EPTOmg.. Sea is just awesome.. this video def. helps me out with all things that I have trouble with in TvP. Esp on Fighting Spirit. This is a must watch if your a Terran player that gets owned by Protoss all the time.
Sea vs. Bisu Fighting Spirit (fpvod)
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nobot87
United States23 Posts
Omg.. Sea is just awesome.. this video def. helps me out with all things that I have trouble with in TvP. Esp on Fighting Spirit. This is a must watch if your a Terran player that gets owned by Protoss all the time. | ||
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Filco
France154 Posts
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nobot87
United States23 Posts
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salito
1647 Posts
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KameZerg
Sweden1757 Posts
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SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
On December 10 2014 07:53 ICanFlyLow wrote: What the hell? Look at 20:55, the arbiter got hit by the EMP but still recalled... ? Yea that has happened to me before. Bisu must of hit recall as it was getting emped so it did anyways. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10664 Posts
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Yaqoob
Canada3319 Posts
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ArmadA[NaS]
United States346 Posts
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Jaded.
United States125 Posts
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prech
United States2948 Posts
 Here's the rest of this Bo5 series http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=23412785 | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19201 Posts
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wmb
Sweden282 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On December 10 2014 07:53 ICanFlyLow wrote: What the hell? Look at 20:55, the arbiter got hit by the EMP but still recalled... ? If you remove the arbiter's energy when it has already started the recall sequence, it is too late. There's a delay between starting the sequence, and any graphical signs being given. I actually like that it is this way. It's good for the game's balance, and makes both stasis and recall stronger. Recalls especially become less of a gimmick and more of a solid option because of this. If EMP instantly stopped arbiters, then recalls would never work if the Terran was paying attention, but always work if he was not That wouldn't be very good. | ||
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zimp
Hungary951 Posts
On December 10 2014 13:01 vOdToasT wrote: If you remove the arbiter's energy when it has already started the recall sequence, it is too late. There's a delay between starting the sequence, and any graphical signs being given. I actually like that it is this way. It's good for the game's balance, and makes both stasis and recall stronger. Recalls especially become less of a gimmick and more of a solid option because of this. If EMP instantly stopped arbiters, then recalls would never work if the Terran was paying attention, but always work if he was not That wouldn't be very good. lol. Protoss users miss common sense and logic too often. You like it because you are a protoss and you like that it helps you. I really dislike how emp works because it makes stasis imbalanced, and it worsens the already imbalanced recall. Recalls SHOULD be more of a gimmick, and not a race-threatening tactic, a "solid option". If EMP instantly stopped arbiters, then recalls would never work if the Terran was paying attention, but always work if he was not. Why wouldn't that be very good? That would be very good and fair. Let me explain. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9BeIFgR.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/doFt1sW.gif) Even if the terran pays attention and reacts faster, the recall may be casted because of the delay between the start of the emp animation and the empwave hitting. So the terran player reacts faster, but still the protoss player "wins". How is that good and fair ROFL If EMP worked instantly, that would be fair. The game should favorize the player with the faster reaction. In bw, now, the terran player not only has to see the arbiter on the minimap, go there, hit a moving target with a moving delayed emp, but also he has to do it way faster than the protoss. It's clearly not right this way LOL Not to mention stasis, cause that's even worse. It often happens that the vessel starts to go towards an arbiter, so the terran already casted his spell, but later than that, the arbiter casts a stasis, which has basicly instant casting time and even greater radius, so the vessel is stopped (and the emp casted into nothing after the freeze) or often times killed. so the terran had a way faster reaction, but still the toss won the "spell battle". | ||
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
in the gif the vessel should ideally be nearer to the cliff edge when the arbiter arrives which would allow the terran to spot and land the emp on the arbiter faster. the problem is even for a single base there are lot of angles of entry to cover and its much easier on the toss side to spot a gap in the turret/vessel defence. which can still be shored up with preemptive mines on probable recall spots. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On December 10 2014 14:31 zimp wrote: lol. Protoss users miss common sense and logic too often. You like it because you are a protoss and you like that it helps you. I really dislike how emp works because it makes stasis imbalanced, and it worsens the already imbalanced recall. Recalls SHOULD be more of a gimmick, and not a race-threatening tactic, a "solid option". If EMP instantly stopped arbiters, then recalls would never work if the Terran was paying attention, but always work if he was not. Why wouldn't that be very good? That would be very good and fair. Let me explain. Even if the terran pays attention and reacts faster, the recall may be casted because of the delay between the start of the emp animation and the empwave hitting. So the terran player reacts faster, but still the protoss player "wins". How is that good and fair ROFL If EMP worked instantly, that would be fair. The game should favorize the player with the faster reaction. In bw, now, the terran player not only has to see the arbiter on the minimap, go there, hit a moving target with a moving delayed emp, but also he has to do it way faster than the protoss. It's clearly not right this way LOL Not to mention stasis, cause that's even worse. It often happens that the vessel starts to go towards an arbiter, so the terran already casted his spell, but later than that, the arbiter casts a stasis, which has basicly instant casting time and even greater radius, so the vessel is stopped (and the emp casted into nothing after the freeze) or often times killed. so the terran had a way faster reaction, but still the toss won the "spell battle". Except Voddy has played all races as his main, not to mention as far as I know he currently mains terran as well. Not to mention just because you play a certain race doesn't have any impact on rational thoughts on whether something is good or bad...unless you use "is it good for ME?" as your basis, but if you do that then at that point you're not being rational. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On December 10 2014 14:31 zimp wrote: lol. Protoss users miss common sense and logic too often. You like it because you are a protoss and you like that it helps you. I really dislike how emp works because it makes stasis imbalanced, and it worsens the already imbalanced recall. Recalls SHOULD be more of a gimmick, and not a race-threatening tactic, a "solid option". If EMP instantly stopped arbiters, then recalls would never work if the Terran was paying attention, but always work if he was not. Why wouldn't that be very good? That would be very good and fair. Even if the terran pays attention and reacts faster, the recall may be casted because of the delay between the start of the emp animation and the empwave hitting. So the terran player reacts faster, but still the protoss player "wins". How is that good and fair ROFL If EMP worked instantly, that would be fair. The game should favorize the player with the faster reaction. In bw, now, the terran player not only has to see the arbiter on the minimap, go there, hit a moving target with a moving delayed emp, but also he has to do it way faster than the protoss. It's clearly not right this way LOL Not to mention stasis, cause that's even worse. It often happens that the vessel starts to go towards an arbiter, so the terran already casted his spell, but later than that, the arbiter casts a stasis, which has basicly instant casting time and even greater radius, so the vessel is stopped (and the emp casted into nothing after the freeze) or often times killed. so the terran had a way faster reaction, but still the toss won the "spell battle". I play Terran Get rid of your baseless preconceived notions As for your second point, I don't like gimmicks. I like for every thing to be solid. The way EMP and spells work now, gives a higher skill ceiling than the alternative. Dropships shouldn't be a gimmick that destroy all probes if the Protoss is out of position, but completely worthless if he is ready. Same with storm drops, mutalisks, and, yes, recalls. Your argument about reaction time is invalid, because Protoss needs to fly in to position in order to recall. Therefor, if EMP negated spells instantly, the Terran would be able to defend vs recalls every single time just by paying attention, since the arbiter needs to fly a long way to a good spot. It would literally be that simple. The way it is now, there are more variables, more depth, a higher skill ceiling, and it's more interesting. It's very satisfying to position a science vessel very far out, so that the arbiter couldn't possibly fly past it - despite the delay. This makes the Protoss want to fly around the vessel and approach from an other angle, since the further out you are, the more defended that angle is, but the less defended other angles are. What the protoss doesn't know, is that the other spots have mines everywhere. You lure the Protoss to recall on to mines. You can also use an opposite method. You can have vessels close to the base, so that every angle is defended decently, but not well enough to deal with the delay. However, this forces the protoss to recall on the edge, and not at the center, which means that if you have mines and turrets around the edge, he has to recall on to mines. By the way, in the GIF that you posted, the science vessel was massively out of posiiton. | ||
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zimp
Hungary951 Posts
but i don't get how can you think that way, i mean i get your points, and these could be right if things happened like that in practice. but in reality, on the level of an average bw player, "just by paying attention", its almost impossible to spot an incoming arbiter and react to it in time. it happens maybe 1 out of 5 or 10 times. a lot of times you don't even have emp yet when the first recall comes. the point with the positioning and mines are similar too. you can position your vessel somewhere, but the arbiters can come from a lot of directions. you can mine some part of your base, but don't have time for all, and even if you lay some mines, most of his units survive even if landing on top of it. all these things require high input of apm and skill from the terran and low level of apm and skill from the toss. i get that on pro level, it might be different, but thats not all that matters, i rather think it's less important than the games of the masses. if there's no balance on D-C level, the game is not right. and thats my experience of it as a player too, i am a C rank terran, and sometimes C-/D+ tosses beat me with recalls, or achieve a close game. AND i recently started playing toss and i achieved C even easier against T than with my original race, raping lower level terrans, and even winning vs C, sometimes higher ranked terrans with recall. and by the way, the vessel was not "massively out of position". it was in the middle of the base (12 oclock). if it was more to the south, than an arbiter from the left would be even worse. | ||
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zimp
Hungary951 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
if there's no balance on D-C level, the game is not right. and thats my experience of it as a player too, i am a C rank terran, and sometimes C-/D+ tosses beat me with recalls, or achieve a close game. AND i recently started playing toss and i achieved C even easier against T than with my original race, raping lower level terrans, and even winning vs C, sometimes higher ranked terrans with recall. I do not, and will not, ever understand this sentiment. Balance, even at D ranks, is generally irrelevant. In fact, I'll go so far as to say balance is a concept that exists only at the absolute top skill level. If you lose to a protoss, or I lose to a zerg, we are not losing due to imbalance, but because the player is better than us in that matchup. If you're losing to C- tosses then your TvP is C- level, with perhaps C/C+ ranks in the other matchups. Either that or those D+ tosses you're playing happen to have C level PvT. But why is the fact that it's easier for a toss to have C PvT than it is for a terran to have C TvP matter? If you play against an equal rank player in that matchup, then you'll both win/lose about 50% of the games. That's why balance at lower levels doesn't matter that much, because "balance" is achieved via who you can play against. We can only speak of imbalance if the best players of one race cannot match the skill in XvY that the other race players can achieve in YvX. Everyone else is losing because of a difference in skill in that matchup. | ||
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zimp
Hungary951 Posts
On December 10 2014 17:20 L_Master wrote: I do not, and will not, ever understand this sentiment. Balance, even at D ranks, is generally irrelevant. In fact, I'll go so far as to say balance is a concept that exists only at the absolute top skill level. If you lose to a protoss, or I lose to a zerg, we are not losing due to imbalance, but because the player is better than us in that matchup. but why is he better? does he have more skill? it might be, because that matchup is easier. On December 10 2014 17:20 L_Master wrote: If you're losing to C- tosses then your TvP is C- level, with perhaps C/C+ ranks in the other matchups. Either that or those D+ tosses you're playing happen to have C level PvT. But why is the fact that it's easier for a toss to have C PvT than it is for a terran to have C TvP matter? If you play against an equal rank player in that matchup, then you'll both win/lose about 50% of the games. why does it matter? it matters because if one matchup is easier than the other, it means the game is imbalanced. it means that a certain ranked P player is less skilled than an equal ranked terran player, so the game is imbalanced. if i, or anyone is able achieve the same or even better rank with P with 10 times less practice than his main race, that means that P is easier and therefore the game is imbalanced. if statistics (ranking is statistics) show that one race is winning more than the other, that means... guess what, the game is imbalanced. whats so hard to understand in this? i'm not talking about my rank in any matchup, i'm talking about the game in general. lets look at another example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-move_advantage_in_chess this article says that gosu chess players have an 52-56% winning percentage with white pieces, which is clearly a problem with the game (imbalance). [but note, that in chess, they switch colors every match, thus lowering the significance of this problem, while in bw we usually play with one race, so we're worsening it. and the artice also says that this percentage is lower in novice games, so it's the opposite of bw in that sense.] even if there is a player who is so good that he can win more with black or unbeatable, that doesn't mean that the game is not imbalanced. maybe this "advantage" word sounds better for it. P has some advantage vs T. and we all know it, P>T>Z>P, but this advantage became too big with the use of modern strategies like mass recall on maps like FS, where the expansions are so easly defendable for p, and so hard to defend vs recalls. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
Once you stop sucking, you'll beat the Protoss. Then when he stops sucking, he'll go back to beating you. And for a while, he'll be ahead of you in this ladder. But eventually, when both of you fix holes in your play, you will advance up next to him, and it will become even. It is only in the beginning of the ladder that he gets higher than you for putting in the same amount of effort and skill. If you don't want to deal with this problem, then just play Protoss (it's the most popular race for a reason). But this won't help you much. You'll get stuck in PvT soon enough. The main reason that I can't respect TvP whining that much, is that I've gotten to the point at which PvT is harder for me than TvP, since I play Terran and not Protoss. If I switched to playing Protoss, then eventually TvP would become harder. But the point is, that which ever race I currently play, becomes the easiest. And I'm not even good. Furthermore, I only care about imbalance when the game is being pushed to its limit. When both races are utilized to their fullest. And luckily for me, at that level of play (and even way below that level) the game is well balanced. If you play at this level, then your opponent is so good that simply being better than him isn't an option, because both you and your opponent have reached the final level of play. You have to surprise him and seriously outsmart him. If it's imbalanced at this level, then you feel helpless. And that is the real problem: Helplessness. When you're approaching the skill ceiling, and even though you are playing so damn well, your opponent's race simply beats your race 60 - 70% of the time, then you know you picked the wrong game to get good at. This is what every fighting game in existence is like. Not to mention that they're fucking rock paper scissor guessing games. I hate fighting games. I should really stop playing them. The "imbalance" in StarCraft is only a temporary problem, that is solved by ascending to the next level. It's just like how playing a guitar is boring as fuck when you're bad at it, but becomes more fun the better you get. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
if statistics (ranking is statistics) show that one race is winning more than the other, that means... guess what, the game is imbalanced. whats so hard to understand in this? IF the statistics showed this at the top level, then we would indeed have a problem. Fortunately for BW, this is not the case. TvP in the SOSPA era favors terran by just a bit statistically. FS in particular is fairly strongly terran favored with T winning 53.3% of games. CB, interestingly, is even more insane, with terran winning almost 60%. So no, I don't agree that there is any imbalance at the top level, and the SOSPA statistics back this up. You saw it towards the end of BW, and it has progressed into the SOSPA era, with terrans learning how to deal with protosses historically "imba" stuff. The MU, in the current map pool, is no longer imbalanced, and if anything actually favors terran. If the game is free from imbalance at the top level, the "skill ceiling" so to speak, then there isn't imbalance. It just means it's easy to learn PvT than it is to learn TvP. If it takes a protoss 10x less work to reach C in PvT than it does for a terran to be C in TvP...what does that matter? You can still find games at your rank and if you play at your rank any imbalance concept doesn't exist. Since there is no imbalance at the top, the fact that it is easier to make C- as a toss is irrelevant, because as some point toss will have to work just as hard to reach a higher rank whether that is B on iccup, C on fish, or A on fish. I'm guessing what makes you feel "imbalance" is your just going by global rank, and so you as a terran play a D+ toss and struggle in a close game and think "wow, some D+ fucker damn near beat me. wtf.". But the truth is that your TvP is probably around C- whereas his PvT is also around C- and thus the game is close. The protoss is NOT less skilled than you, in PvT, despite his rank. Any person beating you consistently in a MU is not less skilled than you. They are more skilled, by definition. As a final, more conceptually easy to understand analogy let me use cycling. All else equal, someone that is lighter will go up climbs much faster than a heavier cyclist, less weight against gravity. So, lets take two equal height cyclists but one is a twig at 60kg, whereas the other is strong and muscle bound at 80kg. The 80kg guy could be a far stronger cyclist in terms of cardiorespiratory fitness, perhaps putting out 300 watts of power vs 240 watts for the twig. However, get to a big hill and the twig will get to the top first. The bigger cyclist might be "fitter" but when it comes to climbing everyone will agree and say that the twig is a better CLIMBER. Maybe not a better overall cyclist, but certainly a better climber. The same as true of PvT/TvP, the mid level terran might have better mechanics and crisper play than the protoss, but the protoss could still be the better PvTer. | ||
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lemmata
468 Posts
Anyhow, fun video. | ||
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therockmanxx
Peru1174 Posts
Recall always works first ! | ||
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zimp
Hungary951 Posts
i mean nice reactions - "stop sucking." thank you. "The "imbalance" in StarCraft is only a temporary problem, that is solved by ascending to the next level" - wow. let me tell you a secret. i can not ascend any more. there is a certain skill level that people can reach by a feasible (and somewhat equal) amount of practice. that is C for me, B for you, etc. never wondered why some progamers play for 10 years, and they never get to the top? thats why. because your starcraft skill depends a lot on your talent. its not the only factor, but its a huge factor. strategy is just one part, mechanics is the other. and on my level terran is just way more mechanically demanding than P, thats why i'm whining. L_Master: i carefully wrote that i'm not talking about the top level, but ours. even if top level is balanced, it doesn't mean that the game is balanced alltogether. it should be like that on every skill level. then you continued to ignore what i wrote and you repeated what you wrote before. "the fact that it is easier to make C- as a toss is irrelevant" - its not irrelevant. it matters because the majority of people play on lower ranks, so their game should be fair too. what makes me "feel" imbalance is not that my "TvP is probably around C- whereas his PvT is also around C- and thus the game is close". It's the view of certain situations in the game. When i feel that a player is weaker than me, and still wins by exploiting the imbalances in the game. and in your cycling analogy, you just described what imbalance is. the twig has an advantage, because he is lighter. the bigger cyclist has more skill (muscle) but the imbalance in the sport helped the twig. he is a better climber only because of that. Just as taller people have an advantage in basketball, thats why they play it. just as Protoss has an advantage in bw, thats why the majority of people play toss, cause its easier, yo. thats why they made weight groups in boxing, people try to fix imbalance in life. But noone tries to fix imbalance in SC anymore because its harder to see and its an old game. | ||
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DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
Your mechanics suck balls, so what, that is not the reason you're dying horrible deaths in TvP. TvZ is a much more mechanically demanding matchup than TvP, yet you barely ever catch a Terran whining about TvZ, because it's a fucking ez matchup, you just have to be fast enough to execute your plan. Almost every TvZ loss can be traced back to your mechanics sucking, but most TvP losses it can be traced back to your strategy/scouting/reactions sucking. The reason you're whining is because you perceive a mechanical EFFORT imbalance between TvP and PvT. This again is an illusion, it's just easier to make strategic mistakes in TvP that cannot be rectified through superior mechanics as easily as in TvZ, so you will lose to players in seemingly more surprising fashion due to strategic errors. To get to your rant about balancing at all levels, in essence you're complaining about the very mechanics of starcraft, so basically you could also just play a different game. Basketball gives an advantage for tall people, okay instead of learning to deal with that by jumping higher, dribbling faster etc., why don't we just lower all the basketball hoops. Sprinting favours fast people, okay let's impose a speed limit so that in lower level competitions people can feel like they can keep pace with faster people. Basically, if you're LOSING then you are the WORSE player, the better player always wins. That player was the better player for THAT game, it doesn't have to be statistically or over a period of time or within a certain rank range, but in the game you play, the better player wins in every specific game. | ||
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Mirabel_
United States1768 Posts
And it's a sad, modern perspective that a game should be balanced for the bell curve and not for the elite. Except in cases of extreme homogenization, it just results in a game that bends and breaks when you try and push it. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
"the fact that it is easier to make C- as a toss is irrelevant" - its not irrelevant. it matters because the majority of people play on lower ranks, so their game should be fair too. But that's just it. It IS fair if you play someone at equal rank in that matchup. By definition of rank, if you play someone of equal rank you win 50% of the games, and thus it is perfectly balanced. Imbalance doesn't affect a player at all until the top level of play because of this, as you just end up being matched against opponents that at your play level. Now you can bitch a little because ICCup system is shitty, but that has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with ICCup. With a more appropriate ranking system you would never "see" any imbalance because you'd be playing games against people you would win 50% and lose 50%...which is the general definition of what we consider perfect balance. I kinda like where DNH is going with this. Look at how any other sport, which has the great, omnipotent imbalance of "genetics" which is we are honest is 100x more imbalanced than some modest difference in starcraft matchup difficulty. They don't modify the game for people lower down. Basketball doesn't lower the hoop so the average person can dunk. Baseball doesn't shorten the field so homeruns can be easily hit by Joe rec league player. Cycling doesn't take out hills so fatties can more easily compete with the skinny guys. You know how all these sports handle the imbalance of genetics? You guessed it, different levels of competition. Which sounds an awful lot like...ranks in starcraft. When i feel that a player is weaker than me, and still wins by exploiting the imbalances in the game. I read this a ton, and never has it made a lick of sense to me. What is meant by it? The player isn't weaker than you. This is what my climbing example was meant to illustrate. Someone beating you, by definition, cannot be worse than you (at least if we look at average performances to avoid volatility/"luck"). The player beating you IS the better PvTer. The skinny cyclist that beats "fitter" fatty to the top of the hill IS the better climber. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10664 Posts
EDIT : lol Zimp I can't believe that someone who is supposed to be an expert an analyzing BW replays is now talking about how Protoss is imbalanced and easier to play, never really listened to your opinion anyways but now it is just cemented. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On December 11 2014 08:49 zimp wrote: i'm just wasting my time here too. i mean nice reactions - "stop sucking." thank you. "The "imbalance" in StarCraft is only a temporary problem, that is solved by ascending to the next level" - wow. let me tell you a secret. i can not ascend any more. there is a certain skill level that people can reach by a feasible (and somewhat equal) amount of practice. that is C for me, B for you, etc. never wondered why some progamers play for 10 years, and they never get to the top? thats why. because your starcraft skill depends a lot on your talent. its not the only factor, but its a huge factor. strategy is just one part, mechanics is the other. and on my level terran is just way more mechanically demanding than P, thats why i'm whining. L_Master: i carefully wrote that i'm not talking about the top level, but ours. even if top level is balanced, it doesn't mean that the game is balanced alltogether. it should be like that on every skill level. then you continued to ignore what i wrote and you repeated what you wrote before. "the fact that it is easier to make C- as a toss is irrelevant" - its not irrelevant. it matters because the majority of people play on lower ranks, so their game should be fair too. what makes me "feel" imbalance is not that my "TvP is probably around C- whereas his PvT is also around C- and thus the game is close". It's the view of certain situations in the game. When i feel that a player is weaker than me, and still wins by exploiting the imbalances in the game. and in your cycling analogy, you just described what imbalance is. the twig has an advantage, because he is lighter. the bigger cyclist has more skill (muscle) but the imbalance in the sport helped the twig. he is a better climber only because of that. Just as taller people have an advantage in basketball, thats why they play it. just as Protoss has an advantage in bw, thats why the majority of people play toss, cause its easier, yo. thats why they made weight groups in boxing, people try to fix imbalance in life. But noone tries to fix imbalance in SC anymore because its harder to see and its an old game. If you "feel" P is easier, why don't you switch? If you "feel" T is harder and you picked it knowing it is harder and being aware of the challenges, why complain? | ||
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KameZerg
Sweden1757 Posts
On December 11 2014 08:49 zimp wrote: i'm just wasting my time here too. i mean nice reactions - "stop sucking." thank you. "The "imbalance" in StarCraft is only a temporary problem, that is solved by ascending to the next level" - wow. let me tell you a secret. i can not ascend any more. there is a certain skill level that people can reach by a feasible (and somewhat equal) amount of practice. that is C for me, B for you, etc. never wondered why some progamers play for 10 years, and they never get to the top? thats why. because your starcraft skill depends a lot on your talent. There is talent involved but just because talent is involved, you cant say that practice doesnt make difference. Typically the best players in the proffesional korean scene were those who had been around for quite some time. The ones people considered to be top 4 (Bisu, Stork, Jaedong, Flash) started their careers around 2005 and their skill usually peaked 2-3 years after, same with savior and these people played 10+ hour a day. And when you say you cant get higher then C, thats just not true. Im sure there is plenty of stuff you can learn and become a much better player. | ||
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TT1
Canada9990 Posts
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
zerg is the best on paper but requires very smart and talented person terran is where multi ability of a player will often shine the most, having very good mechanics as T at highest level of play makes you already a formidable opponent against about anything you might face imo protoss : guts terran : hands zerg : brain | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4676 Posts
I mean, yes sieging/unsieging, stim, micro, vesselplay, dropships and all that jazz is tough, but the potential for zerg, dark swarm, ling/hydra/cow "micro", egg maintenance, queen play, overlord movement. It just seems Zerg might have alot more relevant stuff to take into account, if you'd ideally look at the way this game can be played | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
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TaShadan
Germany1965 Posts
On December 11 2014 08:49 zimp wrote: i'm just wasting my time here too. i mean nice reactions - "stop sucking." thank you. "The "imbalance" in StarCraft is only a temporary problem, that is solved by ascending to the next level" - wow. let me tell you a secret. i can not ascend any more. there is a certain skill level that people can reach by a feasible (and somewhat equal) amount of practice. that is C for me, B for you, etc. never wondered why some progamers play for 10 years, and they never get to the top? thats why. because your starcraft skill depends a lot on your talent. its not the only factor, but its a huge factor. strategy is just one part, mechanics is the other. and on my level terran is just way more mechanically demanding than P, thats why i'm whining. L_Master: i carefully wrote that i'm not talking about the top level, but ours. even if top level is balanced, it doesn't mean that the game is balanced alltogether. it should be like that on every skill level. then you continued to ignore what i wrote and you repeated what you wrote before. "the fact that it is easier to make C- as a toss is irrelevant" - its not irrelevant. it matters because the majority of people play on lower ranks, so their game should be fair too. what makes me "feel" imbalance is not that my "TvP is probably around C- whereas his PvT is also around C- and thus the game is close". It's the view of certain situations in the game. When i feel that a player is weaker than me, and still wins by exploiting the imbalances in the game. and in your cycling analogy, you just described what imbalance is. the twig has an advantage, because he is lighter. the bigger cyclist has more skill (muscle) but the imbalance in the sport helped the twig. he is a better climber only because of that. Just as taller people have an advantage in basketball, thats why they play it. just as Protoss has an advantage in bw, thats why the majority of people play toss, cause its easier, yo. thats why they made weight groups in boxing, people try to fix imbalance in life. But noone tries to fix imbalance in SC anymore because its harder to see and its an old game. Wow a guy with C skills whining about balance? Priceless! | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On December 12 2014 20:35 Boonbag wrote: p is the worst at highest lvl of play zerg is the best on paper but requires very smart and talented person terran is where multi ability of a player will often shine the most, having very good mechanics as T at highest level of play makes you already a formidable opponent against about anything you might face imo protoss : guts terran : hands zerg : brain Fuck it, Im swapping to terran. Im all hands, no brains | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On December 13 2014 04:53 amazingxkcd wrote: Fuck it, Im swapping to terran. Im all hands, no brains u need korean metal chopstick trained spider hands to deliver and undergo arm surgery later on so you can keep owning | ||
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CCa1ss1e
Canada3231 Posts
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zimp
Hungary951 Posts
On December 11 2014 15:05 DarkNetHunter wrote: i did start playing toss, and with very few practice i reached c rank with better ratio then ever before with terran. but i already wrote this down, have you read my posts?As much as I enjoy a good P imba rant, seriously, start playing Protoss if you're going to bitch about mechanical demands at C- level. On December 11 2014 15:05 DarkNetHunter wrote: when i play seriously, mechanics IS often the reason why i'm dying both in tvp and in tvz. my strategy/scouting/reactions are pretty good.Your mechanics suck balls, so what, that is not the reason you're dying horrible deaths in TvP. TvZ is a much more mechanically demanding matchup than TvP, yet you barely ever catch a Terran whining about TvZ, because it's a fucking ez matchup, you just have to be fast enough to execute your plan. Almost every TvZ loss can be traced back to your mechanics sucking, but most TvP losses it can be traced back to your strategy/scouting/reactions sucking. On December 11 2014 15:05 DarkNetHunter wrote: this is not an illusion. protoss mechanics is easier. i don't loose in "surprising fashion". i often loose to strategies that i scout, but they are too hard to stop, like multiple recalls or powergoon, etc.The reason you're whining is because you perceive a mechanical EFFORT imbalance between TvP and PvT. This again is an illusion, it's just easier to make strategic mistakes in TvP that cannot be rectified through superior mechanics as easily as in TvZ, so you will lose to players in seemingly more surprising fashion due to strategic errors. On December 11 2014 15:05 DarkNetHunter wrote: maybe its rant for you, because you don't understand it. but yea, i have some basic problems with starcraft which resulted in some level of disillusionment with bw... so i should play a different game.To get to your rant about balancing at all levels, in essence you're complaining about the very mechanics of starcraft, so basically you could also just play a different game. On December 11 2014 15:05 DarkNetHunter wrote: well, even if we would lower, tall people would still have an advantage. and as you can see, the game is obviously not fair, because almost all basketball players are tall.Basketball gives an advantage for tall people, okay instead of learning to deal with that by jumping higher, dribbling faster etc., why don't we just lower all the basketball hoops. Sprinting favours fast people, okay let's impose a speed limit so that in lower level competitions people can feel like they can keep pace with faster people. as for sprinting, its also obviously not fair. life is not fair. but if we try to make a complex game like starcraft, we should try to make it fair, at least for all races on all skill levels. On December 11 2014 15:05 DarkNetHunter wrote: well, that depends on your definition of better. if you say the player is the better, who did the right moves to win, then you are right. but in my opinion the better player is, who played with more skill in that game. and the two definitions aren't always concurrent. and this happens because of the imbalances of the game. creators should try to fix those, in order so that always the actually better player could be the better.Basically, if you're LOSING then you are the WORSE player, the better player always wins. That player was the better player for THAT game, it doesn't have to be statistically or over a period of time or within a certain rank range, but in the game you play, the better player wins in every specific game. On December 11 2014 16:04 Mirabel_ wrote: i play terran because its fun. i just get too frustrated by some situations.The question you should be asking yourself, zimp, is why you're preventing yourself from winning by using an option you find more difficult? It's okay not to care whether you win or lose, but you seem to care about it enough to make me wonder why you play Terran at all if you aren't aiming to be able to beat Protoss consistently with it. And it's a sad, modern perspective that a game should be balanced for the bell curve and not for the elite. Except in cases of extreme homogenization, it just results in a game that bends and breaks when you try and push it. and there's also a moral problem with switching to protoss entirely. that would mean that i just accept the fact that the game is imba, and then i just choose the easier option. as for your second point, i don't think it would be a sad modern perspective for bw to be as difficult for protoss as terran on all ranks. On December 11 2014 16:34 L_Master wrote: see my last reaction to DarkNetHunter about the definition of better.I read this a ton, and never has it made a lick of sense to me. What is meant by it? The player isn't weaker than you. This is what my climbing example was meant to illustrate. Someone beating you, by definition, cannot be worse than you (at least if we look at average performances to avoid volatility/"luck"). The player beating you IS the better PvTer. The skinny cyclist that beats "fitter" fatty to the top of the hill IS the better climber. On December 12 2014 16:56 JieXian wrote: it doesn't matter if i switch or not, my problem still remains with the game. and if i choose the easy way, then i'm weak. if i choose the hard, then i'm stupid, lolIf you "feel" P is easier, why don't you switch? If you "feel" T is harder and you picked it knowing it is harder and being aware of the challenges, why complain? On December 12 2014 19:14 ICanFlyLow wrote: where did i say that practice doesnt make a difference? i wrote that "by a feasible (and somewhat equal) amount of practice". please read what i write. and those top 4 players just prove my point, because they got superior while other progamers, practicing the same amount never did. please also understand what i write.There is talent involved but just because talent is involved, you cant say that practice doesnt make difference. Typically the best players in the proffesional korean scene were those who had been around for quite some time. The ones people considered to be top 4 (Bisu, Stork, Jaedong, Flash) started their careers around 2005 and their skill usually peaked 2-3 years after, same with savior and these people played 10+ hour a day. And when you say you cant get higher then C, thats just not true. Im sure there is plenty of stuff you can learn and become a much better player. and believe me, its true. i cannot get much better/higher without an unrealistic amount of practice. (mass BBS doesn't count) On December 13 2014 00:06 hariooo wrote: no. stupid decisions about making the game too easy and different killed it. i don't want what they did in sc2, i don't want the game to be easier, i just talk about certain balance problems. and i don't attribute my personal lack of skills to these. i try to think objectively about the things i see in games.Balancing for C to D level players is what killed SC2. Eugh. Balancing the game for all skill levels should not be a priority for any competitive game. Whiny players will never be satisfied with the game because any lack of personal skill will be attributed to the game not being balanced. On December 13 2014 04:12 TaShadan wrote: wow. C people have brains too, ok?Wow a guy with C skills whining about balance? Priceless! | ||
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Mirabel_
United States1768 Posts
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic611 Posts
On December 15 2014 03:59 Mirabel_ wrote: I think PvT is definitely harder than TvP past a certain level. I don't think anyone in the community will reach that level again, though. actually there are a lot of GOOD Foreigners Protoss players out there. but not at the level of Bisu and so on. | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1965 Posts
wow. C people have brains too, ok? Sure C people have brains. Insects have a brains too. I am really sad that someone like you was part of my favourite late era top broodwar clan sas. User was warned for this post | ||
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
Props to you for playing terran and not taking the easier route by playing P because of the problems in tvp you are experiencing. Its okay to become frustrated and you are right - the game is not perfectly balanced on every skill level (how could it ever be?). I think we could agree that its less difficult to reach C with Protoss than its with Terran. Not that its easy for anybody. And remember it becomes harder for Protoss at B so Protoss is not the 'easy' race. Because that is kinda racist  Lets just agree that in terms of SC being a competitive esport, that its pretty fucking nice that on the top level the game is as balanced as it is. Terran is demanding. But terran is also a really cool race with a lot of depth and strategies. And i think you, zimp, play terran because you like that depth and also the challenge of playing a race that is comparatively harder than protoss at C level. But that does not mean that you also dont want to win and hence the frustration. I dont think you are whiner and keep playing terran because that is awsome! Have fun! | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On December 15 2014 07:08 tanngard wrote: I just wanted to say to zimp: Props to you for playing terran and not taking the easier route by playing P because of the problems in tvp you are experiencing. Its okay to become frustrated and you are right - the game is not perfectly balanced on every skill level (how could it ever be?). I think we could agree that its less difficult to reach C with Protoss than its with Terran. Not that its easy for anybody. And remember it becomes harder for Protoss at B so Protoss is not the 'easy' race. Because that is kinda racist Lets just agree that in terms of SC being a competitive esport, that its pretty fucking nice that on the top level the game is as balanced as it is. Terran is demanding. But terran is also a really cool race with a lot of depth and strategies. And i think you, zimp, play terran because you like that depth and also the challenge of playing a race that is comparatively harder than protoss at C level. But that does not mean that you also dont want to win and hence the frustration. I dont think you are whiner and keep playing terran because that is awsome! Have fun! No, we can not all agree. I don't think it to be true, that Protoss is easier than terran or zerg at C level. To me, PvT is easier than TvP but TvZ is easier than PvZ. that evens it out, i feel. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
Dropships shouldn't be a gimmick that destroy all probes if the Protoss is out of position, but completely worthless if he is ready. Same with storm drops, mutalisks, and, yes, recalls. I don't think that's fair. Crossing your fingers and hoping he's out of position is not what a good player does. A good player is thinking about the opponent's concentration, how to misdirect it, and then reap the reward. Very simple concepts like storm drop when you make an attack, scan before you drop, hide your tech and clear a path with your main army as part of your drop plan... A simple fake to make the opponent's army move where you want it to move. Tactics like these stop it from being a gimmick. That gif of the arbiter getting emp'd really looks egregious. I don't know if that happens every time, if the recall animation takes a second to show or what. I don't think recall turns into a gimmick if you don't make terran emp the arb 3 seconds in advance of when it recalls. I don't know about for statis and storm vs emp, because tank vulture can't really be beat consistently with zealot dragoon alone (although you can try with shuttle bombs). While we're on the topic tho, it sucks pretty hard that broodling doesn't work if the queen dies before the broodling hits lol. But maybe that too would make queens too strong  It's an interesting discussion how these little idiosyncrasies in Brood War affect balance. I would say that the list is mammoth and that 99% of the time it doesn't really decide the game especially when both players are aware. Like burrowing a lurker under a building seems pretty unfair, but how often does it come up? Protoss players lose lots of goons if they don't babysit them more than other units, vessels need more babysitting too to be really effective vs protoss. Things kinda even out, and part of what makes good players good is how they can spare the concentration for it even when a million things are going on. Also scourge are the dumbest units in the game, but their dumb ai is one of the really abusable things in BW that can make exciting moments, and their dumb ai can be overcome a little.BW is a weird combination of being interesting in part because of its faults, and in part in spite of them It's very much a perspective and context thing which fault is in which category. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On December 15 2014 07:48 Chef wrote: I don't think that's fair. Crossing your fingers and hoping he's out of position is not what a good player does. A good player is thinking about the opponent's concentration, how to misdirect it, and then reap the reward. Very simple concepts like storm drop when you make an attack, scan before you drop, hide your tech and clear a path with your main army as part of your drop plan... A simple fake to make the opponent's army move where you want it to move. Tactics like these stop it from being a gimmick. That gif of the arbiter getting emp'd really looks egregious. I don't know if that happens every time, if the recall animation takes a second to show or what. I don't think recall turns into a gimmick if you don't make terran emp the arb 3 seconds in advance of when it recalls. I don't know about for statis and storm vs emp, because tank vulture can't really be beat consistently with zealot dragoon alone (although you can try with shuttle bombs). While we're on the topic tho, it sucks pretty hard that broodling doesn't work if the queen dies before the broodling hits lol. But maybe that too would make queens too strong It's an interesting discussion how these little idiosyncrasies in Brood War affect balance. I would say that the list is mammoth and that 99% of the time it doesn't really decide the game especially when both players are aware. Like burrowing a lurker under a building seems pretty unfair, but how often does it come up? Protoss players lose lots of goons if they don't babysit them more than other units, vessels need more babysitting too to be really effective vs protoss. Things kinda even out, and part of what makes good players good is how they can spare the concentration for it even when a million things are going on. Also scourge are the dumbest units in the game, but their dumb ai is one of the really abusable things in BW that can make exciting moments, and their dumb ai can be overcome a little.BW is a weird combination of being interesting in part because of its faults, and in part in spite of them It's very much a perspective and context thing which fault is in which category.that's an very interesting position your bringing in! nice read | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
not us | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 17 2014 00:48 Boonbag wrote: only person allowed to reformulate BW in any way is god not us So, you mean Flash? | ||
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mauwee
Vatican City State78 Posts
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Starecat
934 Posts
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Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
On January 17 2015 00:34 Starecat wrote: Cant' watch the video... Why? because http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/429855-recommended-snipealot-games?page=60#1182 I put it as unlisted for you should be able to watch it through the link now. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On January 17 2015 00:34 Starecat wrote: Cant' watch the video... Why? Bisu wants his vods off of youtube because he is going to upload his vods himself. | ||
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On January 17 2015 01:07 c3rberUs wrote: Bisu wants his vods off of youtube because he is going to upload his vods himself. Greedy Bisu is Greedy I'm glad progamers are taking some awereness of their economical value. Specially Bisu, his play is just different to everyone else, specially p v z. For example, I've seen him lately stack 2 observers and jam them into the terrans base to scout properly and counter the standard turret ring. While pretty simple play, Bisu keeps coming up with new stuff. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
Honestly my PvZ is probably better than my PvT since its so easy to scout zerg and harder to die to cheeses. | ||
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TheGreatOne
United States534 Posts
On December 10 2014 11:28 BisuDagger wrote: This was the series Bisu played mouse only. I remember this well! Did he really play with just his hands? He has every other top terran figured out. He also struggled against flash though. Shuttle seems to have sea's number though, according to stats, which doesn't make sense since bisu > shuttle. | ||
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