EPTBW General Discussion - Page 180
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EndingLife
United States1605 Posts
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Highgamer
1475 Posts
I think some of the footnotes on that build are wrong though. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany914 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
New video about the balance debate (Terran OP). Seems to me pros are mostly having fun with this, if anything | ||
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
On May 04 2017 06:19 ortseam wrote: <snip> New video about the balance debate (Terran OP). Seems to me pros are mostly having fun with this, if anything Tried to skip past the "hi this is x" intro. 1 minute in and the guy was still complaining about Reddit being stupid. Fucking hell. | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
On May 04 2017 06:40 Aylear wrote: Tried to skip past the "hi this is x" intro. 1 minute in and the guy was still complaining about Reddit being stupid. Fucking hell. Yeah, I just watched that for the translations, what he says I just filter out :D | ||
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
 And this probably isn't the place, but are there any Zergs out there willing to play with a noobie Protoss? I feel like my PvT is getting better, but I'm so incredibly lost in PvZ it's not even funny. My name is SonicAlarm on USWest on the PTR, or whatever it is these days. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
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Symeon
17 Posts
And also we'll see whether it's Terran that is OP for it's just Flash being Flash. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On May 04 2017 10:33 Essbee wrote: I never understood all this talk about balance. If balance with terrans was such a big issue, why couldn't they just use maps that are bad for terrans during the tournaments? I always figured that the tournament runners liked having Terran winners since it was the most popular race for casual fans. Especially when Boxer was still playing competitively, but even now... like the new map, Camelot, they must have put that in knowing that it's a Terran map. | ||
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Phyanketto
United States611 Posts
On May 04 2017 11:37 Luddite wrote: I always figured that the tournament runners liked having Terran winners since it was the most popular race for casual fans. Especially when Boxer was still playing competitively, but even now... like the new map, Camelot, they must have put that in knowing that it's a Terran map. This is true, but consider how bad outsider is for terrans, CB is good for TvZ but atrocious for TvP. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On May 04 2017 11:52 Phyanketto wrote: This is true, but consider how bad outsider is for terrans, CB is good for TvZ but atrocious for TvP. They should definitely use more of those maps and then the talks about Terran being op would stop. I also always thought Terran had the best players for individual leagues, they seem to have the ones who are the best at preparing themselves for BoX. In team leagues, I always felt like Protoss have always been very strong (being able to choose the map to play on helps). I think sc1 is perfectly balanced and all of this is ridiculous to me. There are multiple ways each race can abuse their own OP units and the unfair parts of certain maps vs other races. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1534 Posts
Like the point about SCVs being OP because of having more HP (despite also lacking inherent regeneration ; repairing them is impractical at best – too slow to really outregenerate any damage and only taking away more mining time – and medics are not even usually present in Pvt or early ZvT) Anyway, this brings me to the thing I really wanted to set straight (because I hear Tastosis getting it wrong, among lots of other game-mechanic related things, time and time again!): No, SCVs do not accelerate slower than the other workers. All workers are in fact exactly the same in terms of speed, acceleration and collision box size. What differentiates the workers are the following points: - SCVs have an attack range of 0 whereas the other workers have a range of 1 - SCVs have a faster attack rate (lower attack cooldown) - Drones have an instant attack animation whereas Probes have their slightly slower mining animation double as an attack (as do SCVs). Together these explain how Drones can perfectly attack move Probes, how Probes can out-harrass SCVs and how SCVs are just better at straight-up fighting. Additionally: - CCs, Nexus (the correct plural for Nexus is not Nexi, it is Latin u-declination!) and Hatches all have different collision box sizes (as do Extractors, Refineries and Assimilators) this can in practice lead to different ac-/deceleration behaviour for mining workers. However, this solely depends on the kind of mining buildings, not the type of workers employed (an SCV mining from an Assimilator and returning its load to a Nexus is behaving exactly as if it were a Probe!) | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11892 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1534 Posts
On May 04 2017 22:33 Glioburd wrote: Interesting. So what's the best choice the next time I'll mind control a drone or a scv, is it better to build a refinery, an extractor, or an assimilator ? :D Extractor should usually be the best choice, as it covers the full size of the Geyser, whereas Assimilators are most of the time worst (Assimilators are a lot narrower than the geyser, which is what makes Troy gates work ; geysers in side positions, especially left-hand-side positions, usually mine measurably slower for Protoss [~265 vs 280 gas per minute mining rate for optimal right hand side positions on 3 workers ]). There are exceptions. however. On a left-offest bottom position geyser (like CB top right nat), the narrower Assimilator actually means workers will respawn less offset from the resource depot, thus, improving mining rates. For minerals things are not always straight forward either. In theory a CC has the biggest collision box of all resource depots, but workers around a CC do not necessarily mine faster. That is because workers do begin their deceleration phases at different points, some just bump into a building and go right back without noticeably breaking, others slowly decelerate over a longer distance before turning and reaccelerating again. The latter, for some reason, seems more prone to happen around CCs. | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On May 04 2017 19:47 Freakling wrote: Some Terran players getting all winy if any map is not a fighting Spirit clone with super easy 3rd gas certainly helps as well ;D The things that amazes me the most about most balance discussions is how inherently flawed or circumstantial most of the arguments are. Like the point about SCVs being OP because of having more HP (despite also lacking inherent regeneration ; repairing them is impractical at best – too slow to really outregenerate any damage and only taking away more mining time – and medics are not even usually present in Pvt or early ZvT) Anyway, this brings me to the thing I really wanted to set straight (because I hear Tastosis getting it wrong, among lots of other game-mechanic related things, time and time again!): No, SCVs do not accelerate slower than the other workers. All workers are in fact exactly the same in terms of speed, acceleration and collision box size. What differentiates the workers are the following points: - SCVs have an attack range of 0 whereas the other workers have a range of 1 - SCVs have a faster attack rate (lower attack cooldown) - Drones have an instant attack animation whereas Probes have their slightly slower mining animation double as an attack (as do SCVs). Together these explain how Drones can perfectly attack move Probes, how Probes can out-harrass SCVs and how SCVs are just better at straight-up fighting. Additionally: - CCs, Nexus (the correct plural for Nexus is not Nexi, it is Latin u-declination!) and Hatches all have different collision box sizes (as do Extractors, Refineries and Assimilators) this can in practice lead to different ac-/deceleration behaviour for mining workers. However, this solely depends on the kind of mining buildings, not the type of workers employed (an SCV mining from an Assimilator and returning its load to a Nexus is behaving exactly as if it were a Probe!) I think the big confusion about acceleration is due to the fact of how the units decelerate differently, Probes and Drones, (aswell as archons and vultures) mimmick the movement of Air Units, and SCVs don't (correct me on that if I am wrong, but I'm like 80% sure). So it looks to people as if Drones or Probes are super mobile and out accelerate SCVs, but the actual reason is that they just dont desclerate fully when attacking, so ofcourse they are faster back at their max speed, that together with a larger attack range results in the better harassment. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1534 Posts
To clarify trying to attack move a worker is like this: Drone: go-spit-go-spit-go-spit-go-spit-go-spit-go-spit-go... Probe: go-slizlezlezlezle-go-slizlezlezlezle-go-slizlezlezlezle-go-slizlezlezlezle-go-slizlezlezlezle-go-slizlezlezlezle-go... SCV: go-bump unto target and stop-try to attack-hmm...target got out of nonexistent attack range-accelerate to go after target-damn, seems like target gotaway-I guess I'll stroll back to my minerals then... It's the bump into unit and stop part, due to the short attack range, that makes SCVs lose ground. | ||
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