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Bisutopia19307 Posts
On December 08 2016 10:00 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 02:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Please list the top 4 most balance and fun maps made by foreign map makers. If these were in a tournament which ones would you be happy about? Overwatch is up there, Latin Quarter even though its basically a remake of La Mancha. Idk enough about the foreign map scene though. Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 09:30 Highgamer wrote:On December 07 2016 11:43 FlaShFTW wrote:On November 25 2016 06:17 Highgamer wrote:Most of this I've already heard, but nice talk about BW-legends. Mt. Rushmore has not enough heads tho... + Show Spoiler +
00.00- Boxer
15.38- Nada
28.28- Iloveoov
53.24- Bisu
did they seriously not put flash on there? like... seriously? I would put Flash on there instantly, too, but in defense of the guy who did not: He points out that the choice is personal, and not about overall skill or outstanding achievements necessarily (look at Bisu, no OSL, lelelel), but about impact in the history... and even though one can very much so make a point here for Flash, too, it's like with Mt. Rushmore: You couldn't put any recent president up there, could you? (well.. no candidate anyway except Obama huehue). Flash is kinda like still in office... I guess that's the main reason. Also the guy explains pretty convincingly why it would be hard to kick any of these players out. I mean, I wasn't there to watch their eras, but I've heard so often how these three Terrans gave the game a twist early on that changed everything that came thereafter... the same can only be said for "he who shall not be named" and... well... Bisu... well.. I guess the guy just didn't want an all-Terran Mt. Rushmore after all.... + Show Spoiler +no seriously, I love Bisu, you have to love and respect Bisu. Here's a compensation, Bisudagger: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UKtgL5C.jpg) FlaSh revolutionized TvP with 2/1 timing and perfected the 1 Rax FE, he perfected the TvZ matchup with +1 5 Rax, and then when he returned he perfected the mech transition. Yes, Bisu figured out the PvZ matchup, but FlaSh figured out two other matchups and he also had the longest TvT win rate in history as well.
In terms of Mount Rushmore I think it represents an older generation of presidents that I'd equate more to Boxer, Yellow, Nal_ra, and Nada. Bisu feels really out of place with the older names. Flash too (the guy more likely deserves his on monument or mountain). JD, Stork, Flash, Bisu make Rushmore 2.0
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On December 08 2016 10:00 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 02:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Please list the top 4 most balance and fun maps made by foreign map makers. If these were in a tournament which ones would you be happy about? Overwatch is up there, Latin Quarter even though its basically a remake of La Mancha. Idk enough about the foreign map scene though. Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 09:30 Highgamer wrote:On December 07 2016 11:43 FlaShFTW wrote:On November 25 2016 06:17 Highgamer wrote:Most of this I've already heard, but nice talk about BW-legends. Mt. Rushmore has not enough heads tho... + Show Spoiler +
00.00- Boxer
15.38- Nada
28.28- Iloveoov
53.24- Bisu
did they seriously not put flash on there? like... seriously? I would put Flash on there instantly, too, but in defense of the guy who did not: He points out that the choice is personal, and not about overall skill or outstanding achievements necessarily (look at Bisu, no OSL, lelelel), but about impact in the history... and even though one can very much so make a point here for Flash, too, it's like with Mt. Rushmore: You couldn't put any recent president up there, could you? (well.. no candidate anyway except Obama huehue). Flash is kinda like still in office... I guess that's the main reason. Also the guy explains pretty convincingly why it would be hard to kick any of these players out. I mean, I wasn't there to watch their eras, but I've heard so often how these three Terrans gave the game a twist early on that changed everything that came thereafter... the same can only be said for "he who shall not be named" and... well... Bisu... well.. I guess the guy just didn't want an all-Terran Mt. Rushmore after all.... + Show Spoiler +no seriously, I love Bisu, you have to love and respect Bisu. Here's a compensation, Bisudagger: FlaSh revolutionized TvP with 2/1 timing and perfected the 1 Rax FE, he perfected the TvZ matchup with +1 5 Rax, and then when he returned he perfected the mech transition. Yes, Bisu figured out the PvZ matchup, but FlaSh figured out two other matchups and he also had the longest TvT win rate in history as well.
FanTaSy was the first professional player to utilize the late-mechanic play aginst ZerO in 2010, and this changed the match-up more so than any meta-game shift since sAviOr's three hatchery play versus bionic troops. Flash's refinements versus protoss, zerg, and terran match-ups were indeed vital, but they were in no shape or form as revolutionary as you seem to suggest.
FD terran into fast two armory into 2/1 timings was already in heavy usage for years due to players such as ClouD, and Midas. Flash added in his own flavour of adjustments, and took his third comman center earlier if the map allowed it, but this wasn't as game changing as the introduction of FD terran, or the fast two armory, upgrade centric play that was introduced years earlier.
The first professional player to utilize the fast engineering bay into five barrack play was ForGG against Jaedong, not Flash. Flash was able to make certain refinements, and used it to a high level, but you have to give credit where it is due. If playing certain styles better makes you a revolutionary player, than all the old discoveries made by players in the past are being put into use much better now, and makes the current day players all revolutionaries due to their refinements. The broad strokes that changed the entire landscape of the professional scene were few and far between, and Flash's contributions, while significant, aren't as dramatic or mind blowing as some of the discoveries made by the likes of iloveoov, Midas, sAviOr, or Pusan.
Flash would be a lock-in for most criterias, but game changing meta-shifts would not be his particular forte. There are no absolute locks for personal iconic Brood War players in my opinion, as each players had something to offer. What about YellOw, who was the most memed competitor in any realm in Korean internet communities, sAviOr, the chosen one who looked to be the next BoxeR not just in terms of domination, but overall charisma and star power, but ended up crippling the scene with his star power instead of raising it to new heights (the match-fixing was the frontline news in all major television studios, who traditionally never covered e-Sports, partly due to one of the most noticeable names taking part in the dirty deed), Jaedong, who was probably the most dedicated player to his craft in the history of e-Sports and honed his mastery of control over his units to unreal levels, or Stork, the guy who made his debut as a teen when the likes of iloveoov, Reach, and Kingdom were the big names, and was initially branded as the "new trio" of protosses of Anytime, Pusan, and himself, and eventually made it into another group of players composed of an entirely different generation, the Taek-Beng-Lee-Ssang that we all know and love. There's just so much iconic players, and significance to their careers that it's no crime to have certain names missing out. We all have our biases, according to which race we play, which eras we most fondly remember, and which traits in players tends to please us the most. I for one, respect that LS decided to go for some of the more historic names, when the Brood War scene was at its pinnacle in terms of finanical growth and viewership. These newer generation of players that we idolize all grew up dreaming of becoming the next BoxeR, YellOw, Reach, or NaDa.
The level of play may be incomparable to now, but in terms of signicance, in terms of being an icon for the scene? I'd go with a lot of these older players that shaped and defined the outlook of the entire scene. The history of Brood War viewership numbers lives and dies with BoxeR's performance in individual leagues. NaDa was the most accomplished player of all time. iloveoov revolutionized the way the game was played that impacted the meta-game more so than any other single player in history. Bisu was the pretty boy, the next potential superstar, the mechanical god, the protoss hope, and the front runner of a new era in protoss versus zerg match up. Bisu is a little different from the previous entries in that he failed to live up to the expectations set for him while the others shocked the world, but he is still an icon for his race, his era, and even in the streaming realm. I think it's okay to dismiss a six time individual league winner for once. We already have one on the list, and Flash already gets his due adulation from the foreign audience who think Flash is some kind of a dead lock-in as the greatest Brood War player of all time.
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On December 08 2016 10:00 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 02:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Please list the top 4 most balance and fun maps made by foreign map makers. If these were in a tournament which ones would you be happy about? Overwatch is up there, Latin Quarter even though its basically a remake of La Mancha. Idk enough about the foreign map scene though. Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 09:30 Highgamer wrote:On December 07 2016 11:43 FlaShFTW wrote:On November 25 2016 06:17 Highgamer wrote:Most of this I've already heard, but nice talk about BW-legends. Mt. Rushmore has not enough heads tho... + Show Spoiler +
00.00- Boxer
15.38- Nada
28.28- Iloveoov
53.24- Bisu
did they seriously not put flash on there? like... seriously? I would put Flash on there instantly, too, but in defense of the guy who did not: He points out that the choice is personal, and not about overall skill or outstanding achievements necessarily (look at Bisu, no OSL, lelelel), but about impact in the history... and even though one can very much so make a point here for Flash, too, it's like with Mt. Rushmore: You couldn't put any recent president up there, could you? (well.. no candidate anyway except Obama huehue). Flash is kinda like still in office... I guess that's the main reason. Also the guy explains pretty convincingly why it would be hard to kick any of these players out. I mean, I wasn't there to watch their eras, but I've heard so often how these three Terrans gave the game a twist early on that changed everything that came thereafter... the same can only be said for "he who shall not be named" and... well... Bisu... well.. I guess the guy just didn't want an all-Terran Mt. Rushmore after all.... + Show Spoiler +no seriously, I love Bisu, you have to love and respect Bisu. Here's a compensation, Bisudagger: FlaSh revolutionized TvP with 2/1 timing and perfected the 1 Rax FE, he perfected the TvZ matchup with +1 5 Rax, and then when he returned he perfected the mech transition. Yes, Bisu figured out the PvZ matchup, but FlaSh figured out two other matchups and he also had the longest TvT win rate in history as well.
If I read posts like this, look back at my post they responded to, it saddens me to see that some people just don't read what others write... I just have to doubt that they actually want to communicate and respond, not just say what they think without any regard to the current development of the discussion... if you did read my post, why wouldn't you add just one explanatory sentence like "I get your points, I want to disagree with xyz though. That is because (...). I would like to explain why one could put Flash up there."
I gave two or three reasons to indicate that I know what Flash has achieved and that he is the best, but why I still understand why they didn't put him on Mt. Rushmore... You just ignored everything I wrote...
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Bisutopia19307 Posts
On December 08 2016 17:19 Highgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 10:00 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 08 2016 02:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Please list the top 4 most balance and fun maps made by foreign map makers. If these were in a tournament which ones would you be happy about? Overwatch is up there, Latin Quarter even though its basically a remake of La Mancha. Idk enough about the foreign map scene though. On December 08 2016 09:30 Highgamer wrote:On December 07 2016 11:43 FlaShFTW wrote:On November 25 2016 06:17 Highgamer wrote:Most of this I've already heard, but nice talk about BW-legends. Mt. Rushmore has not enough heads tho... + Show Spoiler +
00.00- Boxer
15.38- Nada
28.28- Iloveoov
53.24- Bisu
did they seriously not put flash on there? like... seriously? I would put Flash on there instantly, too, but in defense of the guy who did not: He points out that the choice is personal, and not about overall skill or outstanding achievements necessarily (look at Bisu, no OSL, lelelel), but about impact in the history... and even though one can very much so make a point here for Flash, too, it's like with Mt. Rushmore: You couldn't put any recent president up there, could you? (well.. no candidate anyway except Obama huehue). Flash is kinda like still in office... I guess that's the main reason. Also the guy explains pretty convincingly why it would be hard to kick any of these players out. I mean, I wasn't there to watch their eras, but I've heard so often how these three Terrans gave the game a twist early on that changed everything that came thereafter... the same can only be said for "he who shall not be named" and... well... Bisu... well.. I guess the guy just didn't want an all-Terran Mt. Rushmore after all.... + Show Spoiler +no seriously, I love Bisu, you have to love and respect Bisu. Here's a compensation, Bisudagger: FlaSh revolutionized TvP with 2/1 timing and perfected the 1 Rax FE, he perfected the TvZ matchup with +1 5 Rax, and then when he returned he perfected the mech transition. Yes, Bisu figured out the PvZ matchup, but FlaSh figured out two other matchups and he also had the longest TvT win rate in history as well. If I read posts like this, look back at my post they responded to, it saddens me to see that some people just don't read what others write... I just have to doubt that they actually want to communicate and respond, not just say what they think without any regard to the current development of the discussion... if you did read my post, why wouldn't you add just one explanatory sentence like "I get your points, I want to disagree with xyz though. That is because (...). I would like to explain why one could put Flash up there." I gave two or three reasons to indicate that I know what Flash has achieved and that he is the best, but why I still understand why they didn't put him on Mt. Rushmore... You just ignored everything I wrote...
He's a Flash fan. You can't fault him for BLIND fanboism. Friggin Terrans.
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Germany3128 Posts
I have a question: Isn't it kind of bad for the ASL that there are so many restreams by various progamers? For example the opening day of the ASL had like 25k peak on official streams but like 50k on Jaedong/Flash/Britney/Shuttle stream. Doesn't this in the end hurt the ASL? Or does Afreeca not care, as long as people are viewing the tournament on their platform?
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On December 09 2016 02:26 TheNewEra wrote:
I have a question: Isn't it kind of bad for the ASL that there are so many restreams by various progamers? For example the opening day of the ASL had like 25k peak on official streams but like 50k on Jaedong/Flash/Britney/Shuttle stream. Doesn't this in the end hurt the ASL? Or does Afreeca not care, as long as people are viewing the tournament on their platform?
Adding on to that, there are also official Youtube and Twitch streams as well, it makes it more difficult to gather viewer numbers.
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yes but they want to watch Jaedong casting ASL or flash or britney,it doesnt mean they will go to ASL stream.for example when terror is casting the ASL he can bring 30 k viewers alone,and they are not there only for bw but for terror.
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Also the sponsor will get exposure nevertheless. It won't directly get credited towards ASL, but still KT will get exposure.
The scene is healthy AND sustainable. BW has way more viewers than SC2, who can't sustain there tournaments anymore
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Bisutopia19307 Posts
On December 09 2016 02:26 TheNewEra wrote:
I have a question: Isn't it kind of bad for the ASL that there are so many restreams by various progamers? For example the opening day of the ASL had like 25k peak on official streams but like 50k on Jaedong/Flash/Britney/Shuttle stream. Doesn't this in the end hurt the ASL? Or does Afreeca not care, as long as people are viewing the tournament on their platform?
It's actually great for AfreecaTV because they can use the numbers across the board. It's also a great way to build a relationship with all parties involved and keep fans happy all at the same time. That's why I think it's really cool that they support the English and Korean so well.
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On December 08 2016 12:33 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 10:00 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 08 2016 02:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Please list the top 4 most balance and fun maps made by foreign map makers. If these were in a tournament which ones would you be happy about? Overwatch is up there, Latin Quarter even though its basically a remake of La Mancha. Idk enough about the foreign map scene though. On December 08 2016 09:30 Highgamer wrote:On December 07 2016 11:43 FlaShFTW wrote:On November 25 2016 06:17 Highgamer wrote:Most of this I've already heard, but nice talk about BW-legends. Mt. Rushmore has not enough heads tho... + Show Spoiler +
00.00- Boxer
15.38- Nada
28.28- Iloveoov
53.24- Bisu
did they seriously not put flash on there? like... seriously? I would put Flash on there instantly, too, but in defense of the guy who did not: He points out that the choice is personal, and not about overall skill or outstanding achievements necessarily (look at Bisu, no OSL, lelelel), but about impact in the history... and even though one can very much so make a point here for Flash, too, it's like with Mt. Rushmore: You couldn't put any recent president up there, could you? (well.. no candidate anyway except Obama huehue). Flash is kinda like still in office... I guess that's the main reason. Also the guy explains pretty convincingly why it would be hard to kick any of these players out. I mean, I wasn't there to watch their eras, but I've heard so often how these three Terrans gave the game a twist early on that changed everything that came thereafter... the same can only be said for "he who shall not be named" and... well... Bisu... well.. I guess the guy just didn't want an all-Terran Mt. Rushmore after all.... + Show Spoiler +no seriously, I love Bisu, you have to love and respect Bisu. Here's a compensation, Bisudagger: FlaSh revolutionized TvP with 2/1 timing and perfected the 1 Rax FE, he perfected the TvZ matchup with +1 5 Rax, and then when he returned he perfected the mech transition. Yes, Bisu figured out the PvZ matchup, but FlaSh figured out two other matchups and he also had the longest TvT win rate in history as well. FanTaSy was the first professional player to utilize the late-mechanic play aginst ZerO in 2010, and this changed the match-up more so than any meta-game shift since sAviOr's three hatchery play versus bionic troops.
He actually said that Flash "perfected" mech switch, not "invented" it. But it was not Flash alone, in the same time both Fantasy and Light were experimenting with mech transition too, with Fantasy playing tank heavy transition, while Flash playing more balanced type..
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On December 09 2016 04:04 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 12:33 Letmelose wrote:On December 08 2016 10:00 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 08 2016 02:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Please list the top 4 most balance and fun maps made by foreign map makers. If these were in a tournament which ones would you be happy about? Overwatch is up there, Latin Quarter even though its basically a remake of La Mancha. Idk enough about the foreign map scene though. On December 08 2016 09:30 Highgamer wrote:On December 07 2016 11:43 FlaShFTW wrote:On November 25 2016 06:17 Highgamer wrote:Most of this I've already heard, but nice talk about BW-legends. Mt. Rushmore has not enough heads tho... + Show Spoiler +
00.00- Boxer
15.38- Nada
28.28- Iloveoov
53.24- Bisu
did they seriously not put flash on there? like... seriously? I would put Flash on there instantly, too, but in defense of the guy who did not: He points out that the choice is personal, and not about overall skill or outstanding achievements necessarily (look at Bisu, no OSL, lelelel), but about impact in the history... and even though one can very much so make a point here for Flash, too, it's like with Mt. Rushmore: You couldn't put any recent president up there, could you? (well.. no candidate anyway except Obama huehue). Flash is kinda like still in office... I guess that's the main reason. Also the guy explains pretty convincingly why it would be hard to kick any of these players out. I mean, I wasn't there to watch their eras, but I've heard so often how these three Terrans gave the game a twist early on that changed everything that came thereafter... the same can only be said for "he who shall not be named" and... well... Bisu... well.. I guess the guy just didn't want an all-Terran Mt. Rushmore after all.... + Show Spoiler +no seriously, I love Bisu, you have to love and respect Bisu. Here's a compensation, Bisudagger: FlaSh revolutionized TvP with 2/1 timing and perfected the 1 Rax FE, he perfected the TvZ matchup with +1 5 Rax, and then when he returned he perfected the mech transition. Yes, Bisu figured out the PvZ matchup, but FlaSh figured out two other matchups and he also had the longest TvT win rate in history as well. FanTaSy was the first professional player to utilize the late-mechanic play aginst ZerO in 2010, and this changed the match-up more so than any meta-game shift since sAviOr's three hatchery play versus bionic troops. He actually said that Flash "perfected" mech switch, not "invented" it. But it was not Flash alone, in the same time both Fantasy and Light were experimenting with mech transition too, with Fantasy playing tank heavy transition, while Flash playing more balanced type..
First of all, the original post was defending Bisu's position under the basis that the influence on the landscape of the scene (commercially, in terms of the meta-game etc) was taken into account when composing the list. Bisu's successful coup over sAviOr not only marks the rise of the protoss race against zerg, but a starts the reign of the Taek-Beng-Lee-Ssang era, and his attempt to become the next bonjwa over the course of the 2007 season was one of the most heavily followed and highly hyped stories in the history of the game (even though it ultimately ended in failure). The notion that what Flash is not only more successful, but had "revolutionized" and "perfected" other match-ups is ridiculous. sAviOr's textbook play versus bionic terran play, that's revolutionary. FanTaSy's relatively smooth transition to a pure mechanic army after starting with bionic play, that's revolutionary. In a game that's over ten years old and has been stuck on a single patch over the same period, it's no shit that whoever plays later on is involved in "perfecting" a previous concept that shaped the way the game was played.
Flash is one of the greatest players to have ever touched the game, but his legacy outside of Korea benefits a lot from the influx of non-Korean viewers who got interested in the dying years of professional Brood War due to various circumstances including the spike in interest of the overall franchise due to Starcraft 2, English coverage, and the evolution of internet coverage of various media content. He achieved a god-like status in what some perceive as the only relevant era of professional Starcraft (due to their familiarity with the era), when the fact of the matter is that the pinnacle of the Brood War scene was was between 2004~2006, and the ratings dropped drastically after 2007. There isn't a single league that managed to come close the viewership of the glory days of Brood War after the 2007 season was over, and the scene as a whole was scaling down due to the match-fixing scandals, legal disputes between KeSPA and Blizzard. The drop in quality of the amateur pool, stagnating viewership, and uncertainty over the future of the game was all a reality, while Flash was on his journey to become the greatest of all. Despite all this, some people are often quick to drop the opinion that Flash is clearly the best of all time because he achieved so much in an era that mattered the most due to the high skill level (when I believe the truth is that it mattered the most to them).
In a list such as this, where the criteria is vague and entirely dependent on a individual's personal experience with the scene, I believe it's no crime to omit Flash in a scene that was so rich in history with absolutely amazing players that all brought their own unique flavour and greatness to the game. BoxeR, NaDa, and iloveoov are all legends of the game with good cases for being included in a list such as this, that definitely are not discussed all that much due to their relevance as top competitors being non-existent for quite some time. Bisu brings about his own brand of significance that Flash lacks. Does this Flash a lesser player than these players? No. Does he need to be included in any list involving Brood War? I don't think so.
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5398 Posts
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Stealing the thread here for a minute as i cannot find one that suits my requirements. If anyone is interested in playing alot of BW and having a good time add me up on...well....BW didn't have a battlenet friends feature that is actually decent so add me on skype RobinJohnsson91
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That is super epic, thanks for sharing!
On December 16 2016 04:26 RobinJohnsson wrote:
Stealing the thread here for a minute as i cannot find one that suits my requirements. If anyone is interested in playing alot of BW and having a good time add me up on...well....BW didn't have a battlenet friends feature that is actually decent so add me on skype RobinJohnsson91
You might want to consider this thread then:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/427026-practice-partners-official
When you're asking for people interested in playing it would be helpful to know what skill level you're at and what race you play (if you want to play 1v1s, otherwise indicate 2v2 or 3v3s or UMS).
It is unclear what you mean by battle.net, are you actually using the classic Blizzard servers (Europe, U.S. East, U.S.West, Asia) ? If so you should switch over to the private server ICCup, the friends list function is great if you're not registering new accounts frequently.
If you need help getting on ICCup or the like then just feel free to ask!
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You know, since Artosis and Rapid have brought it up a couple times, what happened to observer features? Didn't OGN games have a mineral/gas/supply counter while GOM Classic had unit counters? Why aren't such mods making an appearance these days?
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Two reasons:
1. They were lost in the depths of the internet, the plugin was originally written by someone on a now nonexistent Korean forum and nobody has bothered to upload it somewhere else. It would be a pain in the ass to recreate something like that again.
2. It has shown to make crowds less excited, people can better calculate how the game will turn out and it takes away from much excitement. Not my words, this is from the SoSPA era.
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it's not always it takes away the fun, i remember jangbi taking the most important game from fantasy after being 50+ lower on supply but continued to make carriers :3 it's better not to see it in my opinion though
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Any fresh news about Sonic?
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Word on the street is he lives in a submarine traveling the Indian Ocean.
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On December 16 2016 07:50 Gamlet wrote:
Any fresh news about Sonic?
His company appears to be dead, the website for sure is.
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EPT
