EPTCanata vs July @ Arcadia
http://senseofstar.blogspot.com/
new post ~Gosu~ in case anyone missed it.
Analysis of Canata's Control
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
Canata vs July @ Arcadia http://senseofstar.blogspot.com/ new post ~Gosu~ in case anyone missed it. | ||
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PanoRaMa
United States5069 Posts
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SCNewb
Canada2210 Posts
It was an excellent read......the writer did an awesome analysis....simply amazing =O | ||
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TreK
Sweden2089 Posts
with reflex moves i meant, not something he has specifically practised for but something that just will happen automatically ... just like a reflex save by a soccer keeper, all in my opinion ofcourse. very nice vs the muttas to be able to aim them out one by one tho, seems very effective the games ive seen it | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
but great read nonetheless. | ||
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DaZe
Sweden2111 Posts
on some lvl of smartness he must know what he is doing but mostly its just a feeling how he moves his units. you can pick any rep or vod with progamers and try to analyze every attack and you will find things they themselves didnt even think off before you said it ;o (ok maybe that was far-fetched but you get the point ;O) | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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Refrain[FriZ]
Canada4337 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
And tops it up w/ video in the end, very nice. Awesome blog. | ||
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Zeto
United States2290 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Watch Proleague games like vs Luxury etc. Even in games he loses, Canata has a lot of interesting things he does. vs Pusan, his tank formation was cool. vs Luxury, his port and map control was nice. etc etc.. then there were his OSL games T.T | ||
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BlackJack
United States10471 Posts
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DarK]N[exuS
China1441 Posts
On November 26 2006 00:17 BlackJack wrote: so much analysis for something so trivial? I don't think winning a fight like Canata won was trivial, and anyways at the pro level nothing is trivial. TT | ||
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useLess
United States4781 Posts
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
Very nice, though. That blog is really quite interesting. | ||
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WhatisProtoss
Korea (South)2325 Posts
On November 25 2006 21:01 TreK[cF] wrote: Was all reflex moves imo, every terran that has played 10 000 tvz will automatically not have his marines in a big fucking group when they are attempted to get surrounded, doubt it was something he planned in his head when julyzerg went for the attack... it was just something he saw was needed to be done to not loose all his marines in 3 spines, if that was what you/the writer meant.I didnt really see his tanks specifically aim either, maybe they did tho. with reflex moves i meant, not something he has specifically practised for but something that just will happen automatically ... just like a reflex save by a soccer keeper, all in my opinion ofcourse. very nice vs the muttas to be able to aim them out one by one tho, seems very effective the games ive seen it I completely agree. When you're microing marines against lurkers and zerglings, there's no way you will aim the fire of your tanks; I guarantee it. Canata's marine movement is not different from the other progamers, nor does he move them the way that writer said he does. He doesn't move them right after the lurkers burrow.... As all theorycraft is, I believe that it's too much thought vs. the actual playing. The players do not think about such things, as time delay between the Lurker burrow and initial attack. You can see that, despite what the writer says, Canata does not show the same movement in the first only-marine clip as opposed to the second battle, where July runs his entire army into Canata's sieged tanks. Canata moves his marines a split second BEFORE the lurkers burrow. What, was he getting impatient instead of waiting until the lurkers burrowed? Or was he getting scared by the frog-hopping lurkers? Good analysis, but it's trying to analyze Canata too much and tries to stereotype his marine movement as being different or "unique." Not the case. | ||
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sCV
Jamaica246 Posts
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
I would rather argue they are a myriad of motor, photo-cortical complex reflexes, all the product of many years of training and each guided by semi-conscious decision that a are triggered by higher more conscious decisions. The mind is a wonderful thing and these so called "reflexes" do not come out of no where, but years of training and a sharp mind. In the National Geographic pro-gaming documentary they even mention this from a neurophysiology point of view: how extra areas of the brain light up in a functional PET scan of the mind of a pro-gamers gaming when compared to regular gamers. A simple example being someone who types at 150 words per minute, he thinks the words, and the rest are almost just reflexes, i.e a series of complex reflexes. Except in the case of pro-gamer these complex reflexes involve not only motor reflexes but also photo-cortical reflexes and a subconscious tactical decision tree, all under a hierarchy of conscious decision making! And thus some one who saw and realized this, analyzed it step by step, in awe and admiration. Behold he says, the sense of star, behold the pro-gamers mind. Mere reflexes? I see a very astute writer who is far more clever than most his readers. | ||
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WhatisProtoss
Korea (South)2325 Posts
On November 26 2006 02:27 Physician wrote: Mere reflexes? I would rather argue they are a myriad of motor, photo-cortical complex reflexes, all the product of many years of training and each guided by semi-conscious decision that a are triggered by higher more conscious decisions. The mind is a wonderful thing and these so called "reflexes" do not come out of no where, but years of training and a sharp mind. In the National Geographic pro-gaming documentary they even mention this from a neurophysiology point of view: how extra areas of the brain light up in a functional PET scan of the mind of a pro-gamers gaming when compared to regular gamers. A simple example being someone who types at 150 words per minute, he thinks the words, and they rest are almost just reflexes. Except in the case of pro-gamer these complex reflexes involve not only motor reflexes but also photo-cortical reflexes and a subconscious tactical decision tree, all under a hierarchy of conscious decision making! And thus some one who saw and realized this, analyzed it step by step, in awe and admiration. Behold he says, the sense of star, behold the pro-gamers mind. Mere reflexes? I see a very astute writer who is far more clever than most his readers. Hmmm.... I see many problems with what you are saying. I believe you do not know what reflexes are. There are such things as "conditioned" reflexes: a reaction in response to something learned through experience. That definitely is what the progamers have. As for "photo-cortical" reflexes, I know such things do not exist. There is no such thing. You can't just throw together a bunch of Latin words and slap it onto "reflexes." How did you come up with that name? Motor reflexes exist, as you mentioned. However... a subconscious tactical decision tree, all under a hierarchy of conscious decision making What is this? So, what you're saying is.... an ordered list of subconscious tactical decisions is directly related to an ordered list of conscious decisions? So, that's saying the same thing, thus: conscious = subconscious?? Is that not an oxymoron? I would like to point out that you should not believe everything that a simple video from National Geographic says. Knowledge is most satisfying when you feed yourself, not when somebody feeds you. Between an amateur gamer and a progamer, the difference, as you said, is significant. But, the amount of brain activity is NOT different. The difference is only in the area of activity. Progamers rely on past experience, while amateurs rely more on their visual processing. Experience and skill does not mean that you are utilizing more of your brain, or using this "photo-cortical reflex." This writer is skilled, yes. He has a good grasp on Starcraft theory. But as all "theorycraft" goes, it does not win over true experience. The readers here are experienced and can make constructive criticism on this writer's thoughts. He should not be able to write without the readers voicing their own opinion (which is not less valuable in ANY way). | ||
Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
The first one. Perhaps he did aim at the mutalisks, but I rather think he simply had attacked the mutalisks first because they were infront. And they seemed like already damaged mutalisks, which made them die pretty easily. The running from lurkers that followed is pretty obvious to any gamer. The "timing" I don't think was intentional. The second game, splitting tank position. Yes he did do that on purpose I agree, but I see many players do that now. As for position picking, I don't think he saw that and purposely aimed for it. I rather think he scanned and saw where the zerg's force was, and just put himself in battle-ready position. And moving marines vs lurkers.... also obvious. In situations like these, when he has 6-7 tanks, the terran obviously does not stay in one spot or move back. They move them around a little to minimize damage, but the tanks will killl them all within the next 2 seconds. The "timing" again, I don't think is intentional (nor do I think was anything special).... it all seemed like normal regular battles. Non-theless, good read. Very nice photos. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
1. Canata always secures a favorable position and maximizes the strength of a two-factory build. 2. Though he is surrounded by lurkers, he uses the attack delay of the lurkers to spread out his units and minimize their damage. 3. He continuously reinforces his lines to compensate his losses in battle." EVERY progamer terran, every decent tvz terran knows and does this. Canata just does it better. He usually doesn't even two fact in most games. And also, people do manually aim their tanks in tvz, whether it be at lurkers or more often, at defilers. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
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racebannon
Canada1225 Posts
And in that particular game July's muta harrass wasn't very effective if I recall and he got a very late hive. Canata played smart but not any different than any other good tvz players. It would have been an alright article if it was about tvz tactics and not trying to explain how Canata is somehow a prodigy for playing tvz in the same way every other pro T does or aspires to do. | ||
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In)Spire
United States1323 Posts
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
"How did you come up with that name?" Neurophysiology seems to be a bit out of your league, like they say, the fish dies by his mouth.. could not find it with google? Try visual reflex pathways or cortical visual reflexes or cortical visual pathways. But to answer your question: because I studied and did research for 2 year on human neurophysiology; plus I taught physiology to med students for 3 years. "Knowledge is most satisfying when you feed yourself, not when somebody feeds you." Indeed, very good advice, go learn. I did appreciate your first comment, "not so much" (add Borat accent) your second. If your interested I will explain what my not so cryptic "a subconscious tactical decision tree, all under a hierarchy of conscious decision making" means.. but go read a little before as it will save me a lot of time. Problem is today people often take opposing opinions as direct personal grievances. My fault really. I should have known better than to claim that most the readers are less clever than the writer. I apologize if you felt included and I apologize for the comment. | ||
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Doctorasul
Romania1145 Posts
I too feel the points the article addressed could have been dealt with with less emphasis on the uniqueness of Canata (or an energetic attempt to prove there is one) but I doubt I could have done a better job overall and no one can deny that the illustrations and explanations were very clear, although at times erroneous or at least stretching the truth. Thanks for sharing. | ||
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WhatisProtoss
Korea (South)2325 Posts
Problem is today people often take opposing opinions as direct personal grievances. My fault really. I should have known better than to claim that most the readers are less clever than the writer. I apologize if you felt included and I apologize for the comment. I haven't taken any personal harm from this.... no worries. I just don't like it when people make statements that they obviously don't understand. You should talk in a more simple manner, because it seems that you don't even understand your own confusing talk. On November 26 2006 11:50 Physician wrote: "How did you come up with that name?" Neurophysiology seems to be a bit out of your league, like they say, the fish dies by his mouth.. could not find it with google? Try visual reflex pathways or cortical visual reflexes or cortical visual pathways. But to answer your question: because I studied and did research for 2 year on human neurophysiology; plus I taught physiology to med students for 3 years. Sure, I have a strong grasp on Latin. I can put those definitions together and form an idea of what your "cortical visual reflexes" mean. But that doesn't mean it truly exists. I don't care if you claim that you've taught medical students for a few years. Even if it were true, that doesn't mean you're a reliable source for knowledge, as there are 2-3 year instructor commissions for students/instructors who cannot get a stable teaching job at any university and need to test the waters. "Fish dies by his mouth." Is that a metaphor for: a person loses by opening his mouth? But what makes YOU exempt from being the fish, Sir? All I see you doing is siding with this SenseofStar writer zealously, without actually looking at it and understanding if it actually is true or not. There are plenty of people on this site with more SC knowledge than you. Why have you not questioned it? Blindly following what somebody says is not right. "Walk across the stone bridge you made, even after you have tested it." Even if you DID know about neurophysiology more than the rest of us, that doesn't qualify you to make decisions for us on the game of Starcraft. I believe that knowing neurophysiology doesn't make you a better Starcraft player in any way. Nor does it make you analyze a player's actions during a game better. So, EVEN IF your neurophysiology qualifications were true, that doesn't give you the authority to stamp out other's opinions on this thread. I merely pointed out that this writer was not completely correct, as are most theorycraft writers. "Knowledge is most satisfying when you feed yourself, not when somebody feeds you." Indeed, very good advice, go learn. I did appreciate your first comment, "not so much" (add Borat accent) your second. If your interested I will explain what my not so cryptic "a subconscious tactical decision tree, all under a hierarchy of conscious decision making" means.. but go read a little before as it will save me a lot of time. Who the hell is Borat? What kind of insert is that supposed to be? It's okay. I know English quite well, thank you. And I see all that as a confusing mass of words that amounts to no meaning at all. If you read my last post, you would see that in the end, it just amounts to unconscious equaling the conscious. BOTTOM LINE: I'm saying that this writer has good thoughts, indeed. But not the correct thoughts. It's an overanalysis. Just like some students lose points on a theoretical math exam for writing MORE than they need to... this is the same case. He overanalyzed Canata's movement and tried to distinguish it from other Terran progamers. Interesting, I admit, but ultimately incorrect in some senses. | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
My comment was a mild criticism attributing it all to a mere reflex, I spoke little to nothing about what the article mention, just that it was gosu, and that it was, a lot of work went into it for our benefit. Who is making any StarCraft decisions for you (or everyone since you used 'us')? Who questioned your English or your opinion of the article? You did not even mention reflexes in your initial post. You invent motives and thoughts to attribute them as my own, and then starting to argue against them i.e you arguing with yourself. I just gave my opinion of why it is all just a little more than just mere reflexes and why that article was very nice. I spoke of what I know even, and I am too old to argue for the sake of arguing, as it bores me to no end, so I apologize again, feel free to keep doing so, without me. I rather prefer to enjoy your translations. #WhatisProtoss "Who the hell is Borat? What kind of insert is that supposed to be?" Sorry, can't help you there. Check out the General Forum a little more often and you may discover the wonders of Borat, or google it. Tons of it at YouTube. Art stuff. | ||
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CoralReefer
Canada2069 Posts
we all want to find something mystical about brood war, but in reality this is just standard tvz control | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Canata's control style used in that game is basically "the norm." Canata is better at it than many other gamers are, but it's still pretty standard. NaDa, Boxer and Casy (other gamers mentioned in the article) have atypical unit control that relies on superior precision and/or speed. So in terms of the conclusions of the article: 1. Canata always secures a favorable position and maximizes the strength of a two-factory build. 2. Though he is surrounded by lurkers, he uses the attack delay of the lurkers to spread out his units and minimize their damage. 3. He continuously reinforces his lines to compensate his losses in battle. 1.) Every player develops their own favorite positions and every player with good game sense will use choke points effectively (note: I'm using "choke point" in a boad strategical sense, which is not limited to the main entrance of your base). This is not so much a conscious effort as it is a reflex ingrained by training. 2.) I do not know a single reasonably skilled player that does not do this. Yes it is true that sometimes players make mistakes (and Canata is better than most about playing perfectly), but no player who doesn't do this deserves mentioning. 3.) This is trickier than the other two to pull off in games, but the very top gamers all at least try to do this, or if they don't reinforce their main army, they simultaneously harrass with a small force elsewhere, often brought to that location by one or more dropships. It's a good article, but there's nothing revolutionary in there. Yes, Canata is a good example of this since his play is fairly perfect, but he employs a very standard style of unit control, and everything he is doing is ingrained as a reflex. As I said earlier, players like Boxer, Casy and NaDa have very unique unit control, and they often trust their micro to usch an extent that they will enter battles that a player like me would consider suicidal, yet somehow those guys can very often pull it off. | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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TreK
Sweden2089 Posts
"Mere reflexes? I would rather argue they are a myriad of motor, photo-cortical complex reflexes, all the product of many years of training and each guided by semi-conscious decision that a are triggered by higher more conscious decisions" How can you overanalyse a such a simple word called reflexes into this ?  Canta did alot of micro in that middlefight, and like most good gamers he had to make alot of decisions based on how the fight evolved, when the lurkers finally burrowed he had to move his marines somehwere and the position he chose was run 2-3 marines behind the lurks and 2-3 marines slightly below the lurkers...it was a reflex move imo ( a move where he didnt have time think twice ) or a "semi-conscious decision that a are triggered by higher more conscious decisions" that you called it. What would be the difference then from a reflex move and from what he did just now if you wanted to call it "a semi-conscious decision that a are triggered by higher more conscious decisions" ? I hope you understand that i was talking about the reflex that you will get from training ALOT making you able to do things without havving to think how to do them and if you have time to do them, and not about normal reflexes such as when gagging when something puts a stick down your throat or ducking when someone throws something at you :p I think we can all agree that canata did some highskill-moves here that a just good player wont be able to manouver just cause in an intense fight there simply isnt enough time to think about the situation for a normal player, experience and/or reflex moves will win you the game ... play hard go pro ;p | ||
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racebannon
Canada1225 Posts
That or grammar is next to brain surgery | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
good find. | ||
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TreK
Sweden2089 Posts
So if you want to learn every fight you have to experience different fights again and again ;p | ||
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DarK]N[exuS
China1441 Posts
On November 26 2006 12:51 WhatisProtoss wrote: I haven't taken any personal harm from this.... no worries. I just don't like it when people make statements that they obviously don't understand. You should talk in a more simple manner, because it seems that you don't even understand your own confusing talk. Sure, I have a strong grasp on Latin. I can put those definitions together and form an idea of what your "cortical visual reflexes" mean. But that doesn't mean it truly exists. I don't care if you claim that you've taught medical students for a few years. Even if it were true, that doesn't mean you're a reliable source for knowledge, as there are 2-3 year instructor commissions for students/instructors who cannot get a stable teaching job at any university and need to test the waters. "Fish dies by his mouth." Is that a metaphor for: a person loses by opening his mouth? But what makes YOU exempt from being the fish, Sir? All I see you doing is siding with this SenseofStar writer zealously, without actually looking at it and understanding if it actually is true or not. There are plenty of people on this site with more SC knowledge than you. Why have you not questioned it? Blindly following what somebody says is not right. "Walk across the stone bridge you made, even after you have tested it." Even if you DID know about neurophysiology more than the rest of us, that doesn't qualify you to make decisions for us on the game of Starcraft. I believe that knowing neurophysiology doesn't make you a better Starcraft player in any way. Nor does it make you analyze a player's actions during a game better. So, EVEN IF your neurophysiology qualifications were true, that doesn't give you the authority to stamp out other's opinions on this thread. I merely pointed out that this writer was not completely correct, as are most theorycraft writers. Who the hell is Borat? What kind of insert is that supposed to be? It's okay. I know English quite well, thank you. And I see all that as a confusing mass of words that amounts to no meaning at all. If you read my last post, you would see that in the end, it just amounts to unconscious equaling the conscious. BOTTOM LINE: I'm saying that this writer has good thoughts, indeed. But not the correct thoughts. It's an overanalysis. Just like some students lose points on a theoretical math exam for writing MORE than they need to... this is the same case. He overanalyzed Canata's movement and tried to distinguish it from other Terran progamers. Interesting, I admit, but ultimately incorrect in some senses. Whatisprotoss, shut the hell up. You're ignorant and you definitely come off that way. At this point you're just trying to salvage your attempts to insult Physician. Just admit defeat. Worst debate skills I've ever seen, trying to shift focus from his neurophysiology credentials being why he is able to label various things to how it somehow becomes his vanity in SC. That might work with morons but anyone can see you are bringing in shitty nonsequiters to support your being an ass to a great forum member. Stop taking the writings of someone (senseofstar guy) as a personal insult; you act like he attacked you in your analysis. Jesus christ. If you're such an intellectual then you'd realize it's not your place to condemn someone's musings/opinions as "ultimately incorrect." Anyone who's taken an entry level philosophy class or even read something past fucking goosebumps should have some knowledge of that concept. Additionally, if you actually knew shit about the medical profession and weren't basing your insults off of your knowledge of Latin, then you'd realize that people combine words that aren't "in the dictionary" to describe things that have characteristics of more than one type. This is common in daily speech, anywhere, not just the medical profession. It's just more common because you have so many "things" that you might want to combine. Sure photocortical may not be a word, but unless you're being a facetious asshole (check!) and trying to argue, you can easily figure out what it means. As to how physician can "overcomplicate" things, try reading any medical school text. | ||
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TreK
Sweden2089 Posts
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WhatisProtoss
Korea (South)2325 Posts
At least Physician has the intellect to offer better conversation. | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
I showed my 13 year old daughter this thread out pure curiosity for her opinion, I wanted to get her perspective from her age group.. . she read it diligently from top to bottom.. then she stood up and started leaving.. I asked well? what did you think of it? She said smiling "blah blah argue argue you are all retarded" (me included) and left.. LoL maybe she is right or maybe she has a few of my genes but it made me laugh a lot.. still you have to love tl.net verborragic* debates.. *+ Show Spoiler + questionable word in English | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
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WhatisProtoss
Korea (South)2325 Posts
On November 26 2006 18:48 Physician wrote: truth be said.. I am not inventing this.. I showed my 13 year old daughter this thread out pure curiosity for her opinion, I wanted to get her perspective from her age group.. . she read it diligently from top to bottom.. then she stood up and started leaving.. I asked well? what did you think of it? She said smiling "blah blah argue argue you are all retarded" (me included) and left.. LoL maybe she is right or maybe she has a few of my genes but it made me laugh a lot.. still you have to love tl.net verborragic* debates.. *+ Show Spoiler + questionable word in English Whoa, your daughter is 13? That's almost as old as most the people on here. I should have been more respectful. | ||
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TreK
Sweden2089 Posts
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SteelString
446 Posts
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.blizzcon.com/images/screenshots/ss218.jpg) (at Blizzcon, a year ago) | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
Yellow. | ||
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Gokey
United States2722 Posts
(btw, is that you on the right, Physician?) | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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WhizKid77
China682 Posts
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Vo-
United States435 Posts
Yellow is pure sex. Close thread. | ||
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TreK
Sweden2089 Posts
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TreK
Sweden2089 Posts
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
On November 26 2006 18:48 Physician wrote: truth be said.. I am not inventing this.. I showed my 13 year old daughter this thread out pure curiosity for her opinion, I wanted to get her perspective from her age group.. . she read it diligently from top to bottom.. then she stood up and started leaving.. I asked well? what did you think of it? She said smiling "blah blah argue argue you are all retarded" (me included) and left.. LoL maybe she is right or maybe she has a few of my genes but it made me laugh a lot.. still you have to love tl.net verborragic* debates.. *+ Show Spoiler + questionable word in English Rofl you have a smart daughter Physician. | ||
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KovacsFlorian
204 Posts
On November 26 2006 04:21 WhatisProtoss wrote: Mere reflexes? Progamers rely on past experience, while amateurs rely more on their visual processing. That's why the pros don't watch the ongoing fight too much. They've seen it 278563287465 times before. They just go back to production buildings and make units = better macro. Experience + speed = better multitasking. | ||
alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
 I WANNA TAKE A PIC WITH YELLOW TOOo..... physician will you adopt me as your new son?!? :D | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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pyrogenetix
China5094 Posts
back on topic In Conclusion: Player JackShitProtoss 1) will attack move his army into a battle, keeping zealots up front taking huge damage and dragging mines, while leaving his dragoons behind to cleanup the damaged seige tanks. 2) will be able to reinforce his lines with more zealots and dragoons when needed, retreat when losing, and all the time keeping up his macro at base. 3) will drop high templar behind enemy mining and storm the workers, creating a drastic drop in mineral flow for his opponent. 4) uses hotkeys | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
On November 26 2006 23:20 TreK[cF] wrote: i have 3 sisters :> I WANT TO BE UR FRIEND. | ||
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
On November 27 2006 06:01 Physician wrote: #alffla u eat a lot? cause I already have 4 kids! hahah..damnit ignore pyrogenetix btw | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
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