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Stork: "There needs to be a Players Council." - Page 21

Forum Index > BW General
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If you derail this thread to argue about SC2 vs BW in any context other than that of the interview (e.g. saying things like "colosi suck" or "all BW fans are elitist jerks!"), I will ban you for at least a week, if not more. This is your only warning. I added this page 17

You have been warned
~GMarshal
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-24 13:41:09
May 24 2012 12:51 GMT
#401
The head of the SC2 team FXO had a big blog post on this. Thought it was worth posting, just because an owner of a Korean team, even a non-KeSPA SC2 one, has more insight than most of us do.

(I'm not endorsing his comments, which I actually have trouble understanding, I just think that a team owner's viewpoint is relavent enough to mention)

http://fxoboss.tumblr.com/post/23658060768/stork-on-kespa-player-conditions

For reference, here is the interview (thanks Jinro for tweeting it) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339466

The teams in Korea who are not part of KESPA have rallied together to negotiate with KESPA about conditions for players and teams in the KESPA run tournaments.

For those of you who are not in the know, there are many reasons why. But I am going to focus on the interview with STORK.

The poor guy has felt the need to stand up and voice his feelings to the public on behalf of the other gamers who are ‘suffering’ for lack of a better word, within the KESPA organisation.

Whilst some sort of organisational control is necessary in e-sports, KESPA has been very abusive of their power.

STORK is the first person to recently voice legitimate complaints about KESPA with legitimate reasoning behind it since SC2 came out (AFAIK). During his interview he was pretty much crying, and talking about his distress dealing with the transition.

The issue that STORK has raised regarding the BW maps is the biggest concern for me. The fact map versions were not finalised well in advance is a clear indication of mis-management by KESPA and then to force people to play on those maps is just stupid. These guys practice as hard as they possibly can analyzing every single thing about a map before playing. Then to have a brand new map (even if its just a map edit) out of the blue is very hard on the emotions.

He also emphasizes on how KESPA appears to be focusing purely on sc2 and forgetting about brood war. I am not sure on the reasoning behind why KESPA would be so stupid, but its entirely up to them as its their organisation. If they are focusing purely on SC2 they should have just made it all SC2, instead of damaging the players emotionally. Also if they did that I am sure they would have seen far better games than were shown in SC2 so far.

Regardless of the past, STORK has shown us that KESPA is a company full of abuse of power. Which is something the current sc2 pro teams have tried to emphasize to the community via the association.

But there is another side to the story. I was going to blog about this yesterday, but today seems to be a better opportunity.

Considering what STAR players in brood war are being paid, some form of power is inevitable. Its the same in any sport, and even finance. I am going to compare things to finance, as thats pretty much all I know.

When you finish school and enter the work force, you are given two choices in the world of finance. You can settle on a small wage and live your life as average Joe for the rest of your life. Or you can take a risk and aim for the riches.

There are two types of wealthy finance people. There are the ones who went to harvard, and basically kissed their dads friends ass to get a job which they are not very good at OR there are those who enter the work force and take a job unpaid for a year then work on a commission/bonus only basis and work their ass off and make good money. The former, are the ones everyone aspires to be, as they never get treated badly, they do almost nothing and in the end they make good scratch. The others, they are the ones who get whipped so badly they go home and cry at night, they starve themselves as they cant afford food, they sleep on a friends couch and they basically go through hell just to achieve their goal. In e-sports we are now slowly starting to separate the two groups, slowly. There are players who just got in because they are in. And there are players who have worked their ass off to get where they are. There is also a 3rd category of naturally talented people however there aren’t that many of them so I will just push that category aside.

The Korean scene right now is starting to separate also. Those who want to be the best, vs those who want to sit back relax and have people fan them with Palm leaves. Its understandable, when you see someone who does virtually nothing get more money and fame than you and at the same time you beat them 3-0 all the time, you are bound to start to get a bit emotional and even mad at how things work out. Then you will start to hunt for what they have. Right, makes sense.

Now let me go back to our two categories before in finance. Those rich, comfortable, lazy guys, do you know their name? I mean, we all know of them that they exist, and thats what we want to be. But do you know their name?

Hows about, I don’t know….. Warren Buffett, do you know his name? Well, he didn’t exactly cry at night, but he wasn’t handed his wealth on a platter. And guess what? He kicks the ass of every lazy rich finance person out there.

George Soros? How about him?

He was part of the holocaust. I don’t really need to go on about anything else with him, other than he bankrupted the bank of England.

Now to Starcraft.

Flash? When he first started he wasn’t very good. Now he is known as “God”… He went through hell (caused by KESPA) and is now the greatest brood war player ever (arguably).

Jaedong? Bisu? Kal? Boxer? even Stork.

These players are great because of the shit they went through to get to the top. They had the will power and staying power to make it work. They didn’t demand foot massages every day and a private jet. They just did what they set out to do, be the best regardless of what stood in their way.

Whilst I don’t agree with what KESPA does entirely, there is a reason it is done. The same reason that I control my staff, and the CEO of any company controls their staff. Because you believe you know whats best to get people to their full potential.

Truth be known, giving someone everything is counter-productive and prevents proper growth. Rewarding them for hard work is generally the way to go. $300k a yr is not a bad reward (re:flash).

My respect goes out to all the gamers out there who struggle to get to their goal but regardless of their struggle they keep trying.

<fine print> I am not a writer. You are welcome to criticize my writing however, I do not have time to go to writing classes. Perhaps when I do have time I will go to those classes.

I hope your day is full of rainbows and butterflies.

<3 FXOBoSs
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-24 13:34:28
May 24 2012 13:16 GMT
#402


Fxboss

Flash? When he first started he wasn’t very good. Now he is known as “God”… He went through hell (caused by KESPA) and is now the greatest brood war player ever (arguably).

Jaedong? Bisu? Kal? Boxer? even Stork.

These players are great because of the shit they went through to get to the top. They had the will power and staying power to make it work. They didn’t demand foot massages every day and a private jet. They just did what they set out to do, be the best regardless of what stood in their way.


If I recall flash was really good because it only took him a few months of practice to qualify in to courage tournament and WMF took flash in because he was just that damn good . Flash aka labour child was the most talented and cheesy player at the time most bisu fan will agree with me especially how flash just proxy his rax in the middle of the map to kill bisu with scvs and marine .

He didn't went through hell because of kespa, he suck it up because it's how the pro scene used to be there is no luxury and easy life style when it comes to pro gaming . You work harder you perform better it's simple as that . I don't know about this but fxboss tend to put his own personal perspective in the situation he comments the most and using the appropriate timing like this just to bash kespa without even having the knowledge of the scene at all.


The Korean scene right now is starting to separate also. Those who want to be the best, vs those who want to sit back relax and have people fan them with Palm leaves. Its understandable, when you see someone who does virtually nothing get more money and fame than you and at the same time you beat them 3-0 all the time, you are bound to start to get a bit emotional and even mad at how things work out. Then you will start to hunt for what they have. Right, makes sense.


Okay I am face palming right now .... Seriously don't comment about the korean scene if you don't know about it deeply .This is like saying the whole time Action who was on estro dedicated his whole life to broodwar and is having hard time winning in sc2 is considered to be a player who is " Relaxing and want to fan themselves with Palm Leaves " . Really ? I don't know about making general statement like this but if you are going to do it it's better if you put yourself in to the player shoes and think about what they are facing right now . I played f*cking bw for 10 years my whole life and now I am being pushed to the limit and if I don't make it in sc2 my whole career is over ?

Now since this whole skill level is reset how am I going to compete with the new guys who are much younger than me . Can I micro the way I did in broodwar for zerg in sc2 ? No I can't because muta's cant be microed in sc2 . So what makes me different from the other player that is playing sc2 ?. Of course I am going to be flipping out when it comes to competing with no namers since the time I invested in broodwar was for nothing .
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
Dagobert
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Netherlands1858 Posts
May 24 2012 13:32 GMT
#403
Oooh, the boy's got balls to say that. Props to him.
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
May 24 2012 13:36 GMT
#404
FXOBoss is making me facepalm. Is this suppose to be some sort of PR or uninformed polemic?
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
May 24 2012 14:10 GMT
#405
On May 24 2012 22:16 Sawamura wrote:
Show nested quote +


Fxboss

Flash? When he first started he wasn’t very good. Now he is known as “God”… He went through hell (caused by KESPA) and is now the greatest brood war player ever (arguably).

Jaedong? Bisu? Kal? Boxer? even Stork.

These players are great because of the shit they went through to get to the top. They had the will power and staying power to make it work. They didn’t demand foot massages every day and a private jet. They just did what they set out to do, be the best regardless of what stood in their way.


If I recall flash was really good because it only took him a few months of practice to qualify in to courage tournament and WMF took flash in because he was just that damn good . Flash aka labour child was the most talented and cheesy player at the time most bisu fan will agree with me especially how flash just proxy his rax in the middle of the map to kill bisu with scvs and marine .


I think he means when Flash first started playing BW at all, like, when he was 8 or whatever.
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
May 24 2012 14:31 GMT
#406
By FXO boss' logic, MVP would be a failure in progaming. Because MVP said in an earlier interview that he would not be able to stand the stress of a hybrid league. Perhaps FXO boss needs to have his players play BW several hours a day so they can be better players in the future.
Meh
Elroi
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden5599 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-24 14:46:33
May 24 2012 14:46 GMT
#407
Rofl I don't understand what he is saying at all, not about the finance sector or anything else...

Flash? When he first started he wasn’t very good. Now he is known as “God”… He went through hell (caused by KESPA) and is now the greatest brood war player ever (arguably).


He should be head coach for a Diablo III team.
"To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong. /watch?v=jfghAzJqAp0
fabiano
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Brazil4644 Posts
May 24 2012 14:50 GMT
#408
I don't understand what hes saying.... looks more like he is saying nothing at all while trying to look good for both sides.
"When the geyser died, a probe came out" - SirJolt
jpak
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States5045 Posts
May 24 2012 14:52 GMT
#409
On May 24 2012 23:50 fabiano wrote:
I don't understand what hes saying.... looks more like he is saying nothing at all while trying to look good for both sides.


Business people trying to be politicians.
CJ Entusman #50! #1 클템 fan TL!
corumjhaelen
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
France6884 Posts
May 24 2012 14:53 GMT
#410
On May 24 2012 23:10 Ribbon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2012 22:16 Sawamura wrote:


Fxboss

Flash? When he first started he wasn’t very good. Now he is known as “God”… He went through hell (caused by KESPA) and is now the greatest brood war player ever (arguably).

Jaedong? Bisu? Kal? Boxer? even Stork.

These players are great because of the shit they went through to get to the top. They had the will power and staying power to make it work. They didn’t demand foot massages every day and a private jet. They just did what they set out to do, be the best regardless of what stood in their way.


If I recall flash was really good because it only took him a few months of practice to qualify in to courage tournament and WMF took flash in because he was just that damn good . Flash aka labour child was the most talented and cheesy player at the time most bisu fan will agree with me especially how flash just proxy his rax in the middle of the map to kill bisu with scvs and marine .


I think he means when Flash first started playing BW at all, like, when he was 8 or whatever.

I remember a Reach interview where it said he had played bw like 2 and half year only, given just before his OSL breakthrough. No doubt he had to work a lot to get to the top, but anyone that remembers his child labor teran day knows what too much pressure can do to such a talented guy.
‎numquam se plus agere quam nihil cum ageret, numquam minus solum esse quam cum solus esset
DidYuhim
Profile Joined September 2011
Ukraine1905 Posts
May 24 2012 15:02 GMT
#411
On May 24 2012 23:50 fabiano wrote:
I don't understand what hes saying.... looks more like he is saying nothing at all while trying to look good for both sides.

Absolutely agreed.

He says a lot of words but they got little sense in them. Well, they got sense but it's not quite related to what Stork said or to KESPA at all.

To sum it up: "I don't agree with KESPA on everything, but I will not agree with Stork".

And I really like how he implies that BW pros got everything while doing nothing. Really, really nice, FXOteam.
Ryo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
8787 Posts
May 24 2012 15:10 GMT
#412
On May 24 2012 22:36 Antisocialmunky wrote:
FXOBoss is making me facepalm. Is this suppose to be some sort of PR or uninformed polemic?

He should just have stayed out of it but I guess he couldn't resist.
영원히 엠비씨게임 히어로 팬.
wassbix
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada499 Posts
May 24 2012 15:11 GMT
#413
is FXO some sc2 guy? Cause he has no idea what he's talking about (neither do I after re-reading that wall of text oO)
Condor Hero
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2931 Posts
May 24 2012 15:17 GMT
#414
On May 25 2012 00:10 Ryo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2012 22:36 Antisocialmunky wrote:
FXOBoss is making me facepalm. Is this suppose to be some sort of PR or uninformed polemic?

He should just have stayed out of it but I guess he couldn't resist.

I kept waiting for him to make a point but it seems like he was just stream of consciousness rambling.
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-24 15:36:08
May 24 2012 15:28 GMT
#415
On May 25 2012 00:02 DidYuhim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2012 23:50 fabiano wrote:
I don't understand what hes saying.... looks more like he is saying nothing at all while trying to look good for both sides.

Absolutely agreed.

He says a lot of words but they got little sense in them. Well, they got sense but it's not quite related to what Stork said or to KESPA at all.

To sum it up: "I don't agree with KESPA on everything, but I will not agree with Stork".

And I really like how he implies that BW pros got everything while doing nothing. Really, really nice, FXOteam.


I....think that he's calling Stork a whiner? Saying that KeSPA's sweatshop conditions are the reason their players are so good and expected to eclispe current SC2 players shortly, and he should suck it up? I think? The "people with rich daddies" in his metaphor are current SC2 pros, with their two-year head start?

I'm honestly not sure.

On May 25 2012 00:11 wassbix wrote:
is FXO some sc2 guy? Cause he has no idea what he's talking about (neither do I after re-reading that wall of text oO)


FXO is one of the largest SC2 teams, and the only foreign-owned Korean team. FXOBoss bought fOu, a low-tier SC2 team, and turned it around and made it a successful team with allegedly high morale, which is why I considered the blog noteworthy enough to post despite it possibly being written by a drunk guy. FXO, incidentally, dropped out of the SC2 player's union (SC2Con) when they tried to fine them for something, effectively killing it, though it hadn't exactly been a major force to begin with and was supposedly biased and corrupt.
Veldril
Profile Joined August 2010
Thailand1817 Posts
May 24 2012 15:47 GMT
#416
I think his point is very simple.

He used Stork's complain to demonstrate how KesPa abuse their players (training, etc.) but at the same time understand that the method KesPa uses develop a really great players. He does not agree with KesPa's method but understand why it is used.

The comparative with the rich guys who are lazy and people who work their ass off is more about the current Korean SC2 players (since the blog is aim for SC2 fan) that their might be some players who got in because of connection, etc.
Without love, we can't see anything. Without love, the truth can't be seen. - Umineko no Naku Koro Ni
blamous
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States377 Posts
May 24 2012 15:53 GMT
#417
Why don't the players just DO it... form their own advisory council, get all the prominent players to join up, both Korean and Foreign, and make their conditions known. And if Kespa wont get on board, you DON'T PLAY, and be absolutely firm in that. THAT is the risk (and it is certainly a risk) that needs to be taken and held fast to for change to take place. There is no Proleague/GSL/MLG/IPL/etc/etc without the PLAYERS. And not just any players... without the best players no one will watch. We have all proven that...
Get YOUR games cast on NuubCast!
wassbix
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada499 Posts
May 24 2012 15:54 GMT
#418
On May 25 2012 00:47 Veldril wrote:
I think his point is very simple.

He used Stork's complain to demonstrate how KesPa abuse their players (training, etc.) but at the same time understand that the method KesPa uses develop a really great players. He does not agree with KesPa's method but understand why it is used.

The comparative with the rich guys who are lazy and people who work their ass off is more about the current Korean SC2 players (since the blog is aim for SC2 fan) that their might be some players who got in because of connection, etc.


Kespa does not train the players? TL really needs a megathread to explain what Kespa does, cause most people that don't live in Korea or followed BW for a significant amount of time has no goddamn clue.
Veldril
Profile Joined August 2010
Thailand1817 Posts
May 24 2012 16:07 GMT
#419
On May 25 2012 00:54 wassbix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2012 00:47 Veldril wrote:
I think his point is very simple.

He used Stork's complain to demonstrate how KesPa abuse their players (training, etc.) but at the same time understand that the method KesPa uses develop a really great players. He does not agree with KesPa's method but understand why it is used.

The comparative with the rich guys who are lazy and people who work their ass off is more about the current Korean SC2 players (since the blog is aim for SC2 fan) that their might be some players who got in because of connection, etc.


Kespa does not train the players? TL really needs a megathread to explain what Kespa does, cause most people that don't live in Korea or followed BW for a significant amount of time has no goddamn clue.


What? Where did I say KesPa does not train their players? I wrote that "... how KesPa abuse their players (training, etc)". That's mean one thing that KesPa abuses their players is how they make them train too hard without considering their physical and mental health. If you are going to say that "KesPa doesn't involve in players' trainings" then that's understandable that I don't know about it.
Without love, we can't see anything. Without love, the truth can't be seen. - Umineko no Naku Koro Ni
fabiano
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Brazil4644 Posts
May 24 2012 16:16 GMT
#420
KeSPA doesn't train players...
"When the geyser died, a probe came out" - SirJolt
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eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
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5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
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