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On September 04 2017 20:41 mishimaBeef wrote:
So the ASL lobby says custom hotkeys are enabled. Cool. But I was shocked to see people rushing to the defense of classic hotkeys. "Flash didn't change a thing and he's still dominating". Yeah Flash probably has the most deep and practiced hotkey action in the entire scene. Of course him switching would have probably the highest cost of any player.
Do you really think in 5 years the champion won't be using custom hotkey setup?
About custom hotkeys, do people really think that classic setup has advantages over custom setup? The only way you would gain by sticking with the classic setup is you want to maintain high performance without a transition period that would take time correlated to how much you have deeply practiced the old setup.
I'm quite confident that there are time gains to be had by removing hand movement required for classic setup. No matter your hand position, it's another thing to keep track of in your mind and there's more physical movement because no matter your hand position, the keys are just more spread out so there's more area to cover in the same amount of time.
I've used doxstar / keycraft since their inception as I could never get used to the standard layout (press 'p' to build a probe? cmon). That said, I think using the old layout has some significant advantages over time. I'm having lots of trouble using any control group >5. I'm just not used to my left hand wandering off further to the right than that. A player that is comfortable with the standard key layout will have no isses with that.
I wouldn't be surprised if we'll see some good players using slightly modified keys, but the top players will most definitely still play standard layout in 5 years.
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Netherlands5981 Posts
Top players could just integrate a new hotkey setup 1 key at a time and not lose tremendous skill. If they don't want to sacrifice skill, it might take a year to fully transition to their ideal setup though.
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So, I see an argument being made that classic setup has an advantage in synergizing with >5 control group. To counter that I'd say that a custom setup tailored to synergize with >5 control groups trumps the classic rigid setup on average.
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That news is like 2 weeks old man.
Also I really never understood the hole hotkey discussion, even in sc2 people made such a big deal out of it. I really don't believe it matters at all. Everyone should just use what they are most comfortable with. For some it's the standard layout, some move a few things here and there and others change every single hotkey to their liking. And i think that's just fine. If there were one definitive hotkey setup that was far superior to anything else, I think after 7 years of sc2 every korean would use it. Instead, last time I checked Innovation was still owning everyone while using BW hotkeys in sc2.
I really don't see why it should be any different for bw. Everyone who felt uncomfortable with any part of the default hotkeys should be happy that they get to change it, but I really don't think it'll have any impact on competitive play.
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Do you mean to say that 0 qualified players in the next 5 years of ASL will be using a custom hotkey setup and that they will be sticking to classic? I don't understand how it would have no impact on competitive play.
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I didn't mean to say that no one will use it, in fact apparently quiet a few people have changed a few keys here and there already. I am saying that it won't affect any results. You won't magically see players rise because they can build probes without moving their hand. I think it'll merely make the game more enjoyable for those who had an issue with the default setup.
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I agree with you Lorch. I have never understood the people saying it's going to effect the levels of play at all.
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It is going to effect the levels of play... as evidenced by people making the switch. The point people are pushing is that old winners will be the new winners.
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That is like saying that the new graphics will affect the levels of play, as evidence by people using it instead of the old graphics.
Yes it has an effect, but it seems fairly unlikely that that effect is substantial. At the end of the day you still need just as many actions to do the things you wanna do, for it be have a real effect you would need to believe that switching "building probes" from p to e will give you the extra apm to do other things you wouldn't have done before.
Then this thing you now can do would have to be significant enough to have a real impact on your chances to win the game.
So yeah sure some players could improve their gameplay a bit through custom hotkeys(like it is undeniable that you are a bit faster pressing some key on the left side of the keyboard instead of e.g. "p" for patrol), but it seems really far fetched to think that it would be enough to actually matter in the big picture.
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Issue with your analogy is that the new graphics aren't custom. You pick SD or HD. The custom hotkeys isn't a Classic 2, it's custom.
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That doesn't really matter, you have another option and one of them is superior to the other in theory. (different people with different priorities though).
And i am not even talking about things like resolution, it could simply be something like "unit A" is easier to identify in version B for player X. That gives you an advantage.
I mean i don't even disagree, yes it will have an effect. Simply because it is different, any difference has an effect in theory. People simply completely overvalue the impact/size of that difference though imo.
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Anyways, come now, even Nada is quoted as saying "If used well, some players may find the "perfect" and most efficient way to customize their hotkeys[like how Hearthstone players find the perfect way to build a deck], giving them an edge on the competitive scene."
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If someone finds this mysterious perfect hotkey setup then everybody will use it (just as everybody uses the best decks).
The deck analogy is a bad one because there it is fairly easy to identify (in comparison) why you won the match.
Did you win the match because you can now build probes with a hotkey on the left side? That's basically impossible to say.
Someone else already mentioned it, in sc2 you can have custom hotkeys as well, there are even really sophisticated systems like "the core" and korean porgamers still sometimes use the bw hotkeys there. That seems like solid evidence that this fear is based on not that much imo. But sure the effect will be > 0 simply because it's a change.
Also NaDa saying something (i will just take your word for it) doesn't make it true automatically.
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On September 05 2017 10:39 mishimaBeef wrote:
Anyways, come now, even Nada is quoted as saying "If used well, some players may find the "perfect" and most efficient way to customize their hotkeys[like how Hearthstone players find the perfect way to build a deck], giving them an edge on the competitive scene."
"...if they aren't busy playing PUBG.
*shifty eyes*"
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Well you are assuming he means perfect for everyone and not perfect for the individual.
Also isn't Nada the example people go to for genius player? I recall watching Flash talking about his genius.
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Netherlands5981 Posts
As I understand HD comes 16;9 which gives you more vision, while SD only gives you 4:3
Sure you're not suddenly going to be able to compete with ex-pros who were intensively trained in progamerhouses for years, but custom hotkeys can definitely give your gameplay a tiny advantage, just like more vision can. If you're competing for money you're stupid to not try and make use of whatever advantage you can 'exploit'. If I were a pro I'd be using HD and custom hotkeys.
Regarding English vs custom hotkeys for progamers, have this analogy: If you can teach a monkey to play Rachmaninoff flawlessly, it can't be too hard to teach this same monkey to play Tiersen flawlessly... I'll leave it to you what will be easier to execute. + Show Spoiler +If you can play BW at a professional level you'll be smart enough to come up with your own Tiersen composition custom hotkey setup that's way more ergonomic than the English one.
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Those opposing hotkey changes why don't you change scv and drone to P to level the playing field?
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Kau
Canada3502 Posts
As a Zerg, I can just press 's' and 'd' to make 3 drones for every 2 key presses, which gives me an apm advantage over Protoss, so I am okay with them changing probe to 's' because they still need 3 key presses to build 3 probes.
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I think the ghost matches being recorded and displayed on the ranking page (and not profile) are the reason why the MMR is also changing for unknown reason outside of playing games T_T I just cant make a normal progression since there are a lot of ghost games that keep getting recorded and pulling MMR down, almost one ghost game for a game played, its annoying me now and affecting ladder experience quite a bit => I play less
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EPT
