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On April 17 2012 01:54 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 01:52 TheDougler wrote:On April 17 2012 01:50 Zergneedsfood wrote:
SC Vanilla was legit man.
When Tassadar crashed into the Overmind......man that was better than all of SC2's campaign. Well that's fair. I don't think anybody here is gonna argue that. Fuck, now you got me all bummed out thinking about how SC2's campaign has been so bad. Hopefully HOTS turns it around but I'm skeptical at best. Edit: and ZoW is clearly trolling Are you kidding? ZoW's been the only SC2 fan with a coherent argument in this entire thread. I actually know ZoW, and despite his semi-nonsensical post, he's the only fan that's been able to change my mind on SC2 related subjects. + Show Spoiler +That hurts like a bitch doesn't it ZoW? To get called an SC2 fan? Oh God my chest hurts just from typing that.
Valiant meta-trolling effort. It's like you want people to come in here and say "you see, you see!" so that you can tell them how wrong you think they are. Waste of time imo.
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On April 17 2012 01:59 BlackGosu wrote:
The reason why most of you don't like sc2 is mainly the way battle.net is designed. The current design is just brutal for casual players. Even though BW is mechanically harder than sc2, it is far more welcoming than sc2 is. sc2 just makes people ragequit forever, not everyone has the mentality of a progamer.
I laughed so hard at this.
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On April 17 2012 01:48 Marti wrote:Show nested quote +
With BW, I think the possibility of a video game being taken seriously as a sport dies. For a long time I could argue that BW professionals were in fact athletes (without even devaluing it by calling them 'cyber-athletes'). Playing ten hours a day, reasonably stable expectations of the scene, big stages and regular audiences who were willing to pass up newer graphics for the possibility of a video game being a sport. Now, all we have is ESPORTS: advertisements for games that will last only as long as the developers produce content for them. In four more years when hopefully the last SC2 expansion has been out for two years, a new game with better graphics will be out and "ESPORTS" fans will move on to that game. If the big argument for new players is that BW has ugly graphics, think how ugly SC2 is gonna look compared to what we can make in 2016! I mean, it doesn't even have good aesthetic direction right now, it just has polygons and lighting effects. The whole game looks dark and gross, WC4 will easily be better than that. Or maybe it won't even be a Blizzard game, considering how much they've lost themselves in the corporate superstructure. Look forward to a lot of triple A titles with no heart from Blizz.
I don't really take video games seriously. I took BW seriously because to me it was an actual sport, about dedication to the game and excitement within the game. The surrounding cameras, money and tournaments weren't really what made it a sport, they were symptoms of it being a sport. What made it a sport were the people who played it intensely without even needing that monetary incentive. The people who were willing to live off ramen in a tiny apartment with eight other guys because they loved the game and people loved watching them play. A huge difference between them and the people who are pretty good at games in general and want a little extra money in their spare time for playing online tournies, or something to do for a year while they're at a transition stage in the life, planning their career or next level education simultaneously. Why should I want to watch people like that play? I'm not a kid anymore, it doesn't amaze me that there are a lot of people doing a thing or make me think I should be a part of it. I don't fantasize about crowd surfing or being in a huge audience. There has to be an actual value within the activity itself that goes beyond the many superficial tiers of novelty and socializing and community.
I had to quote this because it's just a really really good post that's probably gonna get ignored because it's in spoilers. Also do you seriously want to compare your tesl on some random tv channel to this ? This first TV game i liked to was played during Patch 1.06 and hosted by Tooniverse. ( link : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=262530 ) I have seen SC2 games on tv in france too, except it's on some random crappy tv channel that you have to pay extra to watch, and this is in 2012 when you have streams and WEBTVs and information goes much faster than twenty years ago, are you seriously trying to imply that SC2 will ever be half as popular as BW ( which at some point was bigger than baseball ) ? When a foreign tv channel hosts a tournament like onegamenet does then we can compare BW and SC2 ( while keeping in mind that BW didn't have any of what we currently have, streams, a past history of people playing video games for money (( quake cs 1.6 brood war , ever heard of the cpl for instance ? )), wayyyy less stereotypes about gamers and gaming in general etc etc ... ). Also this " give it time " argument and " SC2 didn't have much time to develop " needs to die. SC2 progamers don't have 1 year of experience, they have the one year of starcraft 2 plus 13 years of brood war plus the 6 of warcraft 3. SC2 progamers didn't have to come up with things like " macro ", the concept was already there in the first place, and the mechanical requirement to macro are stupidly low in this game. The tournament organizers didn't have 1 years of esports, they had this, plus the experiences of the failures and success of some other events such as the CPL. They have been in the buisness since 2000, they know how to promote a game, they know how to host a proper tournament. The game in itself doesn't " need more time " because time won't magically fix anything at all. Also would people stop it with this claim that vanilla SC was absolutly god aweful and BW somehow fixed everything and made it a wonderful game ?
This please. SC vanilla only existed for 6 months for god's sake. It pretty much never existed as a competitive game. WoL has already 2 years and was designed from the very beginning to be an esport (not that it succeded at it). Besides, SC vanilla had some holes in units roles. The medic, for instance, was a very important and trivial addition considering stimpack took 25% of marines life every use and only lasted few seconds. The lurker was added to counter early bio pushes because they would become almost unstopabble with the medic. The DT was introduced mostly because it was a cool unit and to improve harass potential. The corsair and valkyrie were introduced to counter mutalisks.
The problems of SC2 have nothing to do with holes in units roles. In fact, there are way too many units that only serve a very specific role and hard counter each other. In other words, I don't see how an expansion that only adds a couple units to each race will solve the problems SC2 is facing now. The comparison between sc vanilla and WoL is completely stupid.
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On April 17 2012 02:00 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 01:54 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 17 2012 01:52 TheDougler wrote:On April 17 2012 01:50 Zergneedsfood wrote:
SC Vanilla was legit man.
When Tassadar crashed into the Overmind......man that was better than all of SC2's campaign. Well that's fair. I don't think anybody here is gonna argue that. Fuck, now you got me all bummed out thinking about how SC2's campaign has been so bad. Hopefully HOTS turns it around but I'm skeptical at best. Edit: and ZoW is clearly trolling Are you kidding? ZoW's been the only SC2 fan with a coherent argument in this entire thread. I actually know ZoW, and despite his semi-nonsensical post, he's the only fan that's been able to change my mind on SC2 related subjects. + Show Spoiler +That hurts like a bitch doesn't it ZoW? To get called an SC2 fan? Oh God my chest hurts just from typing that. Valiant meta-trolling effort. It's like you want people to come in here and say "you see, you see!" so that you can tell them how wrong you think they are. Waste of time imo.
It's not a troll if I give it away in a spoiler.
If ZoW and I want to run around and spew random funny stuff to laugh at later when we go eat some hamburgers together, that's fine with me.
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On April 17 2012 01:54 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 01:52 TheDougler wrote:On April 17 2012 01:50 Zergneedsfood wrote:
SC Vanilla was legit man.
When Tassadar crashed into the Overmind......man that was better than all of SC2's campaign. Well that's fair. I don't think anybody here is gonna argue that. Fuck, now you got me all bummed out thinking about how SC2's campaign has been so bad. Hopefully HOTS turns it around but I'm skeptical at best. Edit: and ZoW is clearly trolling Are you kidding? ZoW's been the only SC2 fan with a coherent argument in this entire thread. I actually know ZoW, and despite his semi-nonsensical post, he's the only fan that's been able to change my mind on SC2 related subjects. + Show Spoiler +That hurts like a bitch doesn't it ZoW? To get called an SC2 fan? Oh God my chest hurts just from typing that.
i have always loved sc2, i think you have me mixed up with someone else. in fact i am disgusted that you would equate me with your league of elitist thugs
+ Show Spoiler +we may have to reconcile our friendship later, but i'll forgive you cuz you so qt <3
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On April 17 2012 01:45 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 01:27 Kevan wrote:On April 17 2012 00:13 Kiett wrote:On April 17 2012 00:07 hugman wrote:On April 16 2012 23:45 white_horse wrote:On April 16 2012 23:04 NMxSardines wrote:
I don't like how people just simply hate on the one of the best video games of all time, that is Starcraft 2, - there is simply no other multiplayer competitive game to come out in recent years that can measure up to it, in my opinion. People just simply say that Starcraft 2 is worse without stating why because of their obvious bias towards Brood War - without even giving Starcraft 2 some time to prove itself while Brood War has lasted through an expansion pack and a whole decade.
And yes, Brood War will always remain a novelty - there is NOTHING you can do about it and it is NOT Blizzard's fault. Starcraft 2 is a SEQUEL, deal with it. Saying that SC2 "needs more time" is a euphemism for "this game isn't as good as it should have been". If SC2 isn't exciting for non-gamers now, what makes you think that it's going to be exciting for them later? BW generated excitement and mainstream popularity in korea before it became "developed" - because it was a great spectator sport. BW didn't take 12 years to become as exciting as it is now; it was just as exciting 12 years ago. SC2 fans apparantly do not know this. In terms of raw popularity and mainstream interest among a populace, BW is king. You can cite total cash pools, the number of SC2 tournaments, and continue making excuses of "giving it more time" - the reality is that SC2 is lagging in korea and among the foreign community it has been unable to generate any kind of excitement to people other than SC2 players. If the current state of SC2 is success to members of that community, nobody from the BW side is trying to burst your bubbles. What makes people here angry is that people are taking a game that they see as inferior and making stupid comments like "I wish jaedong would switch over" or "BW is dead". The biggest problem with SC2 is that it is a terrible spectator sport. It's intense for the professionals who play it and the amateurs who watch it - and thats where it ends. If SC2 wanted to get on the scale of BW (televised games, draft system, centralized oversight, etc) it would need a total overhaul of the game and that isn't going to happen with time or expansions. I see people saying "I've never even played SC2 but I love watching it" all the time. It might not be as big in the west as BW is / was in Korea, but it's still by far the most successful esport in the west, ever. Here in Sweden we've had our biggest tabloid put their own SC2 stream right on their front page and Dreamhack held their last finals in damn ice hockey arena. No, not really. I'm not sure but aren't there a lot more tournaments, cups and prizemoney in SC2 than LoL? Just because it has a bigger playerbase/viewerbase at the moment doesn't make it a more successful ESPORT or even close. I could be wrong though since I don't follow LoL. It is sad that BW is dying but that's one of the problems with ESPORTS, that games don't last. The original ESPORTS like BW, Quake and CS are dying and the new games that are there to replace them are not nearly as good. But SC2 is still better than most if not all of them. Please enlighten us on how SC2 is better as a spectator sport than BW, Quake, and CS? (notice I am not using that demented word 'Esport')
"The original ESPORTS like BW, Quake and CS are dying and the new games that are there to replace them are not nearly as good. But SC2 is still better than most if not all of them."
I highlighted some words for you to make it easier for you to understand. If you still don't get it then what I meant was that SC2 might be worse than the old ESPORTS but better than most if not all of the new ones.
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On April 17 2012 01:59 BlackGosu wrote:
The reason why most of you don't like sc2 is mainly the way battle.net is designed. The current design is just brutal for casual players. Even though BW is mechanically harder than sc2, it is far more welcoming than sc2 is. sc2 just makes people ragequit forever, not everyone has the mentality of a progamer.
Oh crap this makes total sense. And here I was getting all worked up over the units, game design, and community...
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On April 17 2012 02:03 ZoW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 01:54 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 17 2012 01:52 TheDougler wrote:On April 17 2012 01:50 Zergneedsfood wrote:
SC Vanilla was legit man.
When Tassadar crashed into the Overmind......man that was better than all of SC2's campaign. Well that's fair. I don't think anybody here is gonna argue that. Fuck, now you got me all bummed out thinking about how SC2's campaign has been so bad. Hopefully HOTS turns it around but I'm skeptical at best. Edit: and ZoW is clearly trolling Are you kidding? ZoW's been the only SC2 fan with a coherent argument in this entire thread. I actually know ZoW, and despite his semi-nonsensical post, he's the only fan that's been able to change my mind on SC2 related subjects. + Show Spoiler +That hurts like a bitch doesn't it ZoW? To get called an SC2 fan? Oh God my chest hurts just from typing that. i have always loved sc2, i think you have me mixed up with someone else. in fact i am disgusted that you would equate me with your league of elitist thugs + Show Spoiler +we may have to reconcile our friendship later, but i'll forgive you cuz you so qt <3
I'll let you ron me for a 4 point chicken hand if that makes it all better.
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So I'm a fan of BW and SC2 and of course I'm sad to see BW die just like everyone else, but I can accept it and easily move on to something with a similar premise that doesn't matter if it's a better game or not, it's good enough and it isn't stagnant, it's still going forwards and has a future, so I'm perfectly okay with seeing the new opportunities that come to it when the inevitable happens.
I'm also glad we get to filter out some of these narrow-minded elitists. yay
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Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 01:56 Dodgin wrote:
I'm not sure why I keep coming back to read this thread, the arguments are so pointless and rehashed from both sides.
a tip to pure sc2 fans just stay away from this forum because you're not going to change anyone's mind and all you're doing is stirring up shit. Well, the point of this thread was to never change anyone's minds. It was just about transitions in the game and it was a place for us to say "fuck this sucks". I have said this a lot of times, but honestly....just let us mourn in peace without coming in and saying "guys, it's okay. Let's be excited for SC2!" I don't understand why people would ever think that it's not stirring up a shitstorm by saying that.
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or misunderstood but that's pretty much exactly what I am saying. The " not changing anyone's mind " was directed at pure sc2 fans coming in here and trying to convince people to be accepting when It's not going to work. Go make a different thread in the sc2 forums where you can all post how happy you are to have Jaedong and Bisu playing sc2. Coming into the BW forums to say things like that is not going to be well received regardless of your intentions.
Just let the BW fans mourn their game without kicking them when they're down. For the record I'm sad too even though I like both games BW is just more fun to watch most of the time, hopefully it will change. ( And when we get a good game in sc2 it doesn't get ruined by a disconnect =/ )
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On April 17 2012 02:07 Terminal wrote:
So I'm a fan of BW and SC2 and of course I'm sad to see BW die just like everyone else, but I can accept it and easily move on to something with a similar premise that doesn't matter if it's a better game or not, it's good enough and it isn't stagnant, it's still going forwards and has a future, so I'm perfectly okay with seeing the new opportunities that come to it when the inevitable happens.
I'm also glad we get to filter out some of these narrow-minded elitists. yay
I like how people who have followed BW for so long and feel that one game is better than the other is categorized as a narrow minded elitist, while everyone else who just says "yeah I like both games" is suddenly in the right.
What if I said this:
On April 17 2012 02:07 Zergneedsfood wrote:
So I'm a fan of LoL and SC2 and of course I'm sad to see SC2 die just like everyone else, but I can accept it and easily move on to something with a similar premise that doesn't matter if it's a better game or not, it's good enough and it isn't stagnant, it's still going forwards and has a future, so I'm perfectly okay with seeing the new opportunities that come to it when the inevitable happens.
I'm also glad we get to filter out some of these narrow-minded elitists. yay
What would happen then I presume......hmmmm
On April 17 2012 02:09 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 01:56 Dodgin wrote:
I'm not sure why I keep coming back to read this thread, the arguments are so pointless and rehashed from both sides.
a tip to pure sc2 fans just stay away from this forum because you're not going to change anyone's mind and all you're doing is stirring up shit. Well, the point of this thread was to never change anyone's minds. It was just about transitions in the game and it was a place for us to say "fuck this sucks". I have said this a lot of times, but honestly....just let us mourn in peace without coming in and saying "guys, it's okay. Let's be excited for SC2!" I don't understand why people would ever think that it's not stirring up a shitstorm by saying that. I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or misunderstood but that's pretty much exactly what I am saying. The " not changing anyone's mind " was directed at pure sc2 fans coming in here and trying to convince people to be accepting when It's not going to work. Go make a different thread in the sc2 forums where you can all post how happy you are to have Jaedong and Bisu playing sc2. Coming into the BW forums to say things like that is not going to be well received regardless of your intentions. Just let the BW fans mourn their game without kicking them when they're down. For the record I'm sad too even though I like both games BW is just more fun to watch most of the time, hopefully it will change. ( And when we get a good game in sc2 it doesn't get ruined by a disconnect =/ )
T'was agreeing with you.
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Well one good thing came out of this thread I got to laugh at that :
On April 17 2012 02:07 Zergneedsfood wrote:
So I'm a fan of LoL and SC2 and of course I'm sad to see SC2 die just like everyone else, but I can accept it and easily move on to something with a similar premise that doesn't matter if it's a better game or not, it's good enough and it isn't stagnant, it's still going forwards and has a future, so I'm perfectly okay with seeing the new opportunities that come to it when the inevitable happens.
I'm also glad we get to filter out some of these narrow-minded elitists. yay
wpwp
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On April 17 2012 02:01 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 01:59 BlackGosu wrote:
The reason why most of you don't like sc2 is mainly the way battle.net is designed. The current design is just brutal for casual players. Even though BW is mechanically harder than sc2, it is far more welcoming than sc2 is. sc2 just makes people ragequit forever, not everyone has the mentality of a progamer. I laughed so hard at this.
?
which is why no one plays sc2 anymore?
look at the trend, koreans only play LoL. does that mean LoL is more balanced and higher skill ceiling than bw?
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I think there are design flaws that exist in SC2 right now and I have had my doubts about it here and there, but one thing has convinced me of it's viability as an eSport: MarineKingPrime.
MKP has been on a completely different level than any other pro recently. He's been on what one might call a "hot streak" for three weeks or a month now. His specialty is against Protoss in a time when Protoss is viewed as OP against Terran. His bio splitting is spectacular and well ahead of any other Terran I've seen (see his games in the recent GSTL finals against Parting).
MKP shows there is still a lot of room for growth in SC2 play, that he is pushing the skill ceiling higher than people thought possible, and his new-found consistency shows skill is rewarded handsomely in SC2.
All I'm saying is that I think SC2 is a worthy game worthy of great players. Enough good can't be said about BW, of course, but SC2 isn't as bad as some make it out to be.
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On April 17 2012 01:59 BlackGosu wrote:
The reason why most of you don't like sc2 is mainly the way battle.net is designed. The current design is just brutal for casual players. Even though BW is mechanically harder than sc2, it is far more welcoming than sc2 is. sc2 just makes people ragequit forever, not everyone has the mentality of a progamer.
I love it when some random guy tells me why i don't like something. I had no idea why i didn't like sc2, thanks for thinking in my place and telling me what i really want. And here i was thinking about gameplay 'n stuff, thank god you've got things figured out for me. You should work for activision.
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On April 17 2012 02:12 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 02:07 Terminal wrote:
So I'm a fan of BW and SC2 and of course I'm sad to see BW die just like everyone else, but I can accept it and easily move on to something with a similar premise that doesn't matter if it's a better game or not, it's good enough and it isn't stagnant, it's still going forwards and has a future, so I'm perfectly okay with seeing the new opportunities that come to it when the inevitable happens.
I'm also glad we get to filter out some of these narrow-minded elitists. yay I like how people who have followed BW for so long and feel that one game is better than the other is categorized as a narrow minded elitist, while everyone else who just says "yeah I like both games" is suddenly in the right. What if I said this: Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 02:07 Zergneedsfood wrote:
So I'm a fan of LoL and SC2 and of course I'm sad to see SC2 die just like everyone else, but I can accept it and easily move on to something with a similar premise that doesn't matter if it's a better game or not, it's good enough and it isn't stagnant, it's still going forwards and has a future, so I'm perfectly okay with seeing the new opportunities that come to it when the inevitable happens.
I'm also glad we get to filter out some of these narrow-minded elitists. yay What would happen then I presume......hmmmm
It's more directed towards the people actually bashing the game and the community rather than simply which game they prefer without even knowing what could eventually happen.
And the LoL thing is just dumb, there isn't a clear crossover between LoL and SC2 as there is BW and SC2, they're different genres. Though for arguments sake I certainly wouldn't be as pissed off as a lot of people here seem to be, I would wait and see what more LoL has to offer and who knows could eventually become one of the greatest things ever.
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I'm a bitter BW fan, and I hate it when SC2 fans come into the bw forums to hype up sc2 while we watch pro bw collapse.
We're about to lose a really close friend we've loved and spent years with, so let us mope and make snarky remarks about SC2 in peace, in the last corner of the site we have left after the SC2 invasion (this site used to be all about Brood War).
We have a right to complain about SC2 you know why? Because Broodwar didn't die a natural death. We were fine for a solid decade, and still going strong. Suddenly Blizzard comes along, makes a completely different game, slaps Starcraft on the label, markets the hell out of it, and creates a counterfeit to our pro leagues that draws away from our pool of players and potential recruits. For everything we liked about bw, there's a prettier, more accessible, hipper version, so naturally few will think about picking up playing or watching bw because it's outdated. Sponsors would never consider expanding pro bw because of this, and without sponsors pro bw dies, along with the playing community. This is tragic because I believe us bw fans have enjoyed playing and watching our game vastly more than SC2 players ever will, and they don't have a clue.
The most enraging thing about all this is...SC2 didn't earn its popularity. If it had been named differently, and Blizzard hadn't poured loads of money to milk the SC brand to jumpstart their own ESPORTS mantra, if then it had spontaneously developed its own system of leagues and sponsors, I wouldn't feel in the least bit offended. But they did, and I'm offended.
So SC2 guys,...
Stop talking up SC2: all of us have played it and concluded it's inferior.
Stop telling us to wait and hope it gets better: bw became big because we recognized its merit immediately
Stop licking your lips at our players in front of us: that adds insult to injury, intentional or not
Recognize that for your game to succeed we had to get screwed hard. Respect that fact, realize we're never going to see eye to eye, and go cheer for bw players switching back in the SC2 forums, where you can be safely ignored.
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On April 17 2012 01:58 Zergneedsfood wrote:
What? SC2 is exactly the reason why BW has been declining. Even though Savior had that massive scandal, BW has still had really strong periods until SC2 started sucking shit up. It's not a coincidence that since SC2's release, we've lost teams, channels, casters.
Actually, I disagree with this. I find it hard to believe that a game that isn't even in the top 10 of PC-bang statistics has been killing off a scene as large as Korean BW, especially considering how much of a non-factor GOMtv is in Korea compared to OGN or even MBC Game. Heck, legends like Boxer, Nada, and July were slumping so hard in 2010 that competitively, they were non-factors compared to giants like TBLS or even decent A-teamers. And I don't think it hurt BW that much to lose a few low-level A-teamers, B-teamers, and high-level amateurs. And I heard that GOM's Korean casters are inferior to the casters on OGN and MBC Game. And I'm sure that a large chunk of the Korean SC2 fanbase also double up as BW fans considering how hard it is to not be exposed to that game in Korea.
I wouldn't blame SC2 as the direct cause of BW's decline. Perhaps it's the indirect cause considering considering that the IP rights lawsuit was obviously tied with Blizzard trying to force the game into the scene, and that damaged the legitimacy of the scene. Match fixing scandal also happened to coincidentally happen several months before SC2's release, and I think it's exactly why it's so hard to find sponsors for tournaments and teams nowadays since it definitely scared off a lot of sponsors. Plus, BW player base has been in decline due to MMOs and LoL, and the rise in Kpop is competing with the same target audience.
SC2 hasn't sucked up the BW scene. If that were the case, then we would have seen a lot more high-profile sponsors and players and teams switch over to SC2 in the past couple years. But all the big-name, decently-performing BW players are still playing BW. The sponsors of the disbanded teams seemed to have left esports completely instead of switching to being SC2 sponsors. Heck, most SC2 teams are struggling to find sponsors of their own. MBC Game hasn't even touched SC2; they're now completely Kpop. Perhaps there are some sponsors who are holding back until KeSPA tries their hand at SC2, but I doubt things will still look good for BW if that SC2 experiment fails.
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eviltomahawk:
Yeah, you're right. Wasn't really thinking too hard about it. The Kpop argument really sold it to me actually (no sarcasm this time). *concede*
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EPT
