On April 17 2012 03:46 SiroKO wrote: It's good since this will improve the development of Starcraft 2 in South Korea, but I don't expect much from the current BW teams.
The best War3 players aren't the best Starcraft 2 players, just like the best BW players weren't the best War3 players when a few of them switched... Grubby, Tod, etc... were all outplaying Stephano so bad that he couldn't even take one game from them... In fact, they were outplaying him far more than Stephano is currently outplaying both of them in Starcraft 2...
There's a correlation between skill in BW/War3 and skill in Starcraft 2, but it's not a 100% causation...
Some BW players might do very well, and the best/younger they are, the higher their chances of succeeding in Starcraft 2 are. But claiming that Jaedong/Flash would be head and shoulders above everyone in Starcraft 2 is absolutely ridiculous... Maybe they are some gems among the current A teamers of BW, I'm not denying that... But I'm not expecting any of these players to destroy the current pro scene, at the very best a few of them will join the circle of the current champions (MVP, DRG, Nestea, MC...)...
+1. Finally someone out there realizes that everything in BW won't carry over to SC2.
On April 17 2012 01:59 BlackGosu wrote: The reason why most of you don't like sc2 is mainly the way battle.net is designed. The current design is just brutal for casual players. Even though BW is mechanically harder than sc2, it is far more welcoming than sc2 is. sc2 just makes people ragequit forever, not everyone has the mentality of a progamer.
I laughed so hard at this.
? which is why no one plays sc2 anymore?
look at the trend, koreans only play LoL. does that mean LoL is more balanced and higher skill ceiling than bw?
If SC2 was really such a good game, we BW fans didnt mind waiting for its improvement in technical issues. But quite a lot of us choose to stay with the older game even the sequel is released, why? Simply because the sequel is disappointing in gameplay, which I think is of paramount importance for a game.
PS: Please dont say that BW fans havent tried SC2 anymore, I believe most BW fans had given SC2 a chance. Back in 2010, BW fans were the most eagerly-waiting group of people longing for the release of SC2. With the huge success from BW, BW fans just couldnt wait to see how exciting/compelling SC2 could be, how many attentions it could draw, many many other wishful thinkings.. But the result is just disappointing.
And for those who want to defend SC2 and say how superiour it is compared to BW, I'd suggest you to spend some times on BW first. You need to know both games to certain extent before making comparison between them.
i fucking hate starcraft 2, literally there's no redeeming quality to it in my eyes, but yet i play it because i have nothing better to do and I am good at it.
that said, i can't imagine most of you guys have good reasons for not liking sc2.
so please, list a few.
I don't think it's fun to play. Considering that the sole purpose of a game is to entertain and provide fun is there really any other reason needed? For that matter, why do you even care if some people don't like Starcraft 2?
i came to see if anyone had real opinions or if you were all just hive minding it up
"sc2 sux so bad!!!"
I think there were more elaborations on why sc2 "sux so bad" on this website than there ever was on any other game. It even started when the game was in its infancy, you might want to look up some very old news article, and a good portion of sc2 general.
Debates about the merits of the two games aside, this mixed PL idea is just terrible. Not only will there be less time for players to practice BW , but the introduction of SC2 to most of the BW fans will be when it a) interrupts their BW team match (like LoL at IPL3, except worse. Imagine if it decided some result in the SC2 tournament.) b) likely comes with all sorts of production errors and technical glitches, as the PL crew is inexperienced at producing SC2 content (not to mention the possibility of a B.net connection error). c) is played badly, by two people who have only played for a year or so, and 1/2 time at most.
I expect a backlash the instant a team loses a match while winning most of the BW sets.
Why does it seem that noone (both SC2 and BW fans) likes the "mixed match" idea lol ? I really like this new format and I'm eagerly waiting for it. I like weird things and this new format is weird enough for me
On April 17 2012 02:34 Savant wrote: The most enraging thing about all this is...SC2 didn't earn its popularity. If it had been named differently, and Blizzard hadn't poured loads of money to milk the SC brand to jumpstart their own ESPORTS mantra, if then it had spontaneously developed its own system of leagues and sponsors, I wouldn't feel in the least bit offended. But they did, and I'm offended.
So SC2 guys,... Stop talking up SC2: all of us have played it and concluded it's inferior. Stop telling us to wait and hope it gets better: bw became big because we recognized its merit immediately Stop licking your lips at our players in front of us: that adds insult to injury, intentional or not
Recognize that for your game to succeed we had to get screwed hard. Respect that fact, realize we're never going to see eye to eye, and go cheer for bw players switching back in the SC2 forums, where you can be safely ignored.
Flawed because you somehow think BW was released and everyone jumped on board immediately. Didn't happen, it had to build, and somehow forgetting that BW had an alpha stage called "Vanilla SC" that had glaring holes that would never facilitate the e-sports scene is where you really went off the tracks.
Quake 1 players thought Quake 3 was inferior Tribes 1 players thought Tribes 2 was inferior (my point here is that both games ultimately succeeded the predecessor, but ultimately with a group of "holdout" players always present)
you're just part of the same group of people that can't let go of the old and embrace the new, because it's too painful for you.
not a statement that SC2 is at the level of BW, but it certainly can and more likely will surpass BW.
On April 17 2012 02:34 Savant wrote: The most enraging thing about all this is...SC2 didn't earn its popularity. If it had been named differently, and Blizzard hadn't poured loads of money to milk the SC brand to jumpstart their own ESPORTS mantra, if then it had spontaneously developed its own system of leagues and sponsors, I wouldn't feel in the least bit offended. But they did, and I'm offended.
So SC2 guys,... Stop talking up SC2: all of us have played it and concluded it's inferior. Stop telling us to wait and hope it gets better: bw became big because we recognized its merit immediately Stop licking your lips at our players in front of us: that adds insult to injury, intentional or not
Recognize that for your game to succeed we had to get screwed hard. Respect that fact, realize we're never going to see eye to eye, and go cheer for bw players switching back in the SC2 forums, where you can be safely ignored.
Flawed because you somehow think BW was released and everyone jumped on board immediately. Didn't happen, it had to build, and somehow forgetting that BW had an alpha stage called "Vanilla SC" that had glaring holes that would never facilitate the e-sports scene is where you really went off the tracks.
Quake 1 players thought Quake 3 was inferior Tribes 1 players thought Tribes 2 was inferior
you're just part of the same group of people that can't let go of the old and embrace the new, because it's too painful for you.
not a statement that SC2 is at the level of BW, but it certainly can and more likely will surpass BW.
On April 17 2012 01:59 BlackGosu wrote: The reason why most of you don't like sc2 is mainly the way battle.net is designed. The current design is just brutal for casual players. Even though BW is mechanically harder than sc2, it is far more welcoming than sc2 is. sc2 just makes people ragequit forever, not everyone has the mentality of a progamer.
I laughed so hard at this.
? which is why no one plays sc2 anymore?
look at the trend, koreans only play LoL. does that mean LoL is more balanced and higher skill ceiling than bw?
If SC2 was really such a good game, we BW fans didnt mind waiting for its improvement in technical issues. But quite a lot of us choose to stay with the older game even the sequel is released, why? Simply because the sequel is disappointing in gameplay, which I think is of paramount importance for a game.
PS: Please dont say that BW fans havent tried SC2 anymore, I believe most BW fans had given SC2 a chance. Back in 2010, BW fans were the most eagerly-waiting group of people longing for the release of SC2. With the huge success from BW, BW fans just couldnt wait to see how exciting/compelling SC2 could be, how many attentions it could draw, many many other wishful thinkings.. But the result is just disappointing.
And for those who want to defend SC2 and say how superiour it is compared to BW, I'd suggest you to spend some times on BW first. You need to know both games to certain extent before making comparison between them.
i fucking hate starcraft 2, literally there's no redeeming quality to it in my eyes, but yet i play it because i have nothing better to do and I am good at it.
that said, i can't imagine most of you guys have good reasons for not liking sc2.
so please, list a few.
I don't think it's fun to play. Considering that the sole purpose of a game is to entertain and provide fun is there really any other reason needed? For that matter, why do you even care if some people don't like Starcraft 2?
i came to see if anyone had real opinions or if you were all just hive minding it up
"sc2 sux so bad!!!"
I think there were more elaborations on why sc2 "sux so bad" on this website than there ever was on any other game. It even started when the game was in its infancy, you might want to look up some very old news article, and a good portion of sc2 general.
[Dustin Browder is sitting at his computer answering fansite questions from http://scsuperbestfriends.com/, declaiming every word out loud as he’s hammering away at his keyboard]
Dustin Browder: We have this awesome awesome engine, it can do anything…
[In walks David Kim, with a printout of the latest Q&A Batch in his hands]
David Kim: Hey Dustin they’re asking about moving shot again, what should I tell them? Dustin Browder: Tell them we’re working on it. David Kim: But that’s what we said last time. Dustin Browder: Well tell them it’s a balance issue. David Kim: We did that one too. Dustin Browder: …
Dustin Browder looks annoyed and scratches his beard
Dustin Browder: Have the lore guys come up with something.
On April 17 2012 04:01 kamikami wrote: Why does it seem that noone (both SC2 and BW fans) likes the "mixed match" idea lol ? I really like this new format and I'm eagerly waiting for it. I like weird things and this new format is weird enough for me
I think it'll just be jarring.
I'd rather if they'd wanted to go mixed they did some kind of tournament where teams had two lives or had two separate series, once in SC2 and once in BW or something. Perhaps not in tradition with proleague format, but the proposed changes hardly are either.
On April 17 2012 04:01 MrFatalistic wrote: Flawed because you somehow think BW was released and everyone jumped on board immediately. Didn't happen, it had to build, and somehow forgetting that BW had an alpha stage called "Vanilla SC" that had glaring holes that would never facilitate the e-sports scene is where you really went off the tracks.
Quake 1 players thought Quake 3 was inferior Tribes 1 players thought Tribes 2 was inferior
you're just part of the same group of people that can't let go of the old and embrace the new, because it's too painful for you.
not a statement that SC2 is at the level of BW, but it certainly can and more likely will surpass BW.
Proof?
The last comment is more opinion than fact. Back then I couldn't see SC getting better than vanilla (which was still a better RTS IMO than anything to date) but it did...
On April 17 2012 02:34 Savant wrote: The most enraging thing about all this is...SC2 didn't earn its popularity. If it had been named differently, and Blizzard hadn't poured loads of money to milk the SC brand to jumpstart their own ESPORTS mantra, if then it had spontaneously developed its own system of leagues and sponsors, I wouldn't feel in the least bit offended. But they did, and I'm offended.
So SC2 guys,... Stop talking up SC2: all of us have played it and concluded it's inferior. Stop telling us to wait and hope it gets better: bw became big because we recognized its merit immediately Stop licking your lips at our players in front of us: that adds insult to injury, intentional or not
Recognize that for your game to succeed we had to get screwed hard. Respect that fact, realize we're never going to see eye to eye, and go cheer for bw players switching back in the SC2 forums, where you can be safely ignored.
Flawed because you somehow think BW was released and everyone jumped on board immediately. Didn't happen, it had to build, and somehow forgetting that BW had an alpha stage called "Vanilla SC" that had glaring holes that would never facilitate the e-sports scene is where you really went off the tracks.
Quake 1 players thought Quake 3 was inferior Tribes 1 players thought Tribes 2 was inferior (my point here is that both games ultimately succeeded the predecessor, but ultimately with a group of "holdout" players always present)
you're just part of the same group of people that can't let go of the old and embrace the new, because it's too painful for you.
not a statement that SC2 is at the level of BW, but it certainly can and more likely will surpass BW.
You are in the group that doesn't understand what everyone has been saying over and over again.
It is not nostalgia, its not resistance to changes. Before YOU even knew what an SCV was, many, if not all, BW fans were EAGERLY WAITING FOR SC2. NO ONE was more hyped for SC2 than BW fans, no one.
So before people keep spitting shit like that, think before you fucking post.
btw, the 'you's aren't directly meant towards you MrFatalistic, you just happened to be the quoted one.
On April 17 2012 04:01 MrFatalistic wrote: Flawed because you somehow think BW was released and everyone jumped on board immediately. Didn't happen, it had to build, and somehow forgetting that BW had an alpha stage called "Vanilla SC" that had glaring holes that would never facilitate the e-sports scene is where you really went off the tracks.
Quake 1 players thought Quake 3 was inferior Tribes 1 players thought Tribes 2 was inferior
you're just part of the same group of people that can't let go of the old and embrace the new, because it's too painful for you.
not a statement that SC2 is at the level of BW, but it certainly can and more likely will surpass BW.
Proof?
The last comment is more opinion than fact. Back then I couldn't see SC getting better than vanilla (which was still a better RTS IMO than anything to date) but it did...
Sorry, I just can't get enough of these "Things will happen this way or that way" comments and how people act like they know everything that's going on at the moment and things that will happen in the near future. It's just that I've been seeing so any of them lately =/
On April 17 2012 02:34 Savant wrote: I'm a bitter BW fan, and I hate it when SC2 fans come into the bw forums to hype up sc2 while we watch pro bw collapse.
We're about to lose a really close friend we've loved and spent years with, so let us mope and make snarky remarks about SC2 in peace, in the last corner of the site we have left after the SC2 invasion (this site used to be all about Brood War).
We have a right to complain about SC2 you know why? Because Broodwar didn't die a natural death. We were fine for a solid decade, and still going strong. Suddenly Blizzard comes along, makes a completely different game, slaps Starcraft on the label, markets the hell out of it, and creates a counterfeit to our pro leagues that draws away from our pool of players and potential recruits. For everything we liked about bw, there's a prettier, more accessible, hipper version, so naturally few will think about picking up playing or watching bw because it's outdated. Sponsors would never consider expanding pro bw because of this, and without sponsors pro bw dies, along with the playing community. This is tragic because I believe us bw fans have enjoyed playing and watching our game vastly more than SC2 players ever will, and they don't have a clue.
The most enraging thing about all this is...SC2 didn't earn its popularity. If it had been named differently, and Blizzard hadn't poured loads of money to milk the SC brand to jumpstart their own ESPORTS mantra, if then it had spontaneously developed its own system of leagues and sponsors, I wouldn't feel in the least bit offended. But they did, and I'm offended.
So SC2 guys,... Stop talking up SC2: all of us have played it and concluded it's inferior. Stop telling us to wait and hope it gets better: bw became big because we recognized its merit immediately Stop licking your lips at our players in front of us: that adds insult to injury, intentional or not
Recognize that for your game to succeed we had to get screwed hard. Respect that fact, realize we're never going to see eye to eye, and go cheer for bw players switching back in the SC2 forums, where you can be safely ignored.
This sums up the situation really well. BW never fell. It's as big as ever in Korea, and the foreigner scene never really existed. Those who moved on to SC2 were top foreigners and top korean amateurs, and the reason why they did it was because it was a good opportunity. They knew that they had a advantage from playing BW, so they looked at SC2 for the opportunity to earn money or fame. They were simply not good enough to make it as a BW pro, so they looked elsewhere. The reason why KESPA is doing this change is because they have lost the sponsors. So why have they lost the sponsors? I mean, the public is still supporting BW. The answer to that question is greed. The sponsors are looking at this SC2 bubble that blizzard have created, and they want to be a part of it. They are pushing KESPA to transition to SC2, because then they could reach a bigger audience.
The big question is: Will this backfire?
I think it's 50/50. It's pretty obvious that in terms of the korean spectators, it will backfire, but if they can gain foreigners it will be worth it. But will the foreigners stay? I personally don't think so. The korean BW scene was a miracle, and the game have reached a cult status. I don't think any other game will ever accomplish that.
From a business point of view it makes atleast some sense to switch to SC2 and whether it's a worth successor is irrelevant. Hopefully this new format will flop enough that they will be forced to abandon SC2. I have nothing against SC2, but when the BW scene still is popular, them switching doesn't sit well with me.
On April 17 2012 04:13 OpticalShot wrote: For all the people who still think it's a good idea to mix the games: what if it REALLY happens, then evolves into something truly epic? My latest blog: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=328397
... I guess that's all I'm going to leave here. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but at this moment I think that's highly unlikely.
Actually if they had Unreal tournament 2k4 or Quake 3 in one of those sets I would be one of those fans who will be right there waiting for the game . It will be so epic to relive these kind of moments again .
lol I'm likely much older than you, hence I don't need to act like a elitist and spout off about knowing what an SCV is. I've played 1.0 SC to 1.11 BW where I stopped playing as much only because the people I played with faded away, about the time, you started playing probably, but I won't step to the same of accusing you of knowing nothing.
You think the Q1 players didn't play Q3? - they did and decided that rocket jumping wasn't quite the same (or whatever it was, I'm pathetic at quake) and decided it must suck. Some stuck with Quake1, others went on to create promode which was essentially Q1 inside of Q3, and others went in a different path with RA3. I know for a fact that RA3 kept most of the new stuff than the reimplementing old stuff and was still more popular than promode.
it's still what I said, reluctance to accept change and things that ultimately do just get better but it takes time, you people just dismiss it and put your fingers in your ears.
@fabiano Oh and how the Tribes 1 guys were waiting for Tribes 2 only to be dissapointed that it actually was not Tribes 1. Oh and how the CS guys were waiting for CSS only to be dissapointed that it actually was not CS. Oh and how the Halo 1 guys were waiting for Halo 2 only to be dissapointed that it actually was not Halo 1. ...
Only because you were once hyped that does not make you special. Most of eny Fanbase are first hyped for the sequel of thair beloved game only to then stand in the way of all change because they noticed that the sequell would be "different" and would bring tham that change they didn´t want. No matter how meny of you say "It is not nostalgia, its not resistance to changes. Before YOU even knew what an SCV was, many, if not all, BW fans were EAGERLY WAITING FOR SC2. NO ONE was more hyped for SC2 than BW fans, no one." It still does not change the fact that it is exactly that, resistance to changes.
In all honesty though: i never saw enyone who played both games enough to know them and did not say that BroodWar was the better one, also i did not see enyone who played both games enough to know and did not say that there is a chance SC2 could evolve to be a worthy replacement if we only work on it.
And to all those who say "I PLAYED THE WHOLE BETA SO I KNOW!!!!!" The game changed more then SC1 changed as BW came out, The community is finally managing to get what we need from Blizzard, the Races get balanced way better and there are so meny more projects and ideas in the coming like the 6M1HYG movement and the Start game from Replay tool.
I don´t think eny of the SC2 fans would have ever said a negative or provocative word in this thread if you hardcore BW fans did not start the whole thing off with comments of the likes of:
I prefer BW dying than getting replaced by a "successor", so it's memory is not tainted. That's why I'm rooting for LoL (a game that I dislike) rather than SC2. It does have much higher chances of becoming big than SC2, considering LoL is #1 played game in Korea and SC2 doesn't even make it to the top ten, probably not even top 15.
On April 17 2012 04:19 MrFatalistic wrote: lol I'm likely much older than you, hence I don't need to act like a elitist and spout off about knowing what an SCV is. I've played 1.0 SC to 1.11 BW where I stopped playing as much only because the people I played with faded away, about the time, you started playing probably, but I won't step to the same of accusing you of knowing nothing.
You think the Q1 players didn't play Q3? - they did and decided that rocket jumping wasn't quite the same (or whatever it was, I'm pathetic at quake) and decided it must suck. Some stuck with Quake1, others went on to create promode and others went in a different path with RA3. I know for a fact that RA3 kept most of the new stuff than the reimplementing old stuff and was still more popular than promode.
it's still what I said, reluctance to accept change and things that ultimately do just get better but it takes time, you people just dismiss it and put your fingers in your ears.
Correct me if I am wrong, but is your logic:
-You changed to SC2, and you are not nostalgic. -Therefore, everybody who did not change must be nostalgic.
Well I guess with the give SC2 time argument, we have one more year and we can start comparing SC2 to Boxer's proleagues days in 2001. Both 3 years out of the box, and for BW, the battles tended to have large lulls because they didn't know how to macro. But those micro battles...
EPT
