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BWMN Open - final write-up

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-12 00:08:02
February 01 2013 16:20 GMT
#1
My final writeup on the tourney.

So I finally came along to update this... And then events already had bypassed me, and three of the maps (DeserTec, Gemlong and Resonance) actually got added to the ICCUp map pack...
Yet unfortunately, still there is not much of a protoss PoV on the maps...
My formatting probably still sucks, and some typos remain, but my head is flooded with so many great new map ideas by now, I think I'd much prefer spending time on those than perfecting this OP


This thread is mostly meant to help us get final opinions, on how you liked the tourney, and the maps.

So please write something along the following lines:

- who are you, what is your experience with Brood War, which race do you play, did you follow the tourney, or even play some of the maps, and basically anything else that you deem noteworthy here
- how did you like the tourney, the format, the casts, or what would you like to see improved for future tourneys?
- finally, how did you like the maps, did you like the gameplay, did you like watching games on the maps, did you enjoy playing on them yourself? And, most importantly, do you think they are balanced?

I wrote down my own thoughts on the maps below; I spoilered everything, so you do not have to read what I wrote before you give your own opinion.


(2)Cross Game
+ Show Spoiler [Image of latest version] +
[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler [write-up] +

Gameplay
This map saw a lot of games, with a good number for each matchup. For the most part it played out as intended, and both players and commentators seemed to like this map the most durign the tourney. What surprised me was, how many players took any other expansions than those at 4 and 10 as their 3rds, and I would like to hear some of the rationale behind it, or whether it was only bad decission making and lack of knowledge of the map's layout.
What kept bothering me, is how easily terran seemed to die time and time against flanks, especially against Zerg, and how little successful agression therefore we saw coming from terran/ how passive most of terrans' play was. Still terrans seemed to like this map, and Zerg players where simply just dominant to begin with, so maybe much of it can be attributed to skill differences again.
On the other hand, TechnicS, of all players, mentioned he felt uncomfortable against T on this map, so maybe I am entirely wrong. I would greatly appreciate, if you could be les vague on the issue, and try to pin down what bothered you, though, TechnicS. That'd be nice.

Balance
As mentioned, terran migh have a hard time, due to the wide open areas, epecially in front of the nat. I tried to improve on it a bit, by extending a cliff wall next to the mineral only, to tighten those areas up. Unfortunately there haven't been any longer TvZs on the map since then, to allow good judgement.
Aside from the doubts I expressed above, Cross Game seems probably very well balanced.



(2)Resonance II
+ Show Spoiler [Image of latest version] +
[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler [write-up] +

Gameplay
I picked this map for this map pack, because, despite its seemingly very simple structure, it showed some quite unusual and interesting properties. It's rare to see a map that encourages macro heavy mass expanding game to such a degree, yet still strongly discourages turtling.
And I am very happy to have seen this map play out exactly the way I pictured it to.
Especially intitally we could see a lot of cheese play attempts here, non surprisingly, given the seemingly striking combination of known enemy location, rather short rushing distance, multiple scouting paths and a buildable middle.
Something else that players figured out quickly, though, was how to use the easily walled tight main choke to their advantage, and more than one cheese litterally just ran against a wall.
And so we could finally see this map showing its full potential in macro heavy, agressive games, like Bakuryu vs. dsaqwe or Radley vs. Cryoc, where players could make good use of the multiple paths and harrass potetnial of the expansions.
This map also showed good potetial for unusual and creative plays. First of there's TechnicS' use of infested terrans against WandS, of course, but especially worth mentioning are the interesting options that the main chokes offered, both defensivels and offensivaly, especially to terran players, as Radley repetedly demonstrated with his creative use of barack walling at that choke.

Balance
With all the expansions having some kind of wide ramp or choke and the lack of any real far expansion to take, this map seemed a bit imbalanced against Zerg, especially in ZvT, to me. Still, Octzerg picked it as his looser's choice against Radley, but went for what I can probably best call a two base-muta-all-in, which he eventually lost, kind of supporting my point.
Protoss also did poorly against terran here, but that seemed to be mostly due to not practicing the map and knowing its strucutre, and therefore being surprised by terran attacking from an unexpected direction (I think the game I am thinking of right now was Radek vs. TheMarine).

So T>Z is probably the only real concern here.


(3)Hazard Black
+ Show Spoiler [Image of latest version] +
[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler [write-up] +

Gameplay
Noteworthy games I remember where the final game between Bakuryu and dsaqwe, a long-lasting PvZ, where eventually all expansions where taken and the map almost mined out, and a lot of ZvZ, especially during the Semi-Finals bewteen TechnicS and Sziky, where both players secured three bases and TechnicS almost reached his Hive tech.
Unforunately that makes it still somwhat hard to judge overall gameplay, because all the other non-mirror matches seemed ebntirely decided by vast differences in player skills or bad decissions, very early on, by one player, and therefore did not even last long enough to go beyond two-base play.

Balance
Terran players seem to unanimously dislike this map, because of its openness and hard to aquire third gas. However, I still somewhat feel like that terran players simply haven't really figured out this map, yet. What I would have expected is the variant, where you just wall of your nat choke and move out through the backdoor, taking the sfae mineral only as a third and then the narrow-ramped gas expansion next to it as a pretty safe third gas, which would be very similar to how terran expands on maps such as Matchpoint or Aztec, which share the charateristics of a close by mineral only, but a fairly far third gas.
Protoss also seemed to struggle with the expansion layout a bit, but had no trouble taking the open expansion in front of the nat against Zerg with a lot of cannons, and the option of backdoor expanding to the mineral only would probably be a good one, too.

So overall I would say that balance for terran remains questionable, but it's certainly a good map for Zerg and Protoss.


(4)DeserTec
+ Show Spoiler [Image of latest version] +
[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler [write-up] +

Gameplay
Uh, we knew this would be out of the norm.
ZvZ was by far the most prevalent matchup we saw here, which is unfortunate because it's the matchup which, barring different rush distances, basically degrades any map to a fading background to running lings and flying mutas...
TvZ was, unfortunately, but also not surprisingly, dominated by BBS.
Still, the map is definitely not just a terran graveyard; with all the easily available gas, quick tech and high tank/vessel counts would have been no problem to achieve.
For TvP, we saw only one game, TheMarine vs. Terranos, which proved one of my predictions about gameplay though: Protoss can no longer rely on (oure) goons at all, even if they manage to hold a good defensive position on the force fields, speed vulture raids with mines can easily force them back, out of position, due to the difficulty in sniping mines or vultures. So in TvP it is definitely Protoss who has to play out of their comfort zone and have to develope new, creative, map specific strategies, to compensate for the severely decreased power of goons and the strong threat of tank splash and mine fields on the force fields. Early Speedlot into either templar tech or fast Shuttle and Reaver would probably be the answer here. Zealot bombs would be much stronger, due to dislocated point of impact of tank splash attacks.
The TvT between Cryoc and Radley, though long and tedious, was still interesting to watch, because it produced the use of some nice unstandard units and tactics.
Still, for TvT it's definitely been proven to be the epitome of a turtle map, with map finally decided by who held the last available resources. That's probably not what you want to see as a player, or spectator, in the long term.
ZvP was a huge letdown to me, because of consistently bad decission making on Zerg's side. On this map Hydras or Mutas just aren't a good option against the heavy Zealot/Archon pressure Protoss put out. Maybe Zerg players where unsecure about going Lurker/ling against Protoss, but it's definitely a valid strategy.
So we never saw, how a late game ZvP bewteen Ling/Lurker/Defiler/Ultra and Zealot/Templar/Archon/possibly Reaver would have played out, which is really unfortunate.


Balance
As far as conventional tactics are concerned, with Z>T, T>P and P>Z this map pretty much reverses the usual "comfort relations" of BW, in each case due to forced restrictions in tech choices (Terran needs firebats against lings and later on a lot of splash damage, Zerg cannot use Hydras or Mutas efficiently against Protoss, and Protoss cannot rely on goons vs. terran)
How this would develope, with new, map specific tactics, I can still only speculate about.
Probably Z>T, or even Z>>T.
T>P also seems likely, because Protoss would probably become entirely reliant on good psi storms in the long run.
ZvP would probably be pretty balanced, maybe with a small advantage for one side or the other. It would probably depend on how well Protoss manages to deal with lurkers witout relying on goons.


(4)Melting Pot
+ Show Spoiler [Image of latest version] +
[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler [write-up] +

Gameplay
When I think about this map, what I remember the most are some really nice TvZs. With the rather tight passages and bridges along the outskirts and limited flanking space this was definitely one of the better maps for terran, but the wide ramps to the thirds also have proven to provide great opportunites for agression against them for Zerg. But all the matchups seemed to play out fine here, as well.
As expected, contains on the bridges where strong, and a pretty dominant tactical feature seen on this map. But we could also witness some very nice and successful contain breaks in all matchups, so it really seems to work out as an interesting feature, without causing major imbalance.
What I missed a bit was, players splitting their unit into two control groups and sending them separately across one of the double bridges each, which definitely alow you to move units very fast and efficiently even through those tight chokes.
The only thing that really bothers me a bit, is the bad PvZ statistics, coupled with the fact that Protoss players consistently went for one base builds or gate expands, which is why I want to ask all Protoss players who played on Melting POt: Was this a voluntary tactical decision, because, with the added option of easily defending your natural at the bridges, you considered early gate builds beneficial for early agression, or did you just feel uncomfortable going for a standard forge expand?

Balance
Aside from doubts concerning ZvP, as explained above, Melting Pot seems to have managed to provide some unusual game play, while retaining good balance. It even seems to be the most popular of the four player maps by now.


(4)Gemlong
+ Show Spoiler [Image of latest version] +
[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler [write-up] +

Gameplay
According to the latest polls, this map, that initially was praised as the next Fighting Spirit, seems to have fallen from grace a bit. The reasons remain mostly obscure to me though. There were a lot of persisiting issues with resource mining, but that has all been fixed up by now.
Players seemed to feel immediately comfortable on Gemlong, though, which is not too surprising, the layout is straight forward enough. The ridges proved to be important to gain the upper hand in engagements, especially in TvP, which in my opinion makes the map especially nice for that matchup, as well as TvT.
Radley, on ICCup, voiced some criticism, however that:
According to him, the thirds were to good for Zerg and the middle to open, making the map hard for terran to play on, which, in direct comparison to Melting Pot, which has very similar thirds, but is much less open, seems fair enough. Maybe shrinking the ramps to the tirds to normal size, to limit the agression potential of Zerg against them, compared to terran would help this issue.
Radley also criticized the distances on the map, which I do not yet fully understand, becasue objectively Gemlong is as big as any other map, pathing is very direct, and rushing distances are even a bit shorter than, for example, on Melting Pot. So I would like to hear, how radley came to that impression.

Balance
Balance seems really good here, initially Protoss faired very well against Zerg, but that was mostly because of bad build order choices I think.


And the Future?
The good news is, that three of these maps were added to the newest ICCup map pack, so hopefully we are gonna see some more play on them in the future.
But the tourney was also a success in motivating mappers, and already brought in a surge of high quality new maps on broodwarmaps.net. We are already working on a new map pack, which will be released presumably in march, with another tourney following at a yet to be determined time.
Among four brand new maps we will also bring back two of this pack's maps, to ensure some continuity and give some reward to the players, who spend so much time preparing on these maps, for their efforts. At the moment Gemlong and Cross Game are the maps designated to be reused, but this may still be subject to change.

Final Credits
A lots of people spend a lot of their time and efforts to make this tourney happen, and I want to formally thank them here:
Gnom, Phobic, KinosJourney, K_A, JungleTerrain, and of course, CrystalDrag, for putting a lot of their valuable tima and love into making these maps;
traceurling, for all his efforts in promoting the maps and the tourney here and on ICCup;
LML, for making everything run smoothly;
Mewka for making sure Liquipedia kept up to date;
Gecko for his graphics;
All the players of this tourney, who showed us some remarkable and exciting games;
A special mention for TechnicS here, who not only was the very deserving winner of the finals, but also spent many an hour with me, testing and discussing maps and is generally just a great guy!+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Beware, it's mutacroco harassment!

L_Master, Nina, and of course, most of all, birdie, master of the 4-pool, for doing a great job in casting almost every single game of this tourney.
And, lest I forget, of course Radley, who not only considerably supported the casting crew, but also played a quite remarkably tourney of his own, and for his pretty kool science weasels!;
last but not least, our sponsor and head-planner, the legendary L3gendary, without whom all this wouldn't have been possible.

Thanks a lot, you guys are great, it was a remarkable experience for me, and I really hope to have you around again for another tourney, soon!
Pucca
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Taiwan1280 Posts
February 01 2013 19:38 GMT
#2
Nice write up. Do you plan to use these maps for further development or re-use them in another tour?
Master Chief
vOdToasT
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Sweden2870 Posts
February 01 2013 19:40 GMT
#3
If I was able to be attracted to maps, Gemlong would make me horny.
If it's stupid but it works, then it's not stupid* (*Or: You are stupid for losing to it, and gotta git gud)
thezanursic
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
5497 Posts
February 01 2013 20:22 GMT
#4
I see a lot of potential in these maps I really hope that some of the get picked up by iccup!
http://i45.tinypic.com/9j2cdc.jpg Let it be so!
traceurling
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1240 Posts
February 01 2013 20:56 GMT
#5
On February 02 2013 04:38 Pucca wrote:
Nice write up. Do you plan to use these maps for further development or re-use them in another tour?


We will be re-using the popular/balanced ones for another tour after more testing and stuff...
Also we'll be pushing for the popular ones to be added it iCCup, which is the purpose of this thread so that we can see which ones the community likes/thinks will be balanced so we can make the maps attractive to iCCup, so please take the time to write up which maps you liked and why etc.
Thanks :D
"Appreciate the things you have before they become the things you had."
LRM)TechnicS
Profile Joined May 2008
Bulgaria1565 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-01 21:15:48
February 01 2013 21:02 GMT
#6
As a starter I will copy paste what I wrote for the final's interview:

At first I thought of the maps of this tournament as good looking maps and that have a lot of potential. But I was also worried
about that they are not really well balanced mineral/gaswise and felt rather uncomfortable playing on them in the first rounds of the tournament.
Later on, thanks to the readiness and the hard work of Freakling (the mapmaker), the maps became better and better after each round.
I think that only some small things are left that need to be checked and eventually improved. IMHO the maps are almost ready to be used in more tournaments.
Although, I didn't play too many ZvPs and ZvTs throughout the tournament, the 3 and 4 player maps seem really good and that they allow not only classical, standard but also new, fresh strategies to be employed. I only felt uncomfortable in a ZvT on one of the two player maps - Cross Game and that makes me unsure how bad/good for the zerg the two player maps will be in zvp and/or zvt.
Enjoy the game
LRM)TechnicS
Profile Joined May 2008
Bulgaria1565 Posts
February 01 2013 21:15 GMT
#7
Since I didn't get to play any ZvP or ZvT on DeserTec and Hazard Black for example, I think that we need a bit more games to better understand how different MUs work/play out on these maps. Perhaps next tournament could be with some quick ladder stage in the begining that would give us more games. Or maybe occasional small-prized showmatches that will probably give motivation for players to practice more on the maps.

As far as we are talking Cross Game. The map feels rather small for Z v T and it seems really uncomfortable (if both players play standardly) taking any other 3rd expo besides 10 (if im bottom left) or 4 (if im top right). I think the T could take advantage of that rather easily. But yet again, I might be wrong. Although it is possible that the map allows some cute strategies that T would not expect too but that are not yet revealed.
Enjoy the game
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
February 01 2013 22:34 GMT
#8
Note: I will update this soon, add more info, links to statistics and games, credits, make it look better, fix my typos... Just not today, I already spend more than two hours writing this (it doesn't really seem so much text, but probably that's just because of font size and spoilers...), I need a break. Sorry that it seems a bot rushed, but due to time restrictions it in deed is so far...
radley
Profile Joined August 2008
Poland582 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-02 12:15:07
February 02 2013 12:14 GMT
#9
I would like to see Resonance, Cross Game, and Melting Pot in iccup mappack. I have written about it before in iccup thread. Resonance has fresh agreesive style, and is forcing turtle swarm zergs to think about something else. Melting pot is very good (balanced) for tvz, but somehow protosses need to figure out how to solve problem with lurker contain behind bridges. CrossGame seems to be also balanced. And i don't agree with Technics, zerg has a lot of space there, especial that distance beetwen bases is so long.

About my statement of Gemlong, i used wrong words to describe it well. I wasn't thinking about long patches, but open view of map with short chokes to natural, which is helpful for late game zerg. Middle of map is good for zerg, because of those ramps over there, which terran have to take into account, because he has only range units. And really, it reminds me more Dante's Peak without one extra gas expansion per player than Fighting Spirit.
TL+ Member
LRM)TechnicS
Profile Joined May 2008
Bulgaria1565 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-04 09:20:12
February 04 2013 09:17 GMT
#10
I would like to add that all of these maps will fit smoothly into the iccup map pool.
Enjoy the game
Glioburd
Profile Joined April 2008
France1911 Posts
February 04 2013 09:47 GMT
#11
On February 04 2013 18:17 LRM)TechnicS wrote:
I would like to add that all of these maps will fit smoothly into the iccup map pool.

Yeah same ! These maps looks cool but no one would play it if they aren't iCCup ladder maps
"You should hate loosing, but you should never fear defeat." NaDa.
thezanursic
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
5497 Posts
February 10 2013 19:10 GMT
#12
Congratz. I think we should consider this tournament a success since 3 out of the 6 got into the iccup map pool!

http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/content/news/the_newest_maps_on_iccup.html
http://i45.tinypic.com/9j2cdc.jpg Let it be so!
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
February 12 2013 00:09 GMT
#13
Finally wrote up some update with final credits... I think I lost track of all the people who lend their helping hand at some point or another, to help run this tourney. So if you miss your name in the credits, just tell me, and I'll gladly add you.
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2142 Posts
February 12 2013 01:41 GMT
#14
Glad to see the tournament was a success - haven't had the time to watch any of the games yet but I'm looking forward to seeing some classic BW action.

I'm not surprised protoss players didn't FFE on Melting Pot. Walling those bridges would a lot different than walling a normal choke - you need more buildings, and you basically can't use any of the standard building placements. Basically since the total width of the entrance is narrower than normal but would require more buildings to wall, I can see why players would think it's easier to just block with zealots.
vibeo gane,
thezanursic
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
5497 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-16 18:57:25
February 16 2013 15:59 GMT
#15
NVM it's unbuildable -.-
http://i45.tinypic.com/9j2cdc.jpg Let it be so!
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