|
kamikami has a good idea - You'll probably get more enjoyment of the games (when watching) if you play the game too (whether BW or SC2).
On November 01 2011 06:07 Kroml. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 01:09 urashimakt wrote:On October 29 2011 21:20 Bleak wrote:On October 27 2011 00:23 Sephy90 wrote:On October 26 2011 20:36 ShadeR wrote:On October 26 2011 19:51 Kroml. wrote:
Can I ask core-BW fans a question? I really wonder it's answer, honestly...
I had been playing Starcraft and Brood War between 98 and 2004 and now I am in SC world again when I am 27. When I was young, playing Starcraft I didn't think too much into it, I just played. Now with a bigger internet world, shared ideas, "Nerfing and Buffing" terms created, the discussion of a game goes simply idiotic. Back in the day, when SC got dropship speed increase, we didnt say "buff" we said "wow look they changed the dropship speed, now there will be more use of this unit".
Anyway, there are so much useless discussion on SC2 forums, with "nerfing" "buffing" "whine" "cheese", and blaming blizzard, now with HotS announced with new units etc, ppl got 100x crazy on the forums...
So my question is, now you look at the past and how it worked out well for Brood War, and again look at SC2, having a special balance team to specifically balance the game etc, Do you think Brood War was kind of a freak accident, which came out from people who tried to make a good game, it was a game which came out of a well-thought process with many many tests? Because now we have a game with a balance team that can't do very well. If the incompetence comes from the team itself, where are the ppl that balanced brood war? Where is Bob Fitch?
And was Warcraft II used as a reference?
that's actually 3 questions :p sorry
***trivia about Bob Fitch : When the first version of the StarCraft engine was shown to the public, it was met with great critique. Because of the critique, Bob decided to rewrite the entire engine which he managed to do in just two months. This is just my opinion. Yes and no. I feel Blizzard back then were just trying to make an awesome game. Of course there were patches made with balance in mind but only until 1.08. So BW being balanced from Blizzards perspective is a complete freak accident (can't duplicate it). However from the Korean pro scenes perspective, balance was certainly not an accident. Maps. They meticulously balanced the game through the maps (I like to call this "soft balance" as opposed to "hard balance" which is what is occurring in SC2.), so things like rush distance, expo locations, number of expos, specific features like ramps, ridges all contributed to balancing BW. Your Bob Fitch trivia is interesting, especially considering Browders recent comments on ai pathing and LAN. Browder: no LAN would be a ton of work.... we would have to rebuild almost everything... To add a little something... Blizzard back then had different employees which they have now left Blizzard (I believe more than a few people left due to the fact that they didn't like where the company was going, please correct me if I'm wrong~ or add in a bit more). Although I kind of agree it was an accident with the balance. Also possibly a lot of the old crew that worked on BW is gone~ same thing with D2 crew. Blizzard North was closed down in I think 2007. Most of those guys, including Bill Roper, were active in the development of Starcraft. Bill Roper worked on Starcraft while a part of Blizzard Entertainment. Blizzard North made two games under that name: Diablo and Diablo II (including the Lord of Destruction). Before they were Blizzard North (under the name Condor), they made Justice League Task Force! Starcraft was created solely by Blizzard Entertainment with the lead designers being Chris Metzen and James Phinney. Starcraft: Brood War was worked on in tandem by Blizzard Entertainment and Saffire, a third party whom they outsourced campaign levels, art visuals, etc to. It was lead in design by Chris Metzen and Rob Pardo. Both Chris Metzen and Rob Pardo still work for Blizzard Entertainment, although I don't think Rob Pardo works on a level that has any contact with game development anymore. And since we all know Dustin Browder is the lead designer for SC2:WoL and SC2:HotS, Chris Metzen is probably involved in the story/campaign alone this time. They were a much smaller company back then and, honestly, I think most of what's become of Starcraft has been luck. It happened to be just the right game at just the right time to spark something more than other games by no intentional design of its creators. I mean Brood War was partially outsourced! why do you think Rob Pardo is not involved so much in the production of sc2? I ask you because you seem knowledgable about blizzard history.
I think it's because they made him work on Diablo III instead (and hired Browder for SC2). Or maybe WoW? I'm not sure but he must be doing something else atm >.>.
|
I am watching out for when the BW pro's play televised/streamed SC2 matches.
|
On November 01 2011 08:33 Aruno wrote:
I am watching out for when the BW pro's play televised/streamed SC2 matches.
incorporating SC2 in the BW PL might actually be a good thing now that you mention it, perfect time for a bathroom or snack break
|
United Kingdom16710 Posts
On November 01 2011 08:40 Ikonn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 08:33 Aruno wrote:
I am watching out for when the BW pro's play televised/streamed SC2 matches. incorporating SC2 in the BW PL might actually be a good thing now that you mention it, perfect time for a bathroom or snack break
Why do you feel the need to post things like this? Incite SC2 fans? Looking for some approval from BW ones?
|
On October 29 2011 12:34 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 09:42 aztrorisk wrote:On October 20 2011 13:59 ZeroCartin wrote:On October 20 2011 13:54 aztrorisk wrote:
I'm sorry, I love SC2 and I play SC2 more than BW (I'm not even a hard core BW fan) but I have to say, that I don't see SC2 becomething that popular in Korea because of the horrible unit designs. Especially the collosus. The horrible unit designs makes it less of an entertaining sport to watch than BW. Lol, so you're saying you dont see it becoming an entertaining sport cuz you dont like the design of some units? Well i must say, i think the scout on bw sucked ass, same with queen and valky, and that didnt stop bw from becoming huge. Your point is ridiculous. I point is ridiculous when we are talking about the collosus. Protoss death ball? Really. How entertaining can that be? At least seige tanks takes positioning skills. When you give such an important unit such a bad design, then it affects the overall sport. Queens and Valkyries are awesome. I guess he didn't see Flash's Valk opening, or ZerO's queen play to defeat terran mech.
yeah but collosi well played in synergies with other units can lead to some awesome situations:
- Collos with perfect forcefields is sick
- Collos with vortex is crazy (when you see them taking position around the vortex, waiting for the units to pop up...)
- Collos with mass recall is epic.
- Mind-controlled collos is a great game-twist too
Problem is that on the other side A-move collos with a bunch of stalkers works too well. 
This is where I would question the design indeed.
My point:
There is a potential in everything. The solution is not systematically "copy BW".
But will Blizzard find those ways to reveal the potential of their units?
Looking at what they are doing with banelings and hellions, I stay positive and think that there is hope.
|
On November 01 2011 08:48 Telcontar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 08:40 Ikonn wrote:On November 01 2011 08:33 Aruno wrote:
I am watching out for when the BW pro's play televised/streamed SC2 matches. incorporating SC2 in the BW PL might actually be a good thing now that you mention it, perfect time for a bathroom or snack break Why do you feel the need to post things like this? Incite SC2 fans? Looking for some approval from BW ones?
Don't go all voice of reason on me
|
On November 01 2011 08:32 Goldfish wrote:
kamikami has a good idea - You'll probably get more enjoyment of the games (when watching) if you play the game too (whether BW or SC2).
In fact after buying the game (after reading in the other thread that Bisu is practicing SC2) I played a bit. With a very very limited knowledge of SC2 units and 0 knowledge of BO/strategy/timing I decide to use BW strategies and it was hilarious lol. In PvT I don't use the "warp gate" feature at all and rally gateways like BW, and when I discover that Terran uses Bio against me I laughed lol (but seems like it's standard in SC2). The firebat is buffed and Terran now do annoying "firebat drop" vs protoss wtf lol ? And a 200/200 goon army die to 10-12 battlecruisers I couldn't even believe my eyes lol. But there's still that thing called "outmacro" and with that you can rape them to death no matter what they do and despite not knowing the game hehe. Also the scout now becomes a very strong unit that fire big laser beam wow. To sum it up for a BW player to play SC2 without having to learn the game is totally possible (athough you should intentionally lose all placement matchs to get to "bronze league" so that you can use BW strategy and still beat them lol, it's really not that bad if you don't care). If Bisu plays SC2 alongside BW next proleague I'll definitely watch both and learn from him.
|
On November 01 2011 06:07 Kroml. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 01:09 urashimakt wrote:On October 29 2011 21:20 Bleak wrote:On October 27 2011 00:23 Sephy90 wrote:On October 26 2011 20:36 ShadeR wrote:On October 26 2011 19:51 Kroml. wrote:
Can I ask core-BW fans a question? I really wonder it's answer, honestly...
I had been playing Starcraft and Brood War between 98 and 2004 and now I am in SC world again when I am 27. When I was young, playing Starcraft I didn't think too much into it, I just played. Now with a bigger internet world, shared ideas, "Nerfing and Buffing" terms created, the discussion of a game goes simply idiotic. Back in the day, when SC got dropship speed increase, we didnt say "buff" we said "wow look they changed the dropship speed, now there will be more use of this unit".
Anyway, there are so much useless discussion on SC2 forums, with "nerfing" "buffing" "whine" "cheese", and blaming blizzard, now with HotS announced with new units etc, ppl got 100x crazy on the forums...
So my question is, now you look at the past and how it worked out well for Brood War, and again look at SC2, having a special balance team to specifically balance the game etc, Do you think Brood War was kind of a freak accident, which came out from people who tried to make a good game, it was a game which came out of a well-thought process with many many tests? Because now we have a game with a balance team that can't do very well. If the incompetence comes from the team itself, where are the ppl that balanced brood war? Where is Bob Fitch?
And was Warcraft II used as a reference?
that's actually 3 questions :p sorry
***trivia about Bob Fitch : When the first version of the StarCraft engine was shown to the public, it was met with great critique. Because of the critique, Bob decided to rewrite the entire engine which he managed to do in just two months. This is just my opinion. Yes and no. I feel Blizzard back then were just trying to make an awesome game. Of course there were patches made with balance in mind but only until 1.08. So BW being balanced from Blizzards perspective is a complete freak accident (can't duplicate it). However from the Korean pro scenes perspective, balance was certainly not an accident. Maps. They meticulously balanced the game through the maps (I like to call this "soft balance" as opposed to "hard balance" which is what is occurring in SC2.), so things like rush distance, expo locations, number of expos, specific features like ramps, ridges all contributed to balancing BW. Your Bob Fitch trivia is interesting, especially considering Browders recent comments on ai pathing and LAN. Browder: no LAN would be a ton of work.... we would have to rebuild almost everything... To add a little something... Blizzard back then had different employees which they have now left Blizzard (I believe more than a few people left due to the fact that they didn't like where the company was going, please correct me if I'm wrong~ or add in a bit more). Although I kind of agree it was an accident with the balance. Also possibly a lot of the old crew that worked on BW is gone~ same thing with D2 crew. Blizzard North was closed down in I think 2007. Most of those guys, including Bill Roper, were active in the development of Starcraft. Bill Roper worked on Starcraft while a part of Blizzard Entertainment. Blizzard North made two games under that name: Diablo and Diablo II (including the Lord of Destruction). Before they were Blizzard North (under the name Condor), they made Justice League Task Force! Starcraft was created solely by Blizzard Entertainment with the lead designers being Chris Metzen and James Phinney. Starcraft: Brood War was worked on in tandem by Blizzard Entertainment and Saffire, a third party whom they outsourced campaign levels, art visuals, etc to. It was lead in design by Chris Metzen and Rob Pardo. Both Chris Metzen and Rob Pardo still work for Blizzard Entertainment, although I don't think Rob Pardo works on a level that has any contact with game development anymore. And since we all know Dustin Browder is the lead designer for SC2:WoL and SC2:HotS, Chris Metzen is probably involved in the story/campaign alone this time. They were a much smaller company back then and, honestly, I think most of what's become of Starcraft has been luck. It happened to be just the right game at just the right time to spark something more than other games by no intentional design of its creators. I mean Brood War was partially outsourced! why do you think Rob Pardo is not involved so much in the production of sc2? I ask you because you seem knowledgable about blizzard history.
He holds an executive position now. I don't pretend to know exactly what his obligations are, but his title is something like VP of Game Design. The guy in charge of game design on any given title is usually called lead design or lead developer and if he's a step or two above that I think he's probably more removed from the grunt work than he was originally. I imagine he sits in on a lot of meetings across all the games and talks.
|
Now, I'm pretty neutral on this subject personally, but I find it hilarious at the number of people posting shitty 1-5 word comments bashing BW. The people bashing SC2 aren't really any better tbh since the BW/SC2 debate has been discussed into completion already, but still it's like no one noticed it was the BW forum or something
"Yup I'm sure no one will get upset at this news its amazing huh? Oh it's in the forum for the dying out game? Nah still 100% good news"
The sad thing is most of the posters have several hundred to several thousand posts... o_O
On October 20 2011 02:50 villageidiot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:50 Steve_Jobs_did_911 wrote:
BW IS FINALLY DEAD!
THIS IS AMAZING! YAHOO! Im so happy too User was temp banned for this post.
On October 20 2011 02:51 Madbanana wrote:
LETS ALL WAIT FOR BLIZZCONNNN WOO CAN'T WAIT FOR THE DETAILS THERE
User was warned for this post
On October 20 2011 03:06 Draconicfire wrote:
Omgomgomgomgomgomg.
Sick sauce.
On October 20 2011 03:07 gustavohmp wrote:
Interesdasting
On October 20 2011 03:12 sergedelacalle wrote:
Let show go on!
On October 20 2011 03:41 bOOgyWC wrote:Aye...plz someone tell Flash that Protoss is the Uber Race in SC2 so that i can see him play it...but i fear a LOT of SC1 Pros will go for Terran...sad zealot is frightened!  User was warned for this post
On October 20 2011 03:51 NexUmbra wrote:
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOMG
This would make me the happiest guy evar !
User was warned for this post
On October 20 2011 04:01 sVnteen wrote:
OMG AWESOME
User was warned for this post
On October 20 2011 04:11 ShootingStars wrote:
OMFG. :D
User was temp banned for this post.
On October 20 2011 04:31 ReaperX wrote:
yes, yes, yes.
User was warned for this post
On October 20 2011 04:29 FILM wrote:
GET HYPE.
User was warned for this post
On October 20 2011 05:40 Veclada wrote:![[image loading]](http://s3-ak.buzzfed.com/static/imagebuzz/web04/2009/10/15/19/fuck-yes-words-cannot-express-my-joy-only-423-1255650862-14.jpg) ME RIGHHT NAW User was temp banned for this post.
On October 20 2011 05:57 Midgetman101 wrote:
YAY! :D
User was warned for this post
Didn't want to go past 25 pages lol
|
On November 01 2011 09:26 Geovu wrote:Now, I'm pretty neutral on this subject personally, but I find it hilarious at the number of people posting shitty 1-5 word comments bashing BW. The people bashing SC2 aren't really any better tbh since the BW/SC2 debate has been discussed into completion already, but still it's like no one noticed it was the BW forum or something "Yup I'm sure no one will get upset at this news its amazing huh? Oh it's in the forum for the dying out game? Nah still 100% good news" The sad thing is most of the posters have several hundred to several thousand posts... o_O Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:50 villageidiot wrote:On October 20 2011 02:50 Steve_Jobs_did_911 wrote:
BW IS FINALLY DEAD!
THIS IS AMAZING! YAHOO! Im so happy too User was temp banned for this post. Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:51 Madbanana wrote:
LETS ALL WAIT FOR BLIZZCONNNN WOO CAN'T WAIT FOR THE DETAILS THERE
User was warned for this post Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 03:41 bOOgyWC wrote:Aye...plz someone tell Flash that Protoss is the Uber Race in SC2 so that i can see him play it...but i fear a LOT of SC1 Pros will go for Terran...sad zealot is frightened! User was warned for this post Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 03:51 NexUmbra wrote:
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOMG
This would make me the happiest guy evar !
User was warned for this post Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 04:01 sVnteen wrote:
OMG AWESOME
User was warned for this post Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 04:11 ShootingStars wrote:
OMFG. :D
User was temp banned for this post. Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 04:31 ReaperX wrote:
yes, yes, yes.
User was warned for this post Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:40 Veclada wrote: ME RIGHHT NAW User was temp banned for this post. Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:57 Midgetman101 wrote:
YAY! :D
User was warned for this post Didn't want to go past 25 pages lol
It's a shame because it can be difficult hard to tell the people who are genuinely happy about the BW-SC2 transition and simply expressing excitement over new talent (100% ok imo), and those who are just trying to make BW fans angry.
|
Seems like this season is last chance of jaedong&flash for breaking NaDa record.
|
Only a matter of time before the BW scene is fully integrated into the SC2 scene. I'm hopeful everything can work itself out but I have my doubts. Kespa has its own agenda and not necessarily that of E-Sports on a global scale.
Could be a lot of trouble between the SC2 scene in Korea as it exists now, and what happens when Kespa gets involved.
|
On November 01 2011 09:08 Ikonn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 08:48 Telcontar wrote:On November 01 2011 08:40 Ikonn wrote:On November 01 2011 08:33 Aruno wrote:
I am watching out for when the BW pro's play televised/streamed SC2 matches. incorporating SC2 in the BW PL might actually be a good thing now that you mention it, perfect time for a bathroom or snack break Why do you feel the need to post things like this? Incite SC2 fans? Looking for some approval from BW ones? Don't go all voice of reason on me
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=281147
I don't think what you are doing is helping the situation right now...
You might not like it but please don't post something that is inflammatory to people who care for the scene, if you want other people to respect the BW community.
|
On November 01 2011 10:17 mlspmatt wrote:
Only a matter of time before the BW scene is fully integrated into the SC2 scene. I'm hopeful everything can work itself out but I have my doubts. Kespa has its own agenda and not necessarily that of E-Sports on a global scale.
What you just wrote reads to me like this...
"Wow, nice infrastructure you got there with the teams and tournaments and everything. Would you mind rolling over and dying so we can have it instead? You know, for the sake of ESPORTS? Because it's good for ESPORTS if only one game is ever played. [The newest one, obviously. I can't wait to upgrade to SC3!]"
......
"E-Sports" can go jump in a lake, I'm sorry. This nonsense never ends. Maybe I should stop reading threads, and just wait for proleague to come back... if I can still recognize it. 
|
On November 01 2011 08:48 Telcontar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 08:40 Ikonn wrote:On November 01 2011 08:33 Aruno wrote:
I am watching out for when the BW pro's play televised/streamed SC2 matches. incorporating SC2 in the BW PL might actually be a good thing now that you mention it, perfect time for a bathroom or snack break Why do you feel the need to post things like this? Incite SC2 fans? Looking for some approval from BW ones?
actually it's true, sometimes BW games can drag on for awhile and leave you exhausted. an extended break would be really nice.
|
On November 01 2011 11:33 whatusername wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 08:48 Telcontar wrote:On November 01 2011 08:40 Ikonn wrote:On November 01 2011 08:33 Aruno wrote:
I am watching out for when the BW pro's play televised/streamed SC2 matches. incorporating SC2 in the BW PL might actually be a good thing now that you mention it, perfect time for a bathroom or snack break Why do you feel the need to post things like this? Incite SC2 fans? Looking for some approval from BW ones? actually it's true, sometimes BW games can drag on for awhile and leave you exhausted. an extended break would be really nice.
Nonsense, just complete fantasy.
|
On November 01 2011 11:34 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 11:33 whatusername wrote:On November 01 2011 08:48 Telcontar wrote:On November 01 2011 08:40 Ikonn wrote:On November 01 2011 08:33 Aruno wrote:
I am watching out for when the BW pro's play televised/streamed SC2 matches. incorporating SC2 in the BW PL might actually be a good thing now that you mention it, perfect time for a bathroom or snack break Why do you feel the need to post things like this? Incite SC2 fans? Looking for some approval from BW ones? actually it's true, sometimes BW games can drag on for awhile and leave you exhausted. an extended break would be really nice. Nonsense, just complete fantasy.
Have you tried playing a bo5 continuously (on a high level) to make that statement?
|
On November 01 2011 08:40 Ikonn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 08:33 Aruno wrote:
I am watching out for when the BW pro's play televised/streamed SC2 matches. incorporating SC2 in the BW PL might actually be a good thing now that you mention it, perfect time for a bathroom or snack break
thats a loooooooooong bathroom break. What are you really doing in there? 
|
On November 01 2011 11:33 whatusername wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 08:48 Telcontar wrote:On November 01 2011 08:40 Ikonn wrote:On November 01 2011 08:33 Aruno wrote:
I am watching out for when the BW pro's play televised/streamed SC2 matches. incorporating SC2 in the BW PL might actually be a good thing now that you mention it, perfect time for a bathroom or snack break Why do you feel the need to post things like this? Incite SC2 fans? Looking for some approval from BW ones? actually it's true, sometimes BW games can drag on for awhile and leave you exhausted. an extended break would be really nice.
yes, but that is probably not what is originally meant by "incorporating SC2"
|
On November 01 2011 09:26 Geovu wrote:Now, I'm pretty neutral on this subject personally, but I find it hilarious at the number of people posting shitty 1-5 word comments bashing BW. The people bashing SC2 aren't really any better tbh since the BW/SC2 debate has been discussed into completion already, but still it's like no one noticed it was the BW forum or something "Yup I'm sure no one will get upset at this news its amazing huh? Oh it's in the forum for the dying out game? Nah still 100% good news" The sad thing is most of the posters have several hundred to several thousand posts... o_O Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:50 villageidiot wrote:On October 20 2011 02:50 Steve_Jobs_did_911 wrote:
BW IS FINALLY DEAD!
THIS IS AMAZING! YAHOO! Im so happy too User was temp banned for this post. Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:51 Madbanana wrote:
LETS ALL WAIT FOR BLIZZCONNNN WOO CAN'T WAIT FOR THE DETAILS THERE
User was warned for this post Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 03:41 bOOgyWC wrote:Aye...plz someone tell Flash that Protoss is the Uber Race in SC2 so that i can see him play it...but i fear a LOT of SC1 Pros will go for Terran...sad zealot is frightened! User was warned for this post Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 03:51 NexUmbra wrote:
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOMG
This would make me the happiest guy evar !
User was warned for this post Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 04:01 sVnteen wrote:
OMG AWESOME
User was warned for this post Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 04:11 ShootingStars wrote:
OMFG. :D
User was temp banned for this post. Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 04:31 ReaperX wrote:
yes, yes, yes.
User was warned for this post Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:40 Veclada wrote: ME RIGHHT NAW User was temp banned for this post. Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:57 Midgetman101 wrote:
YAY! :D
User was warned for this post Didn't want to go past 25 pages lol
I don't think i have ever seen those people you quoted around (most of them anyway).. I ll bet that they are the SC2 people that are active in their forums. (reason for the relatively high post count)
That said, i haven't been frequenting the forums much.. Been just idly waiting for Brood War to come around the corner, reading any Bisu-related news, and that's about it. I do not know much about all this fiasco, but i hope that my Brood War Proleague comes back safely in one piece.
That said, anyone has any news of scheduling or whatever for the new Proleague season? Not having any news and we already being in November worries me a little.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
