend to buy an olympic account and champion terran skin for my units but whenever i play i always lose even though i play much lower ranks than olympic so my rank should win (i lost vs D- but he had 300 APM so i think he was BoxeR or Faker maybe but SKT pro for sure). because of this i am now C+ and my units look the same as before please fix this bug because i really want to get my wins THANK YOU


Did you do the larva trick? Because if you didn't do the larva trick, that probably contributed heavily to your loss.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
L3gendary
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1470 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-16 22:55:20
October 16 2015 22:54 GMT
#48
Even playing someone two ranks above is a pretty big mismatch, they don't have to be B+ smurfs. A D+ player will usually get crushed by a C player.

edit: where the hell is my Hwaseung Oz flair??!
Watching Jaedong play purifies my eyes. -Coach Ju Hoon
Harem
Profile Joined November 2007
United States11390 Posts
October 16 2015 23:09 GMT
#49
On October 17 2015 07:54 L3gendary wrote:
Even playing someone two ranks above is a pretty big mismatch, they don't have to be B+ smurfs. A D+ player will usually get crushed by a C player.

edit: where the hell is my Hwaseung Oz flair??!

It will come back eventually.
Moderator。◕‿◕。
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States935 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-07 08:54:26
February 07 2017 08:51 GMT
#50
On October 17 2015 07:54 L3gendary wrote:
Even playing someone two ranks above is a pretty big mismatch, they don't have to be B+ smurfs. A D+ player will usually get crushed by a C player.

edit: where the hell is my Hwaseung Oz flair??!

I'm a C Zerg and I get consistently crushed by my C+ friend

I have a 10% win rate against him. ZvT is my best matchup (not statistically, but I have the most practice vs. Terran)

Also, just because a guy is a C+ max on iccup doesn't mean his true skill is C+.

http://iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/InTT.remag.html

I bet you this guy is at least A- rank, I could tell by playing against him
Sero
Profile Joined October 2010
United States692 Posts
February 07 2017 09:41 GMT
#51
A+ in stomping noobs, but I doubt he's actually good. If his games weren't all against Ds he would have been higher rank with that many games played in previous seasons.

On October 11 2015 16:23 ninazerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2015 13:56 NrG.Bamboo wrote:
JAJAJAJA YOUR BM COUNTRIES DON'T EVEN LISTING PERU
xDXDXDXDXDXDXDD


What's everyone's problem with Peru? Most of the time they don't lag, and they don't talk at all.

lol
<3 FlaSh HiyA Stats HoeJJa
remag
Profile Joined August 2009
Germany354 Posts
February 07 2017 09:55 GMT
#52
On February 07 2017 18:41 Sero wrote:
A+ in stomping noobs, but I doubt he's actually good. If his games weren't all against Ds he would have been higher rank with that many games played in previous seasons.

Show nested quote +
On October 11 2015 16:23 ninazerg wrote:
On October 11 2015 13:56 NrG.Bamboo wrote:
JAJAJAJA YOUR BM COUNTRIES DON'T EVEN LISTING PERU
xDXDXDXDXDXDXDD


What's everyone's problem with Peru? Most of the time they don't lag, and they don't talk at all.

lol

Exactly, even i haven't been able to come up with other variables and scenarios so whatever you've assumed after two seconds must be right.
Sero
Profile Joined October 2010
United States692 Posts
February 07 2017 10:33 GMT
#53
So why do you play that many games against D ranks then stop every season?
<3 FlaSh HiyA Stats HoeJJa
remag
Profile Joined August 2009
Germany354 Posts
February 07 2017 11:19 GMT
#54
On February 07 2017 19:33 Sero wrote:
So why do you play that many games against D ranks then stop every season?

You are already setting a premise that i allegedly try to achieve what? Also i would disagree with calling a handful of games "many games". This is a secondary Account used for quick sessions when nobody is around to play, i guess that is apparent, so no goal in Mind. And since the Point System starts of with D what am i supposed to do, since the reason behind switching over is the lack of other Players anyway since there is no other fallback. And also to elute more Points, offraceing, using diffrent strategies e.g. testing, praticeing wierd stuff, some sort of shenanigans and what not. Want me to throw in more Points that might not align with me but could also be possible? This could just go any direction...
Scarbo
Profile Joined January 2012
294 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-07 11:25:21
February 07 2017 11:25 GMT
#55
I like how he necros the thread with a quote, like the other guy was just waiting 1.5 years for someone to respond :D
Sero
Profile Joined October 2010
United States692 Posts
February 07 2017 11:57 GMT
#56
My mistake remag, you are good, but that's what new players are always complaining about. It's ok though, I'm all for it personally.
<3 FlaSh HiyA Stats HoeJJa
kogeT
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland2039 Posts
February 12 2017 23:08 GMT
#57
Remag always dodges me and bans from his games lol, combine that with his post above makes me think hes abusing d rankers.:D Ive once won him on fast nick and he would ban me further..
https://www.twitch.tv/kogetbw
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3128 Posts
February 12 2017 23:33 GMT
#58
On October 11 2015 11:47 ninazerg wrote:

To be perfectly fair, I have seen some good players, for whatever reason, play up to like C- and then just stop with an 18-0 record. I'm also sure there are some very insecure people who go "Time to slam some noobs' faces into the concrete". 99% of the time, these people are from the US and Canada


me...
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10182 Posts
February 13 2017 00:02 GMT
#59
On October 11 2015 22:06 endy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2015 16:23 ninazerg wrote:
On October 11 2015 13:56 NrG.Bamboo wrote:
JAJAJAJA YOUR BM COUNTRIES DON'T EVEN LISTING PERU
xDXDXDXDXDXDXDD


What's everyone's problem with Peru? Most of the time they don't lag, and they don't talk at all.


they do lag, but don't speak english well enough to bm properly.

if you get hit with the JAJAJAJJA its pretty bad BM
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
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