EPTSea vs. Bisu Fighting Spirit (fpvod) - Page 3
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CCa1ss1e
Canada3231 Posts
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zimp
Hungary951 Posts
On December 11 2014 15:05 DarkNetHunter wrote: i did start playing toss, and with very few practice i reached c rank with better ratio then ever before with terran. but i already wrote this down, have you read my posts?As much as I enjoy a good P imba rant, seriously, start playing Protoss if you're going to bitch about mechanical demands at C- level. On December 11 2014 15:05 DarkNetHunter wrote: when i play seriously, mechanics IS often the reason why i'm dying both in tvp and in tvz. my strategy/scouting/reactions are pretty good.Your mechanics suck balls, so what, that is not the reason you're dying horrible deaths in TvP. TvZ is a much more mechanically demanding matchup than TvP, yet you barely ever catch a Terran whining about TvZ, because it's a fucking ez matchup, you just have to be fast enough to execute your plan. Almost every TvZ loss can be traced back to your mechanics sucking, but most TvP losses it can be traced back to your strategy/scouting/reactions sucking. On December 11 2014 15:05 DarkNetHunter wrote: this is not an illusion. protoss mechanics is easier. i don't loose in "surprising fashion". i often loose to strategies that i scout, but they are too hard to stop, like multiple recalls or powergoon, etc.The reason you're whining is because you perceive a mechanical EFFORT imbalance between TvP and PvT. This again is an illusion, it's just easier to make strategic mistakes in TvP that cannot be rectified through superior mechanics as easily as in TvZ, so you will lose to players in seemingly more surprising fashion due to strategic errors. On December 11 2014 15:05 DarkNetHunter wrote: maybe its rant for you, because you don't understand it. but yea, i have some basic problems with starcraft which resulted in some level of disillusionment with bw... so i should play a different game.To get to your rant about balancing at all levels, in essence you're complaining about the very mechanics of starcraft, so basically you could also just play a different game. On December 11 2014 15:05 DarkNetHunter wrote: well, even if we would lower, tall people would still have an advantage. and as you can see, the game is obviously not fair, because almost all basketball players are tall.Basketball gives an advantage for tall people, okay instead of learning to deal with that by jumping higher, dribbling faster etc., why don't we just lower all the basketball hoops. Sprinting favours fast people, okay let's impose a speed limit so that in lower level competitions people can feel like they can keep pace with faster people. as for sprinting, its also obviously not fair. life is not fair. but if we try to make a complex game like starcraft, we should try to make it fair, at least for all races on all skill levels. On December 11 2014 15:05 DarkNetHunter wrote: well, that depends on your definition of better. if you say the player is the better, who did the right moves to win, then you are right. but in my opinion the better player is, who played with more skill in that game. and the two definitions aren't always concurrent. and this happens because of the imbalances of the game. creators should try to fix those, in order so that always the actually better player could be the better.Basically, if you're LOSING then you are the WORSE player, the better player always wins. That player was the better player for THAT game, it doesn't have to be statistically or over a period of time or within a certain rank range, but in the game you play, the better player wins in every specific game. On December 11 2014 16:04 Mirabel_ wrote: i play terran because its fun. i just get too frustrated by some situations.The question you should be asking yourself, zimp, is why you're preventing yourself from winning by using an option you find more difficult? It's okay not to care whether you win or lose, but you seem to care about it enough to make me wonder why you play Terran at all if you aren't aiming to be able to beat Protoss consistently with it. And it's a sad, modern perspective that a game should be balanced for the bell curve and not for the elite. Except in cases of extreme homogenization, it just results in a game that bends and breaks when you try and push it. and there's also a moral problem with switching to protoss entirely. that would mean that i just accept the fact that the game is imba, and then i just choose the easier option. as for your second point, i don't think it would be a sad modern perspective for bw to be as difficult for protoss as terran on all ranks. On December 11 2014 16:34 L_Master wrote: see my last reaction to DarkNetHunter about the definition of better.I read this a ton, and never has it made a lick of sense to me. What is meant by it? The player isn't weaker than you. This is what my climbing example was meant to illustrate. Someone beating you, by definition, cannot be worse than you (at least if we look at average performances to avoid volatility/"luck"). The player beating you IS the better PvTer. The skinny cyclist that beats "fitter" fatty to the top of the hill IS the better climber. On December 12 2014 16:56 JieXian wrote: it doesn't matter if i switch or not, my problem still remains with the game. and if i choose the easy way, then i'm weak. if i choose the hard, then i'm stupid, lolIf you "feel" P is easier, why don't you switch? If you "feel" T is harder and you picked it knowing it is harder and being aware of the challenges, why complain? On December 12 2014 19:14 ICanFlyLow wrote: where did i say that practice doesnt make a difference? i wrote that "by a feasible (and somewhat equal) amount of practice". please read what i write. and those top 4 players just prove my point, because they got superior while other progamers, practicing the same amount never did. please also understand what i write.There is talent involved but just because talent is involved, you cant say that practice doesnt make difference. Typically the best players in the proffesional korean scene were those who had been around for quite some time. The ones people considered to be top 4 (Bisu, Stork, Jaedong, Flash) started their careers around 2005 and their skill usually peaked 2-3 years after, same with savior and these people played 10+ hour a day. And when you say you cant get higher then C, thats just not true. Im sure there is plenty of stuff you can learn and become a much better player. and believe me, its true. i cannot get much better/higher without an unrealistic amount of practice. (mass BBS doesn't count) On December 13 2014 00:06 hariooo wrote: no. stupid decisions about making the game too easy and different killed it. i don't want what they did in sc2, i don't want the game to be easier, i just talk about certain balance problems. and i don't attribute my personal lack of skills to these. i try to think objectively about the things i see in games.Balancing for C to D level players is what killed SC2. Eugh. Balancing the game for all skill levels should not be a priority for any competitive game. Whiny players will never be satisfied with the game because any lack of personal skill will be attributed to the game not being balanced. On December 13 2014 04:12 TaShadan wrote: wow. C people have brains too, ok?Wow a guy with C skills whining about balance? Priceless! | ||
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Mirabel_
United States1768 Posts
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic621 Posts
On December 15 2014 03:59 Mirabel_ wrote: I think PvT is definitely harder than TvP past a certain level. I don't think anyone in the community will reach that level again, though. actually there are a lot of GOOD Foreigners Protoss players out there. but not at the level of Bisu and so on. | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1974 Posts
wow. C people have brains too, ok? Sure C people have brains. Insects have a brains too. I am really sad that someone like you was part of my favourite late era top broodwar clan sas. User was warned for this post | ||
tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
Props to you for playing terran and not taking the easier route by playing P because of the problems in tvp you are experiencing. Its okay to become frustrated and you are right - the game is not perfectly balanced on every skill level (how could it ever be?). I think we could agree that its less difficult to reach C with Protoss than its with Terran. Not that its easy for anybody. And remember it becomes harder for Protoss at B so Protoss is not the 'easy' race. Because that is kinda racist  Lets just agree that in terms of SC being a competitive esport, that its pretty fucking nice that on the top level the game is as balanced as it is. Terran is demanding. But terran is also a really cool race with a lot of depth and strategies. And i think you, zimp, play terran because you like that depth and also the challenge of playing a race that is comparatively harder than protoss at C level. But that does not mean that you also dont want to win and hence the frustration. I dont think you are whiner and keep playing terran because that is awsome! Have fun! | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On December 15 2014 07:08 tanngard wrote: I just wanted to say to zimp: Props to you for playing terran and not taking the easier route by playing P because of the problems in tvp you are experiencing. Its okay to become frustrated and you are right - the game is not perfectly balanced on every skill level (how could it ever be?). I think we could agree that its less difficult to reach C with Protoss than its with Terran. Not that its easy for anybody. And remember it becomes harder for Protoss at B so Protoss is not the 'easy' race. Because that is kinda racist Lets just agree that in terms of SC being a competitive esport, that its pretty fucking nice that on the top level the game is as balanced as it is. Terran is demanding. But terran is also a really cool race with a lot of depth and strategies. And i think you, zimp, play terran because you like that depth and also the challenge of playing a race that is comparatively harder than protoss at C level. But that does not mean that you also dont want to win and hence the frustration. I dont think you are whiner and keep playing terran because that is awsome! Have fun! No, we can not all agree. I don't think it to be true, that Protoss is easier than terran or zerg at C level. To me, PvT is easier than TvP but TvZ is easier than PvZ. that evens it out, i feel. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
Dropships shouldn't be a gimmick that destroy all probes if the Protoss is out of position, but completely worthless if he is ready. Same with storm drops, mutalisks, and, yes, recalls. I don't think that's fair. Crossing your fingers and hoping he's out of position is not what a good player does. A good player is thinking about the opponent's concentration, how to misdirect it, and then reap the reward. Very simple concepts like storm drop when you make an attack, scan before you drop, hide your tech and clear a path with your main army as part of your drop plan... A simple fake to make the opponent's army move where you want it to move. Tactics like these stop it from being a gimmick. That gif of the arbiter getting emp'd really looks egregious. I don't know if that happens every time, if the recall animation takes a second to show or what. I don't think recall turns into a gimmick if you don't make terran emp the arb 3 seconds in advance of when it recalls. I don't know about for statis and storm vs emp, because tank vulture can't really be beat consistently with zealot dragoon alone (although you can try with shuttle bombs). While we're on the topic tho, it sucks pretty hard that broodling doesn't work if the queen dies before the broodling hits lol. But maybe that too would make queens too strong  It's an interesting discussion how these little idiosyncrasies in Brood War affect balance. I would say that the list is mammoth and that 99% of the time it doesn't really decide the game especially when both players are aware. Like burrowing a lurker under a building seems pretty unfair, but how often does it come up? Protoss players lose lots of goons if they don't babysit them more than other units, vessels need more babysitting too to be really effective vs protoss. Things kinda even out, and part of what makes good players good is how they can spare the concentration for it even when a million things are going on. Also scourge are the dumbest units in the game, but their dumb ai is one of the really abusable things in BW that can make exciting moments, and their dumb ai can be overcome a little.BW is a weird combination of being interesting in part because of its faults, and in part in spite of them It's very much a perspective and context thing which fault is in which category. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On December 15 2014 07:48 Chef wrote: I don't think that's fair. Crossing your fingers and hoping he's out of position is not what a good player does. A good player is thinking about the opponent's concentration, how to misdirect it, and then reap the reward. Very simple concepts like storm drop when you make an attack, scan before you drop, hide your tech and clear a path with your main army as part of your drop plan... A simple fake to make the opponent's army move where you want it to move. Tactics like these stop it from being a gimmick. That gif of the arbiter getting emp'd really looks egregious. I don't know if that happens every time, if the recall animation takes a second to show or what. I don't think recall turns into a gimmick if you don't make terran emp the arb 3 seconds in advance of when it recalls. I don't know about for statis and storm vs emp, because tank vulture can't really be beat consistently with zealot dragoon alone (although you can try with shuttle bombs). While we're on the topic tho, it sucks pretty hard that broodling doesn't work if the queen dies before the broodling hits lol. But maybe that too would make queens too strong It's an interesting discussion how these little idiosyncrasies in Brood War affect balance. I would say that the list is mammoth and that 99% of the time it doesn't really decide the game especially when both players are aware. Like burrowing a lurker under a building seems pretty unfair, but how often does it come up? Protoss players lose lots of goons if they don't babysit them more than other units, vessels need more babysitting too to be really effective vs protoss. Things kinda even out, and part of what makes good players good is how they can spare the concentration for it even when a million things are going on. Also scourge are the dumbest units in the game, but their dumb ai is one of the really abusable things in BW that can make exciting moments, and their dumb ai can be overcome a little.BW is a weird combination of being interesting in part because of its faults, and in part in spite of them It's very much a perspective and context thing which fault is in which category.that's an very interesting position your bringing in! nice read | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
not us | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 17 2014 00:48 Boonbag wrote: only person allowed to reformulate BW in any way is god not us So, you mean Flash? | ||
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mauwee
Vatican City State78 Posts
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Starecat
938 Posts
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Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
On January 17 2015 00:34 Starecat wrote: Cant' watch the video... Why? because http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/429855-recommended-snipealot-games?page=60#1182 I put it as unlisted for you should be able to watch it through the link now. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
On January 17 2015 00:34 Starecat wrote: Cant' watch the video... Why? Bisu wants his vods off of youtube because he is going to upload his vods himself. | ||
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On January 17 2015 01:07 c3rberUs wrote: Bisu wants his vods off of youtube because he is going to upload his vods himself. Greedy Bisu is Greedy I'm glad progamers are taking some awereness of their economical value. Specially Bisu, his play is just different to everyone else, specially p v z. For example, I've seen him lately stack 2 observers and jam them into the terrans base to scout properly and counter the standard turret ring. While pretty simple play, Bisu keeps coming up with new stuff. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3128 Posts
Honestly my PvZ is probably better than my PvT since its so easy to scout zerg and harder to die to cheeses. | ||
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TheGreatOne
United States534 Posts
On December 10 2014 11:28 BisuDagger wrote: This was the series Bisu played mouse only. I remember this well! Did he really play with just his hands? He has every other top terran figured out. He also struggled against flash though. Shuttle seems to have sea's number though, according to stats, which doesn't make sense since bisu > shuttle. | ||
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