EPTOn May 01 2017 09:59 EndingLife wrote:
Terran isan't rigged. Flash and Light are just too damn good.
Terran isan't rigged. Flash and Light are just too damn good.
Or, orrrrr it can be both ?
BW General Discussion - Page 179
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vndestiny
Singapore3457 Posts
Or, orrrrr it can be both ? | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On May 01 2017 09:59 EndingLife wrote: Terran isn't rigged. Flash and Light are just too damn good. Yeah and JD and Effort are just bad huh? | ||
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toriak
Slovakia477 Posts
Yea JD is just bad right now And Effort's current ZvT streak is like 20 : 0 (including multiple games vs FlaSh and Last) | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
it took Zero 3 years (from when he returned in 2013 until early 2016) to incorporate 1 of the 5 things i was explaining people could do in ZvT vs late mech on FS to be in a general better position in 2012. He was the first one to do it consistantly, which was getting a faster 5th base. Few months later people stopped playing FS only, so others didnt catch up. it took Bisu nearly 1 year from the VANT36.5 final until ASL2 ro16 vs Hero to do 1 of the 2 builds i told people the instant Bisu lost to the 3 hatch ling speed into 4 hatch hydra style (going for cors/reaver in game 3 made me cry in disbelief and rage at Bisu). Nearly all Protoss players blindly follow Bisus style, because Bisu is the commander of the Protoss race and his builds are law, sort of... it has been that way since Bisu returned and probably before that. A lot of Zergs place the Pool directly under the main gas in top right CB (left side pool aligns with left side geysir). Jaedong does it and i think Hero/Effort too. This Pool placements turns the geysir from being 2% worse compared to other (best) main geysir to about 6% worse. Recently, i think Effort stopped placing the Pool in that location, but when going 3 hatch Muta, he gets a 4th drone into it after some time. What all Zergs dont get is that if you use a 4th drone, you place it in the natural gas on top right CB, because this gas is 15% behind best geysir, unless you fix it with a creep/hydra den, then it is 0% behind. how about Effort vs Light in ASL2 on Eye of the Storm, a game where Effort did nearly everything wrong game decision wise and still had a chance to win it. Light played a 3 fac build WITHOUT turrets protecting minerals and WITHOUT vultures, if you play 3 hatch Muta vs that you should have 5 hatches and the first thing Mutas should do is hit the mineral patches. Instead Effort did way too many lings and focused too little too late on the scvs. Efforts only way to survive the incoming attacks was to keep massing hydras from 3 hatches until you hit the small timing of critical mass where you can fight vs mass Goliath (even vs this mass Goliath build) because you can get a long dense line of hydras compared to the not-so-dense line of Goliaths (because of them being bigger). And you use that small timing to get queens before Terran gets enough tanks in the mix. effort could have had 66% higher production if he had just played "standard" and do whatever he wants afterwards, but instead people use this game as an example of why we need to buff queens.... seriously.... the Jaedong vs Light game HaN- was showing. if we had a full vod i could explain more things, now i can only go after the things i saw in your quick overview. Light played another cc into 3 fac build with late turrets and 1 vulture i think. i dont know if he did 14 cc or not. "he only has a bunker and 2 marines in it" there were 4 marines, it makes a big difference because it doubles the damage output. 1 hydra only has ~5 hp left and 2 also get damaged by half. Jaedong then moves the lings in while the hydras are killing the depot, he loses all lings except 4 against an extremly good scv wall and the 2 Goliath attacking. The angle from which Jaedong attacked with the lings did not have much surface area (between scan and cliff). depot is killed, Jaedong moves in the hydras and the 5hp one dies to the first Goliath shot. Also when Jaedong moves his hydras, he kinda a moved the lings again. Jaedong recollects the hydras (a move on lings again) and starts attacking the scvs. By now all lings except 2 died without killing a single scv (they only killed 1 marine). out of the 2 lings, 1 herp-derps around the cc while the other one is stuck in scvs while trying to get to the Goliath (probably a move). from there on, Light brought in new scvs and begins trading scvs against Hydras while not losing a single Goliath, until reinforcements from both sides arrive. Jaedongs lings get 1 Goliath, but the ongoing Goliath shots reduced the hydra numbers enough that the 3 Goliaths and the remaining scvs could finish it. If Jaedong payed more attention to his lings and attacked together with his hydras, he could have killed more units. if Jaedong didnt just sat there with the hydras taking the Goliath and scv fire and would have moved back slightly avoiding damage while killing the scvs, he wouldnt have lost so many hydras so quickly. inbetween, he also had hydras walking around shortly without use. All in all, his micro was not on point, while Lights micro was on point. scvs were blocking the lings and hydras, he made sure he always attacked with both scvs and Goliath and also made sure that his Goliath wont get killed. Light just played better. All the things i mentioned are just the tip of the iceberg in terms of "how bad people play". But instead of trying to think about what the player did wrong and how he could have played better, people instead call "terran imba, nerf plz!!!!" | ||
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Freakling
Germany1533 Posts
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1904 Posts
Melee: http://blogattach.naver.net/00951cafb5e7e43816fb90a49c7a037bd289709c58/20170429_232_blogfile/kangkuyol_1493435574161_9Fb1Rn_scx/(4)Andromeda_1.2.scx?type=attachment Obs: http://blogattach.naver.net/ea7ff64d546160d7f11b7f4b7693e89831649420/20170429_159_blogfile/kangkuyol_1493435579625_GC0N51_scx/(4)Andromeda_1.2(Ob).scx?type=attachment | ||
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Jealous
10333 Posts
On May 01 2017 09:59 EndingLife wrote: Terran isn't rigged. Flash and Light are just too damn good. I have to agree, kind of. As more and more time passes I am realizing that it's not that Terran isn't bullshit, it's that all races are bullshit. Each race has some ridiculous things that makes them very powerful. Listing just Terran ' s strengths make it seem OP on paper but we could break down all the races similarly. That commentator not only made mistakes as Bakuryu said, he also ignores that Light's vZ was second to none, as good if not better than Flash at times. As far as detectors go, Overlords with speed are practically free detectors that Zerg is guaranteed to have. Protoss observers cost a scan to kill until Vessel is out; until then or until forced out by Turrets or whatever, they are practically permanent scans. While Terran scan is certainly very good, I would not say it is miles ahead of other detection. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2042 Posts
On the other hand, watching Flash gives me nerd chills. His decision making is instant and really 99% correct. It's amazing that can see his opponent plan so much in advance and reacts accordingly, something that many other top tire players like bisu or jaedong are missing. Also Stork, if that guy could maintain his decision making while improving macro he would be a monster impossible to beat.. I agree that terran has some difficult concepts for other races, but come on, starcraft is a multidimensional game and you can always counter your opponent when spotting right weaknesses. All boils down to maps and knowing your opponent tbh. [EDIT] Just looked at "top 5 players of april" topic. We see Flash/Last topping the list as always, but where are other terrans? There is only Rush in top10 who is far from being "the best player". I know it differs month-by-month, but you can't really talk about imbalance when you have this kind of inconsistency. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
On May 01 2017 16:38 Bakuryu wrote: here we are again, Terran is not imba, Other people are just bad. it took Zero 3 years (from when he returned in 2013 until early 2016) to incorporate 1 of the 5 things i was explaining people could do in ZvT vs late mech on FS to be in a general better position in 2012. He was the first one to do it consistantly, which was getting a faster 5th base. Few months later people stopped playing FS only, so others didnt catch up. it took Bisu nearly 1 year from the VANT36.5 final until ASL2 ro16 vs Hero to do 1 of the 2 builds i told people the instant Bisu lost to the 3 hatch ling speed into 4 hatch hydra style (going for cors/reaver in game 3 made me cry in disbelief and rage at Bisu). Nearly all Protoss players blindly follow Bisus style, because Bisu is the commander of the Protoss race and his builds are law, sort of... it has been that way since Bisu returned and probably before that. Do you have any example games of this fast 5th base? Is it one of the close-by thirds on fighting spirit? Which game are you talking about, the one on demian? | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
since there is only 1 asl2 ro16 game between bisu and hero, yes im talking about the game on demian.^^ | ||
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
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EndingLife
United States1602 Posts
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On May 01 2017 21:27 kogeT wrote: I actually think that combining JDs mechanics with ZerOs decision making would make a perfect zerg that would win all terrans.. JD is really terrible at his decision making past mid game, while ZerO somewhat suffers at all these small engagements all over the map where zerg can win a lot. On the other hand, watching Flash gives me nerd chills. His decision making is instant and really 99% correct. It's amazing that can see his opponent plan so much in advance and reacts accordingly, something that many other top tire players like bisu or jaedong are missing. Also Stork, if that guy could maintain his decision making while improving macro he would be a monster impossible to beat.. I agree that terran has some difficult concepts for other races, but come on, starcraft is a multidimensional game and you can always counter your opponent when spotting right weaknesses. All boils down to maps and knowing your opponent tbh. [EDIT] Just looked at "top 5 players of april" topic. We see Flash/Last topping the list as always, but where are other terrans? There is only Rush in top10 who is far from being "the best player". I know it differs month-by-month, but you can't really talk about imbalance when you have this kind of inconsistency. Where are all the zergs? This is a BS narrative of Flash/Last just being good. I am fucking sick of terrans denying how hard this matchup, basically trying to gaslight that all those zergs are actually bad and all terrans are gods that is why basically every terran currently has over 50% win rate right? Just make a list of Top 10 excluding TvP and ZvP, and see how that compares. I bet the Top 10 will be all terran except Effort. | ||
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
On May 02 2017 02:52 EndingLife wrote: 1 gate expand should be able to stop strong FD as long as your control is good. Maybe try throwing a 2nd gate before robo if your control isn't that great? Strong FD? I will start trying that if I don't see them trying to expand. When kiting with goons, is it better to use hold position, stop, or a move? | ||
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AncientSion
73 Posts
But talking about it openly would result in you being called "bad" or "l2p". Now that the pros are openly engaging the topic, how can anyone still deny it ? Its not a big balance problem, but the sum of few small things can sum up, and at some skill level it will be the factor that makes or breaks thingy. Or rather, it happens at every skill level, but only when the skill level of both players is on par, do these edges show up. So it doesnt matter if its S/S or D/D. Personally, my problem is with Tank range and POSSIBLY scan energy cost and/or vision range. Note that the 200/200 problem goes away if tanks would get a small nerf, because the 200/200 problem is just an extension of the siege tank problem. This is my personal opinion. | ||
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Highgamer
1470 Posts
On May 02 2017 03:18 AncientSion wrote: Terran OP and everyone has always known it (i might be exagerating here tm). But talking about it openly would result in you being called "bad" or "l2p". Now that the pros are openly engaging the topic, how can anyone still deny it ? Its not a big balance problem, but the sum of few small things can sum up, and at some skill level it will be the factor that makes or breaks thingy. Or rather, it happens at every skill level, but only when the skill level of both players is on par, do these edges show up. So it doesnt matter if its S/S or D/D. Personally, my problem is with Tank range and POSSIBLY scan energy cost and/or vision range. Note that the 200/200 problem goes away if tanks would get a small nerf, because the 200/200 problem is just an extension of the siege tank problem. This is my personal opinion. This line is wrong. Most players would say that Protoss beats Terran more often if both players are not really good - aka: if the Terran is not insanely good enough to use that edge you're talking about. This is also making it more simple than it actually is, but overall: Zealots, DTs, Storm, Arbiters, Carriers work pretty decently in the hands of no matter what player. Tanks don't. | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5628 Posts
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EndingLife
United States1602 Posts
On May 02 2017 03:17 Headshot wrote: Strong FD? I will start trying that if I don't see them trying to expand. When kiting with goons, is it better to use hold position, stop, or a move? The build you're having problems with is called Strong FD. It's the same as FD but they make 2 tanks, then vulture. The timing comes a bit later so you should be able to back him down from his natural and have more goons at home waiting to defend once he gets to your natural. I use hold position and have had the best luck that way. Oh yeah, if your dragoon range is complete, your goons should be at his natural backing him down... not at your natural. The key is to hit the marines without getting hit by his tanks. If you have the chance to snipe a tank or a vulture, do so. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1602 Posts
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Highgamer
1470 Posts
Flash's strong FD is not just FD with 2 tanks. His strong FD gets depot, rax and gas on 10, thus skipping an SCV early on. Then Terran builds more than the usual 4 marines, up to 8. So the push comes a bit later, but not as late as normal FD into 2 tanks. Terran also cuts a few SCVs later - or the expo is really late. So as long as P survives, even losing all the goons, it should be about even. edit: of course, terran can also do the normal FD and build 2 tanks first, but then it's just to push a little further, and yes, should be defendable with normal 1gate expo. | ||
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