|
was that why he kept asking viewers to recommend his stream?
|
oh how the mighty have fallen
|
On March 30 2012 18:49 storkfan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 18:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 30 2012 18:16 Pholon wrote:On March 30 2012 16:42 Eywa- wrote:
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW. Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects. We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams. On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics. Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long. BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact. Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been. Uhh dude, South Korea is NOT suffering at the moment. Sure, the situation in US and some European countries is bad, but a lot of the world has gone completely past the recession. Like S-Korea has 3,7% unemployment as of 2010. Koreans in general are living a good life, one of the most affordable developed countries and reasonable earnings. Ans so there is a lot of money to be made in E-Sports, the problem is just the massive boom in LoL overwhelming everything else, no? BTW where are the statistics of PL viewers, id be really interestesd in that.
Every country in the world has suffered the financial crisis. SOuth Korea recovers quickly and has done better than most other country, but there have suffered a lot like everybody else. Maybe you noticed, BW started really struggling in 2009.
"Growth moderated to about 4-5% annually between 2003 and 2007. With the global economic downturn in late 2008, South Korean GDP growth slowed to 0.2% in 2009."
source:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ks.html
MAYBE the slow down of the national and global economy in 2009 and the mechanical slow down of any kind of sponsorship for basically anything,, the fact that Starcraft 2 has come out, the legal battle between Kespa and Blizzard that made the future of all BW scene uncertain is a bit more of a factor than a "scandal" that interested a few thousand nerds about a couple of has been players losing on purpose for a pathetic sum of money.
|
OK, yeah, late 2008 and first half of 2009 was bad everywhere in the world. But after that, the economy has been great in a lot of countries, including Korea. So i dont think that is a cause of problems for BW for the last ~33 months
|
On March 30 2012 19:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 18:49 storkfan wrote:On March 30 2012 18:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 30 2012 18:16 Pholon wrote:On March 30 2012 16:42 Eywa- wrote:
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW. Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects. We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams. On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics. Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long. BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact. Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been. Uhh dude, South Korea is NOT suffering at the moment. Sure, the situation in US and some European countries is bad, but a lot of the world has gone completely past the recession. Like S-Korea has 3,7% unemployment as of 2010. Koreans in general are living a good life, one of the most affordable developed countries and reasonable earnings. Ans so there is a lot of money to be made in E-Sports, the problem is just the massive boom in LoL overwhelming everything else, no? BTW where are the statistics of PL viewers, id be really interestesd in that. Every country in the world has suffered the financial crisis. SOuth Korea recovers quickly and has done better than most other country, but there have suffered a lot like everybody else. Maybe you noticed, BW started really struggling in 2009. "Growth moderated to about 4-5% annually between 2003 and 2007. With the global economic downturn in late 2008, South Korean GDP growth slowed to 0.2% in 2009." source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ks.htmlMAYBE the slow down of the national and global economy in 2009 and the mechanical slow down of any kind of sponsorship for basically anything,, the fact that Starcraft 2 has come out, the legal battle between Kespa and Blizzard that made the future of all BW scene uncertain is a bit more of a factor than a "scandal" that interested a few thousand nerds about a couple of has been players losing on purpose for a pathetic sum of money.
While i don't totally disagree with you, i believe you are downplaying that incident quite a bit.
The then-current Bonjwa + a nontrivial amount of other A-teamers doing what they did impact the legitimacy of the scene a lot. Even more so if the amount of money is a "pathetic sum", seeing as their action clearly implied that even that pathetic sum wass more important than the their, or their teams' victory.
|
On March 30 2012 19:32 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 19:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 30 2012 18:49 storkfan wrote:On March 30 2012 18:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 30 2012 18:16 Pholon wrote:On March 30 2012 16:42 Eywa- wrote:
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW. Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects. We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams. On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics. Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long. BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact. Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been. Uhh dude, South Korea is NOT suffering at the moment. Sure, the situation in US and some European countries is bad, but a lot of the world has gone completely past the recession. Like S-Korea has 3,7% unemployment as of 2010. Koreans in general are living a good life, one of the most affordable developed countries and reasonable earnings. Ans so there is a lot of money to be made in E-Sports, the problem is just the massive boom in LoL overwhelming everything else, no? BTW where are the statistics of PL viewers, id be really interestesd in that. Every country in the world has suffered the financial crisis. SOuth Korea recovers quickly and has done better than most other country, but there have suffered a lot like everybody else. Maybe you noticed, BW started really struggling in 2009. "Growth moderated to about 4-5% annually between 2003 and 2007. With the global economic downturn in late 2008, South Korean GDP growth slowed to 0.2% in 2009." source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ks.htmlMAYBE the slow down of the national and global economy in 2009 and the mechanical slow down of any kind of sponsorship for basically anything,, the fact that Starcraft 2 has come out, the legal battle between Kespa and Blizzard that made the future of all BW scene uncertain is a bit more of a factor than a "scandal" that interested a few thousand nerds about a couple of has been players losing on purpose for a pathetic sum of money. While i don't totally disagree with you, i believe you are downplaying that incident quite a bit. The then-current Bonjwa + a nontrivial amount of other A-teamers doing what they did impact the legitimacy of the scene a lot. Even more so if the amount of money is a "pathetic sum", seeing as their action clearly implied that even that pathetic sum wass more important than the their, or their teams' victory.
Of course it's not great, of course it made everybody sad.
Saying that they are responsible for the death of BW when it can be explained by very solid and absolutely logical and structural reasons is just silly. Blame the financial situation, the crisis, the conflict with Kespa, Starcraft 2, a game becoming very old and technologically outdated.
Don't you think it's logical a game starts to decline when young people don't really play it anymore, or at least less and less. Yeah, 2012 kids don't buy Brood War when they want a new video game. Maybe Starcraft 2. Anyway. Savior is reason n°53452664 why BW is struggling. He is as much responsible for the decline of BW as this front line soldier who fucked up something with a grenade or whatever is responsible for the defeat of Waterloo.
If you think Shinhan Bank takes decision about sponsoring with million dollars a cultural or sport industry based on the cheating of a couple of has been players, you are plainly wrong. That's not how it works.
Finally, Savior had been slumping hardcore for two or three years when the scandal was revealed. He was not even an important figure of the scene anymore except for regular "come back" where he would steal a game from a mediocre opponent and everybody would have an erection, before going into a losing streak again.
|
On March 30 2012 19:21 storkfan wrote:
OK, yeah, late 2008 and first half of 2009 was bad everywhere in the world. But after that, the economy has been great in a lot of countries, including Korea. So i dont think that is a cause of problems for BW for the last ~33 months
No but it's one factor. The economy has had a horrible year in 2009, and although it's doing better, the growth is not nearly at the level it was in 2003 - 2008. Check my CIA link again. On top of that 2009 has been the first annus horribile of the BW pro-scene. Since the game has no future in the long term for very obvious reasons, it's unlikely corporations start again to invest money into it. They would rather go to games, sports or activities that will grow over the years.
Simple as that: Brood War couldn't hold for ever. Accept it or not, that's just a fact. There is a zillion reasons why it has started to fall inn 2009, and the Savior scandal is one of these factors, but an xetremely small, unimportant and secundary reason compared to a brutal although momentary slowdown of the economy, an exetremely serious IP conflict with Blizzard, an audience getting smaller and smaller every year and a complete loss of interest by the average gamer with the rise of other games, including SC2.
Leave Savior alone. Seriously. This gross overexageration of the impact of his offence is ridiculous.
|
On March 30 2012 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 19:32 ffreakk wrote:On March 30 2012 19:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 30 2012 18:49 storkfan wrote:On March 30 2012 18:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 30 2012 18:16 Pholon wrote:On March 30 2012 16:42 Eywa- wrote:
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW. Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects. We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams. On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics. Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long. BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact. Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been. Uhh dude, South Korea is NOT suffering at the moment. Sure, the situation in US and some European countries is bad, but a lot of the world has gone completely past the recession. Like S-Korea has 3,7% unemployment as of 2010. Koreans in general are living a good life, one of the most affordable developed countries and reasonable earnings. Ans so there is a lot of money to be made in E-Sports, the problem is just the massive boom in LoL overwhelming everything else, no? BTW where are the statistics of PL viewers, id be really interestesd in that. Every country in the world has suffered the financial crisis. SOuth Korea recovers quickly and has done better than most other country, but there have suffered a lot like everybody else. Maybe you noticed, BW started really struggling in 2009. "Growth moderated to about 4-5% annually between 2003 and 2007. With the global economic downturn in late 2008, South Korean GDP growth slowed to 0.2% in 2009." source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ks.htmlMAYBE the slow down of the national and global economy in 2009 and the mechanical slow down of any kind of sponsorship for basically anything,, the fact that Starcraft 2 has come out, the legal battle between Kespa and Blizzard that made the future of all BW scene uncertain is a bit more of a factor than a "scandal" that interested a few thousand nerds about a couple of has been players losing on purpose for a pathetic sum of money. While i don't totally disagree with you, i believe you are downplaying that incident quite a bit. The then-current Bonjwa + a nontrivial amount of other A-teamers doing what they did impact the legitimacy of the scene a lot. Even more so if the amount of money is a "pathetic sum", seeing as their action clearly implied that even that pathetic sum wass more important than the their, or their teams' victory. Of course it's not great, of course it made everybody sad. Saying that they are responsible for the death of BW when it can be explained by very solid and absolutely logical and structural reasons is just silly. Blame the financial situation, the crisis, the conflict with Kespa, Starcraft 2, a game becoming very old and technologically outdated. Don't you think it's logical a game starts to decline when young people don't really play it anymore, or at least less and less. Yeah, 2012 kids don't buy Brood War when they want a new video game. Maybe Starcraft 2. Anyway. Savior is reason n°53452664 why BW is struggling. He is as much responsible for the decline of BW as this front line soldier who fucked up something with a grenade or whatever is responsible for the defeat of Waterloo. If you think Shinhan Bank takes decision about sponsoring with million dollars a cultural or sport industry based on the cheating of a couple of has been players, you are plainly wrong. That's not how it works. Finally, Savior had been slumping hardcore for two or three years when the scandal was revealed. He was not even an important figure of the scene anymore except for regular "come back" where he would steal a game from a mediocre opponent and everybody would have an erection, before going into a losing streak again.
Well I do agree that this front line solider went kamikaze in to his own barracks and took down a lot of players with him . Looks pretty significant from my point of view .
|
On March 30 2012 19:54 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 30 2012 19:32 ffreakk wrote:On March 30 2012 19:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 30 2012 18:49 storkfan wrote:On March 30 2012 18:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 30 2012 18:16 Pholon wrote:On March 30 2012 16:42 Eywa- wrote:
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW. Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects. We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams. On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics. Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long. BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact. Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been. Uhh dude, South Korea is NOT suffering at the moment. Sure, the situation in US and some European countries is bad, but a lot of the world has gone completely past the recession. Like S-Korea has 3,7% unemployment as of 2010. Koreans in general are living a good life, one of the most affordable developed countries and reasonable earnings. Ans so there is a lot of money to be made in E-Sports, the problem is just the massive boom in LoL overwhelming everything else, no? BTW where are the statistics of PL viewers, id be really interestesd in that. Every country in the world has suffered the financial crisis. SOuth Korea recovers quickly and has done better than most other country, but there have suffered a lot like everybody else. Maybe you noticed, BW started really struggling in 2009. "Growth moderated to about 4-5% annually between 2003 and 2007. With the global economic downturn in late 2008, South Korean GDP growth slowed to 0.2% in 2009." source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ks.htmlMAYBE the slow down of the national and global economy in 2009 and the mechanical slow down of any kind of sponsorship for basically anything,, the fact that Starcraft 2 has come out, the legal battle between Kespa and Blizzard that made the future of all BW scene uncertain is a bit more of a factor than a "scandal" that interested a few thousand nerds about a couple of has been players losing on purpose for a pathetic sum of money. While i don't totally disagree with you, i believe you are downplaying that incident quite a bit. The then-current Bonjwa + a nontrivial amount of other A-teamers doing what they did impact the legitimacy of the scene a lot. Even more so if the amount of money is a "pathetic sum", seeing as their action clearly implied that even that pathetic sum wass more important than the their, or their teams' victory. Of course it's not great, of course it made everybody sad. Saying that they are responsible for the death of BW when it can be explained by very solid and absolutely logical and structural reasons is just silly. Blame the financial situation, the crisis, the conflict with Kespa, Starcraft 2, a game becoming very old and technologically outdated. Don't you think it's logical a game starts to decline when young people don't really play it anymore, or at least less and less. Yeah, 2012 kids don't buy Brood War when they want a new video game. Maybe Starcraft 2. Anyway. Savior is reason n°53452664 why BW is struggling. He is as much responsible for the decline of BW as this front line soldier who fucked up something with a grenade or whatever is responsible for the defeat of Waterloo. If you think Shinhan Bank takes decision about sponsoring with million dollars a cultural or sport industry based on the cheating of a couple of has been players, you are plainly wrong. That's not how it works. Finally, Savior had been slumping hardcore for two or three years when the scandal was revealed. He was not even an important figure of the scene anymore except for regular "come back" where he would steal a game from a mediocre opponent and everybody would have an erection, before going into a losing streak again. Well I do agree that this front line solider went kamikaze in to his own barracks and took down a lot of players with him . Looks pretty significant from my point of view .
Yeah, especially in a battle involving hundred of thousand soldiers from both sides, enormous armies, whole countries at war since 15 years on all Europe. Yeah, the comparison is about right.
Then you have the veterans saying "Oh yeah, we lost because of Capitaine Gerard Trouducul who blew up this barrack" while the reason are of historical scale.
So yeah, inn our comparison, Gerard Trouducul didn't help because he killed 15 of his fellow soldiers and that affected the moral of his company, but the veterans ranting about him afterward are just misunderstaing completely what has really happened because the fact they lived the incident make them grossly overestimating its real importance.
|
$25 for 90 minutes coaching is a nice price imo.
|
On March 30 2012 19:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 19:54 Sawamura wrote:On March 30 2012 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 30 2012 19:32 ffreakk wrote:On March 30 2012 19:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 30 2012 18:49 storkfan wrote:On March 30 2012 18:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 30 2012 18:16 Pholon wrote:On March 30 2012 16:42 Eywa- wrote:
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW. Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects. We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams. On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics. Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long. BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact. Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been. Uhh dude, South Korea is NOT suffering at the moment. Sure, the situation in US and some European countries is bad, but a lot of the world has gone completely past the recession. Like S-Korea has 3,7% unemployment as of 2010. Koreans in general are living a good life, one of the most affordable developed countries and reasonable earnings. Ans so there is a lot of money to be made in E-Sports, the problem is just the massive boom in LoL overwhelming everything else, no? BTW where are the statistics of PL viewers, id be really interestesd in that. Every country in the world has suffered the financial crisis. SOuth Korea recovers quickly and has done better than most other country, but there have suffered a lot like everybody else. Maybe you noticed, BW started really struggling in 2009. "Growth moderated to about 4-5% annually between 2003 and 2007. With the global economic downturn in late 2008, South Korean GDP growth slowed to 0.2% in 2009." source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ks.htmlMAYBE the slow down of the national and global economy in 2009 and the mechanical slow down of any kind of sponsorship for basically anything,, the fact that Starcraft 2 has come out, the legal battle between Kespa and Blizzard that made the future of all BW scene uncertain is a bit more of a factor than a "scandal" that interested a few thousand nerds about a couple of has been players losing on purpose for a pathetic sum of money. While i don't totally disagree with you, i believe you are downplaying that incident quite a bit. The then-current Bonjwa + a nontrivial amount of other A-teamers doing what they did impact the legitimacy of the scene a lot. Even more so if the amount of money is a "pathetic sum", seeing as their action clearly implied that even that pathetic sum wass more important than the their, or their teams' victory. Of course it's not great, of course it made everybody sad. Saying that they are responsible for the death of BW when it can be explained by very solid and absolutely logical and structural reasons is just silly. Blame the financial situation, the crisis, the conflict with Kespa, Starcraft 2, a game becoming very old and technologically outdated. Don't you think it's logical a game starts to decline when young people don't really play it anymore, or at least less and less. Yeah, 2012 kids don't buy Brood War when they want a new video game. Maybe Starcraft 2. Anyway. Savior is reason n°53452664 why BW is struggling. He is as much responsible for the decline of BW as this front line soldier who fucked up something with a grenade or whatever is responsible for the defeat of Waterloo. If you think Shinhan Bank takes decision about sponsoring with million dollars a cultural or sport industry based on the cheating of a couple of has been players, you are plainly wrong. That's not how it works. Finally, Savior had been slumping hardcore for two or three years when the scandal was revealed. He was not even an important figure of the scene anymore except for regular "come back" where he would steal a game from a mediocre opponent and everybody would have an erection, before going into a losing streak again. Well I do agree that this front line solider went kamikaze in to his own barracks and took down a lot of players with him . Looks pretty significant from my point of view . Yeah, especially in a battle involving hundred of thousand soldiers from both sides, enormous armies, whole countries at war since 15 years on all Europe. Yeah, the comparison is about right. Then you have the veterans saying "Oh yeah, we lost because of Capitaine Gerard Trouducul who blew up this barrack" while the reason are of historical scale.
Looks like you don't get it just replace the front line solider with savior and you will see how terrible the situation is when broodwar isn't really fighting a global war right now.Unfortunately your military example doesn't really fit the situation right here when bw isn't really on a enigmatic level of popularity as it's only situated in korea . So every lost is pretty significant in my opinion.
|
On March 30 2012 19:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 19:54 Sawamura wrote:On March 30 2012 19:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 30 2012 19:32 ffreakk wrote:On March 30 2012 19:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 30 2012 18:49 storkfan wrote:On March 30 2012 18:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 30 2012 18:16 Pholon wrote:On March 30 2012 16:42 Eywa- wrote:
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW. Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects. We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams. On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics. Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long. BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact. Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been. Uhh dude, South Korea is NOT suffering at the moment. Sure, the situation in US and some European countries is bad, but a lot of the world has gone completely past the recession. Like S-Korea has 3,7% unemployment as of 2010. Koreans in general are living a good life, one of the most affordable developed countries and reasonable earnings. Ans so there is a lot of money to be made in E-Sports, the problem is just the massive boom in LoL overwhelming everything else, no? BTW where are the statistics of PL viewers, id be really interestesd in that. Every country in the world has suffered the financial crisis. SOuth Korea recovers quickly and has done better than most other country, but there have suffered a lot like everybody else. Maybe you noticed, BW started really struggling in 2009. "Growth moderated to about 4-5% annually between 2003 and 2007. With the global economic downturn in late 2008, South Korean GDP growth slowed to 0.2% in 2009." source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ks.htmlMAYBE the slow down of the national and global economy in 2009 and the mechanical slow down of any kind of sponsorship for basically anything,, the fact that Starcraft 2 has come out, the legal battle between Kespa and Blizzard that made the future of all BW scene uncertain is a bit more of a factor than a "scandal" that interested a few thousand nerds about a couple of has been players losing on purpose for a pathetic sum of money. While i don't totally disagree with you, i believe you are downplaying that incident quite a bit. The then-current Bonjwa + a nontrivial amount of other A-teamers doing what they did impact the legitimacy of the scene a lot. Even more so if the amount of money is a "pathetic sum", seeing as their action clearly implied that even that pathetic sum wass more important than the their, or their teams' victory. Of course it's not great, of course it made everybody sad. Saying that they are responsible for the death of BW when it can be explained by very solid and absolutely logical and structural reasons is just silly. Blame the financial situation, the crisis, the conflict with Kespa, Starcraft 2, a game becoming very old and technologically outdated. Don't you think it's logical a game starts to decline when young people don't really play it anymore, or at least less and less. Yeah, 2012 kids don't buy Brood War when they want a new video game. Maybe Starcraft 2. Anyway. Savior is reason n°53452664 why BW is struggling. He is as much responsible for the decline of BW as this front line soldier who fucked up something with a grenade or whatever is responsible for the defeat of Waterloo. If you think Shinhan Bank takes decision about sponsoring with million dollars a cultural or sport industry based on the cheating of a couple of has been players, you are plainly wrong. That's not how it works. Finally, Savior had been slumping hardcore for two or three years when the scandal was revealed. He was not even an important figure of the scene anymore except for regular "come back" where he would steal a game from a mediocre opponent and everybody would have an erection, before going into a losing streak again. Well I do agree that this front line solider went kamikaze in to his own barracks and took down a lot of players with him . Looks pretty significant from my point of view . Yeah, especially in a battle involving hundred of thousand soldiers from both sides, enormous armies, whole countries at war since 15 years on all Europe. Yeah, the comparison is about right. Then you have the veterans saying "Oh yeah, we lost because of Capitaine Gerard Trouducul who blew up this barrack" while the reason are of historical scale. So yeah, inn our comparison, Gerard Trouducul didn't help because he killed 15 of his fellow soldiers and that affected the moral of his company, but the veterans ranting about him afterward are just misunderstaing completely what has really happened because the fact they lived the incident make them grossly overestimating its real importance.
Savior though, kamikaze-ed and took down 10% of the total amount of soldiers with him. Brood War didn't have hundreds of thousands, we have approximately 100 players active across 12 teams. The morale impact was harder too.
Again, im not saying you are wrong, but I still think you underestimate its importance.
|
On March 30 2012 19:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 19:21 storkfan wrote:
OK, yeah, late 2008 and first half of 2009 was bad everywhere in the world. But after that, the economy has been great in a lot of countries, including Korea. So i dont think that is a cause of problems for BW for the last ~33 months No but it's one factor. The economy has had a horrible year in 2009, and although it's doing better, the growth is not nearly at the level it was in 2003 - 2008. Check my CIA link again. On top of that 2009 has been the first annus horribile of the BW pro-scene. Since the game has no future in the long term for very obvious reasons, it's unlikely corporations start again to invest money into it. They would rather go to games, sports or activities that will grow over the years. Simple as that: Brood War couldn't hold for ever. Accept it or not, that's just a fact. There is a zillion reasons why it has started to fall inn 2009, and the Savior scandal is one of these factors, but an xetremely small, unimportant and secundary reason compared to a brutal although momentary slowdown of the economy, an exetremely serious IP conflict with Blizzard, an audience getting smaller and smaller every year and a complete loss of interest by the average gamer with the rise of other games, including SC2. Leave Savior alone. Seriously. This gross overexageration of the impact of his offence is ridiculous.
Leave Savior alone?Are you serious?
This rat deserves damnation as long as he stays in the SC scene, this way or another.Explanations such as xetremely small, unimportant and secundary reason compared to a brutal although momentary slowdown of the economy are confusing for a simple reason: their significance isn't important, only thing that counts is that he actually did these things,justifying his actions by decreasing their unquestionable impact on the fall of BW is wrong.
Of course, it wasn't only factor as you pointed out earlier, not even main one, but you underestimate the effect of such scandal involving such iconic figure (no matter in what shape he was, he was still pro) in esports environment.
Crime is crime, can't blame other people for remembering about the past when you see him making money off naive people from the source he's been banned from.
|
As all the sc2 foreign pros who coach at ridiculously high prices would say to justify what they are doing, 'supply and demand, if you don't like it, just don't buy it', right?
What i mean by that is, what he is doing has as much morality as what other people are doing.
|
I know what it did was wrong but damn, I never thought people were so bitter about it here.
I don't know man.. get over it ? What's done is done ? 
|
Savior is a match fixer what he did was wrong. but guess what- he stood trial in a court for his actions. He received his punishment, he got banned from pro gaming, destroyed his reputation with which he could charge more for his lessons. So he has paid his debt for his actions. Should he be loved and forgiven now- no that is up for each individual, but he owes nobody nothing, he has paid for everything! So you might not like his past and current actions, but you have no right to say what he can or can not do.
Really, he fucked up big time and not only his career, but other careers and the whole scene. I am not talking about the others go.go, upmagic, luxury etc they were connected with matchfixing just as savior did and so it's their own fault. I am talking about guys who lost their jobs because teams were disbanding, Hiya, Anytime and others.
However what he is doing is not in the slightest wrong right now. I can bet he is still with BW because he loves the game- no one could ever get so great without having great passion for something! (and no the match fixing does not disprove this, he might want to watch the world burn, or he made some stupid decisions or got caught up in some shit he could not get out... everything is possible.)
The thing is while a lot of people are still bitter and angry at him (and rightfully so), his streaming and coaching only helps the scene. He brings more viewers and players to the scene and there is nothing wrong about that. And I highly doubt he is going to teach his students how to convincingly lose games so his presence is not poisonous.
Also that paid fansite thing, as pointed out earlier, is not to milk anyone, but to keep the haters away.
Still if you add all the good and all the bad he has done he is deep in the red for me. But that does not make what he is doing now harmful or not acceptable. If you don't think he deserves making money of the scene- good news you dont have to pay him anything.
|
On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote:
30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs)
players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc.
that being said, you are learning from probably the greatest strategic zerg ever to play bw.
welp at least it's cheaper than idra.
lol idra charges higher. I rather pay for savior. His terran is probably better tha Idra too.
|
On March 30 2012 22:02 Baddieko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote:
30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs)
players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc.
that being said, you are learning from probably the greatest strategic zerg ever to play bw.
welp at least it's cheaper than idra. lol idra charges higher. I rather pay for savior. His terran is probably better tha Idra too.
I don't know about his TvP or TvT but his TvZ is really solid as far as I know.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp0zD9YfWFY
|
On March 30 2012 22:02 HeaDStrong wrote:
The thing is while a lot of people are still bitter and angry at him (and rightfully so), his streaming and coaching only helps the scene. He brings more viewers and players to the scene and there is nothing wrong about that. And I highly doubt he is going to teach his students how to convincingly lose games so his presence is not poisonous.
You're joking aren't you? Viewership has dropped for quite some times, and you expect someone like Savior who drops players out of the scene to bring players back in, as well as viewership?
|
On March 30 2012 22:24 sinistral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 22:02 HeaDStrong wrote:
The thing is while a lot of people are still bitter and angry at him (and rightfully so), his streaming and coaching only helps the scene. He brings more viewers and players to the scene and there is nothing wrong about that. And I highly doubt he is going to teach his students how to convincingly lose games so his presence is not poisonous. You're joking aren't you? Viewership has dropped for quite some times, and you expect someone like Savior who drops players out of the scene to bring players back in, as well as viewership?
No, I am not joking. Again he will not be able to ever repair the damage he did and will never redeem his name. But you have to be blind or completely biased on his past actions not to see that what he is doing now is good for broodwar. If you have arguments that oppose mine please I am willing to listen to them.
I have a feeling that a lot people have some sort of this exaggerated Japanese mentality- "I have dishonored, my family and me! I must go live in a cave and cut my guts open!" Which is ridiculous, counterproductive and taking a moral high-ground from back of the monitor.
I am not advocating that you can do bad things, pay for them and then take pride in them. I can bet savior truly regrets all he did there is no way of telling one or the other way, however, his current actions do not contradict it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
